dubbya bush you really know how to support war vets...

[elite_hunter_sh3]

http://i.today.reuters.com/pictures/galleries/Stories/633301636399843750/Previews/08.JPG


:roll::nope::nope::nope: (what a boob :roll:)

ONLY A ******* SHIRT!??????!! the least he could have gotten him was free treatment for his wounds and plastic surgury to fix as much as possible... :nope:

i feel sorry for the wounded soldier who is scarred for like :cry:

[baggygreen]

Do you know for sure that he hasnt received anything extra? I dont.

A picture might be worth 1000 words, but those 1000 words could be drastically different depending on who is reading them.

[Chock]

The chances are that the person GWB was being photographed with had been 'vetted' prior to the visit, being asked about his views and stuff like that, the President doesn't just turn up and chance meeting someone who might give him a load of verbal, so there could well be some kind of freebie going on with him or something similar of that nature. Anyone who has ever been in the military will know that's what happens whenever a big name gets shown around to 'kiss babies'.

It happens lots of other places too, for example, when I worked at a paper a few years back, Tony Blair came to the premises as part of the drive for the Commonwealth Games in Manchester, the paper I worked at being one of the big sponsors. He was kept well clear of the 'peasants' (i.e. all us workers), as he probably would have received a few choice comments, and at the time the editor was sucking up to him big time, writing lots of creeping fawning letters on the editorial page (probably after a knighthood or something). Actually, I did bump into TB on that visit, he was coming through the canteen when I went down there for a cigarette and a cup of tea, and he came breezing through (with his jacket off and sleeves rolled up, that being TB's attempt to look like one of the people), and the editor was tailing along behind him like some kind of faithful puppy, it was embarrassing to watch actually, all the editor needed to do to make himself have any less dignity would have been to wring a cap in his hands.

Trust me, those kind of visits are more rehearsed and stage-managed than a West End show.

:D Chock

[elite_hunter_sh3]

http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures/slideshow?collectionId=1272

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e278/suepeace/Sub%20Album%201/bushmurder1.jpg
I'm amazed that Bush can actually look at these men and not wonder "What am I doing?":nope::nope::nope::nope::down:
http://i.today.reuters.com/pictures/galleries/Stories/633301636399843750/Previews/02.JPG

most of them are too awful to look at :cry::cry:


************************** bush. :nope::nope::nope:

i wonder how many more innocent people end up like this before Israel decides the U.S should pull out of iraq..
WMDs my ***...

[Peto]

My son is currently patrolling the Iraq/Iran border with the 101st Airborne. I know what his mission is: Stay Alive and do evrything he can to make sure his buddies do to. Their world is a million miles away from politics. They're tired and just want to come home.

When I see bush (lack of capital letter intentional) posing with wounded Veterans, it disgusts me.

How can a man without honor bestow honor?

[elite_hunter_sh3]

hes not a man at all, hes a filthy moronic coward, only thing he deserves right now, is to be tortured to the extreme, then executed... :yep: :shifty:

killed thousands of troops over some B.S that didnt exist..

[STEED]

Bush may be king of the gaffs but he has made the effort to these wounded men unlike my former Prime Minister Tony Blair and my present one Gordon Brown who have made no effort to see are wounded men.

[Dowly]

http://i.today.reuters.com/pictures/galleries/Stories/633301636399843750/Previews/08.JPG


BUSH: "Look soldier, I got you a brand new T-shirt! Isnt it cool?"
SOLDIER: "You gotta be *******ing kidding me!?"

EDIT:

Oh wait! Elite_hunter didnt mention that it is Bush who is given the shirt by the Veteran, not Bush giving the shirt to the Veteran. :roll:

"President Bush is presented a T-shirt from Lcpl. Isaac Gallegos during a visit to the Center for the Intrepid at Brooke Army Medical Center in San Antonio, Texas, November 8, 2007."

[Brag]

Fasten your seat belts before clicking on the link. Once you enter the world of the Space Hamzters you may fall off your chairs laughing.
http://www.freewebs.com/mesopopo/ :cool:

[Tchocky]

Bush may be king of the gaffs but he has made the effort to these wounded men unlike my former Prime Minister Tony Blair and my present one Gordon Brown who have made no effort to see are wounded men. As far as I know there's a Bill on armed forces care going through the Commons during this Parliamentary session. Blair may have done shag-all, but Brown may yet.

[STEED]

Bush may be king of the gaffs but he has made the effort to these wounded men unlike my former Prime Minister Tony Blair and my present one Gordon Brown who have made no effort to see are wounded men. As far as I know there's a Bill on armed forces care going through the Commons during this Parliamentary session. Blair may have done shag-all, but Brown may yet.

That's a start but I feel our PM should visit our wounded and pay his respects at the airport to those who died.

[August]

hes not a man at all, hes a filthy moronic coward, only thing he deserves right now, is to be tortured to the extreme, then executed... :yep: :shifty:

killed thousands of troops over some B.S that didnt exist..

That's tough talk for some punk kid hiding behind internet anonymity.

[SteminDemon13]

Well, I usually don't post on the politics board. To say Bush should be hung and all that is your opinion that I do not agree upon, however you have a right to it because many others and myself have fought to defend that right. After years of just sweeping foreign policy under the rug, and a false sense of "we are at peace" during the Clinton presidency and don't forget downgrading our miitary, has contributed to the problems we now face.

Did Sadam have nothing to hide? Was he so honest about what his intentions were when he kicked the weapons inspectors out in 98. Was it cool for him to just downplay the UN and violate all those UN resolutions that were failing? How can you come up with laws and the likes if no one is willing to enforce them? The United States of America decided to do something about it and believe it or not, has countries that supported it, while some choose to remain silent in their support.

Sadam had a lot to hide, i he didn't he wouldn't have sent that bogus report to show "everything" he had. The planes that were uncovered in Iraq were not on that report, nor a plethora of other things. When was the last time you heard of Bush or Clinton Killing hundeds of thousands of their own people? Sadam....well he has.

So the question boils down to, when were we going to deal with Sadam? Were we going to just sweep it under the rug again and do nothing?,write more UN resolutions so that Sadam can just blow them off and show the uselessness of those resolutions?, wait till the civilian death toll rises to Hollocaust status?, wait until he deploys chemical weapons on people that oppose him or gas other countries?, shall we have waited until he invades another country, go in and atack and then be told to go home because our job is done and watch numerous supporters of freedom get killed again?

I do not agree with every policy Bush has put forth, but our country has stood up to terrorism and is dealing with it. When during the Clinton years have you seen so many people speak out against their Government and want freedom and democracy, equal rights, and so on? It has been happening a lot because many people want the freedoms we share and have a right to them.

There are many policies I disagree with, sure the Military funding has gone up, but those dollars are being wasted. All this money that has funded the "cost plus fee way", pork barrel projects and the likes is one thing I am strongly against. How many years are we going to leave a NSFS (Naval Surface Fire Support) gap for our troops? They say, oh we are coming up with ERGM, and this and that since forever now and have either nothing to show for it or it will be 2040 until it comes around.

One effective, low cost near and mid term and even long term solution to the problem, which many have (marines, the underspoken army and many others) been asking for was to reactivate the battleships. Due to disgusting politics this has not come to fruition. If they would have reactivated them in 2001 the EX-148 Darpa round would have been fielded along with numerous other low cost projectiles even including 400+NM Scram Jet rounds, which would still be a cheaper yet a viably effective alternative to the Missile.
If you'll notice there is a key word up there...."Low Cost". That word doesn't fly around well like it did in the 80's when Lehman was secretary of the navy. Kind of a cuss word nowadays, as is fixed price incentive and firm fixed price. Say those words and people will look at you like to told them off.
You see the Battleships don't require the ammount of O&M costs that the carriers bear. Also DDX...multi Billion Dollars spent, but nothing to show for it which litton, raytheon, General Dynamics and other corporations are involved in make it okay to be anti battleship because they (the battleships) are a lower cost solution and won't fill their pockets:nope: . Well hell, it wouldn't fill their pockets, but it would fill a gap that could save lives, save money and bring prior tried and true capabilities along with new ones.

So no, I do not agree with a lot of things that are going on in this administration, but at least we are doing something about many of the situations at hand, instead of waiting for another catastrophic event to take place.

[Tchocky]

Bush may be king of the gaffs but he has made the effort to these wounded men unlike my former Prime Minister Tony Blair and my present one Gordon Brown who have made no effort to see are wounded men. As far as I know there's a Bill on armed forces care going through the Commons during this Parliamentary session. Blair may have done shag-all, but Brown may yet. That's a start but I feel our PM should visit our wounded and pay his respects at the airport to those who died. I'd definitely prefer being left alone with quality support for my health & family, than a visit and nothing more.
But I do see what you're saying, image is important. I'm just relieved that there's legislation in the works to improve the lot of UK servicemen.

[bradclark1]

That photo shows a soldier giving Bush a tee shirt not the other way around. I don't think Bush was in the 3rd Recon (Wolfpack).

most of them are too awful to look at :cry::cry:
**** you, then don't!

[RickC Sniper]

most of them are too awful to look at


You would really be an asset to a squad of soldiers if you had to administer first aid to one who got injured.

Do your country a favor.......NEVER join their military.

:down: :down: :down: :down: :down:


Did I say :down: to you yet?

[Biggles]

Man....you don't see pictures like these in Sweden....makes me unwillingly wonder what hell they walked through..... God, war is a horrible thing!

For the record, I haven't heard anything good about Bush here in Sweden since....well, 2003 I think.....

[Kapitan_Phillips]

http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures/slideshow?collectionId=1272

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e278/suepeace/Sub%20Album%201/bushmurder1.jpg
I'm amazed that Bush can actually look at these men and not wonder "What am I doing?":nope::nope::nope::nope::down:
http://i.today.reuters.com/pictures/galleries/Stories/633301636399843750/Previews/02.JPG

most of them are too awful to look at :cry::cry:


************************** bush. :nope::nope::nope:

i wonder how many more innocent people end up like this before Israel decides the U.S should pull out of iraq..
WMDs my ***...


At least he bothers.

[baggygreen]

These poor buggers may be disfigured, and they may be disabled, but they signed up as volunteers. Last time i checked the US doesnt have conscription...

They signed up knowing that there was a chance they'd be sent away to fight a war... whether they agree with it or not, i've little doubt they went into it gladly - its their job! its what they put so many hard hours into training for...

Bottom liine of it is that they accept the risks when they enlist, these poor fellas lucked out but believe it or not, people have been coming home from wars in similar states for thousands of years.

[CCIP]

Bottom liine of it is that they accept the risks when they enlist, these poor fellas lucked out but believe it or not, people have been coming home from wars in similar states for thousands of years.
Actually there is an ironic note to make here:

Thanks to the recent advances in medicine, the Iraq war has so far produced the highest rate of severely disabled veterans yet. Previous wars would have many of such casualties die of their injuries. I don't remember where I saw these stats, but the ratio of KIA to WIA in Iraq definitely had me raising an eyebrow when I saw it.

That said, well... they knew what they were doing. Or should've known.
I definitely sympathise with all service men, but with volunteer forces like this - you just have to recognize that these are repercussions of their own choices.

[baggygreen]

Makes sense too ccip, the advances in medicine have allowed those who would otherwise have died to live. I do think its an unintended consequence of these achievements that you have people who are unrecognisable. Might also go a long way to explaining the increased suicide rates amongst returned vets in the states.

Every action has an opposite reaction...

[Swede]

George Bush killed my cat and he tuhk oaur jeeerrrrbbbsss......

[TteFAboB]

He tuk are Jerrrrrbs!

[Onkel Neal]

These poor buggers may be disfigured, and they may be disabled, but they signed up as volunteers. Last time i checked the US doesnt have conscription...

They signed up knowing that there was a chance they'd be sent away to fight a war... whether they agree with it or not, i've little doubt they went into it gladly - its their job! its what they put so many hard hours into training for...

Bottom liine of it is that they accept the risks when they enlist, these poor fellas lucked out but believe it or not, people have been coming home from wars in similar states for thousands of years.


My perception is most of them understand this, but the government is pretty stingy with compensation (http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/11/15/wounded.marine/index.html), I don't like that at all. It didn't start with this administration, either. If you are disabled in military service, you should be treated better than we treat our vets. :down:

[CCIP]

Yea, that's a whole other big issue of course. For all the photo ops bush had, outside of these top-edge facilities where the real bad cases go - vet support has always been an issue in the state. Also heard some nasty figures on vets & homelessness - I'm sure Sailor Steve could tell us all about that :-?

[Iceman]

Curious how "elite_hunter_sh3" remarks have ceased...Thank God. :up: I couldn't take any more constructive, insightful, enlightning, conversation.

Pointed out by CCIP I also had noted that fact before about the survival rate...yes before many men would have simply died.

And I do not understand either how our vets are not treated better for the sacrifice they make wether or not they are injured or not, they deserve the best medical treatment and benifits available.As an American tax payer I will gladly accept more taxes out of my pay if I know for sure the money is going to vets and they're needs.

"Within 48 hours of telling his story to CNN this summer, the Office of then-VA Secretary Jim Nicholson acted on Ziegel's case. The VA changed his head trauma injury, once rated at 10 percent, to traumatic brain injury rated at 100 percent, substantially increasing his monthly disability check." from Neals link...WTG press action.

[Peto]

United we stand, divided we fall.

Unfortunately, the US is as divided as I've ever seen. Even more than it was in the Vietnam era. If we continue our current course it will get much more difficult to correct.

I do fault our current administation for this. If the CEO of a company let things get out of hand this badly, he would most certainly be shown the door. A nation is basically a Huge Corporation. And history has shown they can fail and fall. The US is no exception.

But I do want us out of the war in Iraq. I do want my son and all other soldiors to come home. And I do know that none of them will ever be the same--my son cetainly wasn't after his 1st tour. At the very least, the number of tours they are required to make should be limited to two.

My opinion is that our current administration simply doesn't care about anything except stroking their own egos and padding their wallets.

Back home in their halls of stone
Important men look on
They see the numbers, not the names
Not the dying sons

You'd think they'd see the wars must cease
The wars that they've begun
You'd think learn to understand
A war just can't be won

Peto

[AVGWarhawk]

These poor buggers may be disfigured, and they may be disabled, but they signed up as volunteers. Last time i checked the US doesnt have conscription...

They signed up knowing that there was a chance they'd be sent away to fight a war... whether they agree with it or not, i've little doubt they went into it gladly - its their job! its what they put so many hard hours into training for...

Bottom liine of it is that they accept the risks when they enlist, these poor fellas lucked out but believe it or not, people have been coming home from wars in similar states for thousands of years.


My perception is most of them understand this, but the government is pretty stingy with compensation (http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/11/15/wounded.marine/index.html), I don't like that at all. It didn't start with this administration, either. If you are disabled in military service, you should be treated better than we treat our vets. :down:


100% agree! Most military families of 4 are boarderline poverty level. Throw in disfigurement or loss of limb and your screwed. Lets not bring up the condition of the Walter Reed Army Medical Center. This was a travesty. Thankfully some contractors showed up with construction material and fixed it......another act of congress to get it done:roll: I was fortunate enough to send in one of my Landstar show trucks with murals of two soldiers (my drivers son and his friend) on both sides of the truck. This was for the dedication of the new wing off the hospital. The truck was full of free hand outs and baskets of goodies. The soldiers were very appreciative and so were their families.



Elite:
I'm amazed that Bush can actually look at these men and not wonder "What am I doing?":nope::nope::nope::nope::down:



You can not seriously believe this?



Peto:
Unfortunately, the US is as divided as I've ever seen. Even more than it was in the Vietnam era. If we continue our current course it will get much more difficult to correct.




This is this generations Vietnam. No matter what angle you look at it, the situation is not good.

[turnerg]

Wow, I drop off the sonar from Subsim after joining the Marines, and i guess some things don't change. Always lot's of political debate going on...

Anyways, what if I told you the situation "over there" wasn't as grim as the media says it is? What if I said that my buddies over there right now are literally bored because the Iraqi troops have really taken things over running patrols, checkpoints, etc. You never see it on CNN, oh no. But then when the troops say anything other that what the media says, ooohhh were brainwashed, we don't know whats going on. I knew fully well that when I joined up, I could end up like swiss cheese, or dead. But I'd rather go and do it voluntarily, so others don't have to. One of the many reasons I hate politics. No matter what you do, what your intentions, people will always fling mud, whether you are actually doing something good for other people or not. They always point out the worst in someone./Rant off

[Skybird]

My son is currently patrolling the Iraq/Iran border with the 101st Airborne. I know what his mission is: Stay Alive and do evrything he can to make sure his buddies do to. Their world is a million miles away from politics. They're tired and just want to come home.

When I see bush (lack of capital letter intentional) posing with wounded Veterans, it disgusts me.

How can a man without honor bestow honor?
An honest and straight post, thank you. Best wishes for your son's safe return. Cause when I say that I'm also a million miles away from politics.

[Skybird]

Wow, I drop off the sonar from Subsim after joining the Marines, and i guess some things don't change. Always lot's of political debate going on...

Anyways, what if I told you the situation "over there" wasn't as grim as the media says it is? What if I said that my buddies over there right now are literally bored because the Iraqi troops have really taken things over running patrols, checkpoints, etc. You never see it on CNN, oh no. But then when the troops say anything other that what the media says, ooohhh were brainwashed, we don't know whats going on. I knew fully well that when I joined up, I could end up like swiss cheese, or dead. But I'd rather go and do it voluntarily, so others don't have to. One of the many reasons I hate politics. No matter what you do, what your intentions, people will always fling mud, whether you are actually doing something good for other people or not. They always point out the worst in someone./Rant offNot wanting to fight over it, just reminding that a single man's view on one small part of the battlefield is one thing, and the overall view on the whole may still look very different. After all, the violence and bloodtoll for the civil society in Iraq is exceeding anything positive there may be, or may or may not have been planned or hoped for.

[August]

Wow, I drop off the sonar from Subsim after joining the Marines, and i guess some things don't change. Always lot's of political debate going on...

Anyways, what if I told you the situation "over there" wasn't as grim as the media says it is? What if I said that my buddies over there right now are literally bored because the Iraqi troops have really taken things over running patrols, checkpoints, etc. You never see it on CNN, oh no. But then when the troops say anything other that what the media says, ooohhh were brainwashed, we don't know whats going on. I knew fully well that when I joined up, I could end up like swiss cheese, or dead. But I'd rather go and do it voluntarily, so others don't have to. One of the many reasons I hate politics. No matter what you do, what your intentions, people will always fling mud, whether you are actually doing something good for other people or not. They always point out the worst in someone./Rant offNot wanting to fight over it, just reminding that a single man's view on one small part of the battlefield is one thing, and the overall view on the whole may still look very different. After all, the violence and bloodtoll for the civil society in Iraq is exceeding anything positive there may be, or may or may not have been planned or hoped for.

Excuse me Skybird did you just discount a serving US Marines opinion as myopic while claiming that you know better? :roll:

[Gorduz]

It's interesting to hear what you are saing Turnerg. And you are right the media is twisted, and it is really hard to get a good view of whats happening. Thats one of the main reason I'm bothering reading all these political posts. It's so many people here with different views on every subjects. I really hope for all the soldiers serving, and not atleast for the Iraqis that you have right and that the situation is bettering.

[turnerg]

So having the right to a free life, and voting is worthless? Seems to me if we just sit here in our borders, and don't help anyone but ourselves, everyone complains and asks for our help.... but if we do anything other than what the UN wants, we're sticking our noses where we don't belong.... which is it? Turtle up, or be world police? Saddam and his regime was on our list for a long time, and the UN's as well. He had it coming.

And long time no see Skybird:arrgh!:

[SteminDemon13]

Not wanting to fight over it, just reminding that a single man's view on one small part of the battlefield is one thing, and the overall view on the whole may still look very different. After all, the violence and bloodtoll for the civil society in Iraq is exceeding anything positive there may be, or may or may not have been planned or hoped for.

Skybird, He is not just a single man, He is a Marine. Marine, thank you for serving. That is the problem, anyone that talks of success is downplayed just as you have done. Are you over there right now? Have you helped make progress or have seen progress in Iraq? If so please let us know. There are many stories like his floating around, but that's good news, and good news doesn't sell like bad news. People have it in their mindset that anything out of Iraq is bad and just ignore all the positive things going on. I am sick and tired of the people who have served there being downplayed and passed off as nonsense. When on the news do you see a story on "the progress in Iraq"? Britany spears gets more headlines than any success in Iraq ever has and it's a damn shame.

You could be doing so much good and not to many people will notice, but screw up once and people remember it forever. Skybird, I have read many of your posts and you do carry yourself well, and you and Letum arguing was funny, but it looks like you two are friends again:up: . We all learn new things each day, so maybe today you can learn to look at the other side of things when it comes to Iraq, especially when it is coming from people on the battlefield, not just some dumb ass reporter whose only goal is to get the worst news he/she can sell.

[Skybird]

Wow, I drop off the sonar from Subsim after joining the Marines, and i guess some things don't change. Always lot's of political debate going on...

Anyways, what if I told you the situation "over there" wasn't as grim as the media says it is? What if I said that my buddies over there right now are literally bored because the Iraqi troops have really taken things over running patrols, checkpoints, etc. You never see it on CNN, oh no. But then when the troops say anything other that what the media says, ooohhh were brainwashed, we don't know whats going on. I knew fully well that when I joined up, I could end up like swiss cheese, or dead. But I'd rather go and do it voluntarily, so others don't have to. One of the many reasons I hate politics. No matter what you do, what your intentions, people will always fling mud, whether you are actually doing something good for other people or not. They always point out the worst in someone./Rant offNot wanting to fight over it, just reminding that a single man's view on one small part of the battlefield is one thing, and the overall view on the whole may still look very different. After all, the violence and bloodtoll for the civil society in Iraq is exceeding anything positive there may be, or may or may not have been planned or hoped for.

Excuse me Skybird did you just discount a serving US Marines opinion as myopic while claiming that you know better? :roll:

I said what I said, not more, not less. You are free to make it something personal, or not. since i used a general form, you can assume I spoke in general, not necessarily with special regard to turnerg. He made a voluntary decision, btw. Since I never commented on that, you do not know what I think of it.

But I certainly do not accept any views to be obligatory for others, because somebody is in active service. Which you again are free to take as a minimizing of this person, or not. that is your decision, not mine.

[Skybird]

So having the right to a free life, and voting is worthless? Seems to me if we just sit here in our borders, and don't help anyone but ourselves, everyone complains and asks for our help.... but if we do anything other than what the UN wants, we're sticking our noses where we don't belong.... which is it? Turtle up, or be world police? Saddam and his regime was on our list for a long time, and the UN's as well. He had it coming.

And long time no see Skybird:arrgh!:
Hope you are well. Disagreements yes or no, I certainly do not wish you bad. :yep: Take care of yourself.

[Skybird]

Not wanting to fight over it, just reminding that a single man's view on one small part of the battlefield is one thing, and the overall view on the whole may still look very different. After all, the violence and bloodtoll for the civil society in Iraq is exceeding anything positive there may be, or may or may not have been planned or hoped for.

Skybird, He is not just a single man, He is a Marine. Marine, thank you for serving. That is the problem, anyone that talks of success is downplayed just as you have done. Are you over there right now? Have you helped make progress or have seen progress in Iraq? If so please let us know. There are many stories like his floating around, but that's good news, and good news doesn't sell like bad news. People have it in their mindset that anything out of Iraq is bad and just ignore all the positive things going on. I am sick and tired of the people who have served there being downplayed and passed off as nonsense. When on the news do you see a story on "the progress in Iraq"? Britany spears gets more headlines than any success in Iraq ever has and it's a damn shame.

You could be doing so much good and not to many people will notice, but screw up once and people remember it forever. Skybird, I have read many of your posts and you do carry yourself well, and you and Letum arguing was funny, but it looks like you two are friends again:up: . We all learn new things each day, so maybe today you can learn to look at the other side of things when it comes to Iraq, especially when it is coming from people on the battlefield, not just some dumb ass reporter whose only goal is to get the worst news he/she can sell.

estimations of civilian casualties widely range from some 50 thousand to over 600 thousand. That should make it clear to everybody who suffers the lion's share of of the war consequences. ;)

[Peto]

Anyways, what if I told you the situation "over there" wasn't as grim as the media says it is? What if I said that my buddies over there right now are literally bored because the Iraqi troops have really taken things over running patrols, checkpoints, etc. You never see it on CNN, oh no. But then when the troops say anything other that what the media says, ooohhh were brainwashed, we don't know whats going on. I knew fully well that when I joined up, I could end up like swiss cheese, or dead. But I'd rather go and do it voluntarily, so others don't have to. One of the many reasons I hate politics. No matter what you do, what your intentions, people will always fling mud, whether you are actually doing something good for other people or not. They always point out the worst in someone./Rant off

I certainly don't doubt what you say turnerg. In fact--there is no question that we are getting a skewwed report of reality by the media--as well as from politicians. My son also feels as you do as far as volunteering. And I certainly wish/hope my son finds one of those quiet sectors you spoke about. He's collected enough Purple Hearts on his 1st tour.

As far as whether or not we should have invaded Iraq: I have a couple neighbors who deserve to have their butts kicked. That doesn't mean I'll go over and do it. Doing it would only bring me down to their level. But--If I chose to do it, you can bet I'd do it right! The way the Iraq war has been handled is a travisty, based on wishfull thinking rather than reality. And the result of that means you--as a soldior--have been put in more danger than is nessecary. It will take at least a decade for our military to recover from this war.

This is not to mention Iran, Syria, Turkey, Lebanon, Pakistan, Kurdistan, Russia. We certainly have put more than Iraq on alert! The world is far more dangerous today because we invaded Iraq. Thinking otherwise would be--again--wishfull thinking. And if we choose to attack Iran--like our administration seems to want to do--we had better hang on to our collective butts for a wild ride. Iran is much tougher than Iraq was and has farther reaching influence.

Well--I could go on for hours--I have "some" international experience so have deliberately not gone into detail. I thank you--as I do all veterans for serving. And I respect your post--it is intelligent and you make excellent points. I too hate politics and mud-slinging. Unfortunately, the world has become a much more muddy place in the last few years.

All the Best! Salute!

Peto

[Skybird]

And a second time I must agree with almost all that Peto said.

[turnerg]

Well, a little more on topic so to speak, vet, and ESPECIALLY wounded vet benefits needs a serious overhaul. The system was broke before Bush came into office, but it really needs work. Geez, the Romans gave you a plot of land, and you could end up being in upper society... Vets are the ones that pay for everyone's freedoms, that certainly is something i'll watch for this round of elections.

And btw skybird, you might be surprised that I agree that war should never have to be an option. We SHOULD be able to ask guys like Saddam to not gas their own people, torture athletes, etc. What would you find worse: reading that a helpless person was beat to death, or that there were people all around, fully capable of stopping it, yet they let it happen claiming it was not their bussiness, despite whether they thought it was wrong or not? You are right though, hasty action does bring serious concequences, but on the Marine side of the war, there was no lack of motivation, even when we had old gear. Since Vietnam we usually had army hand-me-downs, all the way up until the current administration. Sometimes it takes that "cold bucket of water in the face" like the issues we had with armor, weapons, etc. to get the ball rolling in the right direction. Now, we get brand new stuff, new rifles, new armor, helmets, cammies, stuff that surely never happened when the clintons were in

[Skybird]

turnerg,

a. saddam in place, and his sons and himself commiting crimes against their own people never has led to such chaos and levels of bloodshed after the war against Iran (where they enjoyed Western and US support), as the Iraqi has suffered since after 2003. This could hardly be called an improvement, then. Bloodshet , torture on the level as under saddam, ethnic hate, religious conflict, and crime levels show a detoriation in fact. A future tyrant making a stand against Iran and thus being supported by the WH, can be expected in case the Shia are not successful in installing a iran-supported puppet regime. so, in that case the names will have chnaged, while the dirty games remains to be the same.

We have a german proverb, that goes like this "Den Teufel mit dem Beelzebub austreiben". It means to repalkce one evil with another. Those good-willingly fighting for this and thinking of it in terms of freedom and democracy - are getting abused by their own leaders.

b. the war had been launched for very specific public reasons, pointing at a (non-existing) link to Al Quaeda, and pointing to a threat being emitted by iraq. the latter still is unproven, and except theories that aggressive debators even would not hesitate to label as conspiracy theories, no evidence, substantial and solid clues have been found until today. As was repeatedly said by now: a reason you give before a war is a reason. A reason you construct after a war - is a foul excuse. It does not matter that neocons had the Iraq war written in their agenda black on white since the early nineties -this was not the reason given to the public for going to war. the war was (officially) about Saddam's link to Al Quaeda and his link to 9/11 and Iraq being short to have nuclear missiles - these were the reasons being told to the public.

c. the war has strengthend Iran's postion in the whole area, and its influence in Iraq. It has created more enemies, than it has killed enemies, and still is breeding them. Before, their was no terrorists in iraq - now they are swarming in that country. US intel community itself admites this. It has helped "fundamentalist Islam" (as we love in the West to make a difference between it at "moderate" Islam) to win the momentum in the propaganda war, and maximize it. It has messed up relations with long-standing allies and friends. It has a dramatic impact of state finances in america. It has put many other military projects on halt, due to the still increasing costs of the Iraq war. It has worn out equipement and raised replacement needs in very critical quantities. Just days ago a comittee released a study saying that the real war costs - including the so-called "hidden" costs" - need to be calculated twice as high as they have been so far, and that at current projections for plans over the next ten years, the overall costs would surpass the 3 trillion dollars-mark. see this in combination with the highly vulnerable (not weak, but vulknerable, whcih is two very different things)state finances, both things i linked to at the end.

d. Concerning your example of a crime happening and the crowd standing by - your forgot that I have been a psychologist. I only can point you to social psychology's rich literature on the anonymity of mass societies preventing the individual to accept responsibility in such a situation. Unfortunately, there are all too many example were women had been raped in public places - and people staring and making mockery, or walking away and turn their backs. Sometimes several dozens of people being able to help turned away! People getting murdered and yelling for help - and people shutting windows and closing doors, or looking, chatting with friends on the phone. People being rolled over by cars and vans - and people not trying to stop the driver, or even help the hurt victim, or even call the officials. Alls this - unfortunately - is very, very common, and interestingly you can observe comparable events if using mice and rats in a laboratoy setting and make them live in totally crowded, unnaturally crowded environemnts - they first stop to be cooperative, and then turn against each other. Rats start a bite wars, until most got killed and only very few survived. the sense for the "social" dies first, it seems, braking the communities backbone that way.

If you are unlucky, and remain to be a warrior of your nation for long enough, you will find yourself in such a battletheatre in the future sooner or later, because sociologists project that many of the mega-cties that are still growing sooner or later will become ungovernable, and will then be like infectious places spreading international anarchy and crime being commited with paramilitary means . And if these cities or nations have any value or are of any interest for america, you (means: US forces) will be sent there for whatever the mission is. A first taste you can get when looking at Sao Paolo, and crime activities in some other Southamerican cities. - So the example you point at - really is old news for sociologists.



On yur refernce to the Marine's motivation, I can only come back to August'S comment, who suspected I tried to minimize your opinon as "one man's voice" only. I told him I answered on a general level, not with rega to your person, and that was really my intention indeed. You voiced your view of things, from the background of your new life and your experience. but as a matter of fact we have had for example here in the forum, but in media as well, references to other soldiers of your very same army, the US army, who after having been in Iraq just said the opposite of what you say. Could you really so easily wipe their view off the table as well? Maybe because they for exmaple have "just" been army, and no marines? We have seen very substantial criticism and pessimis even from high ranks, whom I expect to really be in possession of informations that enable them to have a greater view on the whole, than the single John Smith grunt doing a tour in the area of Baghdad alone. I do not know anybody in Iraq, but I know three german BW officers who are or were in Afghanistan. they too tell by experience different stories and versions of events. One of them is a higher officer, and he had a pessimistic description. the others were more exposed in the field, and also painted a negative picture, but - a different picture, being pessimistic from being seen in a very different angle. Also, most of the German now for reasons of self.-protection are being trapped inside thier compund for weeks and months, almost begging for being send on now wquite danerous patrols outside. Many germans doinga tour there - do not see anything outside the camp. their image of the overall situation thus can be considerdd to be minimal only. The first of the germans I mentioned referred to strategic variables, and longterm developements, the latter referred to tings that were very real for them and had been withnessed by them with their very own senses, on location. One cpuld also speak of a strategic and a tactical perspective.

That'S why I initially said something like that the single soldier out there hardly ever has a representative image of the whole situation. It was not meant as a personal insult. It just is matter of fact. So, you probably only get the whole picture - when putting together the information from as many different sources as possible, veryfying them, sorting out the contradictions and self-interests - and then see what you have. And on that level the pictures looks very different from what you say.



Finally, one personal word, since August indirectly demanded any kind of clearance on it. I am aware that the marine chorps in the US society has some kind of special status, which is respected at least by conservative circles. From my (European) perspective, this is somewhat bewildering, and a bit alienating, and we see it much more pragmatic over here: ghermany has had it's share of militarism, and that has cured us (maybe more than is healthy for us today...). However, though being critical of such - as I see it - glorfication of military traditions (feel free to disagree), I principally always accept an individual's wish to contribute to a just cause, or more direct: to dedicate him-/herself to serve the just and legal well-being of his people. It is hard to argue against such a wish. Where "people" is replaced with "nation", I am starting to become alarmed, because it is a step away from the concrete matter, the living reality, towards a higher level of abstraction. So, in principal I respect somebody's decision to become a soldier (that's what I exclusively see you as, independant from your military branch), when he says he wants to do a service to his country.

But - always a "but" from me - i would like to point out two things:

First, there are many different ways in which somebody can serve his nation, people, community, or ideals. Participating in the military is just one amongst several, and while not minimizing it I also don't see it as the shining royal way there is. It has it's place, and there it is needed, for msoemtimes military strength simply is needed - but not more, but also: not less.

And second, willing to serve your people as a soldier shall not be mistaken with willing to serve in every war some parts of these people send you to. as a soldier, you have no choice, of course, you must answer certain questions in advance before becoming a recruit, and when you said Yes, then you have no right to refuse to go if you get the order.

What I am about is this: I see a person's decision to become a soldier, and his opinion on a given war, as two totally different things, that'S why from my perspective it must not mean personal insult or attack towards that person having become a soldier when I question the reasons and the wisdom of the wars he/she is being send into. I can question a given war without necessarily question the insitution of the military as a whole, and automatically. You hear that, August? ;) I do not judge people on the basis of wether they are military, or not. A soldier is no worse and no better person and human in my eyes. His' value as a human being is not determined by that, but by his character, his drives, his actions. If he wears a uniform or not is of little concern to me. I even was close to pick that option myself, once (and admit I'm happy today that I did not, due to the stupdiity of our politicians). On the matter discussed here, I build my opinion of people on their answers by which they defend or attack a given war - and this is the ground on which I may debate with them, or not. So, if you maybe take my rejection of the Iraq war as a personal rejection aimed at you or the military in general, you would be wrong.

Three links to threads or essay we had recently, that you might find interesting, but probably have missed. (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=124944) In different ways, the two economic essays (not by me, don't worry) deal with the basis on which the Iraq war is fought, and feeds back into american society. Both are tightly linked, nevertheless.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=124944
http://www.currentconcerns.ch/index.php?id=179
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/13_11_07_us_iraq.pdf

So again, let's disagree, but take care of yourself. Hope this longer writing helps to keep any personal hostility out of it. There already has been too much of that.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

Curious how "elite_hunter_sh3" remarks have ceased...Thank God. :up:


:roll:
o really.... and how did you know i magically could not post replies or start new topics??? dont worry, i mentioned your post to neal, hes looking into it... :up:

[ReallyDedPoet]

I am no Bush lover, but is Neal looking into this one too elite hunter :hmm:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=695524&postcount=6


RDP

[elite_hunter_sh3]

did WMD exist in iraq?? nope... a major reason to go into iraq was simply because of oil... :roll:

[Onkel Neal]

I am no Bush lover, but is Neal looking into this one too elite hunter :hmm:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=695524&postcount=6


RDP

Yep, that's not the kind of tone we want here. Let's remember to discuss these issues on a higher plane.

[ReallyDedPoet]

I am no Bush lover, but is Neal looking into this one too elite hunter :hmm:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=695524&postcount=6


RDP
Yep, that's not the kind of tone we want here. Let's remember to discuss these issues on a higher plane.

Thanks for the response Neal :yep: As mentioned, that post by elite hunter takes it to far.


RDP

[elite_hunter_sh3]

is jail good enough then?? or do we let him off scot free... ?? :shifty:

[Ducimus]

In response to photo's, one word:

"PhotoOp".

He's there to get his picture taken because its good politics, and for no other reason.

The reality is, once you've done your service, and exit it, regardless if you come out with all fingers, toes, arms, skin, etc you came in with or not - once their done with you, they are REALLY done with you. The goverment really, and truly, does not give two s**ts. The VA might give something resembeling a s**t, but the overall goverment? You get a pat on the back, a boot in the ass, and then your out with yesterdays garbage.

[bookworm_020]

It's intresting to see what is being said on this forum. Was Iraq is such a mess before U.S. & co. invaded? Yes and no, Yes, there was alot of bloodshead going on behind the scenes, Attacks on the Kurds, destuction of the lands of the Marsh Arabs, the usual despotic actions of a tyrant and his cronies. No, there was some degree of being able to walk down the streets safely (as you as you hadn't upset the "government") ther was a form of government and order (of sorts). It wasn't pretty before the invasion, it isn't much better (or worse, depending on your view point)

The reasons given to go and get rid of Saddam have already been discussed and the weakness of the said reasons is clear.

Can Iraq be a united country again? That's one we have to all wait and see.

If your worried about how America has handled Iraq, then Australia isn't much better. We used the same reasons as the U.S. and have been part of it from the begining (on a small scale). Has it caused problems for Australia, Yes, the military is streched as it has been deployed to many different areas (Afganistain, Iraq, East Timor, Solomans, Indoenesia tusami releif, Boganville and half a dozen UN Peace keeping missions) People are divided, should we stay or should we go and add into it an upcoming election, 24th of November, it isn't going to go away.

What ever happens, don't blame the troops who serve there for the problems. They are just doing what they are ordered to do. It's the politicians who have to take the blame as well as the responibility for what has happened

[Ducimus]

What ever happens, don't blame the troops who serve there for the problems. They are just doing what they are ordered to do. It's the politicians who have to take the blame as well as the responibility for what has happened

The trooops, are people who had the courage to follow their convictions. They volunteered to do, what they saw, was the right thing to do, for the greater good. They do not make the polcies or decisions, but it is left to them to enact those policies or decisions, in blind faith and trust in their nations elected leadership. It is the elected politicians duty, to not betray or abuse that trust.

[Skybird]

They do not make the polcies or decisions, but it is left to them to enact those policies or decisions, in blind faith and trust in their nations elected leadership.

Blind faith...??? - Oh-oh.

It is the elected politicians duty, to not betray or abuse that trust.Exactly. And this is were the administration has failed so totally and miserably. this is the level were my disgust for Bush and gang is rooting at.they did not only betray the members of the armed forces. They betrayed their whole people.
Spit.

[Ducimus]

>>Blind faith...??? - Oh-oh.


Some are more blind then others. But not all are blind, and "I was just following orders" where war crimes (at the individual level) are concerned is never an excuse.

[Tchocky]

Recently been reading a lot of Army Of Dude, a returning soldiers blog.

armyofdude.blogspot.com

[waste gate]

Recently been reading a lot of Army Of Dude, a returning soldiers blog.

armyofdude.blogspot.com

Isn't this the guy who reported for the AP under a pseudonym and was discredited for his reports?

[Peto]

Ducimus: Your mind works as well as your mods.

:up:

[Ducimus]

Recently been reading a lot of Army Of Dude, a returning soldiers blog.

armyofdude.blogspot.com

Isn't this the guy who reported for the AP under a pseudonym and was discredited for his reports?

*shrug* Don't know. Ive read a bit of his blog. Certain bits and pieces of it i can relate to in some fashion such as this entry:

http://armyofdude.blogspot.com/2007/10/coming-home-part-two.html

Most of it i can't, because i wasn't there, and he does tend to get a little too poltical, but i can't say i blame him. I do know that most hardline rightwingers hate this guy with a passion. My guess is because he's a troop that doesn't support their views. Since "the troops" are a card played by the right wingers full hilt, it's no surprise they go after him with gusto. Since i write this from the perspective of a left winger, i guess it bears mentioning that i don't take sides with either, and don't like the barnyard antics of donkeys, nor the circus acts of dumbo.

[Tchocky]

Recently been reading a lot of Army Of Dude, a returning soldiers blog.

armyofdude.blogspot.com Isn't this the guy who reported for the AP under a pseudonym and was discredited for his reports? I haven't found anything on that, and it's not mentioned on the blog. Can you link?

[Iceman]

Curious how "elite_hunter_sh3" remarks have ceased...Thank God. :up:


:roll:
o really.... and how did you know i magically could not post replies or start new topics??? dont worry, i mentioned your post to neal, hes looking into it... :up:

Dude...ehh forget it lol.

I am really a computer hacker and can see all your computers and every keystroke you all make so watch out...:o crack kills ya know :|\\