The beginning of the end of free speech

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,514872,00.html

This situation is something that has concerned me increasingly over the past months, since this summer. I already have repeatdely disucssed it with a lawyer whom I met repatedly in summer due to some completey other issues.

I concluded that from beginning 2008 on, I will need to hide much of my opinions on the political developement and Islam from dicussion on the web, and telephone. Due to already valid anti-discirmination laws, much of my resistance to Islam, for example, would qualify as hate-speech and racism, and I could be sued for it. With the new surveillance and data storage, I was told, the likelihood is no longer unrealistic or minimal that I would find myself in court for participating in a discussion like some of those we had over here in the past. Also, much expression of political rejection of EU policies, like I often voiced, could get me into trouble.

What is it all about? You have one law (anti-discrimination), that effectively prevents you from voicing criticism of any religion in general, and islam in special, you are also hiddenly forbidden to resist helping and supporting the spreading of Islam and foreign colonization or immigration in general. I told you that I am in support of a civil rights movement over here that has (succeessfully) prevented the illegal increasing of an already existing basement mosque. This initiative already has repeatedly been targetted on the basis of these anti-discimination laws - and it was only some months since they became valid! So the risk is real. This same law also could be used to brandmark you as an extremist dangerous to national safety if you voice your rejection of, for example, the EU too enthusiastically, so this is an hint that you are getting prohibited from being against the official policy of the EU, or the government (implementing over 80% of the demands from Brussel without debate and most often in violation of the german constitution) . - At the same time now comes a new law, that puts all lawyers, journalists, doctors, priest, and private person under total and complete electronic surveillance, storing their data (IP, time, date) for at least half a year, and since the content you send over the web, for example, is there, and now could be linked in time and date to your computer'S IP, your identity could be revealed, always. this has always been the case, but it was not used by the state in a total and complete assault against all and everyone. - Eh, really? It has become known that when you click the official sites of government offices and ministries - you already end up in such surveillance routines for a not mentioned longer period of time. especially the ministry of justice if famous for doing so, and is even trying to install Trojans on your PC when you contact them. Take it with a sense of humour, I suggest! If you play with the snakes, don't be surprised if you get bitten. Active online searches of user'S web-connected PCs also are in the making, and though currently being hindred by oppositional voices, it will come sooner or later, I am sure.

Like in the US, all this latest legal stunt is coming under the ridiculous umbrella of "war on terror". As if any terrorist nowadays would be stupid enough to exchange sensible data with other bombslingers from his to their laptop in their private homes. They do not do that, of course, they use latest encryption technology, public places, internet cafes and such - all the things that will lead the investigators into empty spaces only. Police knows that, and says these new laws will help to fight standard small crime only, but will do nothing about terror prevention. The politicians must know it as well, I suppose.

So why? Obviously the side effects of these laws nevertheless sound tempting for some, so that they want these changes even if their use for fighting terror tends to be close to nill. It is about establishing the control of the state over the opinion building and saying of it's citizens, which more and more seem to be understood as a state property, and a EU property. It is about a mad sense of almost fashistoid collectivism, which shows it's face in the criminal energy to prevent europeans having a word over the EU constitution, the powerful ambitions of the EU to establish a tyranny of bureaucrats over the european people, a drive of political parties to control public media (in this context see the aimed-for changes in the German TV and radio system which will give parties more influence over the program and the power to publish their own stuff that has been refused by the public in a voluntary broadcasting project - people did not wish to listen to those silly debates in the bundestag, so now it must be enforced onto them), a yearning for making any resistance to official political opinion and projects such as the selling off of europe to Islam impossible and putting such resisting opinion under penalty, and establishing a total control of the state over every aspect of a person'S life from the cradle to the grave. A uniform collective replacing democratic, free society is the goal of thisa agenda, and if you look at the many political mistakes and flawed policies (that you and me sometimes discuss here in the forum and express our disgust with) from this perspective, then suddenly it all falls into an apparently fitting place, and what appears to be perversions before, suddenly becomes the message of a new, unfree normality.

Elections do not have a meaning anymore. EU takes over unilateral decision making powers from national parliaments, and national constitutions are being deconstructed more and more. Unwanted oppositional opinion on and rejecting to assist policies, cultural deconstruction of europe, refusing one's own historical identity, and islamisation of europe, gets prevented and is being put under penalty, or gets manipulated by implementing perception patterns in the young that make them control themselves in accordance with these goals. the best tyranny is from inside people's heads, when every criticism and different opinion is brandmarked by the masses themselves to be extremist, to be subversive, x-y-z-phobic, non-solidaric, and the hell knows what. The dependance of the single person from the state gets increased and enforced, often people get lured into voluntary submitting to the state's more and more total authority. we all must be the same. We all must be one. One collective. One template. One party.

The many symptoms of degeneration and politically wanted deconstruction of democratic basic principles make very much sense to me.

We are no longer free. That's what it all is about, and the different choices of voting we are being given, are illusory only. Were we do not submit voluntarily, we more and more get forced by pressure to submit. Democracy was a nice chapter in history, but for the most, it is over. It became a victim of it's own inherent weaknesses.

By content, I have talked about this with that lawyer I mentioned in the beginning. He said, already right now in principle I could be sued for a posting like this, and for major parts of my opinion.

Okay, let it come, baby - sue me. If that would ever happen for real, I would no longer object the use of violence to resist this amok-running political madness in Europe, on the basis of mopst elemental self-defense. Oooops - for that statement I can be sued as well. :oops:

[Camaero]

Ah, the decay of civilization.

[DeepIron]

We are no longer free. That's what it all is about, and the different choices of voting we are being given, are illusory only. Were we do not submit voluntarily, we more and more get forced by pressure to submit. Democracy was a nice chapter in history, but for the most, it is over. It became a victim of it's own inherent weaknesses.

"V for Vendetta" comes to mind...

When the day comes that my First Amendment right to Free Speech is taken from me, I shall exercise to it's fullest extent the Second Amendment, the right to own and bear arms.

I have been concerned from the day that Homeland Security was created to "keep America safe from terrorists" that my personal freedoms and rights would be eroded away in the name or guise of "The War of Terror". Wire taps, airport "security", blah, blah, blah... nothing more than keeping the sheep in line...

The only criminals I see are the ones running my government...

[Tchocky]

Hey guys, don't worry, we've set up a "Free Speech Zone" for y'all...

[Hitman]

We are no longer free. That's what it all is about, and the different choices of voting we are being given, are illusory only. Were we do not submit voluntarily, we more and more get forced by pressure to submit. Democracy was a nice chapter in history, but for the most, it is over. It became a victim of it's own inherent weaknesses.


We have NEVER been free. I'm amazed that someone as intelligent as you has taken so long to realize this :hmm:

[STEED]

Welcome to the real world Skybird, hold on to your pants you seen nothing yet.

End Times. ;)

[Skybird]

Most often, you know the truth from early on. But you often need much additonal time until you admit to yourself that it is for real indeed.

[STEED]

Most often, you know the truth from early on. But you often need much additonal time until you admit to yourself that it is for real indeed.

2+2=5
If they say it's five it's five and the masses will believe it, except some of us who have woken up and can see things that are coming.

[waste gate]

Most often, you know the truth from early on. But you often need much additonal time until you admit to yourself that it is for real indeed.

Such a 'black and white' statement is almost impossible to fathom coming from you Skybird.:D

Are you sure you don't have some American in you? :hmm:

[DeepIron]

Most often, you know the truth from early on. But you often need much additonal time until you admit to yourself that it is for real indeed. I think this is because most people genuinely want to believe the best is possible in any given situation. I'm pretty convinced the world is collectively "going to hell in a handbasket", but I want to believe that individuals are still capable of truthful and noble ideas and actions...

[TteFAboB]

Ignore and carry on, like these guys: http://bartonbulletin.wordpress.com/2007/10/29/political-correctness-runs-amok-words-spoken-in-funeral-flag-folding-draw-flap/

[P_Funk]

So the question is, should I even bother having kids, or would that be a very horrible thing to do to them?:-?

You know its reading through things like this that I begin to understand people that bomb government buildings and join secret militias. I feel that outrage well up in me and I imagine all that happening in my country (cause it will eventually, even if Canada seems to resist the stronger measures a bit right now) and I begin to contemplate how others can feel so angry as to get violent. This is like that other thread about street gangs and where they come from. You feel powerless and marginalized and you can see feeling like theres no other direction to go in.

Viva la revolution...

[Skybird]

You guys knowing whom I see as some kind of an idol, for myself, not having a better word for it? You would be surprised: Hagen of Tronje.

Now, this is a tragic dark figure. in the Nibelungen saga, he is the close advisor, personal friend and army leader of the Franconian king, Gunther, like his whole family has served for generations to the royal family. when Siegfried showed up in the saga, he stole a lot of fame and reputation from the Franconian king (although not aiming for it, or being aware of it), and all shine of what Hagen believed in was in danger to dissappear. So he decided to kill Siegfried, and Gunther and his brothers agreed, so that the Franconian kingdom may regain triumph in the name of it's own greatness, not Siegfrieds naive and uncaring acts that illustrated that he was more lucky than being a ripe, responsible character. for me, siegfried was an powerful but stupoid idiot who could not value what he had been given, and took it for granted instead. Life was easy on him, and served him on a silver plate what others had to work bitterly hard for. Hagen also knew that for this service history would recall him as the evil villain.

Later, Siegfried's wife Kriemhild (king Gunther's sister) swore revenge. she married king Attila, and followed him to his far away kingdom. From there, she decided to take revenge on her Royal family, and to see them getting wiped out to the last man for allowing her husband getting murdered for the fame of the Franconian kingdom. She sent a message that she is forgiving them, and invited them to a family celebration.

Again, Hagen proved his unshaken loyalty to the (weak) king, warning him that it is a trap and if they would go to Attila'S castle, it would mean their ultimate fall, and death for all. when Gunther and his brothers decided to accept the invitation, Hagen wass left free to choose wether he goes with them, or not, and although he knew that Kriemhild was very much aware that he was the one assassinating her husband, he called all the army to arms, and choosed to follow his king, loyal in the face of clear knowledge that they all would find their death at Attila'S castle.

when they arrived, Attila and Gunther, both not wishing to wage war against each other, tried to remain in control, but events unfolded that resulted in Hagen rejecting to disarmr his army (leaving them unprotected to the lust to murder of Kriemhild), and killing Attilas son instead, which led to open war between the heavily armed Nibelungen army (the Franconians, named after the Nibelungen treasure that Siegfried had found and given to Gunther, after Hagen killed Siegfried he sank all the gold in the Rhine, cursing it for having brought all that pity and fading of glory over the Franconians), and the lightly armed, but numercially superior army of the Huns. The battle unfolding was terrible, and the Franconians waded in blood like butchers, killing twenty huns for each of their own men falling. the castle goes up in flames, and several attempts to negotiate surrender got refused by the Franconians. In the end, only Gunther and Hagen were left, with the castle in ruins, and the Huns having suffered terrible losses - too much as if they could call it a victory. Hagen, now in chains, finally was confronted by Kriemhild showing him the head of her brother, king Gunther, who was executed on her command. when Hagen refused in disgust to tell her where he hid the treasure of siegfried, she killed him as well. A former friend of Hagen, living at attila'S castle since years, saw this courageous, loyal man and his king, Gunther, being murdered by this icy cold fanatical beast of a woman, and was so outraged that he drew his sword and slaughtered her as well. This was the end of the Nibelungen.

As you see, i have a very different view of Hagen than what most sources and versions of the saga describe him as. Usually he is described as the evil villain, the saga's pendant to Darth Vader. but whatever he did - he did it with determination, but also with a greater goal on mind: not to allow the one quality he believed in to be betrayed: the shine and glory of the franconian kingdom, which in the saga functions as a place of light, justice, and peace. He accepts to ruin his and his family's reputation, and takes the burden to become a murderer, in defense of this what he had identified to be the centre of light, so to speak. He also had an almost Prussian sense of serving, and loyalty. and he did not give up on these even in the face of doom, trying to defend his king against all odds, and although his king made a terrible mistake when accepting that lethal invitation.

That's why I have sympathy for Hagen. I do not see him as a completely dark figure. He is a tragic hero with whom history (the history of the saga) dealt with in a most unjust way to express some qualities of values that else would have remained in the hidden.

Please do not compare all this to what the Nazis made of it when talking of "Nibelungen-Treue". they gave the story, and so many others as well, a very serious twist, to abuse it for their own evil purpsoes. You all know it, and I know it too. No need to discuss this.

The Nibelungen-Lied is embedded in a circle of several other sagas as well, and together with the saga around king arthur, and some ancient Greek sagas, it is the greatest stuff of this kind that I know.

[waste gate]

You guys knowing whom I see as some kind of an idol, for myself, not having a better word for it? You would be surprised: Hagen of Tronje.

Now, this is a tragic dark figure. in the Nibelungen saga, he is the close advisor, personal friend and army leader of the Franconian king, Gunther, like his whole family has served for generations to the royal family. when Siegfried showed up in the saga, he stole a lot of fame and reputation from the Franconian king (although not aiming for it, or being aware of it), and all shine of what Hagen believed in was in danger to dissappear. So he decided to kill Siegfried, and Gunther and his brothers agreed, so that the Franconian kingdom may regain triumph in the name of it's own greatness, not Siegfrieds naive and uncaring acts that illustrated that he was more lucky than being a ripe, responsible character. for me, siegfried was an powerful but stupoid idiot who could not value what he had been given, and took it for granted instead. Life was easy on him, and served him on a silver plate what others had to work bitterly hard for. Hagen also knew that for this service history would recall him as the evil villain.

Later, Siegfried's wife Kriemhild (king Gunther's sister) swore revenge. she married king Attila, and followed him to his far away kingdom. From there, she decided to take revenge on her Royal family, and to see them getting wiped out to the last man for allowing her husband getting murdered for the fame of the Franconian kingdom. She sent a message that she is forgiving them, and invited them to a family celebration.

Again, Hagen proved his unshaken loyalty to the (weak) king, warning him that it is a trap and if they would go to Attila'S castle, it would mean their ultimate fall, and death for all. when Gunther and his brothers decided to accept the invitation, Hagen wass left free to choose wether he goes with them, or not, and although he knew that Kriemhild was very much aware that he was the one assassinating her husband, he called all the army to arms, and choosed to follow his king, loyal in the face of clear knowledge that they all would find their death at Attila'S castle.

when they arrived, Attila and Gunther, both not wishing to wage war against each other, tried to remain in control, but events unfolded that resulted in Hagen rejecting to disarmr his army (leaving them unprotected to the lust to murder of Kriemhild), and killing Attilas son instead, which led to open war between the heavily armed Nibelungen army (the Franconians, named after the Nibelungen treasure that Siegfried had found and given to Gunther, after Hagen killed Siegfried he sank all the gold in the Rhine, cursing it for having brought all that pity and fading of glory over the Franconians), and the lightly armed, but numercially superior army of the Huns. The battle unfolding was terrible, and the Franconians waded in blood like butchers, killing twenty huns for each of their own men falling. the castle goes up in flames, and several attempts to negotiate surrender got refused by the Franconians. In the end, only Gunther and Hagen were left, with the castle in ruins, and the Huns having suffered terrible losses - too much as if they could call it a victory. Hagen, now in chains, finally was confronted by Kriemhild showing him the head of her brother, king Gunther, who was executed on her command. when Hagen refused in disgust to tell her where he hid the treasure of siegfried, she killed him as well. A former friend of Hagen, living at attila'S castle since years, saw this courageous, loyal man and his king, Gunther, being murdered by this icy cold fanatical beast of a woman, and was so outraged that he drew his sword and slaughtered her as well. This was the end of the Nibelungen.

As you see, i have a very different view of Hagen than what most sources and versions of the saga describe him as. Usually he is described as the evil villain, the saga's pendant to Darth Vader. but whatever he did - he did it with determination, but also with a greater goal on mind: not to allow the one quality he believed in to be betrayed: the shine and glory of the franconian kingdom, which in the saga functions as a place of light, justice, and peace. He accepts to ruin his and his family's reputation, and takes the burden to become a murderer, in defense of this what he had identified to be the centre of light, so to speak. He also had an almost Prussian sense of serving, and loyalty. and he did not give up on these even in the face of doom, trying to defend his king against all odds, and although his king made a terrible mistake when accepting that lethal invitation.

That's why I have sympathy for Hagen. I do not see him as a completely dark figure. He is a tragic hero with whom history (the history of the saga) dealt with in a most unjust way to express some qualities of values that else would have remained in the hidden.

Please do not compare all this to what the Nazis made of it when talking of "Nibelungen-Treue". they gave the story, and so many others as well, a very serious twist, to abuse it for their own evil purpsoes. You all know it, and I know it too. No need to discuss this.

The Nibelungen-Lied is embedded in a circle of several other sagas as well, and together with the saga around king arthur, and some ancient Greek sagas, it is the greatest stuff of this kind that I know.

Stop trying to push your Aryan idolitry on the rest of us. One thread has already been closed today already.

[Skybird]

Judging by the sound and smell of it, a wastegate has just opened and closed somewhere again.

[waste gate]

Judging by the sound and smell of it, a wastegate has just opened and closed somewhere again.

Personal attacks only show your guilt.

[Skybird]

Look look, WG has (once again) rediscovered his sense for politeness and correctness.

Pathetic! But I admire your sense for opportunistic timing.

Now, when you haven't something to contribute to this thread, which was very much clean until you showed up, why don't you just stay away, instead of stirring unrest.

Bye.

[waste gate]

Look look, WG has (once again) rediscovered his sense for politeness and correctness.

Pathetic! But I admire your sense for opportunistic timing.

Now, when you haven't something to contribute to this thread, which was very much clean until you showed up, why don't you just stay away, instead of stirring unrest.

Bye.

I wasn't the one who brought the Aryian idolitry to the thread. Don't blame me for your poor choices.

EDIT: Yes, when I see wrong I will call people on it. Because free speach works both ways my friend. When you learn that you will be in a position to make a fuss.

[Camaero]

Having intellectual debates or even arguments with someone is one thing, but going out of your way to attack them over silly things is quite another.

I thought so anyway.

[Kipparikalle]

Well, well my gentlements, let's not start good ol' flamewar right?
You know how it always ends. Let's just stay on topic.



I am very worried about the status of Finland, the army had to get smaller (by removing 100,000 men from the forces) The army budjet is getting lower and lower. Denmark and Sweden are trying to remove the farming from Finland (they are jealous because we sell farmed stuff to them. Sweden farming sucks, so they have to buy most off the food from us)
Thanks a lot EU, now I'm thinking about joining to Russian's side.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

what a world we live in... :roll:

[Chock]

Well, strictly speaking, all that Nibelungen/Wagnerian/Nietzsche stuff was a prevalent attitude in the German military in WW1 too among the officers, which was well before Adolf and the boys came along and used it. Check this out:

'A whole swarm of Frenchmen upon him, with a bullet through his head, he fell from an altitude of 3,000 metres - a beautiful death.'

That was Manfred Von Richthofen's description of the destruction of his close friend and fellow nobleman, Count Erich von Holck, in May 1916.

Another from June 1917, relating the destruction of his former two-seater pilot when the Baron was an observer/gunner:

'Perhaps it was best for him, for he knew the end of his life was just ahead of him. It would have been terrible if he had been tormented slowly. So this was a beautiful hero's death.'

If that isn't taking all that saga stuff to heart and using it to make war seem great, then I don't know what is. Not trying to be argumentive in pointing this out by the way, just noting that it was twisted for military purposes well before the Nazis came along. Same thing happened in the UK of course, with all that 'Dulce et decorum est' nonsense.

:D Chock

[Skybird]

Look look, WG has (once again) rediscovered his sense for politeness and correctness.

Pathetic! But I admire your sense for opportunistic timing.

Now, when you haven't something to contribute to this thread, which was very much clean until you showed up, why don't you just stay away, instead of stirring unrest.

Bye.

I wasn't the one who brought the Aryian idolitry to the thread. Don't blame me for your poor choices.

EDIT: Yes, when I see wrong I will call people on it. Because free speach works both ways my friend. When you learn that you will be in a position to make a fuss.

Problem is you are always too self-convinced as that you ever could see the many wrongs in yourself. That goes so far that you even do not comprehend completely what somebody has written, or leave unwanted details intentionally out. where your standards are not sufficient to judge a statement, an opinion, an essay, whatever, and where the scale by which you measure it is too small and simple, you nevertheless claim the morally superior ground and demand others to minimize themselves, instead of you trying to grow. You always claim a position of moral superiority, whereas the truth is you just try to provoke, by the massive use of political rethorics and PC phrases that you arbitrarily switch on and off as they are of opportunistic use to you, and on which you play like a musician plays on the keys of a piano. You tell others what they should not do, should not say, and you complain when somebody does the same towards you. Some people maybe buy that kind of stuff of yours. I don't. that'S why I leave you alone for the most. And I just wish you would answer me that favour on equal terms, and leave me alone as well.

----

Back on the matter: it seems there is some confusion on what I was about. First, there are different versions of the saga, some have not much to do with the way it is told today. In some nordic context, Hagen was half-brother of Gunther, and son of a mortal and an elve. There he killed some evil demon, to rescue the gods.

the version I referred to has two main actors: Hagen, and Siegfried. Siegfried is the somewhat naive hero in shining armour who expects to be irresistible simply because he is what he is: Siegfried. You can't say he is arrogant by intention or easiness, he just does not know it better, indeed he is helpful, he helped gunther on several occasions, he won battles for him, he won him his wife, he gave him the nibelungen treasure, he acts unselfish. But still, from this innocent naivety and almost provoking self-esteem comes great tragedy and evil. the brighter you shine yourself, the darker all others appear around you in the shine of your lights burning, the more fame you have yourself, the more minimal appear the fame of the others. If you ignore this for too long, like siegfried, admiration turns into dissatisfaction, and dissatisfaction turns into hostility. nobody wants to live in the shadow of a man compared to whom one's own virtues and reputation is always marginalized.

Hagen, on the other hand, indeed was sad and miserable when perceiving what Siegfried's presence caused to the kindgdom of Burgund. Siegfried overshined everything, and did so without effort. It's bad enough if you are overtaken by someone, it is even worse if this somebody turns to you while overtaking you and make mockery of you. but the worst is if he overtakes you - and even does not need to take notice of your efforts to keep up. Siegfried minimized the shine and reputation of Burgund and his kingdom. But Hagen'S family had served the kings of Burgund since long, with loyalty and conviction, seeing it as the centre of civilization, a place of light, justice, peace and happiness for the people, ruled by a just king. All this was in danger to get downplayed, not becasue Siegfried wanted that, but simply becasue he existed.

Hagen accepted to need to betray his principles of honour and knightship, in order to save the higher casue: the reputation of the kingdom, and the king. He accepted to turn on a dark path, knowing that his own reputation would be in shatters, forever. And when he later had repeatedly the occasion to save his life, he valued it lower than the cause he voted for instead: he followed his king to Attila's castle, iknowing that it would mean war and death for them all, but he tried to serve and protect them, and when Kriemhild asked him to chnage his life for the secret of where the treasure was hidden, he refused to grant her the final and total victory.

Kriemhild is another provoking figure in this story. At first she is the innocent victim. In the end she is the greatest of all evil-doersin the saga. the young girl falls in love with the shining hero, and marries him. Her own family spins intrigues against her husband, and finally sees him getting murdered. In a way, even her desire for revenge is understandable, from a standpoint of considering human nature. but where does the justice in that end, and where does injustice begin? for her revenge, she lies to Attila. Atila'S son gets killed, then hundreds of Franconian knights get killed, thousands of Atttila's bowmen and ifnantry get killed, then all her family get killed, and finally her brother, king gunther, and Hagen. Is that still the just revenge of an innocent women who has suffered the great injustice and lost her husband? Hardly. would she have turned out to be such an inhumane, cold monster without Hagen killing Siegfried? Probably not. She, too, is tragic in the dimension of her murderous wrong-doing. Like Hagen is tragic in his self-sacrificing defense of the old order he believed in, and like Siegfried is tragic in causing a malaise by simply being the naive, irresistable, friendly guy that he is.

The Nibelungen saga is thus a story of drama and tragedy, and if somebody thinks he must refer to the pervertion the Nazis made of it, their pathetic cult and murderous mass killing, like they made perversions of some many pieces of arts, I cannot help him, for Nazism or Aryanism has no place here. I already said it in the original posting: leave the Nazis and their perverted sense of "Nibelungen-Treue" out of this. Those Nazis following this Nibelungen-Treue - did not act by such complex motives like Hagen did, and did not realize that they were sacrificing themselves not in the defense of noblesse, light and justice (Burgund), but in defense of evil and darkness (the Führer), and they also did not realize that they were causing themselves a criminal reputatation, but considered their doing to be morally good and right in itself. In no way you can compare the Nazis to Hagen as I understand him.

In the end it is a story about weak (Gunther) and strong (Hagen, Siegfried) people, and men who follow while other men decide (in the end, making bad decisions). On the other hand: if Gunther would have rejected the invitation to Attila's castle (or Etzel, as he is called in the saga), it would have been a constellation of great offense, and loosing honour, which eventually could have led to a later war as well.

For reference, I do not base of the opera by Wagner. I can'T stand Wagner'S operas, they are too long, although I know some pieces of music from them that are of the most beautful music I know of. I base on literature source exclusively.

[Skybird]

If that isn't taking all that saga stuff to heart and using it to make war seem great, then I don't know what is.

Not wanting to attack you, but it seems to me that you do not know the saga indeed, Chock. ;) While war plays a role in the saga, it does not glorify it, nor does it wish for it. I would say that by the sounding of words, Homer for example is far more glorifying war, than this saga is (on the other hand: I have never read the medieval orioginal script of the nibelungenlied). Problem is: Nibelungen saga is associated with evil wicked Germany, while Homer is the ancient noble Greece. I tried to explain the far more complex constellations and motives behind it. do not forget: in the saga, this war you see to have been glorified - leads not to shine andd glory, but to the fall of the heroes, the fall of the kingdom of Burgund, and the compelte annihilation of the Royal family, and the loss of all wealth.

Glorification? You follow the Nazi's pervert arguing here (don't feel attacked, I know you are not aNazi). Read the saga again. It has been set up in so many forms and books. Some paint Hagen and siegfried very superficially, others reveal them to be more complex characters. The best version I know - is still the 60 pages version in a collection of german and nordic sagas I was given in my youth. :lol:

[Takeda Shingen]

Skybird was using a story based on Norse mythology as an analogy. Richard Wagner did the same thing to illustrate his initially anarchist, and later Shopenhaurian leanings. Of course, it is interesting that Wagner is so frequently labeled as some sort of proto-Nazi, given his blatently leftist political philosophy. Wagner and Hitler, had they actually met, would not have gotten along very well, but I digress.

This would be little different from a resident American using Paul Bunyan or John Henry stories to make his point. Accordingly, the fact that a group of men in the 1930's hijacked these stories for their own evil intentions does not negate the purpose of Skybird's post, nor does it label Skybird as any type of Aryian supremacist. This was clearly not his intention, nor did it come across this way.

However, attacking people by taking cheap shots at them will get you labeled.

The Management

[Tchocky]

However, attacking people by taking cheap shots at them will get you labeled.

The Management

.....Fascist :p

[DeepIron]

However, attacking people by taking cheap shots at them will get you labeled.

The Management

Democrat...;)

[Chock]

Skybird, perhaps I didn't phrase it very well. I know the saga doesn't glorify war of itself, but not unlike a lot of sagas and folk tales, glorifies deeds of self sacrifice, which is what the military liked to latch onto. Of course self sacrifice is indeed very noble, but twisting it to suit military ambitions, which many have done and most certainly not only in Germany, is not.

To expand upon what I initially noted, although von Richthofen's philosophy might have been born of him having been brought up to conduct himself in the Silesian military manner, and drilled in such teachings (he having been an Uhlan cavalry officer before he realised that cavalry charges were not going to be a big feature in WW1) his sense of duty and honour, regardless of where it came from, was undoubtedly an admirable trait on a personal level.

As everyone knows, the victors in a war always get to write the accepted version of events. Because of this, von Richthofen has often conveniently been painted as cruel and heartless, whereas such a simplistic view could not be further from the truth if it tried. Reading between the lines in von Richthofen's autobiography does in fact make him seem rather a likeable man (although clearly a bit of an institutionalised racist where Russians were concerned). Moreover, his diaries confirm that despite actually being very ill after having been wounded in the head when he was brought down for the first time (he was continually plagued with blindingly painful headaches), and having been asked to stop flying, he felt he owed a duty to the ground troops to keep going. You can actually see this change in his outlook take place in photographs of him if you look at them in chronological order. But you'll never read about that side of him in a contemporary British appraisal, that's for sure!

I'm with you on Wagner, great music, but, god almighty, the operas are hard work :rotfl:

:D Chock

[Skybird]

Ah, now I see how you mean it, thanks. There is not much I could argue with.

[AntEater]

Lol, the Nibelungenlied and Aryan Propaganda...
Well, then King Arthur is Empire Propaganda?

Suppose we Germans are simply one of the few nations/cultures in the world you are allowed to hate.
I mean you cannot say anything against muslims, despite the occasional suicide bomber and the fact that parts of the Quran can be "misinterpreted" as a manual to kill pretty much everybody who is not a muslim.
You cannot say anything against blacks (not even call them like that!) because then they will stop gang warfare and accuse you of racism.

Of course you absolutely can't say anything bad about Jews.

Even the Japanese managed to slip under the veil of Xenophobia, despite Nanjing and human experiments and all. Ok, japanese stuff is also quite hip.

So when all is said and done, as an anglo-american there are very few people you can really vent your spleen on and the best of those are the germans.
I mean, the only other really hatable nations are the Chinese and the Russians.
The Chinese simply don't care what you think of them as long as you buy their stuff while the russians are second only to the americans in jingoism and collective chest-beating.
Insult them too much and you find yourself in the center of a hostile corporate takeover, a KGB style assasination plot or simply you have to pay twice as much for your gas.
So that leaves Germany as the most insultable nation on the planet.
We don't mind, really.
And movie villains are mostly cooler than good guys anyway.
:rotfl:

[Takeda Shingen]

For reference, I do not base of the opera by Wagner. I can'T stand Wagner'S operas, they are too long, although I know some pieces of music from them that are of the most beautful music I know of. I base on literature source exclusively.

I'm sorry, but I can't let this slide. Of all the possible critiques of Wagner's work Skybird's biggest complaint is that his works are too lengthy? :p

[Skybird]

For reference, I do not base of the opera by Wagner. I can'T stand Wagner'S operas, they are too long, although I know some pieces of music from them that are of the most beautful music I know of. I base on literature source exclusively.

I'm sorry, but I can't let this slide. Of all the possible critiques of Wagner's work Skybird's biggest complaint is that his works are too lengthy? :p

Well, telling you from first source even the musicians complain that they are too lengthy! :lol: And they have something to do all the time - while the audience can only sit still!

[Onkel Neal]

Lol, the Nibelungenlied and Aryan Propaganda...
Well, then King Arthur is Empire Propaganda?

Suppose we Germans are simply one of the few nations/cultures in the world you are allowed to hate.
I mean you cannot say anything against muslims, despite the occasional suicide bomber and the fact that parts of the Quran can be "misinterpreted" as a manual to kill pretty much everybody who is not a muslim.
You cannot say anything against blacks (not even call them like that!) because then they will stop gang warfare and accuse you of racism.

Of course you absolutely can't say anything bad about Jews.

Even the Japanese managed to slip under the veil of Xenophobia, despite Nanjing and human experiments and all. Ok, japanese stuff is also quite hip.

So when all is said and done, as an anglo-american there are very few people you can really vent your spleen on and the best of those are the germans.
I mean, the only other really hatable nations are the Chinese and the Russians.
The Chinese simply don't care what you think of them as long as you buy their stuff while the russians are second only to the americans in jingoism and collective chest-beating.
Insult them too much and you find yourself in the center of a hostile corporate takeover, a KGB style assasination plot or simply you have to pay twice as much for your gas.
So that leaves Germany as the most insultable nation on the planet.
We don't mind, really.
And movie villains are mostly cooler than good guys anyway.
:rotfl:

I don't have much say about this in the world at large, but bashing Germans here is verboten.

Anyway, don't get too wrapped up in it, I think the world bashes the US more than Germany these days.

[AntEater]

I was writing about the options for british or americans.
Of course self-bashing is always an option. Germans perfected it, even though russian bashing is now a close run second.
Regarding the ROTW (TM), of course the US is the prime target of spleen venting.

[Skybird]

After the cold war, the era of MAB began: mutual assured bashing. Shopping malls perfected it with slogans like "two bashings for the price of one, and one roll over for free if you bash them before tuesday next week". A new caste of warriors emerged as well, the socalled Bashistas, fearful wordslingers who gather in huge parliamentary buildings, typically sitting or standing in round or half-round formations, and try to raise female bashers's attention by ripplefiring words of bashing at the competitors. We have bash-food, typically prepared in microwave ovens, often you feel incredibly bashed after having one of these. People get payed a regular income for signing a contract that allows master-bashers to bash them every day from 08 to 17 hours, and if you haven't gotten enough bashing from either your boss or your babe, you are free to join a hockey club were then you will be smashed, which adds a whole new quality to bashing, and optionally you can also vote for the floor being mopped up with you.

[Chock]

Well, despite being a Brit, I've never been taken in by the simplistic musings that we were 'the good guys' and the 'Germans were all bad'. I mean, how could you really hate a country that had its uniforms made by Hugo Boss? :rotfl:

If you're going to go to war, you might as well do it in style.

:D Chock

[Onkel Neal]

After the cold war, the era of MAB began: mutual assured bashing. Shopping malls perfected it with slogans like "two bashings for the price of one, and one roll over for free if you bash them before tuesday next week". A new caste of warriors emerged as well, the socalled Bashistas, fearful wordslingers who gather in huge parliamentary buildings, typically sitting or standing in round or half-round formations, and try to raise female bashers's attention by ripplefiring words of bashing at the competitors. We have bash-food, typically prepared in microwave ovens, often you feel incredibly bashed after having one of these. People get payed a regular income for signing a contract that allows master-bashers to bash them every day from 08 to 17 hours, and if you haven't gotten enough bashing from either your boss or your babe, you are free to join a hockey club were then you will be smashed, which adds a whole new quality to bashing, and optionally you can also vote for the floor being mopped up with you.

Great comeback, made me smile :smug:

[P_Funk]

Wagner and Hitler, had they actually met, would not have gotten along very well, but I digress.
They say the same thing about Marx and Lenin, or at least something similar. But that is a different conversation.