Manual TDC experts, how often do you sink multiple targets?

[letterboy1]

Well, I'm only beginning to practice manual TDC (and enjoying it) and I'm getting to understand the effort involved in gathering target data by stadimeter, sonar, and mark one eyeball. So, with all that effort put into getting a solution on one target, how successful are you at setting up a second target once they are alerted and zig-zagging? Do you even bother or do you just go into point-and-shoot mode? And how successful were real-life WW2 sub commanders at accomplishing this?

Thanks.

[jdkbph]

Well, I'm only beginning to practice manual TDC (and enjoying it) and I'm getting to understand the effort involved in gathering target data by stadimeter, sonar, and mark one eyeball. So, with all that effort put into getting a solution on one target, how successful are you at setting up a second target once they are alerted and zig-zagging? Do you even bother or do you just go into point-and-shoot mode? And how successful were real-life WW2 sub commanders at accomplishing this?

Thanks.
Once they start manoeuvring, it's very difficult. Shoot at the target farthest away first. The idea being that you want the torpedoes to hit the targets as close to the same time as you can get.

JD

[Rockin Robbins]

In RL it was just as difficult. One of the disadvantages of the standard attack method is that gathering all that accurate data IS so time consuming and has to be done in a rush just before firing.

I and some colleagues have fine-tuned a different attack method we call the Dick O'Kane attack method after finding that he actually used a similar tactic. It allows you to set up all your parameters at least 20 minutes in advance so all you are worried about is boat positioning before you fire. With it, you have a much greater chance of taking out multiple targets. See our seminar in WernerSobe's Advanced School of Submarine Attack Tactics (WASSAT) http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=652326&postcount=67. Some people knew that was coming.:rotfl:

What we've done is steal some U-Boat targeting practices and adapt them to the American submarine. It doesn't hurt that this can be historically justified by the fact that Dick O'Kane did the same thing.

As a bonus, in shooting at a single target the Dick O'Kane method allows you to individually aim each torpedo for a perfectly chosen spot on the target. No more guessing how many degrees to make the spread and still not knowing where the shots will hit. You can aim just below the second turret and hit your target precisely there.

[AVGWarhawk]

I have hit multiple targets. If you have the speed down pat and AOB solution on target you can hit multiple targets...meaning 2-3 vessels. I send out my first two torps and unlock, lock on the next target. I get the range quickly and fire. The faster you do this the better chance the targets have not changed direction enough to screw up your solution. For convoys expect to nail 2-3 ships. Make the end round and start again.

The TDC we have in the game is basically what you see on the real boat. The TDC is a bit more advanced then what we are using.

[missleman01]

Actually, last night I ran into a small convoy of about 6 ships near the Celebes Sea. I found two medium sized freighters mixed in with some other ships in roughly two rows of three.

I targeted the lead medium freight and set of a 3 torp spread around it (a small freighter was in line with it in the row in front of it) with less than 1 deg variation on either side.

I then shot, quickly locked the other freighter (same mast data and speed) adjusted AOB, took stadimeter range and put a three torp spread around it.

Managed to hit four ships because of the row arrangement and spread.

I got one torp into each of the two lead ships (one missed) and nailed all three torps into the other pair farther back (1 and 2 torps respectively into first row and far row)

They all sank, unfortunately I had to dive a while after the last salvo because an escort got curious and I only got credit for the two I watched sink in the scope.

I was in a balao and went real deep, got out without a scratch.

[captiandon]

On this last Patrol which is the first with this Boat I had a lucky hit. I targeted a Medium Modern Tanker and off to his port was a NTLE which is a 18000 ton Tanker, Very large target. I fired three fish at the first One was a dud and the other two hit. I then took another range bering on the Medium tanker and fired a fourth. I Missed as it ran just ahead of him. As I was watching him and wondering if another hit would be worth it that miss hit the NTLE right ahead of the Engine room possably right on the Bulkhead. I watched him break in half as he raised out of the water. He exploaded and was on fire from one end to the other. I then set myself up for a rear shot on the medium Tanker and hit him a third time. The only Escort had come to a compleat stop as I caught him off guard. He sat there for about 15 min before he turned back to look for me. By that time I had gone deep and began moving away. I was able to sink two ships but like most times the second hit was by luck. However on another Career I did sink a tanker then turned and quickly got a few shots off on a Light Crusier before I was driven deep. You have to be quick about it and get your shots off asap.

[captiandon]

I also have tryed Fireing on the farthest target first then quickly getting a closer target. I had them timed right so that they were hit at the same time In RL that may make the Escorts think there is more then one sub in the area as well.

[fvd]

Hi,

If it turns out i have not much time to to get good TDC data i sometimes choose to attack the largest vessel only with torpedo's, right after the torps hit i surface and finish the other ship with the deck gun.
If you have more time and circumstances are good, you can get solutions for both ships and sink 'em both with torps.

It all depends on the situation (which varies quickly with Trigger_Maru i've noticed).

Good hunting,
fvd

[Steeltrap]

It's interesting to me that O'Kane followed a method (actually it was Moreton starting it on Wahoo) that, in essence, turns the USA TDC into a German fire control method i.e. disable the PK and 'tell' the TDC where the target is such that the torps will go where the scope is pointed. Clearly O'Kane felt this was the best way to go, and his hit rate and rate of sinkings (1 ship per 11.5 days of patrol - twice as good as the next ranked boat in this measure) indicate he was probably correct.

It's true the USA's TDC was the most advanced, but interesting that this doesn't necessarily translate to superior performance in the field. O'Kane seems to have used its advanced capabilities to develop firing data (PK and angle-solver capacity very good for that), but then 'disabled' it when it came to the actual firing. Intriguing!

[Ducimus]

>>how successful are you at setting up a second target once they are alerted and zig-zagging?

After the fireworks begin, i dont even bother. I try to avoid that siutation by timing my shots as well as i can so all my salvo's hit around the same time.

[Rockin Robbins]

It's interesting to me that O'Kane followed a method (actually it was Moreton starting it on Wahoo) that, in essence, turns the USA TDC into a German fire control method i.e. disable the PK and 'tell' the TDC where the target is such that the torps will go where the scope is pointed. Clearly O'Kane felt this was the best way to go, and his hit rate and rate of sinkings (1 ship per 11.5 days of patrol - twice as good as the next ranked boat in this measure) indicate he was probably correct.

It's true the USA's TDC was the most advanced, but interesting that this doesn't necessarily translate to superior performance in the field. O'Kane seems to have used its advanced capabilities to develop firing data (PK and angle-solver capacity very good for that), but then 'disabled' it when it came to the actual firing. Intriguing!
O'Kane had the advantage that he survived the war:up: and was Plato to Morton's Socrates. Everything we know about Morton (except for Forrest Stirling's "Wake of the Wahoo") comes from O'Kane. Both of those guys were TDC wizards. Don't think that they perverted and short-circuited its use sometimes because they didn't have the ability or desire to use it the way they were trained. They used it "right" lots of times, and were considered the best in the fleet.

Their genius was that they studied the careers and methods of the U-Boat skippers and sought to understand alternate methods of submarine operation. Morton was a real hothead and would rush into any situation. O'Kane kept his head screwed on straight and kept Morton (and the rest of the crew:p) alive until they were separated. They realized that tactics must change to meet situations, not the other way around.

I'm finding that I can use his technique to aim the torpedoes and set up the angles in the TDC a half hour before the action. Unlike the U-Boat tactic the torpedoes DO NOT go where the periscope is aimed. You aim the torpedoes ahead of time for a chosen bearing and then look all over the place without ruining your shot. When I get close all I'm concerned about is the target's speed and course, helpfully provided by radar before I ever see him. Then I can play poker for a half hour, look up and shoot. Ho hum! Another unfortunate accident for a Sorry Maru.

I should make another tutorial with my newest wrinkles, but even though I blew the attack on the existing tutorial and shot 10º too soon, I still hit the exact spots on the target ship that I aimed for. That didn't stop aaronblood from tearing my technique apart in a PM, and he was right. That means more precision would be wasted. I just like to be precise even when it means nothing. Not a fatal defect.

And really that's the advantage of the O'Kane method. It allows for a wide margin of error. Conventional targeting demands much more precision to get hits. O'Kane's hit ratio proves that once and for all.

[ben cg]

If conditions are favourable (calm seas, merchants in line, time to setup etc) then occaisonally I manage to send 2 salvos; one at low speed and then one at high speed which hit within seconds of eachother. When its happened its been 2 x3 from a 6 torp boat but just once I managed to send the 3 I had left in front and spun around and got off 4 from the stern and timed it right :). This only worked because they were unescorted and I could spin round fast but I was very happy with it.

More usually though I hit one or two without moving then dive deep and only hit slow forward once I am below the thermal layer (If there is a thermal layer I reckon I can pretty much always dodge escorts). If there are no escorts or any warships are a good mile or two away I might pop up for a peek and if there is a merchant weaving very close (within 1000yds) then it is worth having a go imo. I set the pk up so that it is at an estimate of where it will be taking into account the weaving (basically a median line along the middle of its course at about 70% of its real speed) and pray - unsurprisingly this only works at close ranges. I might have to give the O'Kane method described above a go though :hmm:

[Chock]

I generally try and set shots up so they will hit two or three targets at different ranges at pretty much the same time, this is to avoid the problems with alerted targets zig-zagging. If I can manage it, I'll try and rig it so that the shots overlap on lagging targets that are more distant too, so that there's another chance if I miss. After that, I'll rarely try and go for things when they are alerted, as it just wastes torpedoes on what will always be a bit of a 'Hail Mary pass'. So the tricky part is getting the attack all set up and pulling it off. But when it works, it's very gratifying.

You may want to use something I find handy to work it all out:

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=32b0d059-b53a-4dc9-8265-da47f157c091&displaylang=en

This calculator can convert speeds, ranges, distances and all kinds of useful stuff, everything from nautical miles to meters, and inches to light years. It's great for timing distance traveled so all your shots arrive simultaneously.

:D Chock