UBISOFT forum

[dean_acheson]

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6421019045/m/7061054895

I saw this today, and was kinda surprised at it.

I really didn't know that there was a degree of 'blood' between us.

I look at both forums, but don't really post over there except very very rarely.

There is good info on both sites. I guess I've just been around here too long not to have my personal favorite.

If this has already been posted/discussed I apologize. I hadn't noticed it.

[clayman]

Ya ... I just returned from there. The thread surprised me in that it addressed it as such. On the other hand ... that he who started the whole 'crazy' mess was still banging away, does not.
.

[MONOLITH]

I was going to sign up over there once I saw AVG posting. But the thread is now locked anyway. So since they can read this, I'll put it here.

I don't know for certain what the past issues between our sites are/were; but from what I could gather from the comments from that side some of the issue seems to be jealousy.

"Why should Subsim get all the inside info first, and not the official forums".

I can see a single reason; the attitude an actions of someone like KFM. Taking an adversarial posture towards UBI or the devs, is not going to make you their favorite. Breaking their trust, threatening and blackmailing them, is not going to make them come to you for support. I know for a fact what info was known here long before it was leaked by KFM, but you don't see a peep of it here anywhere. Subsim offers UBI and the devs, a place that's trustworthy and helpful. The modders here have helped the devs solve problems. Modded files from here have appeared in prior patches, and that is going to happen again.

KFM , on behalf of 'the official forums', can keep beating on the door, and ringing UBI's phones off the hook in daily harassment; and then when he does get some info, blatantly leak it and smack the devs in the face with it. And as long as he does, Subsim is the place the devs will come to for trustworthy and respectful support.

Hats off to Neal and crew. :|\\

[TDK1044]

In my view, the essence of the problem over there is that Ubisoft treats that Forum like a solution to a problem rather than an interactive Forum. In other words, they send their customers there to discuss the game and get free tech support, but Ubisoft chooses not be involved with the Forum beyond that.

As a result of that, and the fact that Neal has a good working relationship with Ubisoft and the Devs, the members and Moderators over there get understandably frustrated that they are always the last to know what's going on.

The particular thread that you offer a link to here, was created as a result of an asinine thread posted by a member over there who went to extraordinary lengths to get some info on the 'Add On' and then leaked the priveledged information to the members there.

There was then a heated debate between those of us who thought that it was simply unethical for the member to do that, and those Ubi members who were simply grateful that for once they actually had some info relating to an upcoming patch....info that we had here since July.

As a result of all of that, a thread was created by another member over there suggesting a collaberation between a small group of members there and here....a sort of committee if you like. Neal, and I think all of the Silent Hunter 4 Moderators agree with him, is of the opinion that such a committee is not a good idea. All that's needed is a cordial, professional relationship between the two Forums.

[AVGWarhawk]

All that's needed is a cordial, professional relationship between the two Forums

I second the motion. Let it go and enjoy the game and mods in the works.

[Rockin Robbins]

We said our piece and called KFM what he is. It's their house to clean and we've made our position clear. I'm pinned down in 90' of water on the west side of Japan and want to get back to port to load the new ROW, TM and tater's depth charge mod. Time to get ziggin' and zaggin'!:arrgh!:

[MONOLITH]

LOL. Good luck RR.

[Onkel Neal]

Submarine forums are great, no matter which banner they are under. The Ubisoft forum is the official forum that has real Ubisoft employees as CMs, Subsim the older and more established forum. The Ubisoft guys get as many scoops and Q&As from the devs as we do. More power to them, too. :up:

Funny thing about whose forum is whose... I've been an Ubisoft forum member way longer than 98% of the guys posting there now. :) I joined Tue January 15 2002 (Hmm... I thought it was a Weds, well, no matter).

[donut]

KFM, (Kentucky Fried Meatball) Cub Reporter:rotfl: Got the scoop !:sunny:

[Reece]

I read the UBI thread from first to last post & certainly KFM wins the wooden spoon award for being the biggest stirrer, but also wins this caption::lol:
KFM ... A legend in his own mind!

[hyperion2206]

I can understand why some guys at the UBI forum are so frustrated. They are members of the official forum for SH4 and yet UBI doesn't seem to care. They just let them stay in the dark alone.
And then they see SubSim, where some people have a good connection with UBI and the devs and get informed about patches etc. Members of the UBI forum are just jealous (I know that "jealous" has a negative connotation but I don't know a better word for it, it's not meant to be offending).
However that isn't and shouldn't be the problem of SubSim. We can and should have a cordial relationship with the UBI forum, but a alliance (or how you want to call it) wouldn't work I think.
The only solution to that problem is that UBI starts talking with their forum members. They should talk with some of the moderators over there and try to set up the same relationship that they have with our moderators.
Just my 2 cents.

[danlisa]

The official Ubi Forums get attention from UBI.
Subsim get attention from the game DEVS.
(rather a simplified version)

I know which I would rather have & we already know that each entity is completely different & seperate. However, this is partly due to Subsim having a larger/more active modding community for the SH series than anywhere else.

More power to both.
Personally, I've made my bed here.:up:

[The General]

@Rockin Robbins

Your post that started: My views have not changed...

on the Ubi forum was awesome R.R!

[capt_frank]

I joined the UBI forum(s) back on 9/1/2002 because of IL2. Joined here in 3/2005. I'm more of a lurker than poster. I absorb both forums for information, how too's, mod information, etc. I have really never thought either forum is better than the other, just different people, different topics, and different methods of expression.

Really, I'll take good info anywhere I can get it, and will be thankful for the heads-up.

Now, back to my dire straits...:p

[TDK1044]

At the end of the day, the Ubi Forum is owned by Ubisoft. How they choose to use it is their call.

At subsim, we have a good working relationship with Ubisoft and their Devs. The Devs come here because we have mods workshops, and they like to interact with modders like Duci, tater etc and see how the game is being modified. They will also drop in on this Forum and answer some technical questions relating to the game.

[Rockin Robbins]

(heavy breathing) OK, I got loose, surfaced and ran from there quick. Throttled back to max range and what does my radar detect? A medium speed 3 ship convoy! Now you know what that means is part of it. But I have two torpedoes, and like a moth for the flame, I have plotted an intercept course to.... This foolishness is what gets good skippers killed.:up:

You can question all you want about Neal putting arguably our leading citizen in the pokey. But it sent a strong statement that we will not let one person (even or especially me:huh:) endanger the usefulness of SUBSIM for everyone. THAT is the difference between Ubi forums and SUBSIM: fair rules, fairly but firmly administered with preference for no one. It doesn't seem like it should be all that difficult, but just try it some time and you'll appreciate the difficulties at Ubi forums. As Donny Osmond sang edit: DIDN't sing! "One bad apple CAN spoil the whole bunch, dear!" Yeah, I know: too old for my own good. Beats the alternative though.:arrgh!: Now the memory's gone, what's next?:88)

[holtzbr]

I hope everybody over yonder at Ubi gets back to sinking stuff and puts a flamer like KFM out of their minds. As a member of both forums (more of a lurker here since '05; more of a poster there) I enjoy what both bring to the table and recognize the different roles that both forums serve.

Just remember that one or two bad apples can make an entire group look bad. KFM certainly accomplished his goals I guess, but he sort of destroyed the village in order to save it, in my mind.

The gang at Ubi's forum is a pretty good gang.

My two cents.

- Holtz

[cdrsubron7]

I've been a member of this forum for over ten years and it's here that I usually come to get information first. Both forums have much to over and alot of good people attend both. One person lit up both forums for whatever reasons of his own and started a real mess, now it's time to let this controversey die. In my estimation Neal Stevens has always been a class act and SubSim has always been a favorite and always will be, but I've grown to like the Ubi SHIV Forums also. This debate between the forums is useless, let's let it die and get back to our job of sinking ships no matter which side of the water were on.




cdrsubron7 (aka Jeff Johnson)

[Wilcke]

I visited UBI frequently in the early days of IL-2, I gradually moved away as SimHQ's IL-2 forum grew and matured. When I started with Subsims early this year it was SubSim that got me "hooked". This is my home!

I am 48 so I do not have much time for the shenanigans that some forums have. Subsim is by far the most mature forum I have visited. Also home to a very creative and hardworking Mod community. Keep up the good work guys!

Wilcke

[MONOLITH]

The official Ubi Forums get attention from UBI.
Subsim get attention from the game DEVS.


I know which I would rather have & we already know that each entity is completely different & seperate.



As someone with some insight into the publisher/developer relationship; I'll take the devs everytime.

Theirs is a true labor of love. They are typically gamers grown up to get gaming jobs.

For the publisher, it's all business.

[Hitman]

Forums wars or even collision? Nonesense :nope: Of course some individuals on both forums might collide and have disputes, but speaking about a tense situation is simply ridiculous. As AVG said, subsim is much more than SH4, it's been here long before and there is no "competing" base with the UBI forums. If some people have obscure interests in making it appear as a forum dispute, that's their problem. To my eyes, I see lots of sub enthusiasts on both forums who 99% of the time come along friendly and have fun.

Moving on now to some more serious things :yep:

[SteamWake]

To me its not even worth bringing up.

I guess some folks just thrive on drama.

[TDK1044]

Two different Forums dealing with the same game from slightly different perspectives. Some people choose to be a member of one of the Forums and some people choose to be a member of both. The Forums have individual identities. Sounds good to me. :D

[clayman]

Exactly ... a common interest in sub sims and/or sims in general. Unfortunately a misguided few seem only interested in 'forum sims'.

[dean_acheson]

To me its not even worth bringing up.

I guess some folks just thrive on drama.

Actually, I brought it up b/c I was surprised that it existed. Before the other day, I didn't know that there was any conflict between the two.

Drama wasn't why I posted this, I was just wondering if anyone here had heard/thought anything.

[Sailor Steve]

I joined the UBI forums on Friday, April 16, 2004. We were waiting for SH3, and there was information there, so I signed up. As the wait grew longer, I noticed more and more threads I termed "childish". By the time SH3 was actually out I hardly went there at all.

I'm not claiming everyone there was like that. I think the problem was a lack of different boards, so every type of thread got posted in the same place. I've often cited a greater maturity at SubSim as the reason I prefer it here, but that's probably not true. I think it's more a case of the place you started at seeming like home. The times I've been directed to the UBI forums, the thread in question was not much different than the threads here.

Like dean acheson, I had no idea there was some kind of 'conflict' going on. Boards don't make conflict, people do.

I read almost every board here, and I like the 'General Topics' board just as much as 'SH4'. I like the variety. That's the main reason I stay, not something I dislike elsewhere.

[Cooter1966]

I didn't realize one guy could cause such a mess. KFM is wrong when he said people went there first, I have been part of Ubi forums(IL2-Lock-On) but it was THIS site that convinced me to purchase SH4 in the first place. As a matter of fact, I didn't even think about the Ubi forum for SH4 until I accidently hit the wrong button on search for IL2 and found it, now I use both for this great game. I feel it's a plus because now I have 2 good places to find info. But when it comes to sub. sims, SUBSIM will be 1st on the list. Great guys, plenty of help and suggestions, that's what's important to me. BTW, out of all the posts I've read here, not once have I seen anyone disrespect the Ubi forum, period. Thank you Neal for a fantastic site, your hard work IS appreciated. Cooter1966

[Gunner]

I would suggest you reread Hitman's post. there is no forum war,it is only in the minds of a few.Being a member of both forums for some time I enjoy both sites for various reasons.Anyhow the Mods at UBI shut down anything to do with KFM thread and to pursue it would not be advisable. Would suggest you do the same here mates and let the Moderators do their job here :arrgh!:

[jazman]

I visited UBI frequently in the early days of IL-2, I gradually moved away as SimHQ's IL-2 forum grew and matured. When I started with Subsims early this year it was SubSim that got me "hooked". This is my home!

I am 48 so I do not have much time for the shenanigans that some forums have. Subsim is by far the most mature forum I have visited. Also home to a very creative and hardworking Mod community. Keep up the good work guys!

Wilcke
Hear, hear! I avoid Ubi forums due to my IL-2 experience. Some of it was amusing, "La-5 is Uber, UFO!" "Two weeks, be sure!" "American 50s are porked!" "Luftwhiners" but it does get a bit repetitive. SimHQ was a pleasant reprieve...

I don't know what it's like over there on the Silent Hunter forums, so I'm not speaking against them...but SubSim is top notch and mature. It's the only place I go for sub stuff, I know a good thing when I find it.

[TDK1044]

I think the Ubisoft Forum is trying to use a third party (subsim) to solve a two party problem between Ubisoft Management and the Ubisoft Forum.

By having that Forum to send their customers to, Ubisoft saves themselves a lot of money by not having to expand their existing Tech Support platform. When you consider that a single level one support technician would cost them about $35,000 per year, it's easy to see why Ubisoft creates a Domain which costs them a fraction of that cost and offers better tech support from people who actually play the game.

That's why Ubisoft sees its own Forum as a solution to a problem, and the company has no interest in interacting with it beyond that. Subsim on the other hand is seen as a respected external vendor which helps Ubisoft to sell more games, and this Forum is therefore treated differently.

[Herr Graf]

hyperion2206 has it right about UBI, the problem with UBI is a corperate culture that borders on paranoid in regards to releasing information about up and coming games, add on's and patches.
The community at large has always had a better realtionship with the Dev's than UBI it seems, lol.
People are mistaking if anyone thinks UBI is going to release any information or good news until things 120% on there way.
Look at IL2,
Oleg has not posted at the UBI forums in some time but posts new information and updates on the IC forums.
He gives interviews to magazines and at trade shows and answers questions via e-mail from regular users often.
However not a peep from UBI, nada.
I see UBI trying though and getting better and I do think that the current batch of community managers really care about the community.
Just dont hold your breath waiting for updates from UBI, the marketing department seems to be out of step with the community and you will read any new news last on the official forums.

[hyperion2206]

Yeah, Ubisoft is really secretive, sometimes I wonder if Dick Cheney works for them.:dead: I remember sending their support 2 mails asking when the newest CSI game was goin to be released and they didn't even respond. I normally do get pissed off when I get one of these standard mails but getting no response at all is just......:down:

[peanuts111358]

Without opening old wounds or starting a flaming war, I feel the need to comment on this subject.

Before I do, I should probably introduce myself, as I am fairly new to these forums. However, I am not new to the Ubi forums. I have been going there for some time, and as long as I continue to buy Ubi products I will continue to support and participate on their official forum.

First of all, I would like to say that is comments like the first few on this thread that keep me from these forums. It is this "Our forums are better than yours, so deal with it" attitude that make me sick. Whether most of you care to admit it or not, I can sense by reading some of the threads on these forums, and especially this one, that there still remains tension and division between the two different forums.

I am proud and honored that a member of the Ubi forums was trying to extend an olive branch and try to unite these two forum communities. It would be wonderful if both forums could not get along better and support one another instead of the division and tension there seems to be between them. It surprises me that many of you on these forums do not wish to build bridges.

As far as KFM is concerned, I was just as appaulled (sp) as you all here are at his actions and what he did. He may have meant well, but the way he went about it and what followed was... well... ok... I'll drop the discussion about KFM. What is done is done. That cannot be changed. The damage is done and now it's time to rebuild. It's time to forgive and forget and move forward. For the most part, the members at the Ubi forum are friendly and helpful and are SH4 enthusiasts just like you here. Don't let one bad apple spoil the rest of the apple bin.

As far as the Devs being on these forums makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The Ubi forums are the official forums for UbiSoft. They should be on those forums... and I am not saying this because of any "jealousy" or whatever. It is just plain logics that they should be on the official UbiSoft forums since SH4 is an UbiSoft product. In my understanding, these subsim forums are for submarine sims in general, which would cover all other submarine simulations on the market including SH4, but since SH4 is an UbiSoft product, it is only logical that most of the SH4 discussions should be held on the Ubi forums, and this includes the SH4 Devs being on their company forums. I hope this makes sense to you all.

Anyway, just as one of the members from the Ubi forums has already done, I too would like to extend an olive branch and suggest we build bridges and mend fences instead of continuing this tension and division between the two forums. Life is too short for this kind of nonesense. Let's all just try to get along on this little spec of a place called Earth in this enormous galaxy and universe we live in. Let both forum communities become one for an even better SH4 1.5 (if there will be one) and even a possible SH5. To help build a bridge between the Ubi forums and these forums, I will do 2 things. First, I will ignore the first few posts on this thread in regards to that "Our forums are better than yours" attitude and forget they were even posted. Secondly, (and this one has a condition) I will encourage members of the Ubi forums to post on these forums *BUT* members from these forums should also be invited and encouraged to visit and participate on the Ubi forums as well. What do you say? Quite some time ago, a good friend of mine gave me some advise, and to this day, I still apply it. He said, "Be careful of any bridges you burn behind you because you never know when you may need them".

[maerean_m]

For a SH4 dev, ubiforums would be like a duty/obligation but subsim is purely about passion for the game and for the genre. Even more, any opinion expressed in the ubiforums would be like a statement coming for the "big ubi" company, which is more than false.

And I don't know any software developers that have "participate in official forum" in their job description.

Official forums are created because some guy said so in a board meeting. And when a company subsidiary creates a product (not necessarily a software product), the same guy said "ok, create a thread for them too". That's it. Where's the passion in that? I see none.

As said in the Constitution, people can gather any way they like. People (including the creators of the product) can gather on official forums and/or on unofficial forums with no right for anybody to condemn them (not that you, peanuts111358, do).

[TDK1044]

For a SH4 dev, ubiforums would be like a duty/obligation but subsim is purely about passion for the game and for the genre. Even more, any opinion expressed in the ubiforums would be like a statement coming for the "big ubi" company, which is more than false.

And I don't know any software developers that have "participate in official forum" in their job description.

Official forums are created because some guy said so in a board meeting. And when a company subsidiary creates a product (not necessarily a software product), the same guy said "ok, create a thread for them too". That's it. Where's the passion in that? I see none.

As said in the Constitution, people can gather any way they like. People (including the creators of the product) can gather on official forums and/or on unofficial forums with no right for anybody to condemn them (not that you, peanuts111358, do).



I think Mahai states it very well. The two Forums were created for different reasons. This one was formed by Neal (using his own money) because of his passion for Naval warfare, and the other was formed by Ubisoft as a solution to a problem.

Trying to create some kind of committee using members of both Forums is unworkable and unnecessary in my view. There's nothing to be gained there.

[Dagooz]

I have until now primarily posted at the UBI forum though not that much lately. But to be honest I am monitoring this forum more and more, while being less and less on the UBI forum. There is a lot of good guys over there but I'm getting tired of reading stuff like what KFM has caused lately and like "I'm gonna sue XXX" etc. (back when the game came out). I liked the old sh3 forum there better.
Other than that the UBI forums is not set up for support and modding nearly as good as the subsim ones. There is a discussion section and a support section and no sub-categories....

[SteamWake]

Again this topic is not really not worth even discussing. Its like a mosquito bite the more you scratch it the worse it gets. Quit scratchin will ya ?

I'm only posting to point out an observation.

It is curious to me that a person in Romainia would quote the constitution :hmm:

He is right of course it just struck me as curious.

[maerean_m]

It is curious to me that a person in Romania would quote the constitution :hmm:

That's a bit offending.

Mihai Maerean

[SteamWake]

It is curious to me that a person in Romania would quote the constitution :hmm:

That's a bit offending.

Mihai Maerean

Well sorry about that :oops:

It wasent meant in an offensive manner. In fact it was a just bit of good ole american pride leaking through.

I apologize if it was taken that way. It was more out of curiosity than anything. Id go into greater detail but we dont need to fill the forums with (more) politics. Espically in this thread.

[Kodaita]

I personally don't like Peanuts idea of "Let both forum communities become one" I do spend time reading the posts at the UBI forum, and both forums have very different ways of expressing themselves. The threads at UBI do seem to escalate into flame wars more often, and I've seen a whole lot of people trashing UBI, the Devs and everyone else connected with making or producing the SH series. Here, I rarely see people getting ticked off at each other, and negative comments about UBI or the dev team are vastly fewer and those that are made are pale in comparision.

Subsim does seem to enjoy a much closer relationship with UBI and the dev team than the UBI forum does. Is that right? Probably not. But let's not forget that if the UBI forums conducted themselves in the same manner we do, chances are they wouldn't be in the leaky boat their in. I see no reason for SUBSIM to pull along side and tie up to help keep them afloat. That just risks dragging this forum down with them. If they want devs and UBI to pay more attention, then fix the issues that keep them away.

[TDK1044]

I personally don't like Peanuts idea of "Let both forum communities become one" I do spend time reading the posts at the UBI forum, and both forums have very different ways of expressing themselves. The threads at UBI do seem to escalate into flame wars more often, and I've seen a whole lot of people trashing UBI, the Devs and everyone else connected with making or producing the SH series. Here, I rarely see people getting ticked off at each other, and negative comments about UBI or the dev team are vastly fewer and those that are made are pale in comparision.

Subsim does seem to enjoy a much closer relationship with UBI and the dev team than the UBI forum does. Is that right? Probably not. But let's not forget that if the UBI forums conducted themselves in the same manner we do, chances are they wouldn't be in the leaky boat their in. I see no reason for SUBSIM to pull along side and tie up to help keep them afloat. That just risks dragging this forum down with them. If they want devs and UBI to pay more attention, then fix the issues that keep them away.



I agree with the vast majority of your post, but in all fairness to the Ubi Forum, they are pretty much ignored by Ubisoft. It must be very frustrating for them to be the 'Official Forum' as they like to refer to themselves, and have little or no communication with Ubisoft on any level.

I've stated here and elsewhere why I think that is, and I think Mahai has stated perfectly as one of the Devs why he and the other Devs choose to come here rather than the Ubi Forum.

[Kodaita]

I agree with both you and Mihai Maerean about your reasons, I just think that their attitude over at the UBI forums is also to blame. What I mean is, that people here at SUBSIM knew about the SH4 patch since July and never spilled the beans. If someone had, would we still be as trusted as before? That's just one example to be sure. But this forum is professional and fair, UBI and the dev's trust us, look what happens when they tried the same with KFM at the UBI forums. So our attitude has to count for something.

[peanuts111358]

I agree with both you and Mihai Maerean about your reasons, I just think that their attitude over at the UBI forums is also to blame. What I mean is, that people here at SUBSIM knew about the SH4 patch since July and never spilled the beans. If someone had, would we still be as trusted as before? That's just one example to be sure. But this forum is professional and fair, UBI and the dev's trust us, look what happens when they tried the same with KFM at the UBI forums. So our attitude has to count for something.

It is posts such as this that do more damage than good. This "our forums are better than your forums" attitude really needs to stop. This finger pointing and such do not help anyones cause. It makes everyone look bad and noone comes out of it clean and spotless.

I have been around both these forums and this particular subject long enough to see both sides are equal to blame for the root of this whole mess. On this side of the fence, I blame Ubi and their Devs for ignoring the official Ubi forums. Would it have been so difficult for someone official from Ubi to post something on the Ubi forums stating that they are listening and there is (or isnt) a patch in the works? The members at Ubi forum just want to hear from UbiSoft on their forums once in a while. Is that too much to ask? I dont think so. On the other side of the fence, I blame KFM for the damage that was done. His intentions may have been good (in trying to get some official Ubi representation on the Ubi forums) but his method of doing it, and then leaking info were wrong and in bad taste. Regardless, what is done is done. The damage has been done. I am sure many people have learned from this whole experience, so it is time to forgive and forget and "bury the hatchet" and move forward.

[Rockin Robbins]

I agree with both you and Mihai Maerean about your reasons, I just think that their attitude over at the UBI forums is also to blame. What I mean is, that people here at SUBSIM knew about the SH4 patch since July and never spilled the beans. If someone had, would we still be as trusted as before? That's just one example to be sure. But this forum is professional and fair, UBI and the dev's trust us, look what happens when they tried the same with KFM at the UBI forums. So our attitude has to count for something.
It is posts such as this that do more damage than good. This "our forums are better than your forums" attitude really needs to stop. This finger pointing and such do not help anyones cause. It makes everyone look bad and noone comes out of it clean and spotless.

I have been around both these forums and this particular subject long enough to see both sides are equal to blame for the root of this whole mess. On this side of the fence, I blame Ubi and their Devs for ignoring the official Ubi forums. Would it have been so difficult for someone official from Ubi to post something on the Ubi forums stating that they are listening and there is (or isnt) a patch in the works? The members at Ubi forum just want to hear from UbiSoft on their forums once in a while. Is that too much to ask? I dont think so. On the other side of the fence, I blame KFM for the damage that was done. His intentions may have been good (in trying to get some official Ubi representation on the Ubi forums) but his method of doing it, and then leaking info were wrong and in bad taste. Regardless, what is done is done. The damage has been done. I am sure many people have learned from this whole experience, so it is time to forgive and forget and "bury the hatchet" and move forward.
The difference is one of anarchy vs. order, rule of the predator vs. rules protecting the innocent from predation. The moderators at Ubi forums believe that their members should be allowed to engage in conduct that results in harm to their group, insulting Ubi and the devs, demanding that a company which owns all rights to its intellectual property conform to their will, treating others with disrespect, all this is specifically defended by their mods in PMs to me. Additionally, favoritism is shown in treatment, where two members can say the same thing. One will be terminated and the other supported.

Contrast that with SUBSIM where Ducimus (sorry, don't mean to embarass you Ducimus, I'm one of your greatest fans) overstepped the clearly written rules (His conduct was far milder than normal everyday shenanigans at Ubi forum) and in spite of his status here as a leader among leaders, was slapped in the brig and given a barrel of potatoes to peel with a dull knife! That's a powerful statement of rule of law and not of men. It is a powerful statement that justice is not an idle concept here, but all are expected to represent SUBSIM well and contribute to its well-being with our conduct toward each other and the game companies. This involves some voluntary loss of freedom but we like the bargain!:arrgh!:

We were forced to act when KFM chose to export his anarchy by proxy to SUBSIM, sounding his clarion call in our forum to join his temper tantrum. At that point it was absolutely necessary that we strongly go on record as opposing such a foolish action, which could only result in harm for the game genre we love. We value our relationship with the developers. We engage with Ubi as friends and helpers. These relationships have been built with years of mutual trust and cooperation. Endangering that status by calling SUBSIM members to anarchy must result in strong and decisive counteraction. That is precisely what rightly happened, and would happen again if a similar situation were to recur. We are very different than Ubi forums. Make your own value judgment.

Glossing over this important and vital difference isn't just unfortunate, it's self-defeating. I would certainly oppose joining with a group so blind as not to see the desirability of acting in its own best interest.

[Herr Karl]

I only go to the Ubi site for patches. I come here because of the best mods around, and the discussions on game topics are very informative, and a lot of fun.

I do really appreciate the fact that our friends from Romania stop in and participate in our discussions. As far as forums go, I think it's just individual choice. Not whether one is better than the other.

As Maurean_ said, the devs have no obligation to post at the Ubi forum. I believe the devs like the mod participation here, which is really great. I think we are all fortunate that we do have a choice as to where we glean our information concerning our favorite games in my opinion.

I wouldn't read to much into the choice's people make--good or bad.

Cheers :sunny:

[AVGWarhawk]

I only go to the Ubi site for patches. I come here because of the best mods around, and the discussions on game topics are very informative, and a lot of fun.

I do really appreciate the fact that our friends from Romania stop in and participate in our discussions. As far as forums go, I think it's just individual choice. Not whether one is better than the other.

As Maurean_ said, the devs have no obligation to post at the Ubi forum. I believe the devs like the mod participation here, which is really great. I think we are all fortunate that we do have a choice as to where we glean our information concerning our favorite games in my opinion.

I wouldn't read to much into the choice's people make--good or bad.

Cheers :sunny:


Nice post and I agree 100%:up:

[peanuts111358]

LOL... I see that some of you have got your heads in the sand so deep you fail to see what the real issue is here. I have tried my best to point it out to you but you refuse to see it. Maybe you dont want to see it.

For those of you that genuinely do not understand the root problem here, let me spell it out to you as clear as I possibly can.

The Ubi forums are the official forums of UbiSoft. That is where most people go if they have questions about bugs or patches or whatnot. Unfortunately, the Devs of UbiSoft are camping on these forums, and there is no offical representation from UbiSoft on the Ubi official forums. Even though the Ubi forums are the official forums of UbiSoft, they seem to ignore those forums. Even though members of the Ubi forums are not in the loop as far as updates and patches and, they try their best to help those that come to the forums, with the best of their ability. This leaves the members of the Ubi forums frustrated because, we, ourselves there, do not get any kind of acknowledgement from UbiSoft about anything.

Many of you are probably right now thinking, "Our forums are better than your forums and therefore the Devs are here and not there... so deal with it". Well... let us see how many of you would feel if the roles were reversed and the Ubi Devs were actually on the official Ubi forums. I am sure many of you would be bitter and singing a different tune if you would not get any kind of official acknowledgement from UbiSoft.

It is this root issue that started that whole mess with KFM. He tried to make a little noise so that UbiSoft would stop ignoring their own official forums. He tried to get someone from UbiSoft to post something... anything... on the Ubi forums. Well...one thing led to another and well, the rest is history as they say. I admit he gave the Ubi forums a bit of a black eye and unfortunately it also makes many of the members there look bad too because we are "guilty by association". I am pretty confident that this whole matter has been dealt with between the forum moderators there and KFM.

Let me ask you one thing here. Even if that whole episode with KFM would not have happened, would some of you have a more positive attitude toward the Ubi forums? I highly doubt it. It really sounds like a lot of you are just using this whole KFM thing to just fan the flames that have been burning for some time between the two forums. Some of you are so bent of fighting and fanning the flames no matter what happens. It is to those that I must say I really feel sorry for you. Is your real life lacking so much that you must cause division and fighting on these forums? Come on people... grab a life. Life is too short for this in-fighting and bickering and finger pointing. I am assuming most of you here are adults... so I suggest you start growing up and acting like an adult. Lets tear down any walls there are between the two forums and all get along with each other and with UbiSoft for the enjoyment and betterment of the company and their products they produce.

[Onkel Neal]

The Ubi forums are the official forums of UbiSoft. That is where most people go if they have questions about bugs or patches or whatnot. Unfortunately, the Devs of UbiSoft are camping on these forums, and there is no offical representation from UbiSoft on the Ubi official forums. Even though the Ubi forums are the official forums of UbiSoft, they seem to ignore those forums. Even though members of the Ubi forums are not in the loop as far as updates and patches and, they try their best to help those that come to the forums, with the best of their ability. This leaves the members of the Ubi forums frustrated because, we, ourselves there, do not get any kind of acknowledgement from UbiSoft about anything.

Many of you are probably right now thinking, "Our forums are better than your forums and therefore the Devs are here and not there... so deal with it". Well... let us see how many of you would feel if the roles were reversed and the Ubi Devs were actually on the official Ubi forums. I am sure many of you would be bitter and singing a different tune if you would not get any kind of official acknowledgement from UbiSoft.

It is this root issue that started that whole mess with KFM. He tried to make a little noise so that UbiSoft would stop ignoring their own official forums. He tried to get someone from UbiSoft to post something... anything... on the Ubi forums. Well...one thing led to another and well, the rest is history as they say. I admit he gave the Ubi forums a bit of a black eye and unfortunately it also makes many of the members there look bad too because we are "guilty by association". I am pretty confident that this whole matter has been dealt with between the forum moderators there and KFM.

Let me ask you one thing here. Even if that whole episode with KFM would not have happened, would some of you have a more positive attitude toward the Ubi forums? I highly doubt it. It really sounds like a lot of you are just using this whole KFM thing to just fan the flames that have been burning for some time between the two forums. Some of you are so bent of fighting and fanning the flames no matter what happens. It is to those that I must say I really feel sorry for you. Is your real life lacking so much that you must cause division and fighting on these forums? Come on people... grab a life. Life is too short for this in-fighting and bickering and finger pointing. I am assuming most of you here are adults... so I suggest you start growing up and acting like an adult. Lets tear down any walls there are between the two forums and all get along with each other and with UbiSoft for the enjoyment and betterment of the company and their products they produce.

I pretty much agree with all you said, especially
Life is too short for this in-fighting and bickering and finger pointing.

Guys, let's stop the us vs them slant.

thanks, I appreciate the help on this one
Neal

[MONOLITH]

I appreciate the help on this one
Neal


And that, should be all anyone needs to hear.

[maerean_m]

As for SH4 goes, writing on ubiforums or subsim is like radioing to the aliens. None of it reaches the destination, ever.

The link is broken in both ways: gamer-forum, forum-dev. Gamers don't get anything from the devs, the devs don't hear anything from the gamers.

I have to personally visit the forum in my own spare time and try and read all relevant posts to find feedback and collect, filter and sort the pointed out problems.

And since is happening in my spare time, I, for one, decided to come here (for reasons stated before).

Don't blame the devs for the broken link. They are the ones trying to build a bridge.

I think the paying customers should talk to the support service (which ubiforum isn't) and tell them to hire somebody to:
1. make official announcements on the forum
2. read all relevant posts to find feedback and collect, filter and sort the pointed out problems and then send them to the dev team (of that particular ubisoft game). I'm talking about all Ubisoft games, not just SH4.

The problem comes from the fact that the paying customers think of ubiforum as a support service. Ubisoft seems to disagree (as it has a specialized service for that).

Can't accuse Ubisoft either, they're paying for the forum and the support service.

Maybe you should create a union or something, to do the collecting, filtering and sorting and then send the feedback to Support. But then you'll be doing their job. Complicated issue http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/1.gif