Movie Grammar in subsims

[TDK1044]

Looking at how sub sims have evolved over the last ten years, while we continue to see improved graphics in these games, and while the superb modders continue to enhance these games in many ways, to me, the Production Grammar of these games also needs to be enhanced.

When playing Silent Hunter 4, I feel that I'm in total control of the sub, but I dont really feel that I'm actually on board the sub as a member of the crew, experiencing the events the way that the crew does. To me, the Captain feels like an invisible crew member who moves freely around the sub unseen and who doesn't really fully experience the events taking place.

I think this is one reason why these games don't appeal much to the largest game buying demographic... the console gamers. Those guys are used to playing as a character who is real and visible to them, and that's not the case here.

Please understand that I'm not trying to undo the game playing reality that has evolved with these games, but I think it would probably increase the sales of these games if the Captain was mapped into the game so that he could be seen as one of the characters in general views of the sub interiors, instead of everything being seen from the Captains point of view.

I think for example that when you initiate 'up periscope', there should be the option of a shot that shows us a general view shot of the periscope rising and the Captain waiting before starting to look through it. It would also be nice to see a general view shot of the Captain and crew when depth charges are going off.

I guess I'm really suggesting that the Devs look at incorporating some level of Movie Grammar into the game like we saw in 'Das Boot', so that the atmosphere is enhanced and not everything is seen from the Captain's POV.

I think that this option would enhance the game play immersion and may attract new blood to subsims.

Just my two cents.

[banjo]

Excellent point and I agree.

[longam]

It would be nice to see crew enter and exit their station or move from one to the other instead of popping up in place. Maybe even have crew members run over and help turn valves off in an emergency or run threw the compartments

I think for example that when you initiate 'up periscope', there should be the option of a shot that shows us a general view shot of the periscope rising and the Captain waiting before starting to look through it. It would also be nice to see a general view shot of the Captain and crew when depth charges are going off.

This sounds like cut scenes and after viewing them 5 or 10 time I wonder they would get old. Hmm, well we watch the periscope go up and down so I guess not.

[tomoose]

TDK1044;
not a bad point. I know some of the posters here have wished for some aspects of the game to be "animated" along the lines you have suggested. For example, when going from the bridge (and I am "standing" next to a 3D character on watch) and then going to an external view, where I was "standing" is now an empty spot as if the character didn't exist at all.
It's similar to the flight sims (i.e. IL-2) whereby external views of a multi-crewed aircraft show EVERY spot with a crewmember but an internal shot shows a ghostly 'empty' aircraft (i.e. no copilot figure beside me when I'm pilot). I've always found that to be a bit of an immersion killer.

(Remember Duke Nukem the FPS, and looking in a mirror in the game and seeing the character staring back at you, LOL. BTW whatever happened to the Duke Nukem franchise??? Sorry that's getting off topic.;) ).

[Steeltrap]

Agree. The danger, of course, is that it diverts resources from getting "the basics" (that are anything but basic, to be fair!) right. No reason that it should, although it would require additional development $$. No doubt it would improve the 'feeling'.

One 'problem' with the current sims (SH3 and 4) is, for me, the fact that you can do everything youself. The biggest problem is the absence of a 'fire control' or 'plotting' team, so crucial in USA subs in particular. Why is this a problem? Well, you'd typically have the skipper making periscope observations ("target: tanker", "bearing: mark!", "range: x thousand", "AoB: 30 deg starboard") and these would be translated to a 'plot' by the team. In essence this allows you to develop 'solutions', or at least a plot, on several ships at once, even though the PK function and TDC can track only one at a time.

If we could do this then it would do a number of things:
- reduce reliance on plotting tools. They don't NEED to be accurate if the sim, representing the plot team, would put targets on the map for you, accurate in terms of the data you've supplied.
- increase the importance of crew development. You need experienced people to plot things and sort out sound contacts etc. This would put a premium on 'training' these crew members, making the roster and GQ functions far more significant.
- allow us, the skippers, to focus on what we 'should' focus on: the tactical situation and accurate, quick periscope observations. Reading O'Kane in Wahoo one thing I found interesting was the exercise he set up to improve his ability to call AoB based on observations (did it in Brisbane, Australia, prior to Wahoo's 3rd patroil, the first with Moreton as skipper).

Being able to twiddle dials etc is all well and good, and probably should be there on one level, but for a sim involving the sense of a crew that is vital to success - a point hammered home in every book I've ever read on WWII subs, irrespective of the natioonality of the sub- they are actually a negative because the crew is, largely, irrelevant.

Interesting ideas. Don't hold your breath for it, however!

[SteamWake]

I think what he is asking for is a bit more color text and atmosphere.

Cant go wrong there. But I do agree that 'cut scenes' would get old very fast.

I distincly remembering when first getting into this series "Now which one of these guys is the Skipper ?" when I realized ... oh yea I'm the skipper.

It would be nice to have this kind of drama and production in this title however look at the product what was 'pushed' to the shelves. It was only after UBI graciously allowing the dev's to produce patches is it actually playable and the modders help to add to it.

Given enough time Im sure developers could include something of this sort but I'm not sure how many more units would be sold because of it.

[TDK1044]

All fair points, Guys. I think this would really need to be thought out, but I think that if you want to attract more people to these games, you have to offer a Gramatical environment that is not purely POV. One suggestion would be to allow the player to move between GV (General View) and POV (point of view) at any time.

[longam]

Anyone Speak Spanish? So good action shots in this video of inside sub.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5o_irIv6eo

[tomoose]

Steeltrap;
excellent points. Imagine the immersion aspect that would be possible if a voice command feature was involved as well. You're at the attack scope, you say "mark" or "bearing" and it is translated to a key stroke and "computed" by your weapons officer etc to set up a firing solution. It would be nice to have in a future subsim I guess. Too late obviously for this one.

Looking forward to the next patch.;)

[Captain Vlad]

Actually, in my opinion, having the captain be an animated part of the boat would detract from the immersion level. I like imagining that I'm seeing the boat from a first person view, and since you can't generally see yourself walking around in front of you like on most RPGs, I think it'd kill the mood a bit.

I DO love when the crewmen turn in the direction of 'me' and say 'Aye, Sir.' On SH III, there was one bridge officer who always gave me the impression that he didn't like me.:D

I'd rather see little signs of your existence than a fully modeled mobile commander...hands on binoculars, crewmembers saying 'hello sir' occasionally or whatever. Also means that you never have to worry about requests for SH IV avatar customization...I hate games where my characters appearance (assuming I'm playing a character I create that is...Lara Croft or Kyle Katarn are okay, I'm just their guiding spirit) is set an unchangeable.

[TDK1044]

It depends how you do it, Vlad. If the player has the ability to go from his own POV to a GV when he wants to, then I think the game would be enhanced. I think that diving and surfacing the boat, getting depth charged, and listening for destroyers trying to ping you would be more interesting if that option was open to you. The key word is 'option'. The player would decide which view to select and when.

As it is now, the more realistically you play this game, the more you are locked into the captains point of view only. If Das Boot had been shot entirely as 'Captains POV', it would have been fascinating for about 30 minutes, and then it would have been a much less dramatic experience for the viewer.

I think that the continued success of these games depends as much on a modified gramatical approach as it does on improving the eye candy.