Question On Tactics

[banjo]

I took some minor critisizm in a previous thread for my tactic of sinking all the escorts and then the merchants. This tactic was deemed 'unrealistic'. Probably true in RL but works like a charm in this game. I routinely sink all the ships in a convoy. I am awarded MOH after MOH and sink dozens of tons on most patrols, all without having a single depth charge dropped on me (with one exception--see other thread). However, it has become kind of routine now.
My problem is I am always, always detected by the escorts. Even tho I turn radar off as soon as I have determined convoy course, and even tho I submerge miles ahead of the convoy, way ahead of any visual contact, and even tho I lie silent with periscope down, tracking the convoy by sound, and even tho I park 2000 yards outside of the path on the nearest escort, I am always detected. Hence my tactic. I never have any choice.
So--my question--how do some of you other experienced skippers get close enough to sink some ships and yet not get detected, particularly late in the war?

Thanks.

I am playing TM 1.6.4

[pythos]

If it is a convoy I always attempt an end run attack. The enemy has radar and will pick you up if you get too close, even if you turn your set off. I do my best to stay outside the enormous visual range the AI has in TM. Unlike RL where subs tracked convoys by tracking the course of the smoke stacks, and smoke, SH4 you have to see the target's upper hull. When you do this, the eagle eyed spotters will see you, unless you are just on the edge of not seeing them (crazy I know, very hard, I know as well).

In SH4 Active sonar does not work correctly. It is my understanding Active was not used unless there was a reason. While cruising along at 9 to 12 knots, passive and active sonars were nigh on useless. But in SH4 the active seems to continously go off, and if you are in the cone, you are detected most likely.

Stay at least .2 NM outside the track of the nearest escort. As he passes your position, creep in at no more than 3 knots. Try to get deep inside the convoy, and hit the second line of ships, and dive deep.

Variations of this tactic seem to work for me. There are times I have gotten detected, and I end up diving deep and becoming a hole in the water.

Others may be able to explain tactics better than I can. I just do what seems most appropriate, and have a difficult time explaining what I do.

Good luck

[banjo]

Thanks. That's helpful.

[Powerthighs]

One other thing, try not to present a broadside target towards a destroyer. they will magically know that and start pinging you. Keeping your nose or tal pointed towards the destroyer makes a big difference in getting detected or not.

[banjo]

Right. I try to do that too. Thanks.

[AVGWarhawk]

Go below the thermal layer ahead of the convoy. All stop. Once the lead DD passes over head, go to periscope depth. You are probably like me and just must have the periscope all the time looking over the targets. This is what gets you and me spotted. Learn to depend on your sonar so you can stay down and out of sight of the lead DD. Once his butt has passed get ready to do some fast solutions. Usually I just ping the target for range and make best estimate on speed....normally you are so close and there is just a huge wall of ships in front of your tubes that you will hit something!

[banjo]

Thanks AVG

[seafarer]

Yeah, I'd say the key tricks are silent running, approach from depth (below thermocline), and exercise strict periscope control when you do come up (pop the 'scope up for quick looks/short periods, then get it back down pronto).

I always try to move in from the flanks too - that is ahead of the convoy, but well displaced from their base course projection line.

[rrmelend]

I took some minor critisizm in a previous thread for my tactic of sinking all the escorts and then the merchants. This tactic was deemed 'unrealistic'.

First of all, who cares what other people say about how you play a game. If this was real life none of us would even be here because we'd all be "Overdue and presumed lost". None of us has had anywhere near enough training to believe otherwise.

As far as tactics though I think you have some good advice from people so far. Personally I think I am closest to AVGWarhawk. I like to get in front of the convoys and go deep and quiet, let the first escort(s) pass overhead and then head to periscope depth and try to get off a few shots at 2, posibbly 3 targets before going deep to reload and maybe get in another few shots. I think seafarer said it very nicely as well.
My best advice, just have fun with whatever you choose.

[AVGWarhawk]

If this was real life none of us would even be here because we'd all be "Overdue and presumed lost". None of us has had anywhere near enough training to believe otherwise.

:rotfl::rotfl:

Got a good chuckle from that one and probably the truth!

[CaptainHaplo]

Pythos indicated that SH4 models active sonar incorrectly - that its always "on". Actually this is a correct setting for the Imperial Navy - they more often than not were constantly pinging - the thought being that the pinging would run off or find an attacking sub. Historically - many convoys were found and tracked BECAUSE the active sonar could be heard father away than the merchant screws could be. This is one reason you may be getting "caught". If your in the cone - your going to get found. Its also why diving deep and being a hole in the water is a good tactic - depth often equals a layer in SH4 - which helps tremendously in shielding you from sonar.

It should be noted that standard Allied doctrine was to use active sonar ONLY when searching for or attacking a target - so Pythos was not "wrong". Different navies used different doctrines.

Now - I am going to likely catch it here for this "tactic" - but I often turn broadside to a convoy from one side or the other of the base course - then fire a shell at the lead escort - as soon as he "spots" me - turn end on and hit the gas - end on he will often lose sight of you (especially at night) and then you head back at a 90 angle and intercept the convoy. Sure they are zigzagging - but if you time it right - you can get in close and get off a few shots while the escorts pour on the coal just to get back to the sheep they left partially unguarded. Note - you wont pull all the escorts off doing this (unless its really lightly guarded) - but with the increase in "loiter/search" time - you have a shot of opening up a seam inthe screen that you can penetrate or exploit. Getting IN is the hard part - once your shots are away its dive deep and go slow and pray.

[banjo]

Thanks Haplo. That is an interesting tactic. I'll try it next convoy.

[Roger Dodger]

I ran into a large convoy (RADAR) last night consisting of eight heavies (including two tankers) and four DD escorts. They were heading south on the western side of Luzon (Philippines), and I was just west of the passage from the South China Sea into the Sulu Sea. I was in a great spot for an ambush; right where they would have to make their turn into the passage. I guesstimated a good attack position, made it there (on surface), then went to periscope depth, all stop and silent running. (please keep in mind that I use auto-targeting, simulating a good attack team, and I'm math impaired)

I took a periscope peek at 5600 yds on the lead DD, locked the PK, down scope, and waited. Watching the attack map position keeper, I saw the lead escort pass my bow at about 4000 yards. As soon as he passed, I scoped out the convoy for the best shooting solution. Set all bow torpedoes at 12', slow speed.

The nearest heavy passed my bow at about 4500 yards, locked target and fired tubes one and two. Lined up 2nd target, locked and fired tubes 3 and 4. Lined up 3rd target, locked and fired tubes 5 and 6.

Down scope, set dive planes for steep dive (at STOP). At 100', made for hard left rudder and 1/3 ahead (still at silent running).

WHAM! WHAM!
. . .
WHAM! WHAM!
. . .
WHAM! . . .

There's two tankersfull of avgas and a lot of ammunition Tojo ain't gonna get to use.

By the time the escorts figured out they were under attack, I was long gone. They dropped a lot of DC where they thought I was, but never really got a contact on me. Much later, I came back to periscope depth (just floated back at all stop at 100'). The rotten dogs had left a subchaser behind, just for me. He, too, was at all stop and silent running. Back to the depths. After a long while, that third heavy finally sank, the subchaser took off after the convoy, and I followed hoping to get in another shot. No such luck, though.

Long shots can be profitable as long as your target(s) are fairly slow, and not zig-zagging. Since they just came off their turn into the passage, I assumed they would hold their course long enough for a six minute torpedo run. Its also handy to have a good attack team!

[SteminDemon13]

Through My Career I have been trying different approaches. As warhawk has said, going below the thermal layer and waiting for that can to pass works well, and is one I have been using. I keep my scope down as much as possible and pop it up for quick peeks to see what is going on. I used to leave it up, but it draws way too much attention.
One very interesting patrol I was running low on batteries after a photo recon mission. It was either try and recharge the batteries or go nowhere. My only problem was this pesky sub chaser that was on me like white on rice. I waited till night time so the chance of an air attck was nil, I emergency surfaced, hoped on the 40 MM and started shooting until I was able to hop on the deck gun. I manned up the deck gun and started pounding the sub chaser who was coming head on. I destroyed his bow mount (he did get a hit on me prior), his stack was blown off and the ship was then destroyed and headed to davey jones's locker. I never use the surface and fight tactic (the only time I will surface would be for the lone merchant who I can shoot at long distance if the fish attack went unsucessful), but this time It was my only option and the battle was filled with so much suspense. After the sub chaser was destroyed I let out a cheerful yell and was overwhelmed with joy and relief.
My work however was not finished and I set a small perimeter out of the range of the ships and sailed around until I had just enough battrey to high tail out of there.....well not high tail, more like 1 KT. The trip was extemely long but worth it as the USS Balao and her crew would live to fight another day:D .
Everyone has their own tactics, many share similar ones. Use them as you please and learn from others success and failure, as not knowing of ones failures can cheat you of valuable knowlege.

[Captain Vlad]

Don't overlook the good ol' nighttime surface attack...at least on the unmodded game. Gotta be a good judge of the light and such, but if the conditions are right, I've made it inside a convoy more than once.

If there's no escort bringing up the rear, for example, you can sometimes creep up on the convoy from behind, fire off a spread of fish, then run like hell, with the convoy between you and the DD's.

Submerged attacks, I tend to use Warhawk's method. Additionally, if you're playing on manual targetting, I find it helps to get so close to a target that doing all the data gathering stuff is unneccesary.;)

[banjo]

Thanks all. Interesting stuff--very helpful.

[jazman]

I took some minor critisizm in a previous thread for my tactic of sinking all the escorts and then the merchants. This tactic was deemed 'unrealistic'.

First of all, who cares what other people say about how you play a game. If this was real life none of us would even be here because we'd all be "Overdue and presumed lost". None of us has had anywhere near enough training to believe otherwise.


I'll stand up and say the unAmerican thing: I do care what others say. I'm playing this game not just in the interest of becoming a Godzilla Sub Ace, but also to try to get a small flavor of the sub war. There's a historical interest. So if anyone can come along and talk about what's historical and realistic, my ears perk up. If the game fails the test in some areas, that's not useless knowledge. If my play fails the test, I want to know. I'll admit I'm a bit of a snob about the whole thing. I suspect others just go about making mods, and I thank them.

[rrmelend]

So if anyone can come along and talk about what's historical and realistic, my ears perk up.

Don't wait for someone to tell you what was historically accurate, check out some of the books other members have mentioned. Check out this thread for some great suggestions on books to read, that way you will know for yourself what real historical tactics were used. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=124037 These books can give you a much better feel of what the submarine war was really like as opposed to playing this game (granted it is a very awesome game especially thanks to people like Ducimus, leovampire, lurker_hlb3 and all the other awesome modders out there).

[jazman]

So if anyone can come along and talk about what's historical and realistic, my ears perk up.

Don't wait for someone to tell you what was historically accurate, check out some of the books other members have mentioned.
Thanks, I've been doing that. I'm not relying on this game to show me what's real, but it's a useful tool to discuss and explore this or that aspect. In fact, the game can be used to show me what's not real, if pointed out. But I wouldn't presume to be the expert, and I like to absorb the expertise of others who have done hard work themselves. Their comments on this game are very useful.

By the way, I'm reading O'Kane's Wahoo right now, and Silent Victory, and I've got a list of others in line.

[Sailor Steve]

First of all, who cares what other people say about how you play a game.
My best advice, just have fun with whatever you choose.
I was the author of the aforementioned criticizm, and I'll start by agreeing with rrmelend: the idea of the game is to have fun first. Whether it's trying to recreate the historical tactics or just shooting at something, it's still a game.

If I respond negatively to banjo's or anybody else's post, or start on a 'realistic' binge, it's almost always because of percieved (on my part) boasting. I get started when someone gives advice on how to get 500,000 tons in one patrol, or accomplish some other impossible-in-real-life task, because I'm always thinking in terms of the most believable experience, not being Super Sub Skipper successful.

I admit that that's just me, and I don't mean to be down on anybody. My fault, and I apologize.

As for advice on how to do it correctly, well, being broadside to the convoy shouldn't make them automatically detect you, but if it does then I'm all out of ideas. But do like they said, read all the books, and the manuals, and you should be fine.

[rrmelend]

Just don't read the game manual because you'll just be doing this: :damn: I also agree with Sailor Steve, just because you are broadside should not get you detected automatically. I think I've approached convoys from all different angles and I don't really recall if any one angle is "better" than another personally. I've had my share of successes and also lost my boat and crew from many different approaches.

Jazman, you picked a couple awesome books to start with. Wahoo is highly enjoyable and for me personally an easy read, and as everybody says Silent Victory is almost like the Bible when it comes to the Pacific Submarine war.

[SnowCajun]

So--my question--how do some of you other experienced skippers get close enough to sink some ships and yet not get detected, particularly late in the war?
What I do is get ahead of the convoy, submerge as deep as I can, at least get under a temperature gradient, and then wait for that lead escort to pass by me. I'll come up to periscope level, the other escorts are usually off to the sides or behind the convoy, and go to town shooting the convoy before the escorts have time to react. That's my strategy. Also I keep my torpedoes running deeper than default, 13' to 14' deep and don't shoot at small ships, only medium or large!

SnowCajun

[Roger Dodger]

You might be interested in the OFFICIAL Tactics Manual. Must have been pretty good since it was published in 1917 and not declassified until 1972. :lol: Contains some diagrams. Follow the link below. I'll also post this under its own heading here and at the UBI Forum. I'm sure others will be interested.

O. N. I. Publication No. 23

[formerly] CONFIDENTIAL [Declassified
OP09BH 17 Aug 72]

REMARKS
ON SUBMARINE TACTICS
AGAINST
CONVOYS

NAVY DEPARTMENT
OFFICE OF NAVAL INTELLIGENCE
DECEMBER, 1917

WASHINGTON
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
1917

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/onipubno23.htm