1st attempt at a proper patrol [Archive] - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

Penelope_Grey

10-24-07, 02:51 PM

Have to say I'm extremely disapointed. :down:

I attacked a convoy in a Salmon class, due to the layout of the convoy and the fact it was very light night, I had to make a submerged attack, no problem. Everything is going fine, got two big beasties. Then I submerged down to 300ft to escape.

And nobody even came close to laying a depthcharge on me. Yet, all of a sudden everything starts getting damaged! I don't even know why. And the sub was destroyed. Totally destroyed.

I can't believe what happened, I truly can't. It was a real enjoyment killer...

mookiemookie

10-24-07, 03:03 PM

Were you damaged previously? Any kind of prior hull damage can seriously limit your ability to dive deep without being crushed. SH4 doesn't, at present, give you a hull damage percentage number like SH3 does. If you see spraying water in your conning tower or control room, you'll know you have hull damage.

And of course, you didn't hit bottom, did you?

Also, remember that Japanese ASW was not very good at the beginning of the war. Funny thing about SH4...sometimes you'll get a destroyer crew full of idiots, and sometimes you'll get the devil. You never can tell.

Penelope_Grey

10-24-07, 03:10 PM

Nope the sub was in perfect working order, showroom condition, and not so much as a scratch on the hull! There was no damage at all prior or during the attack. It just literally started falling to bits and despite my blowing ballast to lessen depth... nope. Wrecked!

donut

10-24-07, 03:18 PM

My dear we found a more refined Mermaid ,for you http://icons.iconator.com/570/ICONATOR_8cdf202c716ef04dee67c1ff1ef8995c.gif (http://www.iconator.com/icon.php?IconID=780991)Avatar
You would think an S class,would take 300 Ft. Any previous damage ?

AVGWarhawk

10-24-07, 03:18 PM

I ran into that once. Bobbing around inside the convoy. Not a scratch on the sub and wham! All hell breaks loose and down I go into the abyss. Strange indeed. I do not know what caused it but I never had it happen again.

Penelope_Grey

10-24-07, 03:44 PM

Its SH4, nuff said.:lol:

AVGWarhawk

10-24-07, 03:48 PM

Its SH4, nuff said.:lol:

Sometimes a true enough statement:rotfl: All in all the game runs just great on my computer. No CTD at all. But yeah, this is a strange occurance and I had it only once.

I'm still glad you are giving it a run for the money! It has come a long way since the dark ages of release.

donut

10-24-07, 03:49 PM

Battle sta.,damage team,run silent,just under thermal.hit "A" key.1Kts. If you take damage,blow to PD.Flank,turn off silent,& fight it out.:sunny:

Ducimus

10-24-07, 04:02 PM

sound like a relativly unmodded game.

- AI not DC close enough, i helped with that in TMaru. Its not as hard as the atlantic, but better then stock. I could have made it harder, but opted not to.

- Sub crush at 300 ft. Theres a bug where you wont see pressure damage anywhere except the conning tower. If your standing in the control room, you won't notice, and then die for seemingly no reason at all.

Penelope_Grey

10-24-07, 04:30 PM

Ducimus

10-24-07, 04:45 PM

Detection rules for SH4 are the same as SH3. Just don't leave your periscope up for very long, and use thermal layers. At night time, don't get any closer then 3,000 yards on the surface, bows on. Personnaly i get no closer then 3500. As much as i hate pimping myself out. Try TM 1.6.4 with ROW textures if you haven't already, it seems to make a big difference to some peoples enjoyment of the game.

Personnaly, id advise against playing stock, it will traumatize a person. If SH4 stock was all there was, id have quit awhile ago.

AVGWarhawk

10-24-07, 04:59 PM

Personnaly, id advise against playing stock, it will traumatize a person.

That is just funny Duci :rotfl:

AVGWarhawk

10-24-07, 05:02 PM

I tried again with this convoy and it made me nostalgic for the Atlantic if I'm honest.

I think I may have had a task force run in as there were a hell of a lot of warships. I opted to try and attack the merchants, but, its impossible, I can't manage to attack without getting detected at all...

And its not as though Im not used to attacking convoys... so... I dunno... The more I play SH4 the more I appreciate SH3. So I suppose tonight has been good for something...

Perhaps you are getting used to handling the convoys of GWX? Now it is the Japanese thinking for ASW? After a while I notice that modded DD can get predictable. Currently I use stock because there is a mix of really good DD and DD that just suck. You do not know what you are going to get. One time playing I decided to surface because I felt the DD were just crap.....I was wrong. Sunk like brick:oops:

Ducimus

10-24-07, 05:04 PM

Personnaly, id advise against playing stock, it will traumatize a person.

That is just funny Duci :rotfl:

It's true man! I never admitted it, but when SH4 first came out.... i was pissed, and dissappointed beyond words. I just never said anything and focused my angst into FTT, now TM. To this day i still cannot stand stock SH4.

AVGWarhawk

10-24-07, 05:08 PM

I can only hope you are on the road to recovery. Very funny statement Duci.....I'm still laughing~

Ducimus

10-24-07, 05:14 PM

Penelope_Grey

10-24-07, 05:19 PM

Ducimus

10-24-07, 05:37 PM

:hmm:

I see a reoccuring trend here. Not you Penelope, just the collage of mods installed. They all don't cohabitate very well with each other, and alot of people are confused with all the options avialable.

The 3 fish into a ship and not sinking bit sounds like TM 1.62 or 1.63, and is my fault, although it could still happen in stock (say if a torpedo exploded 2-3 meters away from the hull, instead of against it). Anyway, glad to see you gave it a try at least. Clear waters, blue sky's, to you.

Penelope_Grey

10-24-07, 05:50 PM

Well attacking this convoy is a nightmare... its sails in a crescent formation... and it has a LOT of ASW vehicles and only about 6 merchant ships. I've tried, but, to be honest, I know its not beyond my ability... so...I'm going to crack this stupid convoy.

It is frustrating me a lot.

AVGWarhawk

10-24-07, 06:06 PM

To be honest Duci I wait to load it because if I dive right in I can not keep the game fresh. In other words, when I grow tired of stock AI reaction I can load up what you have created and it is a new game. Also, at this stage of the game attempting to have all the mods play nice nice can create issues.

Go get'em Penelope.

Ducimus

10-24-07, 06:09 PM

After reareading this thread, i think you ran into a task force. TM users Taters campaign work, which he scripted to be as historically correct traffic. If your seeing ALOT of ASW, its probably a task force. An average jap convoy only has 1 to 3 escorts i think, with an average of 2 columns, maybe 3 columns for a big convoy.

if it is a task force, i highly doubt you'll get inside the formation. About the only way would be to do an end round, dive ON their track, go right down the TF's throat to minimze your profile (in between gaps in escorts of course), then make a hard turn at the last minute and shoot an aft salvo at whatever juicy target is being escorted. After that, you'll probably catch hell.

Penelope_Grey

10-24-07, 06:13 PM

My last attempt I did get inside, but didn't sink nuthing... ugh!

Ducimus

10-24-07, 06:16 PM

Can you print out a list of what mods your running?

Other minor items of note:
- US torpedos suck at the start of the war

- Warships are legit targets in the pacifc. Unlike the allies who could outproduce, the japanese can't (historically). At one point an order was issued to prioritize warships over merchants if i recall misc readings correctly. Sink 'em all!

tater

10-24-07, 06:18 PM

I tried to make things more historically plausible, but still with variability.

It's entirely possible that it's a convoy. Jap convoys were small, with 20 ships (aside from early war invasion forces) being HUGE.

If you have 6 merchants and 6 escorts, assume it must be an important convoy, lol. I made some with a very small chance of many escort—you read of a couple ships escorted by 3 escorts sometimes, others might have 5 merchants and no escort.

SO it might have had a 40% chance of 3 corvettes, a 5% chance of a single Minekaze, a 1% chance of some other DD tagging along (perhaps coming or going to the empire for/after a refit, maybe an Aux Subchaser or something @ 5%. Then you hit the jackpot and every single one happens to spawn. Unlikely, but possible. The same convoy could generate again and have no escorts at all (very unlikely, too).

I looked at the expectation values and created convoys that could be pretty variable. Note that with the small escorts (in RL) they used a lot of them, sadly we lack some of the dedicated escorts, as well as smaller ersatz escorts. Note that with my DC mod, the historical DC loads make a HUGE difference in the playability vs such escort counts. I had no idea when I made the campaign that the DC loads were so ridiculously high, frankly (40 DCs per launcher).

tater

Ducimus

10-24-07, 06:26 PM

From what she's written, it looks like RSRD is in the mix too. I have no idea the contents of that mod. As for AI , I know if HibLurker hasnt removed elites, in TM, its gonna be pretty damn hard.

Your campaign files arent totally unaltered. As i recall, i took whatever crew rating you assigned, and added 1 to it, to a maximum of crew rating 3. Elites i removed entirely, save for one bungo pete.

Ive been thinking, we really need to coordinate better in the mod forum. Right now the big packs seem to be ROW, RFB, TM, Your campaign, and RSRD. About the only one that can coexist with anything would be row, the rest conflict somehow.

mookiemookie

10-24-07, 06:49 PM

ironkross

10-24-07, 07:14 PM

Ive been thinking, we really need to coordinate better in the mod forum. Right now the big packs seem to be ROW, RFB, TM, Your campaign, and RSRD. About the only one that can coexist with anything would be row, the rest conflict somehow.
I'd really like to see that. There's elements of all of them that I really like, and I wish more of them would work together. We may end up with a "supermod" yet. :up: I would like to see it too. I like the big mods because you get a whole box of chocolates instead of one piece; but as Gump said "you never know what you'll get."

@PG- I don't think a WWII sub would have tried to take on an IJN Task Force all by itself. So realistically I guess your demise was likely anyway. It all depends what you want from the game, be it realism or an arcade type shooting gallery. Those mods add realism till it hurts.

SteamWake

10-24-07, 07:19 PM

My last attempt I did get inside, but didn't sink nuthing... ugh!

Did you make it out alive ? ;)

Sounds like my patrols.

Penelope_Grey

10-25-07, 04:44 AM

did I make it out alive?

Yes. They never even found me this time. Pacific tactics are a bit different to Atlantic tactics and I had to learn that on the fly to be successful.

I eventually ditched the up close and personal attack and went for a classic surface attack. :up: I got two sub chasers and a 5000 ton thingamabob... can't recall the name of the ship... the other ship I attacked was a 10, 000 ton old passenger liner, and well, despite putting 6 torpedoes into him the fecker was still afloat. I had to laugh the destroyers were going nuts trying to find me in the convoy and I was like yoo hoo, Im over here! :rotfl:

Oh it was a giggle in the end. I do like the mission objectives that SH4 gives you, that is pretty nice.

Torplexed

10-25-07, 06:09 AM

Oh it was a giggle in the end.
I would love to see the look on some crusty American admiral's face when he reads that in your patrol log. :cool:

tater

10-25-07, 08:16 AM

True, if RSRD was in there, any number of "bungo petes" could have been escorting, lol.

AVGWarhawk

10-25-07, 09:28 AM

swdw

10-25-07, 09:56 AM

I think being too deep too long results in muchos pain for the sub. it died again. They just don't have the ability to suffer great depth too long unlike the trusty U-boat. Which I am very used to.

I also put 3 torpedoes into two ships and they didn't sink... ugh.

Welcome to the pacific- quite a shocker for u-boat fans.

First, US subs were NOT as good at deep dives as U-boats until late in the war. That red line on the depth gauge is more than a mild recommendation.;) SH4 seems to allow cumulative damage the longer you stay past max recommended depth.

Because of this, you enter and exit a convoyt at depths that'd make a U-boat skipper snicker. Which means you're at depths that are easier to be detected, the thermal layer is very helpful, and the profile you offer is very important.

Plus in shallow water, it's like the Med- crystal clear which makes even a submerged boat easier to spot. Not sure if the game simulates this though.

Then there's the wonderful american torpedoes (NOT). Gyro problems, contact detonator problems (a hit at 90 degrees can make it a dud), running too shallow problems, magnetic detonators causing premature or late explosions- and on top of that, I believe they have smaller warheads than their german counterparts. So it may take more actual hits because of the warhead size. Plus you have to distribute your hits along the hull. 3 fish in one compartment will not sink a ship.

Never played SH3, so I'm wondering- ever had a torpedo circle back on you and detonate in SH3? One more thing the wonderful US fish can do.:doh:

Be interesting to know, if you had the fish set for contact influence (magnetic detonator) when you attacked the liner, how many of them blew up close to the target , but far enough away to only do minor damage. Nothing like firing 8 fish at one freighter in 3 different salvos, have 2 miss completely fore and aft of the target, one go clean under the keel and explode 30 seconds later, 2 hit but they're duds , one circle back on you and thankfully prematurely detonate off the port side of the torpedo room (still raised cain with the damage it created- but it wasn't a direct hit), and only wind up with 2 hits out of 8 fish because of torpedo problems. Too bad we can't send nastygrams to the Bureau of Ordenance in the game:p

Sad thing is- this is historically accurate and is no ways near as bad as "Mush" Morton and the Wahoo's worst experience.:huh:

So welcome to the Pacific where everything is screwy compared to the Atlantic.:lol:

swdw

10-25-07, 10:03 AM

if it is a task force, i highly doubt you'll get inside the formation. About the only way would be to do an end round, dive ON their track, go right down the TF's throat to minimze your profile (in between gaps in escorts of course), then make a hard turn at the last minute and shoot an aft salvo at whatever juicy target is being escorted. After that, you'll probably catch hell.
Did that in the Palalu Passage mission- it worked. Posted the pics too. Got one BB and 2 CA's.

And Penelope, somethines the Jap escorts are downright deadly and at other times they can be complete buffoon's. Was that way earlier in the Pacific War in real life too.

Plus, until mid/late 1943, the escorts never set a depth charge to go off below somewhere between 150 to 200 ft I believe. So if you could dive fast, you could get away. Tater's tried to simulate this, but no go so far. British escorts would be aghast at such shoddy ASW tactics.

Yep- the pacific is a completely different animal than the atlantic- but a lot prettier.

Ducimus

10-25-07, 11:03 AM

True, if RSRD was in there, any number of "bungo petes" could have been escorting, lol.

:o:o:o

Is Bungo Pete in RSRD???? If so, this would explain the two DD that were relentlessly attacking me!!! Good Lord! One is bad enough but two?:-?

Oh my god. If Lurker used destroyer escorts in RSRD, then ........ oh yes. Bungo pete could appear ANYWHERE where a MIS file is calling on a "generic destroyer escort". This would be a "Very Bad thing (TM)". I deliberatly designed the Akikaze to be death encarnate, only because he was only going to appear in one location. Since no MIS layer used generic destroyer escort, i could do this. If any campaign work uses "generic destroyer escort" in its convoys, and is ran in with TMaru, it will make the atlantic look like disneyland.

Plus in shallow water, it's like the Med- crystal clear which makes even a submerged boat easier to spot. Not sure if the game simulates this though.

It doesnt now, but i think it might be possible. I've had this devilsh little idea in my mind, i just need to try it out and see if it will work. Idea is simple. Have multiple visual nodes, assign planes their own visual node, and then lower minheight of the visual node from 0.X to be -12. (buahahahahhah! )

AVGWarhawk

10-25-07, 11:12 AM

Oh my god. If Lurker used destroyer escorts in RSRD, then ........ oh yes. Bungo pete could appear ANYWHERE where a MIS file is calling on a "generic destroyer escort". This would be a "Very Bad thing (TM)". I deliberatly designed the Akikaze to be death encarnate, only because he was only going to appear in one location. Since no MIS layer used generic destroyer escort, i could do this. If any campaign work uses "generic destroyer escort" in its convoys, and is ran in with TMaru, it will make the atlantic look like disneyland.

:o Word on the waves he is in there. I think we have met:o

kikn79

10-25-07, 12:23 PM

With every revision of TMaru, i feel better :88)
One of these days you should D/L it and try it, or at least look at it. Preferbly the last version with ROW textures. Ive got stuff in there ranging from monsun boats, to new construction at Mare island (well, not technically mare island, but close enough).

damn. wheres my pimp hat....

Here ya go, Ducimus. You left it at establishment of one of your "laydeez." I told her that I'd bring it back to ya.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb93/kikn79/purple_pimp_hat.jpg

Chuck

Ducimus

10-25-07, 12:29 PM

Sweet, a gold tooth, and a cane, and ill be all set :lol:

mookiemookie

10-25-07, 01:45 PM

Now now, there's nothing wrong with taking pride in your work. :yep:

Ducimus

10-25-07, 02:03 PM

Now now, there's nothing wrong with taking pride in your work. :yep:

I'm not allowed to, or i'll match a sterotype that some apply to my persona. :rotfl:

tater

10-25-07, 03:16 PM

Most stuff is not random in RSRD (meaning few random calls (if any) for escorts.

I was simply thinking of ELITE escorts. Later in the war, in particular, it could get ugly indeed. The kaibokans we both use can be pretty nasty.

tater

Penelope_Grey

10-26-07, 08:29 AM

Well I feel reasonably happy now... I appear to have mastered the surface attack in SH4... only took me a few hours... not bad.:up:

AVGWarhawk

10-26-07, 09:26 AM

Have you run into any of the merchants chasing you? Good Lord, first time I had this I was :o. I was just making a few kts and turned around as I let my gunners fire at the vessel and there was the merchant at 12 kts climbing up my stern. I was surprised to say the least.

Kodaita

10-26-07, 05:13 PM

I was up off Manila and got a radar contact, moved in to intercept. Right then my wife calls me and i forget to pause. Came back to find the merchant about 3 seconds from ramming me. I know he changed course to do it too. Didn't sink me or anything, but man did my boat roll. I made sure to use a few extra shells on his lifeboats after I sank him

clayton

10-27-07, 12:55 AM

Well I feel reasonably happy now... I appear to have mastered the surface attack in SH4... only took me a few hours... not bad.:up:

Not bad at all.

With GWX it takes a lot longer, doesn't it? ;)

Penelope_Grey

10-27-07, 07:52 AM

With GWX it takes a lot longer, doesn't it? ;)

Not really... :-?

Far as I am concerned, both test me, but each in different ways. I actually learned to surface attack on my first attempt in GWX when I tried it, whereas it took several attempts in SH4, so no... I disagree about that. In any case, SH3 is a totally different game. Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges IMO. Which is why I don't do it.

I just wanted to say its quite a nice game.. even though I am not THAT keen on it (currently)... my first patrol went pretty well, winds me up a treat, frustrates me to the hilt, but despite all that... I have a Medal of Honour to show for my first patrol and 50,000 japanese tons at the bottom of the sea! so... I may well dabble again when I get another gap.

Thanks very much gentlemen... I'm going back to the Atlantic now... but best of luck to you all, give them hell! :up:

SteamWake

10-27-07, 07:57 AM

In any case, SH3 is a totally different game. Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges IMO. Which is why I don't do it.

Finally someone with good senses around here.

Now lets argue about apples and oranges :p

swdw

10-27-07, 09:16 AM

Plus in shallow water, it's like the Med- crystal clear which makes even a submerged boat easier to spot. Not sure if the game simulates this though.

It doesnt now, but i think it might be possible. I've had this devilsh little idea in my mind, i just need to try it out and see if it will work. Idea is simple. Have multiple visual nodes, assign planes their own visual node, and then lower minheight of the visual node from 0.X to be -12. (buahahahahhah! )

You're an evviilll man- and I like it! This would be good because diving to PD against an air attack could still get you thrashed if you don't go deeper.

What files would that be in? Still learning the game structure.

Rockin Robbins

10-27-07, 12:15 PM

Quick, someone tell Steeltrap!!! Matter of fact, tell me, because the only successful surface attack I've done was in a raging storm, where I was effectively submerged anyway.

So "I've mastered the surface attack." she says. Took her about an hour, she says. Then "goodbye" she says! :nope:

Worst of all, I suspect she's telling the truth!:damn: Here I've been buggering around the Pacific for months attempting every once and awhile to execute a surface attack, she comes, "masters" it in an hour and leaves! :/\\x: I'm leaving before I say something and get thrown in the brig....

Penelope_Grey

10-27-07, 12:58 PM

Well I'll tell anybody how to do a surface attack in SH4 or 3 if somebody will tell me how to do s submerged attack in SH4!:up:

Because the reason I did a surface attack was because that I was forced to submerged ones were not working for me I kept getting caught.

Its dirt simple, take a few moments to see the composition of the convoy, keep a distance, but not too far so that you can't see whats what. Then you obviously wait till the cover of darkness if its not dark already, see what is the best way into the convoy, and then take it (if need be get into a position first at the edge of visibility). As you are sneaking in, be sure to move slowly as in 6 or 7 knots slowly, so not to make a massive wake and create attention to yourself, fire your torpedoes and then get outta there don't wait for the pretty boom booms.

Obviously while you are in the determining the composition of convoy stage, you take a few moments to decide how you will escape once you have done the deed, do you dive and creep out, or do you make a calm orderly withdrawl on the surface?

Really, its all about patience, and figuring out what you are going to do before you do it. Surface attacks are not impossible, sometimes you can get up close and personal, other times, you have to blast away from a distance. This is what I learned from SH3 at any rate, and while they are two very different games, with a bit of modifacation you can make it work on SH4 too.

clayton

10-27-07, 02:06 PM

You gotta love it when the GWX folks come here to say how 'great SH4 is'...;)

Why else post...

Penelope_Grey

10-27-07, 03:15 PM

"Why else post?"

um...:hmm:

just for the sake of it I guess... Some people, whatever forum you go to, just love to press that "submit reply" button, and any reason or excuse will suffice. :yep:

I never said SH4 is "great", its good, but... well, we all have our preferences.

I for one am glad that the majority of SH4 players who have made me so welcome and were willing to discuss with me the game here did so, thanks to them. :up:

Sailor Steve

10-27-07, 05:23 PM

... Some people, whatever forum you go to, just love to press that "submit reply" button, and any reason or excuse will suffice. :yep:
I DO NOT! I resemble that remark.:rotfl:

Actually I don't reply to a lot of stuff, and I know you weren't singleing me out, but this case I couldn't resist.

Rockin Robbins

10-27-07, 07:17 PM

Well I'll tell anybody how to do a surface attack in SH4 or 3 if somebody will tell me how to do s submerged attack in SH4!:up:
I'd be happy to but WernerSobe has done it MUCH better than I can for TDC/PK technique. His videos are down right now, but the WernerSobe Advanced Submarine School of Attack Tactics (WASSAT) still offers two of the three classes, the first an introduction to SH4 attack philosophy http://files.filefront.com/SH4+Basic+TDC+Tutorial+Wewmv/;8894792;/fileinfo.html and the second an advanced course in Torpedo Data Computer/Position Keeper wizardry at http://files.filefront.com/SH4+Complete+Setup+and+Atewmv/;8894549;/fileinfo.html. If you care to take a seminar on how three of us adapted SH3 techniques to American U-Boats:lol:, dubbing it the Dick O'Kane attack method, check out my seminar at http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=652326&postcount=67. Once you graduate, you'll be a certified killer!:up:

We're still looking for a copy of WernerSobe's tutorial movie on sonar only targeting. If anyone can find a copy, please get it to me and I'll host it with the others. Werner's material is too good for us not to make sure it is always available.