Frustrated to tears with CTDs

[floundericiousWA]

:down: :down: :down: :nope: :nope: :nope:

I finally got SH3 earlier this year (in around March) after getting a new Dell XPS 410. It has a 1.8 MHz Core Duo processor, 1GB of memory and an NVIDIA 7300LE 512MB video card...

I had no problems playing the game until this summer and was freaking loving it :rock: :rock: :rock: ...then...all of a sudden :damn: :damn:

I CTD non stop... YOU SUCK AGAIN!

I've updated the NVIDIA drivers to the latest (100 something. something)...no help...

I've read here and elsewhere about turning down the sound acceleration...no joy...

The CTDs come at virtually any time after the game engine gets going (after I'm in a submarine). It happens primarily at station changes (say, going from the watch deck to the map view or map view to exterior or map view to periscope). The screen freezes, the audio drops into a 1 second loop...and the computer takes its pick of CTDing normally, CTDing back to 4-bit 640x480 corrupted graphics view, or just plain freezing so I have to hold down the power button and cold boot.

I have no #()*$*#($* clue what to do with this thing...

NO mods installed
v1.4 patch installed (yes, for my DVD version and yes, for the North America version)
I've updated the NVIDIA drivers...I even dl'd the latest DirectX 9.0c drivers for all the other crap...
I've cleaned out the SH3 folder in my documents...and it gets better..for about 20 minutes...
I've uninstalled and installed fresh...I've defragged...I turn off as many of the obvious processes as possible (ipodservice, e.g.) and the anti-spyware tools

I seem to be able to do an academy mission...80% of the time without a CTD...but as soon as I try career...I'd give it about 35 minutes MAX and it shuts me down...

This is very serious (harumpf!harumpf!harumpf! - sorry, even as pissed as I am, I still have to throw in the blazing saddles ref :up: )

I'm not doing anything that I can tell differently...I'm () this far from throwing the ****ing thing under my car's tires and burning its entrails in frustration...

Any thoughts?

Ok, any HELPFUL thoughts?

[baggygreen]

Firstly, gday and welcome to the forums, you came to the right place for a hand

Next, the only thing i can think of with regards your CTDs that might help in the immediate future is to set SH3 to run as a high priority program through task manager. In the longer term id consider upping the ram to 2 gig, but thats optional.

No doubt someone with a bit more technical expertise will be along shortly to help out more:yep:

[floundericiousWA]

I'll check that and try it, baggygreen, thanks!

Please keep'em coming...

:doh: :doh: :doh: :lost:

[bigboywooly]

Hmmm
IIRC doesnt the 7300 only have 128mb onboard and takes the rest from the RAM ?

Still should be enough GPU power to run the game though
If it ran ok before and not now then something has happened in between
Windows updates ?

[Patboot]

Hum I hate to suggest this, but it almost sounds like the Vcard is packing its bags for a trip south. Any other graphic-intensive game give you any problems?

[Paajtor]

I've had this problem too, on my previous PC.
It can be either faulty RAM, HD, or GPU.
I would check the RAM first...take it out, and re-insert it...and make sure you're grounded, before touching the RAM-stick(-s).

[flag4]

:up: high there flounder'

i'm wondering what your SH3 DETECTION TOOL says ?

have you done any 'saving game' under water - this knackeres things up, i can speak from personal experience !!

definatlley step up to 2gigs for your memory - about 25 - 35 quid, when you can afford it.

it could be that the dual core is struggling. if it is 1.8 per core it will probably only be using the one - not both at 3.6 ( ?? )

is it vista or xp - i've heard of people struggling with sh3 and vista. posts and threads are here at this forum.

other things that could help: disable anti virus and internet connection, you can turn them on again after. turn down the special effects - particle density ??

if there is a send error report note down what it says: not the whole thing just the sh3.exe stuff at the begining. some of the crew here will be able to help you with that.

as far as throwing the '....ing thing away' back-off for a while. gather your momentum ( ?? ) again and come back to it. for once you have it running smoothly with GWX and it's got its hooks in to you, it will be being depth charged, rammed, lost, missed torpedos, faulty sabotagued machinery that will drive you insane, whilling away the hours roming the empty sea for days and days will drive you nuts.

dont give up
welcome aboard

patience patience patience

flag4

[floundericiousWA]

Thanks for all the replies, everyone...let me address each:

Hmmm
IIRC doesnt the 7300 only have 128mb onboard and takes the rest from the RAM ?

Still should be enough GPU power to run the game though
If it ran ok before and not now then something has happened in between
Windows updates ?

I'm not sure about the NVIDIA card... I DID notice that, while running, when I tabbed out and checked the task manager, the sh3.exe was consuming around 500MB of memory and that physical mem was at around 8xxMB/1024MB


I've had this problem too, on my previous PC.
It can be either faulty RAM, HD, or GPU.
I would check the RAM first...take it out, and re-insert it...and make sure you're grounded, before touching the RAM-stick(-s).


Holy crap-charges, batman, I hope not... I'll certainly bump the RAM, when I do I'll take a look and see if there are any problems with the contacts and mountings.

Hum I hate to suggest this, but it almost sounds like the Vcard is packing its bags for a trip south. Any other graphic-intensive game give you any problems?

Not really...the "modern" games I've given a whirl on this include Battle for Middle Earth I and II, Empire at War, SW: KOTOR and KOTOR II

None of those have given me graphics crashes except BFMEII, which was obviously a "your computer is to damn slow to run this with as many graphical options selected" issue..

I've also recently had a problem with TES3: Morrowind freezing while running...

:up: high there flounder'

have you done any 'saving game' under water - this knackeres things up, i can speak from personal experience !!

definatlley step up to 2gigs for your memory - about 25 - 35 quid, when you can afford it.

it could be that the dual core is struggling. if it is 1.8 per core it will probably only be using the one - not both at 3.6 ( ?? )

is it vista or xp - i've heard of people struggling with sh3 and vista. posts and threads are here at this forum.

other things that could help: disable anti virus and internet connection, you can turn them on again after. turn down the special effects - particle density ??

if there is a send error report note down what it says: not the whole thing just the sh3.exe stuff at the begining. some of the crew here will be able to help you with that.

as far as throwing the '....ing thing away' back-off for a while. gather your momentum ( ?? ) again and come back to it. for once you have it running smoothly with GWX and it's got its hooks in to you, it will be being depth charged, rammed, lost, missed torpedos, faulty sabotagued machinery that will drive you insane, whilling away the hours roming the empty sea for days and days will drive you nuts.


:arrgh!: back atcha! My U-4 is feared throughout the north sea! muwhahahaha

well...at least until I've shot all 5 torpedoes, then seagulls dive bomb me with impunity :rotfl:

Mem - check, it's next on the list

I do deactivate (including the background monitoring stuff) the Trend Micro Anti-Spyware software and internet, just in case... I also kill the Ipodservice.exe and ituneshelper.exe tasks...

I've had the problem with particles turned way down, and high qual textures turned off... so I'm almost thinking the problem is with the computer hardware...maybe running out of memory so the program runs off a cliff, so to speak...

I'll try it again and post the "error report output" (for just the sh3.exe portion) when I get it...

[flag4]

look forward to reading your report.

bon voyage Flounder' :up:

[floundericiousWA]

look forward to reading your report.

bon voyage Flounder' :up:

Ok, it got me again...this time I was able to have some fun for a while, including having a V&W DD cruise right over my head while submerged off Hartlesport :up:


Then, after nightfall, while approaching the harbor, it started stuttering and then crashed...


AppName: sh3.exe AppVer: 1.4.0.1 ModName: kernel.dll
ModVer: 0.0.0.0 Offset: 00016a2

Some stuff from the actual report:

Module 1
sh3.exe
Image Base: 0x00400000 Image Size 0x00000000
Checksum: 0x000f90b7 Time Stamp: 0x32ce8647

Version Information:
Signature: feef04bd
structver 00010000
filever 1.4:0.1
prodver 1.4:0.1
flagmask: 00000017
flags 00000000
OS 00000004
filetype 00000001

Module 2
ntdll.dll
etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum


I was thinking about what ya'll said above...and I do recall reading in a PC Gamer or other Computer magazine about some of the newer video cards "claiming" to have 512MB...but really only having like 64MB and using system memory to get to the "512MB" number...

I think I should try upgrading the memory and, if that fails, upgrade the video card...

[bigboywooly]

Hmmmm kernel.dll

Is that what you always get ?

[johnno74]

My bet is bad or overheating hardware. How often does your machine completely lock up when this happens, as opposed to just SH3 exiting?

Could be out of memory. You haven't disabled your pagefile have you? SH3 uses tons of ram, particuarly with GWX. This wouldn't bring down windows tho. Check you haven't got your pagefile set to 0 mb anyway... disabling your pagefile is a bad idea IMHO, yes it can improve your machine's percieved performance in some situations, but it can also often cause out of memory crashes.

A more likely possibility is bad ram, Download a memory diagnostics iso - these can't be run under windows so they are normally a bootable CD ISO you burn to cd and pop in the drive then reboot. I've used one from microsoft which proved that my random windows bluesceens were actually caused by bad ram. I returned the cheap ram I had got, and brought 2gb of high quality (kingmax) ram which turned my pc into the most stable machine I've ever used. Instead of shutting down when I go to bed I tell it to sleep and I normally only reboot once a month or so for updates.

As for overheating... are you overclocking anything? If so go back to stock values/voltages and try. And take the case off your pc and vacumn any dust and crap out of your cpu and graphics card heatsinks. Corrupted graphics is a sure sign of an overheating or dying video card.

Hope this helps, let us know how you go.

[johnno74]

Also:

it could be that the dual core is struggling. if it is 1.8 per core it will probably only be using the one - not both at 3.6 ( ?? )
This makes no sense. His machine is a 1.8ghz dual core machine. SH3 is a single threaded app so dual core won't help much at all, but a 1.8ghz cpu is TONS for sh3.


is it vista or xp - i've heard of people struggling with sh3 and vista. posts and threads are here at this forum.

I play SH3 on vista, and I have had no problems, except for finding decent video card drivers. I've read installing can be a problem, but I just copied the whole program files\SH3 directory on my old machine over to vista and it worked great:up:


Next, the only thing i can think of with regards your CTDs that might help in the immediate future is to set SH3 to run as a high priority program through task manager
Unfortunately this is another false performance "tweak". Unless you are ripping DVDs or something silly while playing SH3 increasing the process priority will make no difference at all.

[baggygreen]

Next, the only thing i can think of with regards your CTDs that might help in the immediate future is to set SH3 to run as a high priority program through task manager
Unfortunately this is another false performance "tweak". Unless you are ripping DVDs or something silly while playing SH3 increasing the process priority will make no difference at all.Really? I cant burn or anything else other than sometimes surf the web when i play SH3, and when I upped the priority it brought about an immediate improvement. Maybe i'll just put it down to blind luck then i guess.:)

[Chock]

A few suggestions, some already pointed out.

It may be the graphics card conking out (had a similar thing happen once to an NVidia pci-X card, and it did exactly the same thing), or the RAM failing. BUT, it could just be either of them not getting adequate cooling, which has several remedies. First make sure all the fans are keeping going, second, clear all the dust off any fans, vents and heat sinks so that the air can circulate, third, make sure that everything is seated properly so that things are not conking out when they warm up and shift position due to expansion.

It could be a software glitch too, with the drivers having corrupted in some way, you could try a few remedies for that. Doing a system restore back to a point when you were not experiencing problems (back up anything vital to a safe place before doing that, as a precaution), reinstalling the graphics card software is another option, as is going to an earlier more stable version of it. A good swing at things with anti-virus and malicious software removal tools probably wouldn't hurt either.

Another somewhat obvious thing to try, is to reinstall SH3, the current installation might just be screwed and have lost some vital file or other. You can back up your save games if you want to keep a campaign going, but try it in default format after a re-install first, to check stability.

:D Chock

[johnno74]

Really? I cant burn or anything else other than sometimes surf the web when i play SH3, and when I upped the priority it brought about an immediate improvement. Maybe i'll just put it down to blind luck then i guess.:)

If you are doing other stuff which is moderately intensive - like burning a dvd while you are playing SH3, then yes, increasing the priority of SH3 WILL help :)

windows will share your CPU amongst all the apps you have running - but if anything has a priority above the others then that process will get pretty much as much cpu as it wants, and anything that is left will be split amonst the normal priority stuff.

Dual core helps with multitasking, because most apps including SH3 are single-core, so really the most cpu any one single-threaded app can use is 50% - so you have 50% left for other stuff.

What does bug me is people that shut down absolutely everyting in their system so its damn near 100% idle, then start their game at high priority and say they notice a difference.

[THE_MASK]

This might be a bit controversial but i cured my ctds by flinging the disk out the back door like a frisbee . No problems with SH4 .

[floundericiousWA]

Wow...you guys should really consider stickying or linking this thread to one of the newbie or the "help!" stickies! Thanks for all the feedback!

I'm going to keep at it with this thing (I just tried rolling back nVIDIA drivers from 163.xx to 91.xx from this past summer...I might just try rolling them back further to the 8x.xx set I've got...that was when they were stable...)

Don't forget, this system was built by HDell...so it's not necessarily fully compatible with itself :lol:

I'll post back again as I experiment with drivers and upgrades...and the occasional un-/re-install... when I figure it out or when I get it working, I'll try to provide a sequence to help others in the future!

Thanks again, gang! Happy Hunting!

...and remember, when the DD's are coming, channel a little captain FLOUNDER :arrgh!: :up:

[johnno74]

This might be a bit controversial but i cured my ctds by flinging the disk out the back door like a frisbee . No problems with SH4 .

Yes I'd say saying SH4 is more stable than SH3 would go down like a cup of cold sick around here. Listen carefully and you might hear scoffing in the distance.

By the time I discovered SH3 patch 1.4 was already out, and I don't know if I've ever had it crash on me.

I've heard SH4 has come a long way though, I hear the devs have nearly finshed it now? :arrgh!:

[PapaG39]

Several years ago I use to crash to the desktop a lot.
I finely put in a big ol top-o-the-line power supply, and I haven't ctd since...
when I updated my last computer about a year ago I put another top of the line 650 watt power supply... no problems....
It takes power to run all the crap we gamers throw at this hardware...

[siber]

It sounds crazy, but have you been messing with the power supply fans?

I used to have CTDs occasionally after about the same amount of time, and the only thing that had changed was that I'd moved house(!!!) :damn:

Turns out my power supply fan was blowing 'out' rather than sucking air in, thus removing smooth airflow from my case. My graphics card was simply overheating and after about an hour, it would conk out causing a CTD.

My new house (with double glazing!) happens to be warmer than my old one, thus prompting the overheating issue. Make sure your fans all pull in the same direction.

Otherwise, what they ^^^ all said...

[floundericiousWA]

Several years ago I use to crash to the desktop a lot.
I finely put in a big ol top-o-the-line power supply, and I haven't ctd since...
when I updated my last computer about a year ago I put another top of the line 650 watt power supply... no problems....
It takes power to run all the crap we gamers throw at this hardware...

The owner's guide for mine says it has a 375 watt power supply...does that seem weak?

[Chock]

Yes, that PSU does seem a bit on the soft side. It may indeed supply enough power to the thing when it's running MS Word or whatever, but the moment you start adding bits and peripherals to your computer, and then taxing the PSU with a 3D application, it could become a weak link in the chain. So it is perfectly possible for the thing to just say 'sod this', and check out on you (either temporarily, or permanently, sometimes you smell burning, sometimes not). I've had both versions of that scenario, and it took me a while to figure it was that when I was having the old blue screen of death. Now I always use heavy duty PSUs, as they have plenty of leeway for adding other bits and pieces, such as network cards and the like without leaving the GPU short on juice.

If you do uprate the PSU (which is easy to do by the way, it's just a few posi screws and a bit of reconnecting wires, but taking a photo of where things go before you disconnect stuff to assist you, is a good idea. Unplug it from the mains too, unless you want to die. Also make sure you have one that has the same plug for the motherboard as your old type, there is more than one sort, so take your old PSU out and compare the main plug on it to the one you are considering buying), then be aware that you may need to add another fan to the case somewhere to assist cooling, there are usually extra unused vent locations on a PC case for this purpose (sometimes you have to remove metal panels that have weakened 'break lines' on them to clear the holes for the vent) and there are also usually a number of pins on the motherboard which you can take power for the fans from, if you haven't got a manual for your motherboard (not unlikely if it is a Dell), do a search on the net for a diagram of your motherboard and it will mark locations or power points for fans. If you need to know what type of motherboard it is, do a search on the net for a little utility called CPU-Z (shareware, or free if you are too cheap to donate LOL), this analyses your system and tells you the spec of all your stuff in your PC.

:D Chock

[Fenris_Wolf]

Ok, I have a few suggestions for OP.

- Make sure that all the RAM modules, or sticks, are of the same make, speed and model number, if you have multiple ones.

- Download and run a program called Memtest.exe (freeware). It will run in DOS mode and take an hour or two to thoroughly test the RAM installed in your CPU.

- For troubleshooting use stock SH3 with latest patch only (without GWX or any other addons like the SH4 effects pack by RB or the high resolution dll).

- Try to run the game in Windows 2000 compatibility mode.

- Driver settings (important): Make sure that the features that SH3 does not support are disabled in the global video driver settings, or set to auto if that's not possible.

- Hard disk: There should not be any bad sectors on the hard disk.

- Paging file (virtual memory): Increase paging file size (fixed, not windows managed) to approx. 3-4 GB.

- Old save files (important): Delete older saved files of your current career from the SH3 folder in my documents.

- CPU / video card voltages and temperatures: These must be normal. No overclocking.

- Sound card (important!): Update the sound card drivers, or play the game without sound (if it runs that way) by disabling or removing the sound card (only to see if this piece of hardware is the problem).

- BIOS Settings: Make sure the processor's L1 and L2 cache are enabled and the RAM timings are set to "By SPD" or default. If your video card is AGP interface then select AGP aperture size = 64mb.

[flag4]

hi johno74

previous to my now 2.4 engine i ran a 1.8 and sh3 struggled on that, dont know why, cause the other hardware is still the same, ie, graphics card motherboard etc.
this is why i suggested it, cause it happened to me...

flag4

[floundericiousWA]

Ok, I have a few suggestions for OP.

- Make sure that all the RAM modules, or sticks, are of the same make, speed and model number, if you have multiple ones.

Ok, I was wondering about that...I'll probably bump to 2GB and see how the puter is doing...I CAN upgrade to 4GB...but dont' know that I need to spend that much money (especially if bumping to 2GB does the trick)...

- Download and run a program called Memtest.exe (freeware). It will run in DOS mode and take an hour or two to thoroughly test the RAM installed in your CPU.

I'll try it!

- For troubleshooting use stock SH3 with latest patch only (without GWX or any other addons like the SH4 effects pack by RB or the high resolution dll).

Check!

- Try to run the game in Windows 2000 compatibility mode.

Huh...ok, i'll try it! Can't hurt! :)

- Driver settings (important): Make sure that the features that SH3 does not support are disabled in the global video driver settings, or set to auto if that's not possible.

Can someone point me to these? edit: that is, what features on a modern NVIDIA card are not supported by SH3? recall that it ran fine on stock settings...NVIDIA's control panel DOES have a program specific template for sh3.exe!

- Hard disk: There should not be any bad sectors on the hard disk.

I defrag regularly...no bad sectors that I've seen on the reports...

- Paging file (virtual memory): Increase paging file size (fixed, not windows managed) to approx. 3-4 GB.

I'll give that a try...current page file is like 1.4GB or 1.5GB

- Old save files (important): Delete older saved files of your current career from the SH3 folder in my documents.

Check...every time I try something new, now, this will be a consistent step. Question: Do you guys just DELETE the SH3 folder or go in and snipe the saves?

- CPU / video card voltages and temperatures: These must be normal. No overclocking.

After running SH3 for a while (or any other 3D game) the NVIDIA temperature readings are still nowhere near 100 deg C (usually around 65-75)...when I put my hand near the frontside vents, I can FEEL the inflow zipping into the computer...

- Sound card (important!): Update the sound card drivers, or play the game without sound (if it runs that way) by disabling or removing the sound card (only to see if this piece of hardware is the problem).

I've tried updating the sound drivers...but I'll check again... FWIW, I turned off music and still had the problem, but music emulation and digital sound aren't the same I suppose...

- BIOS Settings: Make sure the processor's L1 and L2 cache are enabled and the RAM timings are set to "By SPD" or default. If your video card is AGP interface then select AGP aperture size = 64mb.

My motherboard is a PCI-Express...I'll take a look at the BIOS (for my system F2 at the splash screen after power on)..actually I'd not thought of that..I flashed my BIOS late spring/early summer..it MAY have reset some of those settings! :up: (not that I know it'll work, but it shook that loose from the dusty innards of my conn)

You know...thinking about it... my computer, earlier this year, was next to a baseboard heater...some of the wires on the back side got pretty damned hot (I noticed this after a month or two and pulled the computer about 6 inches further away from the heater and rerouted the cables)... that might have damaged something...

[Fenris_Wolf]

The nvidia global driver settings that have caused problems and given me CTD's on patrol startup include some fancy advanced anti-aliasing settings and one or two other ones. Just do a search of the forums and you should find plenty of tips about the right settings.

As for RAM. My secondary/work computer has 1GB RAM, 2.4 ghz single core hyper-threading proc, nvidia 6800 AGP video card and it used to run SH3 just fine, or even just as good as my new one. Never had any problems. There is a freeware program called Memturbo that you can use to free up memory before firing up SH3 or just to see if there is not enough for SH3.

Your 1.8 processor -should- be able to run the game imo. If I were you I would troubleshoot the problem first and if it turns out that the processor is too slow, I would overclock it :arrgh!: However, I think 65-75 degrees celcius is still a somewhat high temperature for your video card. It should not go above 60-65 imho. An easy and cheap way to add cooling is to take off the CPU cover and put a table fan infront of it :lol:

[floundericiousWA]

The nvidia global driver settings that have caused problems and given me CTD's on patrol startup include some fancy advanced anti-aliasing settings and one or two other ones. Just do a search of the forums and you should find plenty of tips about the right settings.

As for RAM. My secondary/work computer has 1GB RAM, 2.4 ghz single core hyper-threading proc, nvidia 6800 AGP video card and it used to run SH3 just fine, or even just as good as my new one. Never had any problems. There is a freeware program called Memturbo that you can use to free up memory before firing up SH3 or just to see if there is not enough for SH3.

Your 1.8 processor -should- be able to run the game imo. If I were you I would troubleshoot the problem first and if it turns out that the processor is too slow, I would overclock it :arrgh!: However, I think 65-75 degrees celcius is still a somewhat high temperature for your video card. It should not go above 60-65 imho. An easy and cheap way to add cooling is to take off the CPU cover and put a table fan infront of it :lol:


EGADS! I think the pagefile increase might have gotten it!

I bumped it from 1.5GB (range of 1.5GB to 1.5GB) to a range of 3GB to 4GB

I just ran a very satisfying patrol up the coast of england, including all the places/things where the game would ctd or get graphical gremlins (ever had the fluorescent yellow graphical error before?:huh: ) ...and, while it slowed down a little during 1024x compression a few times, it didn't CTD like it has... fingers crossed!!!:up:

[bigboywooly]

Good news
Fingers crossed indeed

[floundericiousWA]

note: I'm STILL planning to upgrade my physical mem from 1 GB to 2GB (I MIGHT get frisky and go for 4GB :D)

[Fenris_Wolf]

Ahah! :up: :smug:

it slowed down a little during 1024x compression

Someone here claimed that increasing the task priority for sh3.exe in the task manager (press ctrl+alt+delete to bring it up) to "high" helps greatly with that problem. Try it. I think you're all set. :up:

Now go out there and
SINK THEM ALL! :rock:

[floundericiousWA]

note: I'm STILL planning to upgrade my physical mem from 1 GB to 2GB (I MIGHT get frisky and go for 4GB :D)

Follow up...

about $60 and a few weeks later... I've now added 2GB of Crucial PC2-5300 memory to my machine...and the problems have stopped! :-)

[kiwi_2005]

Your PC's fine to play SH3. Get rid of Starforce and your crashing will probably stop.

[Abd_von_Mumit]

I've been fighting an identical problem for a few days and today finally got GWX 2.0 working on my machine, that doesn't meet almost any requirements (not even minimum, not to mention the suggested). I've read this thread as well as many other similar on this and other Forums to find a solution. This one was the most helpful and instructive – thank you all for all the know-how you shared with us.

In my case the solution was to simply enlarge RAM capacity (I doubled it and it's still under the minimum requirements). Now I enjoy my first GWX 2.0 patrol.

Thank you all.

[TomcatMVD]

I play stock SHIII under Vista, using a GeForce 6200 LE, got a PIV 3.2Ghz and I have 1GB RAM DDR2, and I don't have any such problems.
I got the crazy idea about trying SHIV...:oops: Man.... do not try it!