What is the now general consinsos on SH4?

[Dutch]

After the long wait, and hearing bad things about SH4 what now is the verdict with it. Have mods been implemented in a great way? Is it REALLY worth the money? Has the AI made leaps and bounds? Or is it still broken?

[MONOLITH]

Patches and mods and add-ons.

It's brilliant. Time to catch up with the future. :up:

[Camaero]

Can't go back to SHIII now. It has been turned into one great game.

[Torps]

After the long wait, and hearing bad things about SH4 what now is the verdict with it. Have mods been implemented in a great way? Is it REALLY worth the money? Has the AI made leaps and bounds? Or is it still broken?

Theres been alot of work done to the game,graphics and otherwise, you decide. Here are a few prebeta/post alpha screen shots for ROW, Reflections on Water. Enjoy. (Shrunk to fit)

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/1276/row6em7.jpg

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3397/row5ot5.jpg

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/6127/row3nc0.jpg

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/6003/row2kj8.jpg

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/8821/rowhb6.jpg

[TDK1044]

Patched to 1.3 (with 1.4 imminent) and modded to taste, SH4 is now a very good game and getting better week by week. The expansion pack that's coming at the end of November will only further enhance the game. :D

[Rockin Robbins]

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines16.jpg
Consinsos be damned! I'm having too good a time for that.:arrgh!: ROW camera is incredible! Hunting with cuties is poker on steroids! Merchies zig and zag like they've been bar hopping all night, no more lazy setups. Ships don't go down in 30 seconds but there's pyrotechnics enough. Just plugged a subchaser from 3,700 yards with a single shot and it flew a hundred feet in the air, split in two and the two halves sank individually! Missed the screenshot too because I was so surprised. :eek:

But amidst all the death and destruction there is beauty.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/Carolines18.jpg
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines18.jpg
Ain't she beautiful with the sun glistening off her copper colored hull, the rudder askew, the water boiling in anticipation of the sea's latest meal. Arrrrrr. Bein' a sub captain is sublime with Silent Hunter 4!:()1:

[kriller2]

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines16.jpg
Consinsos be damned! I'm having too good a time for that.:arrgh!: ROW camera is incredible! Hunting with cuties is poker on steroids! Merchies zig and zag like they've been bar hopping all night, no more lazy setups. Ships don't go down in 30 seconds but there's pyrotechnics enough. Just plugged a subchaser from 3,700 yards with a single shot and it flew a hundred feet in the air, split in two and the two halves sank individually! Missed the screenshot too because I was so surprised. :eek:

But amidst all the death and destruction there is beauty.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines18.jpg
Ain't she beautiful with the sun glistening off her copper colored hull, the rudder askew, the water boiling in anticipation of the sea's latest meal. Arrrrrr. Bein' a sub
captain is sublime with Silent Hunter 4!:()1:

Nice picture Rockin Robbins!
Is that a stock SH4 ship on the picture or are you running a mod? - I meet the same merchant ships again and again... :roll:

[kiwi_2005]

After the long wait, and hearing bad things about SH4 what now is the verdict with it. Have mods been implemented in a great way? Is it REALLY worth the money? Has the AI made leaps and bounds? Or is it still broken?

SH4 rocks. Its worth every pennie. :yep:

[Rockin Robbins]

Nice picture Rockin Robbins!
Is that a stock SH4 ship on the picture or are you running a mod? - I meet the same merchant ships again and again... :roll:
TM 1.64, ROW latest and NSM 3.3, thank you very much. Is your visual upgrade part of ROW or can it be stacked on top?
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/Carolines16.jpg
I reorganized my pics and forgot it broke the links. So how about a bonus pic to try to make up for it? Your bridge cam rocks!

[kriller2]

It's part a part of ROW so no need to download it, it's a old mod which I forgot to remove from the signature-tag.

[Cooter1966]

Can't see Robins pictures, all I see is a white rectangle with red "x" in it. I've seen those before, but what does it mean? BTW Dutch, the game is worth the money, no doubt.:rock: :ping:

[Monica Lewinsky]

Love it with current patch and looking for the 1.4 patch any day soon. Looks like it could use a spell checker for topics though. :D

[Rockin Robbins]

Love it with current patch and looking for the 1.4 patch any day soon. Looks like it could use a spell checker for topics though. :D That's called character in these parts!

Fixed my broken link and entered a bonus pic in my previous posts.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/CarolinesKuma3-1.jpg
Here's a Kuma CL lighting me up when I got careless. Look at those colors. Wow! He seems to have a fire going on inside that torpedo hole too! I submerged before he tagged me.

[SteamWake]

What is a Consinsos ?

[Rockin Robbins]

What is a Consinsos ?

I have one of those set up in my forward torpedo room. Craps, poker, roulette. We only bet stateside dollars so if we don't make it back alive we don't owe anything.:arrgh!:

[MONOLITH]

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[FooFighters]

http://www.oldsmobile1958.com/extra/AK1.jpg

http://www.oldsmobile1958.com/extra/AK7.jpg

http://www.oldsmobile1958.com/extra/mis29.jpg

http://www.oldsmobile1958.com/extra/mis42.jpg

Looks pretty convinsing to me
:arrgh!:

Buy the game, you'll love it..
(SH4 + patch 1.3 + TM + ROW)

[MONOLITH]

Absolutely beautiful shots Foo. Some new desktops for me. :up:


PS: I never saw that many lifeboats at once before. :o

[Keelbuster]

I haven't been keeping up to date on SH4, but in truth - have the TDC (i.e. complete manual targeting system) and damage control been fixed up to the point where i can play it like SH3? If so, I might give SH4 another go. I don't really care about graphics. SH3's were (are) just fine for me.

[SteamWake]

I haven't been keeping up to date on SH4, but in truth - have the TDC (i.e. complete manual targeting system) and damage control been fixed up to the point where i can play it like SH3? If so, I might give SH4 another go. I don't really care about graphics. SH3's were (are) just fine for me.

In that case I recommend you stay with SH3's micro management style of babby sitting the crew. You will not see that in SH4.... ever.

I cant speak on the issue of fully manual TDC. I have used it successfully, if its broken somehow Im not aware of it. Yes there are issues about the units of measurement but this is slated to be improved with the comming patch.

Damage control works fine, the issue is that it can be hard to determine wether or not all damage is repaired or if there are structural problems beyond repair. Again from what I understand this will be addressed in the comming patch.

[Keelbuster]

I haven't been keeping up to date on SH4, but in truth - have the TDC (i.e. complete manual targeting system) and damage control been fixed up to the point where i can play it like SH3? If so, I might give SH4 another go. I don't really care about graphics. SH3's were (are) just fine for me.
In that case I recommend you stay with SH3's micro management style of babby sitting the crew. You will not see that in SH4.... ever.

I cant speak on the issue of fully manual TDC. I have used it successfully, if its broken somehow Im not aware of it. Yes there are issues about the units of measurement but this is slated to be improved with the comming patch.

Damage control works fine, the issue is that it can be hard to determine wether or not all damage is repaired or if there are structural problems beyond repair. Again from what I understand this will be addressed in the comming patch.

Ok...I can live with most of that - i don't mind some uncertainty in structural damage.

How do you make your range estimates? Is it primarily the stad?
Can the watch officer estimate a range?
Do watchmen call out the bearing of contacts?
Can you turn radar off?
Can radar give you a range?

Sorry to hammer the questions out but these are things that hung me the last time i played it - i'm sure i could dig up the state of these features through the forum, but i know there's a brain nearby with everything in it, all nicely organized. Thanks for the patience boys.

[Rockin Robbins]

How do you make your range estimates? Is it primarily the stad?
Can the watch officer estimate a range?
Do watchmen call out the bearing of contacts?
Can you turn radar off?
Can radar give you a range?
Range estimates can come from sonar (direct input to TDC), stadimeter (direct TDC input) or radar (no TDC input there).

Watch officers cannot estimate range.

Watchmen call out the bearing of contacts.

Radar can be turned off but I still get interrupted TC during approach to Pearl.

Radar can give you a range but does not input to TDC. This is historical, however manual TDC input should be possible. It is up to about 1500 yards. That is an undocumented procedure but isn't difficult.

[Keelbuster]

How do you make your range estimates? Is it primarily the stad?
Can the watch officer estimate a range?
Do watchmen call out the bearing of contacts?
Can you turn radar off?
Can radar give you a range?
Range estimates can come from sonar (direct input to TDC), stadimeter (direct TDC input) or radar (no TDC input there).

Watch officers cannot estimate range.

Watchmen call out the bearing of contacts.

Radar can be turned off but I still get interrupted TC during approach to Pearl.

Radar can give you a range but does not input to TDC. This is historical, however manual TDC input should be possible. It is up to about 1500 yards. That is an undocumented procedure but isn't difficult.

Nice - thx. Does anyone still use the 3.15 second rule to estimate speed?

Now this is petty but - previously i had a situation where the watchmen would call out a contact bearing, and i'd lose it in the message log - like it would be replaced by new ones. After that I couldn't find a way to ask him again - like where is the bloody thing? How would you achieve that?

[FooFighters]

Absolutely beautiful shots Foo. Some new desktops for me. :up:


PS: I never saw that many lifeboats at once before. :o

Thanks skipper..

There were even more lifeboats present then on the shot.
Lots of survivers on this carrier..

:arrgh!:

[Rockin Robbins]

Nice - thx. Does anyone still use the 3.15 second rule to estimate speed?

Now this is petty but - previously i had a situation where the watchmen would call out a contact bearing, and i'd lose it in the message log - like it would be replaced by new ones. After that I couldn't find a way to ask him again - like where is the bloody thing? How would you achieve that?
I HATE it when I'm busy and miss the call. Trigger Maru has a keyboard command to get the watchman to repeat the call. Is it ctrl-G?

Now with Imperial measurements you don't use the 3.15 second rule, because we're not mixing units between metric and knots, which are imperial. (even the Europeans admit that imperial measurements are superior! hehehe). With unmixed imperial measurements, you time for 3 or 6 minutes. If you use 3, you take the number of nautical miles traveled, multiply by 2, then by 10 to get knots (nautical miles per hour). Why does this work? Well knots being what it is, if you timed for 60 minutes you would directly measure nautical miles per hour, right? 1/10 of 60 minutes is 6 minutes. Half of that is exactly 3. Simple, eh? Imperial measurements rule!!!!!

Same thing with yards and nautical miles. Take the measurement in nm, multiply by two and slide the decimal three places to the right. 1.7 nm is 3400 yards. You can't push buttons on a calculator before you know the answer without it.

Yes, you've been taught all your life how superior the metric system is and how backwards us users of the antique measurements are. Welcome to the sea, where imperial measurements, because of their relationship to things we care about, rather than arcane (and wrongly measured anyway!) irrelevencies, rule! If we were using celestial navigation you would learn the nautical mile's relationship to degrees in longitude, which is yet another aspect of imperial measurements' superiority!

[mrbeast]

Nice - thx. Does anyone still use the 3.15 second rule to estimate speed?

Now this is petty but - previously i had a situation where the watchmen would call out a contact bearing, and i'd lose it in the message log - like it would be replaced by new ones. After that I couldn't find a way to ask him again - like where is the bloody thing? How would you achieve that?
I HATE it when I'm busy and miss the call. Trigger Maru has a keyboard command to get the watchman to repeat the call. Is it ctrl-G?

Now with Imperial measurements you don't use the 3.15 second rule, because we're not mixing units between metric and knots, which are imperial. (even the Europeans admit that imperial measurements are superior! hehehe). With unmixed imperial measurements, you time for 3 or 6 minutes. If you use 3, you take the number of nautical miles traveled, multiply by 2, then by 10 to get knots (nautical miles per hour). Why does this work? Well knots being what it is, if you timed for 60 minutes you would directly measure nautical miles per hour, right? 1/10 of 60 minutes is 6 minutes. Half of that is exactly 3. Simple, eh? Imperial measurements rule!!!!!

Same thing with yards and nautical miles. Take the measurement in nm, multiply by two and slide the decimal three places to the right. 1.7 nm is 3400 yards. You can't push buttons on a calculator before you know the answer without it.

Yes, you've been taught all your life how superior the metric system is and how backwards us users of the antique measurements are. Welcome to the sea, where imperial measurements, because of their relationship to things we care about, rather than arcane (and wrongly measured anyway!) irrelevencies, rule! If we were using celestial navigation you would learn the nautical mile's relationship to degrees in longitude, which is yet another aspect of imperial measurements' superiority!

"Metrication is the work of the Devil"

Grandpa Simpson.

:rotfl:

[Rockin Robbins]

"Metrication is the work of the Devil"

Grandpa Simpson.

:rotfl:

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :arrgh!:

[Keelbuster]

Nice - thx. Does anyone still use the 3.15 second rule to estimate speed?

Now this is petty but - previously i had a situation where the watchmen would call out a contact bearing, and i'd lose it in the message log - like it would be replaced by new ones. After that I couldn't find a way to ask him again - like where is the bloody thing? How would you achieve that?
I HATE it when I'm busy and miss the call. Trigger Maru has a keyboard command to get the watchman to repeat the call. Is it ctrl-G?

Now with Imperial measurements you don't use the 3.15 second rule, because we're not mixing units between metric and knots, which are imperial. (even the Europeans admit that imperial measurements are superior! hehehe). With unmixed imperial measurements, you time for 3 or 6 minutes. If you use 3, you take the number of nautical miles traveled, multiply by 2, then by 10 to get knots (nautical miles per hour). Why does this work? Well knots being what it is, if you timed for 60 minutes you would directly measure nautical miles per hour, right? 1/10 of 60 minutes is 6 minutes. Half of that is exactly 3. Simple, eh? Imperial measurements rule!!!!!

Same thing with yards and nautical miles. Take the measurement in nm, multiply by two and slide the decimal three places to the right. 1.7 nm is 3400 yards. You can't push buttons on a calculator before you know the answer without it.

Yes, you've been taught all your life how superior the metric system is and how backwards us users of the antique measurements are. Welcome to the sea, where imperial measurements, because of their relationship to things we care about, rather than arcane (and wrongly measured anyway!) irrelevencies, rule! If we were using celestial navigation you would learn the nautical mile's relationship to degrees in longitude, which is yet another aspect of imperial measurements' superiority!

Damn. And I thought the british ways were backwards (i.e., adherence to having two faucets in the bathroom (hot and cold) rather than a mixer). Not in things naval I guess. Ok...some i'm getting enthused here. I gather: if you time for 3 minutes, multiply the distance by 20 to get knots. If you time for 6 minutes, multiply it by 10. A nautical mile is 2000 yards. If you use the stad, I guess it gives you back yards. Ok. So roughly speaking - for prosecuting a ship-spotted!, you roughly estimate the target's course by eyeball - approach, then dive, get closer, start taking stad readings with the 3 or 6 minutes rule, compute speed, get about 90 degrees AoB, then Los!?

Thanks for the reply!

[Ducimus]

Its just the 3 min rule, instead of the 3:15 minute rule. Theres a few different ways to go about it.


As an aside Anyone starting Sh4, and used to sh3, may find Tmaru helpful in the transition. I used a Sh3 keyboard layout, primarly because after a few years of using that layout, changing to a new one was like pulling teeth. Most (or all) of the information gathering functionalty is renabled.

[Rockin Robbins]

Its just the 3 min rule, instead of the 3:15 minute rule. Theres a few different ways to go about it.


As an aside Anyone starting Sh4, and used to sh3, may find Tmaru helpful in the transition. I used a Sh3 keyboard layout, primarly because after a few years of using that layout, changing to a new one was like pulling teeth. Most (or all) of the information gathering functionalty is renabled.

Why SH4 did not set up a keyboard command to go to the attack map is beyond me. When you need that map you need it NOW, not after changing toolbars, identifying the right button, moving your hand to the mouse and clicking. F6 is so much better! Also Ducimus activated the CE Identify Target function and made a button for it. It is quite easy to make your own keyboard shortcut for that. I use shift-i. There's all kinds of treasure hidden in TM's command structure.

[Ducimus]

>>There's all kinds of treasure hidden in TM's command structure.

Part of the credit goes to CCIP. I used his mod as a base, and built up on it from there. I kept the F1 help information up to date, so if theres any wonder about what does, what, F1 is there.

[Iron Budokan]

It's come a long way, but still needs work. Eventually, modders will trick this out into one sweet ride, given time. And they've come a long way so far.

I can wait; I'm in no hurry.

[maerean_m]

Why SH4 did not set up a keyboard command to go to the attack map is beyond me. I talked to Dan about this and the answer was "can't change it because it would be different from the manual and help (and changing in english requires retranslation in all 10 languages) and is too complicated" (read bureaucratic).

If you want a specific key, i can tell you what to modify and where.

[Rockin Robbins]

Why SH4 did not set up a keyboard command to go to the attack map is beyond me. I talked to Dan about this and the answer was "can't change it because it would be different from the manual and help (and changing in english requires retranslation in all 10 languages) and is too complicated" (read bureaucratic).

If you want a specific key, i can tell you what to modify and where.
No, they're absolutely correct. That is what modders are for. No keyboard layout is going to be good for everybody. It makes sense for the "dive" key to be "d" in english, but what if you speak Icelandic? You made a customizable keyboard scheme with text-based configuration files. The only thing you could have done differently would be to include a utility to set your own layout. But we're back to what modders are for, aren't we?:up:

[Wilcke]

I love my SH4! Between the devs continued support and the modders great contributions this is a must have for a sub simmer that enjoys the PTO.

Enjoying the warm night and the moon rising. (sorry this ones a bit dark)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e294/tascaso/SH4Img8-10-2007_07.jpg

Another beautiful sunrise prior to submerging for the daylight patrol.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e294/tascaso/SH4Img18-10-2007_11.jpg

Wilcke

[JSF]

I find it very enjoyable.....I just wish I new how to get the mods loaded.....

[Reaves]

SH4 is a great game.

But i'm biased because my first subsim was Silent Service 2 (pacific fleet boats) plus everytime I play I get to see my country on the map.

Trust me, Brits and Yanks get to play their countries in heaps of war games, it's not often I get to fight in my own backyard. :yep:

[Angus89]

I was once like you lemme see if this makes sense. download Jsgme unzip and run once. then download desired mods to desktop. unzip mod to program files/ubisoft/sh4/mods. Now run jsgme, select mods u want to use and your good to go. pretty easy once you get it the first time round.

[JSF]

I was once like you lemme see if this makes sense. download Jsgme unzip and run once. then download desired mods to desktop. unzip mod to program files/ubisoft/sh4/mods. Now run jsgme, select mods u want to use and your good to go. pretty easy once you get it the first time round.

Sounds good....many thanks!

[ReallyDedPoet]

I was once like you lemme see if this makes sense. download Jsgme unzip and run once. then download desired mods to desktop. unzip mod to program files/ubisoft/sh4/mods. Now run jsgme, select mods u want to use and your good to go. pretty easy once you get it the first time round.
Sounds good....many thanks!

Check the link under my sig. for a nice Illustrated Guide.


RDP

[TDK1044]

I think the general consensus regarding Silent Hunter 4 is that it was released as an unfinished game, but it has since been heavily patched and modded, and with the new 'Add On' and more significant mods to come, including the ability to construct a full Atlantic U Boat campaign, by the summer of 2008 it will be the best sub sim of all time. :D

[hyperion2206]

I think the general consensus regarding Silent Hunter 4 is that it was released as an unfinished game, but it has since been heavily patched and modded, and with the new 'Add On' and more significant mods to come, including the ability to construct a full Atlantic U Boat campaign, by the summer of 2008 it will be the best sub sim of all time. :D

Is that just your wishful thinking or do you know stuff that you will share with us as soon as you're allowed to?:lol:

[TDK1044]

If you look at the info that Ubisoft has released regarding the Add On, it's clear to me that the Devs are giving the modders everything they need to create Silent Hunter 3 within Silent Hunter 4. All of the necessary elements are there.

[ReallyDedPoet]

If you look at the info that Ubisoft has released regarding the Add On, it's clear to me that the Devs are giving the modders everything they need to create Silent Hunter 3 within Silent Hunter 4. All of the necessary elements are there.

Many are already there in SH4 now, ports, etc in the Atlantic. I agree here, it will be a great sim going forward with both theatres combined.


RDP

[hyperion2206]

If you look at the info that Ubisoft has released regarding the Add On, it's clear to me that the Devs are giving the modders everything they need to create Silent Hunter 3 within Silent Hunter 4. All of the necessary elements are there.
I guess I misinterpreted your previous post, I thought by "more significant mods to come" you meant more UBI Add-ons.:oops:
But now that I know what you meant I can heartily agree with you.:D

[SteamWake]

If you look at the info that Ubisoft has released regarding the Add On, it's clear to me that the Devs are giving the modders everything they need to create Silent Hunter 3 within Silent Hunter 4. All of the necessary elements are there.
I guess I misinterpreted your previous post, I thought by "more significant mods to come" you meant more UBI Add-ons.:oops:
But now that I know what you meant I can heartily agree with you.:D

Oh rest assured, once the modders get ahold of the latest 'patch' and perhaps even the add on we will see even more wonderous things.

[Rockin Robbins]

If you look at the info that Ubisoft has released regarding the Add On, it's clear to me that the Devs are giving the modders everything they need to create Silent Hunter 3 within Silent Hunter 4. All of the necessary elements are there.
I guess I misinterpreted your previous post, I thought by "more significant mods to come" you meant more UBI Add-ons.:oops:
But now that I know what you meant I can heartily agree with you.:D
Oh rest assured, once the modders get ahold of the latest 'patch' and perhaps even the add on we will see even more wonderous things. (insert Twilight Zone Music here) And so, two widely divergent threads are sown neatly up into identical packages by two different individuals who have had no direct contact or discussion. Unbelievable? No. Just another tale from the Twilight Zone.

Fasten your seatbelts, gents. It's gonna be a tiny bit bumpy. Hit those booster rockets!:up:
To the future... and beyond!

[JSF]

I was once like you lemme see if this makes sense. download Jsgme unzip and run once. then download desired mods to desktop. unzip mod to program files/ubisoft/sh4/mods. Now run jsgme, select mods u want to use and your good to go. pretty easy once you get it the first time round.
Sounds good....many thanks!

Check the link under my sig. for a nice Illustrated Guide.


RDP

I really appreciate the additional assistance. I followed your instructions and everything looked as if it were going as planned. The installer mod went well. But just maybe I over did it to some extent. I loaded a series of mods and tried to install them all at the same time...and the game froze during initial start up. I guess each mod should be loaded individually FYI...I performed a fresh install of the game and patched it to 1.3 after a defrag before attempting any mods.

[Wilko]

What would impress me is a British Sub campaign :yep:

[hyperion2206]

If you look at the info that Ubisoft has released regarding the Add On, it's clear to me that the Devs are giving the modders everything they need to create Silent Hunter 3 within Silent Hunter 4. All of the necessary elements are there.
I guess I misinterpreted your previous post, I thought by "more significant mods to come" you meant more UBI Add-ons.:oops:
But now that I know what you meant I can heartily agree with you.:D
Oh rest assured, once the modders get ahold of the latest 'patch' and perhaps even the add on we will see even more wonderous things. (insert Twilight Zone Music here) And so, two widely divergent threads are sown neatly up into identical packages by two different individuals who have had no direct contact or discussion. Unbelievable? No. Just another tale from the Twilight Zone.

Fasten your seatbelts, gents. It's gonna be a tiny bit bumpy. Hit those booster rockets!:up:
To the future... and beyond!

You really like the Twilight Zone, don't you?:p:lol:

[Rockin Robbins]

You really like the Twilight Zone, don't you?:p:lol:
To Serve Man
:up::rock::p:doh::up::yep::p:arrgh!:

[SteamWake]

You really like the Twilight Zone, don't you?:p:lol:

Toy story I belive...

[Rockin Robbins]

You know, this thread wouldn't have been half as much fun if Dutch had not had the good fortune to say "consinsos." Thank you Dutch for a thread with legs. It's better to be lucky than good. Nobody could have pulled that off on purpose!:up: Gets my vote for the second most fun thread of the last 30 days just behind "Save the Yamato."