Aircraft Attacks on Patrols are unreal

[Mocdra]

In the Area araound Japan, and i mean araound the Wide Area around Japan..
Surface Moving with a Sub at Day without Aircraft Attacks all 10 to 30 Minutes is not possible. Whein i surfaced.. On Arcraft Attack after another one, like on a Chain without any Break. Has the Enemy to many Planees or is my Sub a so important Target, or is nothing others to do as ruin the Days of many Sub Skippers?.
So i am damned to wait at periscope Depth to the Night for surface an continuing cruising, then where Aircraft not on Patrol.:damn:
I have only the Night for Moving on the Surface !! that is not real
It is like what the German Subs in the Late 43 and 44 encountered with the alliied Air superiority, where numerous allied Planes hunt every german Sub at Day.

In the War the Japan Aircraft Patrol Net was`nt so intensive and tight !.:down:

Greetings

Moc

[Torplexed]

Yikes! Air in this game sounds more like the Bay of Biscay 1943. :huh:

[Ducimus]

It's been fixed, adjusted, modded, whatever you want to call it. I hardly see planes anymore, i think i overdid it. Part of the problem was a funky bug found by tater. Again, workaround was made.

[Rockin Robbins]

Has anyone actually done a study of subcaptains who liked to patrol on the surface (count me in as part of that group) and determined what plane frequency actually was near Japan?

[ironkross]

It's been fixed, adjusted, modded, whatever you want to call it. I hardly see planes anymore, i think i overdid it. Part of the problem was a funky bug found by tater. Again, workaround was made.
I've been using TM and got attacked about 2 times a day patroling the E China sea on my last patrol. Recieved a message of new Japanese airfield on Luzon and sure enough got spotted on the surface and attacked when I got closer. Overall I thought it realistically recreated the number of patrol aircraft and attacks.

[SteamWake]

Yes in vanilla SH4 the air patrols are relentless but are easly modded.

At least they got the radar fixed so you get some advance notice now you should have tried prior to 1.3 :p

By the way it was standard operating procedure to run submerged by day if for on other reason but to avoid detection.

[Mocdra]

By the way it was standard operating procedure to run submerged by day if for on other reason but to avoid detection.

Thats not true...
Us Boats operates Surfaced on Patrol. Only near Harbors or Airfields etc, along enemy coasts is submerged Moving at Day standard Operation Mode, even to avoid detection from the enemy.
Only on the Surface is the Crew Able to detect other Ships with the Bridge Lookouts ( Smokestacks , antennas etc). In the first War years the Standard Detection procedure.
Submerged the Crew have only the Hydrophones ( with a shorter range as normal visual sight in the WWII) and the Periscope( shorter visual range due the lower Point of view).
Then again... Why now should operate a WWII Boat suberged at Day.
Modern Nuclear Boats better detecting ships an others by operating nearly permanentely submerged and detects it with Sonar; The Range is over the half whole Ocean.
Visual Sight is here very secondary


Submerging on normal open Water Patrol is ordered at the detectet EXISTENCE of Air and Sea Threats or an attack from them. Then the submerged Day Convoy Attack etc.

Then the Japanese did`nt had these Number of Aircraft to cover the whole Ocean several hundres Miles in Radius AROUND the Japanese Islands and Bases to trigger such Attack frequencies an strongness..
Example: Attacks from Flying Boats comes with 2 or 3 Aircraft at once all 10-30 mins... !!
Who **** these Planes into the Sky ?! or have anyone open a Bag with these ??

First Cold War Diesel Electric Subs was fully submerged over the Day !.
Only Nuclear Subs are most submerged and surfacing rare times.
Modern Subs are real Underwater Ships. WWII Boats was`nt !.

I´ve readed some Books about Subs in WWII !. Thats the Source.

Greetings

Moc

[mrbeast]

By the way it was standard operating procedure to run submerged by day if for on other reason but to avoid detection.

Thats not true...
Us Boats operates Surfaced on Patrol. Only near Harbors or Airfields etc, along enemy coasts is submerged Moving at Day standard Operation Mode, even to avoid detection from the enemy.
Only on the Surface is the Crew Able to detect other Ships with the Bridge Lookouts ( Smokestacks , antennas etc). In the first War years the Standard Detection procedure.
Submerged the Crew have only the Hydrophones ( with a shorter range as normal visual sight in the WWII) and the Periscope( shorter visual range due the lower Point of view).
Then again... Why now should operate a WWII Boat suberged at Day.
Modern Nuclear Boats better detecting ships an others by operating nearly permanentely submerged and detects it with Sonar; The Range is over the half whole Ocean.
Visual Sight is here very secondary


Submerging on normal open Water Patrol is ordered at the detectet EXISTENCE of Air and Sea Threats or an attack from them. Then the submerged Day Convoy Attack etc.

Then the Japanese did`nt had these Number of Aircraft to cover the whole Ocean several hundres Miles in Radius AROUND the Japanese Islands and Bases to trigger such Attack frequencies an strongness..
Example: Attacks from Flying Boats comes with 2 or 3 Aircraft at once all 10-30 mins... !!
Who **** these Planes into the Sky ?! or have anyone open a Bag with these ??

First Cold War Diesel Electric Subs was fully submerged over the Day !.
Only Nuclear Subs are most submerged and surfacing rare times.
Modern Subs are real Underwater Ships. WWII Boats was`nt !.

I´ve readed some Books about Subs in WWII !. Thats the Source.

Greetings

Moc

I'm afraid it is true. Standing orders to USN sub captains stated that during daylight hours and when operating within 500miles of suspected or known enemy airbases they should conduct operations while submerged. Later some bolder captains operated on the surface during the day to gain tactical advantage and captains were soimetime criticised for excessive periods under water. But again the majority of operations during day light hours were conducted while submerged. They would usually have to operate at about 150ft, as in good conditions a sub at scope depth could be seen quite clearly from the air.

As the Pacific was peppered with Japanese airbases the risk of detection by IJN/IJA aircraft was quite high. Some of the flying boats (Mavis' or Emilys) were even equipped with radar sets later on.

U boats operated on the surface but that was because the risk of air detection was quite low early in the war and KM 'Wolf Pack' tactics could not be carried out while spending long periods submerged. Plus U boats were required to remain in radio contact so they could be directed to convoys etc. The USN usually only transmitted radio messages at night at a regular time to allow subs to recieve while hidden by darkness.

Modern SSN/SSBNs never surface while on patrol they have no need to and the risk of being spotted by spy satellite keeps them deep at nearly all times. They would only consider surfacing in an emergancy or if a particulal op called for it.

Also its not true that WWII hydrophones could only detect at short ranges. They could detect ships well outside visual range.

[Rockin Robbins]

The most sucessful captains operated surfaced at all times unless actively avoiding a perceived enemy detection. This assumes using radar, of course. The unsuccessful ones remained submerged during the day when they could find targets and surfaced at night when targets could not be seen. They then returned to port with 24 torpedoes reporting there were no targets available. At the same time Barb and other more daring boats were having a field day.

[Munchausen]

Example: Attacks from Flying Boats comes with 2 or 3 Aircraft at once all 10-30 mins... !!

I'd say that would be excessive ... unless your sub is either near an escorted convoy or near a Japanese air base. At least one WWII author tells of being forced to go deep, while attempting to get into position on a medium-sized convoy, by more than one airplane. And it's been postulated that Mush Morton's Wahoo was sunk by the combination of DDs and aircraft while trying to exit the Sea of Japan.

Operating near Japan, subs were often forced to remain submerged most of the day. As the war progressed and the Japanese offensive subsided, more planes were made available to patrol the coastline and escort ships carrying badly needed cargo.

If you've been spotted, it's likely the same aircraft will hunt for you, loitering ... making it seem there's more than one plane in the area. It will happen more often the closer you are to land ... but it can also happen if, unknown to you, you're near a Japanese convoy. (In the latter situation, though, it's reasonable to assume the air coverage would move with the convoy ... and not hang around all day. Ergo, if you're mid-ocean and are plagued by enemy aircraft from sunrise to sunset ... well, I'd call that excessive.)

[rrmelend]

The most sucessful captains operated surfaced at all times unless actively avoiding a perceived enemy detection. This assumes using radar, of course. The unsuccessful ones remained submerged during the day when they could find targets and surfaced at night when targets could not be seen. They then returned to port with 24 torpedoes reporting there were no targets available. At the same time Barb and other more daring boats were having a field day.

I'd like to see your sources for this info. You are right abou the Barb but most of the skippers running on the top for extended periods of daylight hours came during the last year of the war when radar had advanced enough and the threat of detection was less than before.

[leovampire]

If you go for a 24 hour period of time without being spoted or attacking anything there are less plane's sent out.

If you go 48 hours without attacking or being spoted it takes even longer periods of time before you get an air contact.

I have a large number of plane's in my own game set up 2 Zero's for every bomber on an airbase so if I have 8 bombers there are 16 Zero's.

But inbetween my attacks on ship's I can still go as long as 2 to 3 days without seeing a plane or picking one up on Radar. You just need to adjust the distance plane's can travel and the AirStrike file properly.

But if you are spoted or make an attack of course Airbases and AirCraft carriers in the area are going to patrol a lot it would be Stupid if they didn't.

The point of a Submarine game is stealth so if you allow yourself to be seen or picked up by a DD you can expect Air suport in that area and on your projected path for a while.

After being spoted change your course during the night to start the reduction of Air patrols and when you pick one up on radar dive and hide until after they make the return flight back to home base then you can surface again.

Just remember the game revolves around you and your sub in a lot of way's. So everything you do or do not do make's a difference on how other thing's in the game react over time.

This is what I have for an Airstrike set up:

Maximum Aircraft Range=1500 Only late war Bombers can go this far in my game set up.

Poor Airbase Modifier=0.5 the larger the number means the more accurate search the plane does inbetween detection times for the airbase modifiers. Each time a plane is sent out they get more accurate in the search so if you start out with a really low number it takes longer before the plane's actualy do a search that come's right at you.
Novice Airbase Modifier=0.7
Competent Airbase Modifier=0.8
Veteran Airbase Modifier=0.9
Elite Airbase Modifier=0.1

Night Modifier=0.2 With a number this low no night time Air patrols unless a plane is radar equiped this effect's AIR AI VISUAL.

Default Air Strike Probability=10

Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Radio Messages Sent=50 every time you make a radio message the logic steps of this changes and takes time to go back to normal.

Friendly Air Strike Probability Increase on Contact Report Sent=90 It has to be day time and near a friendly air base or carrier's and you have to send a contact report or a friendly ship must see the enemy ship's.

Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Player Detection=70 every time you are detected this increases in logic steps and takes time to go back to normal again and both ship and plane detection counts here.

Atenuation Factor=15
Logic Steps Between Air Sessions=20 this is a ballance number between how bad it gets in Airstriks appon detection and how long it takes for it to go back to normal.
So it is hard to get a good and happy ballance with changing this.

So the point is every time you are or are not detected changes the logic steps in how soon or how long it takes for a plane to be launched and how many are launched to go looking around. Plane's do not look around the ground area's only the ocean matters to them because the game revolves around you.

So if you have a 1500 knm maxium radius for a plane the primary search is on water and they will head in a general direction of the players sub.

I draw, using the compus, 2 circle's one for the bombers max range and one for the Zero's so I know the danger point's.

So one circle is set at 1500 nm range and my zero's can not go past 600 nm so I make another circle for them at that range.

Go into the CFG file for each plane and set them to a range you can deal with or ask the modder's how they have the plane's set up for distance in thier mod so you can make a circle from the airbases.

[-Pv-]

My experience in an unmodded game is similar to leovampire (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=231361).

I know from history and contact reports on the map where "hot" areas are. I expect air patrols to increase in those areas and they do. As a result, I change my tactics in those areas to be more stealthy. I do not spend all my time submerged or surfaced, but adjust frequently based on my proximity to enemy concentrations and aircraft sightings. If I do get sighted and attacked, I fully ecpect the attacks to increase and they do. Otherwise, an occasional spotting avoided makes the encounters few and far between. Obviously there are areas like E china Sea and S Japan where the air patrols are very intense for good reason.

I have also found enemy air easy to avoid without submerging. In 8 out of 10 aircraft detections where the planes come near, they pass by without attacking me. When I detect aircraft, I have already decided if I want my sub to be sighted or not. If Not, I will plot their closest point of travel to judge if I'll be seen. If I think I'll be seen, I'll dive to 100ft. If I think not, I'll stay on the suface and activate my best AA gunner in case I'm wrong. High speed and hard turns at the last moment gives my gunner the advantage. I rarely get hit, but I don't like the loss of stealth and increased air patrols that result from duck shooting season. I like to save my AA ammo for those rescue missions where I have limited time to pick up the bouncing buddies and can't let AC chase me down, or I have damage and must crawl to port on the surface.

By turning the sub to minimum profile at closest point and lowering the sub to deck awash I can stay on the surface and they'll pass by most of the time. If there is fog, they are very unlikely to spot me unless very close. I don't let that happen.
-Pv-

[Munchausen]

I'd like to see your sources for this info. You are right abou the Barb but most of the skippers running on the top for extended periods of daylight hours came during the last year of the war when radar had advanced enough and the threat of detection was less than before.

Many (mostly older) skippers ran submerged so as to comply with the Navy's policy for daylight operations ... but there were other skippers (mostly younger) who ran submerged only out of necessity. For the latter, you can read from any one (or more) of the following autobiographical accounts:

Wahoo, R. H. O'Kane
Clear the Bridge, R. H. O'Kane
Take Her Deep!, I. Galantin
Batfish, H. Lowder
Submarine Diary, Mendenhall

And from the one book I still haven't returned to the library I quote:

"Silent Running" by James F. Calvert

pp. 114-115

About a week later, the SD earned its salt. It was a heavily overcast day with many low-lying clouds. We were passing Marcus island, a known base for Japanese patrol planes. We had an SD contact at four miles and did not wait to try to see him. As we passed about sixty feet, WHAM!

The SD had seen something, all right, and the patrol plane must have seen us diving. We leveled off at 150 feet.

WHAM!...WHAM! Two more bombs, much closer.

"Let's hope that three is all he carries," said Dykers, who by now had come to the conning tower. Apparently it was, for we heard no more. About a half hour later, we surfaced.

... All that day, February 5, we were plagued with aircraft from Marcus obviously looking for the submarine that had been bombed. They combed the area pretty thoroughly. We had to dive four times. Each time the airplane was detected by the SD.

pp. 131-132

We set our course for the Mindoro Strait to pass from the South China Sea into the Sulu Sea.

... There were lots of planes out looking for us this time. We dove again and again but tried to come up each time so that we could make some time. In the afternoon one spotted us for sure and, as we passed one hundred feet on the way down, BANG!...BANG!

Two bombs--not too close, but they sure got our attention.

A half hour later, just as we were getting ready to come to periscope depth, BANG!

"Well," said Dykers, "I think we'll stay down a little longer."

We surfaced at dark and proceeded to pass through the Mindoro Strait.

... Soon we passed through the Sibutu Passage, near the northeastern tip of Borneo, and entered the Celebes Sea. Each day brought more patrol planes and more emergency dives, but we had to stay up as much as we could during the day if we wanted to get to Australia within a month.

Note that, in the passage on page 114, Calvert talks about the SD radar. Not the SJ. And it all happened on the Jack's third patrol, February to March 1944.

[Powerthighs]

If Not, I will plot their closest point of travel to judge if I'll be seen.

How the heck do you plot their direction of travel? The SD doesn't give you bearing?

[Crash Dive]

Alot of the times us subs patroled submerged during the day to keep from being detected, the japanese would re-route shipping in areas where a patrol plane spotted a submarine.:ping:

BTW Silent Running is a great read!

[SteamWake]

If Not, I will plot their closest point of travel to judge if I'll be seen.

How the heck do you plot their direction of travel? The SD doesn't give you bearing?

If you have map contacts turned on not only do you get their bearing but also their course and speed. It is sort of a 'cheat' of course but there it is.

[hyperion2206]

The most sucessful captains operated surfaced at all times unless actively avoiding a perceived enemy detection. This assumes using radar, of course. The unsuccessful ones remained submerged during the day when they could find targets and surfaced at night when targets could not be seen. They then returned to port with 24 torpedoes reporting there were no targets available. At the same time Barb and other more daring boats were having a field day.
I'd like to see your sources for this info. You are right abou the Barb but most of the skippers running on the top for extended periods of daylight hours came during the last year of the war when radar had advanced enough and the threat of detection was less than before.
I thought the same as you rrmelend until I read the patrol logs of the USS Gunnel. In 1944 they found out that around the Japanes mainland there were many radar stations and a lot of Japanese ships had radar on board as well. I doubt that the Japanes radar was as effective as the US radars but Japanese radar was jamming the radar of the Gunnel. Although Japanese radar might not have picked up the Gunnel it certainly neutralized Gunnels capability to pick up Japanese shipping.
For example:
2240 (H): S.J.Radar contact, position Lat. 01° - 32.5' N., Long. 120° - 46' E. bearing 243° (T), distance 21,500 yards. The next morning periscope observation disclosed these to be four medium sized tankers escorted by four destroyers. Radar tracking gave target base course of 090° (T), speed 12 knots. They zigged from 060° (T) to 120° (T) about six minutes on each leg. First I tried to close these targets on the port bow, then on the flank, and finally on the port quarter. Each attempt at closing resulted in an escort placing itself between the submarine and the major targets, thus frustrating these endeavors to gain an attack position. There was definite radar interference from the escorts and had been since initial contact. Therefore in tracking, the transmitter was energized at irregular intervals to obtain data for the plotting party. Taken from this site: http://jmlavelle.com/gunnel/patrol4.htm

[rrmelend]

I'm not arguing with what most of what you are saying, and actually most of you are proving my point. Late in the war ('44-'45) many of the younger captains did run on the top a lot. Most of the patrol logs and sources you are quoting come from Feb. '44 or later.

As far as the game goes (that was the original purpose of the post) I don't see a huge issue with the air attacks. I don't really remember how often I was attacked by air before I installed TM. I know that on my last mission I had a photo recon of Yokohama and I was able to sail on the surface all the way to the entrance of the harbor. I know in real life that would have never happened and my exec would have shot me himself if I would have even tried that.

[Munchausen]

most of you are proving my point

Yes and no.

Yes, there were planes flying patrol ... especially close to Japanese ports. You should've been tracked, attacked and probably sunk had you stayed on the surface during daylight hours. The Jack's first patrol took her captain and crew to the mouth of Tokyo Bay and at no time could they surface during daylight hours without coming under air attack.

But, no, not every skipper remained at periscope depth ... especially if far enough away from immediate danger. Mush Morton was one of the first U.S. skippers who, early on, remained on the surface until forced down by a definite threat ... and, even then, sometimes escaped only by the skin of his teeth.

Until, of course, he didn't (escape).

[hyperion2206]

I'm not arguing with what most of what you are saying, and actually most of you are proving my point. Late in the war ('44-'45) many of the younger captains did run on the top a lot. Most of the patrol logs and sources you are quoting come from Feb. '44 or later.

As far as the game goes (that was the original purpose of the post) I don't see a huge issue with the air attacks. I don't really remember how often I was attacked by air before I installed TM. I know that on my last mission I had a photo recon of Yokohama and I was able to sail on the surface all the way to the entrance of the harbor. I know in real life that would have never happened and my exec would have shot me himself if I would have even tried that.

You're completely right when you say that late in the war radar made it much safer for subs and I just posted this excerpt because I was surprised that the Japanese were able to jamm US radars.
And you're right as well with the air attacks game wise. SInce the devs fixed the SD radar I was only attacked once by a Betty (just because I wanted to get ahead of a TF and didn't think the Betty had spotted me:dead:).
Another fact that surprised me when reading Gunnel's logs was that often planes were detected by the watch and not by radar.

[leovampire]

What I did was add AI Visual and AI Radar to the Air Bases and Port's in my game so now something else pay's attention to what is going on rather than just the plane's and ship's.

I also added it to all the Carrier's in the game to make it harder to aproach them and as soon as I am detected then they launch the plane's like crazy bombing the area as long as it is day time.

Try doing this in your game to make it harder and more interesting.