Turkey Recalls US Ambassador

[geetrue]

Does this mean war?

http://www.abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=3717813

I hope Turkey doesn't have any aircraft carriers steaming for Hawaii :o

[The Avon Lady]

Shame on Bush (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/018424.php). :down:

[CB..]

"This resolution is not the right response to these historic mass killings," Bush told reporters at the White House.


what he forgot was the additional "AT THIS TIME"

if Turkey had have refused Bush the right to use their airspace...who knows what the right time would have been then..

[SUBMAN1]

Something tells me we are going to see Turkish tanks in Northern Iraq soon.

-S

[The Avon Lady]

Something tells me we are going to see Turkish tanks in Northern Iraq soon.
They're here (http://news.search.yahoo.com/news/search?p=turkey+kurds&c=)!

[SUBMAN1]

Something tells me we are going to see Turkish tanks in Northern Iraq soon. They're here (http://news.search.yahoo.com/news/search?p=turkey+kurds&c=)!
Not quite, but recalling an ambassidor is a strong signal. He is not coming back as they claim, and they probably plan to attack certain Kurdish factions I would guess.

Thanks Pelosi. That's a real class act on foriegn policy (sacasim). Can she have better timing? Is she doing this on purpose? Who the hell elected her? Kalifornian's - I forgot.

-S

[Skybird]

Not quite, but recalling an ambassidor is a strong signal.
:up: How could Germany make Turkey doing this to us, too? :yep:

Congrats for that vote, America. Genocide remains genocide, no matter what strategic interests one has. And if Turkey hates to be reminded of shadows in its past - who outside Turkey gives a penny for that? They simply have not to demand other sovereign nations to be obedient to Turkey's will.

The ties between Turkey and the US are loosening since longer. Even when ignoring my personal scepticism for Turkey, I would recommend America to replace the strategic options Turkey means for them by alternatives, in America's best own interest. The sooner, the better, for nobody must want to depend on Turkey. It will come to that segregation anyway in the not far away future. The only question is wether one wastes time and later needs to change course in a hurry, or if one has enough time to control course and pace of this needed adaptation process.

[August]

While they're at it the US Congress ought to pass a bill denouncing Italy for the things Roman legions did in Gaul.

[SUBMAN1]

While they're at it the US Congress ought to pass a bill denouncing Italy for the things Roman legions did in Gaul.Pretty much my sentiments right there. Let the past, especially many generations ago, but just that - the past. Something that happened 100 years ago with its persecutors long since dead has little semblance on todays politics other than to tick someone off. This is just Pelosi's attempt to screw with Bush's foriegn policy. Tick an ally off in Iraq, so that it is that much harder for Bush not to pull out. That is what she is up to.

-S

[Skybird]

While they're at it the US Congress ought to pass a bill denouncing Italy for the things Roman legions did in Gaul.when Germany still is linked to the Third Reich and the Holocaust, and the genocide of the Hereros in today's Namibia (short before first WW), and Japan still is linked to the brutality of their occupation of China, and the second WW, and Britain still is remineded of certain acts of comparing brutality during the colonial age, just to mention three examples, then it is only fair deal that Turkey is expected to face it's dark spots in history as well. Even more so when considering that Armenians are still opressed today, are discriminated, and as a people still are massively handicapped as a result from those atrocities and removals.

The comparison of Rome and the Gauls I refuse to buy for that reason. america has strategic and military interests in Turkey, and that is the only reason the WH tries to fight against that justified classification of the Armenian killings as genocide.

for comparable reasons, in the UN many massmurderings happening that would fulfill the criteria of the anti-genocide convention of the UN from 1948 are refused to be called genocide, becasue the charta makes it obilgatory that the international community has to take appropriate reaction to intervene in genocides being carried out. Since many are not willing to engage in a given example of genocide, or have interests they give higher priorities than a genocide happening, they refuse to call a genocide as "genocide".

Which means that all Western nations clearly make a difference between genocides they condemn - and genocides that they accept.

Oh yeah, our moral example is so shining and clear.

[SUBMAN1]

While they're at it the US Congress ought to pass a bill denouncing Italy for the things Roman legions did in Gaul.when Germany still is linked to the Third Reich and the Holocaust, and the genocide of the Hereros in today's Namibia (short before first WW), and Japan still is linked to the brutality of their occupation of China, and the second WW, and Britain still is remineded of cerrtain acts of comaring brutality during the colinial age, just to mention three examples, then it is only fair deal that Turkey is expected to face it's dark spots in history as well. Even more so when considering that Armenians are still opressed today, are discriminated, and as a people still are massively handicapped as a result from those atrocities and removals.

The comparison of Rome and the Gauls I refuse to buy for that reason. america has strategic and military interests in Turkey, and that is the only reason the WH tries to fight against that justified classification of the Armenian killings as genocide.

for comparable reasons, in the UN many massmurderings happening that would fulfill the criteria of the anti-genocide convention of the UN from 1948 are refused to be called genocide, becasue the charta makes it obilgatory that the international community has to take appropriate reaction to intervene in genocides taking out. Since many are not willing to engage in a given example of genicide, or have interests they give higher priorities than a genocide happening, they refuse to call a genocide as "genocide".

Which means that all Wetsern nations clearly make a difference between genocides they condemn - and genocides that they accept.

Oh yeah, our moral example is so shining and clear.Has no bearing on todays world other than to remain in the history books. Did we pas a law calling the Nazi concentration camps genocide? Not that I remember, but I can definitly say that we did nothing in Japans occupation of China. These things are way more relevant since the perpetraitors could still well be alive. Screwing with something so far in the past where anyone alive at the time is already dead is just stupid.

-S

[Huskalar]

This is what Turkey is doing with their past today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7040171.stm

[SUBMAN1]

This is what Turkey is doing with their past today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7040171.stm
Turkey is right by the way - it was war. Still is war as seen today. I don't agree with the accusations. Just because they happened to be of a particular ethinicity - so what?

I guess it should be called Genocide for America to target Germans in WWII. We killed millions of them. Not 100,000.

-S

[Skybird]

Screwing with something so far in the past where anyone alive at the time is already dead is just stupid.

Far away past? Germany would not have been integrated into NATO and the European community if it would have tried to defend parts of it's Nazi past, and wouldn't have totally accepted responsibility for the Holocaust. the relations between china and japan are stuill stressed becasue Japan's inability to accept unconditional responsibility for the war crimes and atrocities in China. but turkey, that some in Europe want to see in the EU and that Washington wants to allow US bases on it's soil and flight transfer rights for US fighterplanes should be an exception, forgiven and fogotten?

Again, bush only resists this declaration so bitterly because he wants his fighters being accepted to fly in turkish airspace, and build a logistical chain for Iraq.

And Subman, if your country never thought about considering the processing of human bodies in KZs to be genocide, as you said, - then this is your problem, but not a reasonable argument. It took the US Senate 37 years to ratify the international anti-genocide convention (finally, in 1986).


The Armenian Genocide (Armenian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language): Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ("Hayoc' c'ejaspanut'iwn"), Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language): Ermeni Soykırımı) — also known as the Armenian Holocaust, Great Calamity (Մեծ Եղեռն "Mec Ejer'n" ) or the Armenian Massacre — was the forcible deportation and massacre[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-0) of hundreds of thousands to over 1.5 million Armenians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians) during the government of the Young Turks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Turks) from 1915 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1915) to 1917 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917) in the Ottoman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-1)
It is widely acknowledged to have been one of the first modern, systematic genocides (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide),[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-2)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-IAGS) as many Western sources point to the sheer scale of the death toll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Armenian_casualties) as evidence for a systematic, organized plan to eliminate the Armenians.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-3) The event is also said to be the second-most studied case of genocide.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-nazi) To date twenty-two countries have officially recognized (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_the_Armenian_Genocide) it as genocide. The government of the Republic of Turkey rejects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_Armenian_Genocide) the characterization of the events as genocide.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-BBC_News)

(...)

Planning
In November 1914, the Ottoman Empire entered World War I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I) on the side of the Central Powers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Powers). İsmail Enver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%B0smail_Enver), now the Minister of War, launched a unsuccessful military campaign against Russian forces in the Caucasus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus) in hopes of capturing the city of Baku (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku). His forces were routed at the Battle of Sarikamis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sarikamis), and many more of his men froze to death in the retreat.



Returning to Istanbul, Enver largely blamed the Armenians living in the region for actively siding with the Russians.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-14) By 1914, Ottoman authorities had already begun a propaganda drive to present Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire as a threat to the country's security. An Ottoman naval officer in the War Office described the planning:In order to justify this enormous crime the requisite propaganda material was thoroughly prepared in Istanbul. [It included such statements as] "the Armenians are in league with the enemy. They will launch an uprising in Istanbul, kill off the Ittihadist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_of_Union_and_Progress) leaders and will succeed in opening the straits [of the Dardanelles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanelles)]."[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-15)




On the night of 24 April (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_24) 1915, the Ottoman government rounded up and imprisoned an estimated 250 Armenian intellectuals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_notables_deported_from_the_Ottoman_capita l_in_1915)

Legislation, May 29




Further information: Tehcir Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehcir_Law) In May 1915, Mehmed Talat Pasha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmed_Talat_Pasha) requested that the cabinet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet) and grand vizier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_vizier) legalize the deportations of the Armenians of Anatolia. On 29 May (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_29) 1915 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1915), the CUP Central Committee passed the Temporary Law of Deportation (Tehcir Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehcir_Law)), giving the Ottoman government and military authorization to deport anyone it "sensed" as a threat to national security.[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-17) Several months later, the Temporary Law of Expropriation and Confiscation was passed, stating that all property, including land, livestock, and homes belonging to Armenians, was to be confiscated by the authorities. Ottoman parliamentary representative Ahmed Riza protested the legislation:It is unlawful to designate the Armenian assets as “abandoned goods” for the Armenians, the proprietors, did not abandon their properties voluntarily; they were forcibly, compulsorily removed from their domiciles and exiled. Now the government through its efforts is selling their goods… If we are a constitutional regime functioning in accordance with constitutional law we can’t do this. This is atrocious. Grab my arm, eject me from my village, then sell my goods and properties, such a thing can never be permissible. Neither the conscience of the Ottomans nor the law can allow it.[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-18)




The confiscation of Armenian property and the slaughter of Armenians that ensued upon the law's enactment outraged much of the western world. While the Ottoman Empire's wartime allies offered little protest, a wealth of German and Austrian historical documents has since come to attest to the witnesses' horror at the killings and mass starvation of Armenians.[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-19)[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-20)[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-21) In the United States, the New York Times reported almost daily on the mass murder of the Armenian people, describing the process as "systematic", "authorized" and "organized by the government." Theodore Roosevelt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt) would later characterize this as "the greatest crime of the war."[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-22)

The Special Organization (Teşkilat-ı Mahsusa)

Main articles: Teskilati Mahsusa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teskilati_Mahsusa) and Special Organization (Ottoman Empire) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Organization_%28Ottoman_Empire%29)
While there was an official 'special organization' founded in December 1911 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1911) by the Ottoman government, a second organization that participated in what led to the destruction of the Ottoman Armenian community was founded by the lttihad ve Terraki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lttihad_ve_Terraki).[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-25) This organization adopted its name in 1913 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1913) and functioned like a special forces outfit.[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-26)
Later in 1914, the Ottoman government influenced the direction the special organization was to take by releasing criminals from central prisons to be the central elements of this newly formed special organization.[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-27) According to the Mazhar commissions attached to the tribunal as soon as November 1914, 124 criminals were released from Pimian prison. Many other releases followed; in Ankara a few months later, 49 criminals were released from its central prison.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)] Little by little from the end of 1914 to the beginning of 1915, hundreds, then thousands of prisoners were freed to form the members of this organization. Later, they were charged to escort the convoys of Armenian deportees.[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-28) Vehib, commander of the Ottoman Third Army, called those members of the special organization, the “butchers of the human species.” [35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-29)

Process and camps of deportation

The Armenians were marched out to the Syrian town of Deir ez-Zor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_ez-Zor) and the surrounding desert. A good deal of evidence suggests that the Ottoman government did not provide any facilities or supplies to sustain the Armenians during their deportation, nor when they arrived.[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-StarveNYT) By August 1915, the New York Times reported that "the roads and the Euphrates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphrates) are strewn with corpses of exiles, and those who survive are doomed to certain death. It is a plan to exterminate the whole Armenian people."[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-PerishNYT)



Ottoman troops escorting the Armenians not only allowed others to rob, kill and rape the Armenians, but often participated in these activities themselves.[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-StarveNYT) Deprived of their belongings and marched into the desert, hundreds of thousands of Armenians perished.Naturally, the death rate from starvation and sickness is very high and is increased by the brutal treatment of the authorities, whose bearing toward the exiles as they are being driven back and forth over the desert is not unlike that of slave drivers. With few exceptions no shelter of any kind is provided and the people coming from a cold climate are left under the scorching desert sun without food and water. Temporary relief can only be obtained by the few able to pay officials.[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-StarveNYT)




It is believed that 25 concentration camps existed, major under the command of Şükrü Kaya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9E%C3%BCkr%C3%BC_Kaya), one of the right hands of Talat Pasha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talat_Pasha).[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-Kotek) The majority of the camps were situated near modern Iraqi and Syrian frontiers, and some were only temporary transit camps.[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-Kotek) Others, such as Radjo, Katma, and Azaz, are said to have been used only temporarily, for mass graves; these sites were vacated by Fall 1915.[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-Kotek) Some authors also maintain that the camps Lale, Tefridje, Dipsi, Del-El, and Ra's al-'Ain were built specifically for those who had a life expectancy of a few days.[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-Kotek)
Though nearly all the camps, including the primary sites, were open air, the remainder of the mass killing in minor camps was not limited to direct killings, but also to mass burning,[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-30) poisoning[40] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-31) and drowning.[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-32)

(...)




The Armenian Genocide is often speculated to have influenced Adolf Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler), owing to his various references to the Ottoman killings of Armenians.[72] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-63) The extent of Hitler's knowledge of the Armenian Genocide is unclear, though he did refer to their destruction several times.[73] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-64) The most notable quote attributed to Hitler on the Armenians is excerpted from an August 1939 military conference, prior to the invasion of Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland):I have issued the command -- and I’ll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad -- that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formation in readiness -- for the present only in the East -- with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space [Lebensraum] which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?[74] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-65)




There are numerous accounts of Hitler speaking in regards to the Armenians, with at least two similar versions of the 1939 speech coming from the German High Command archives. In 1931, for example, two years prior to his ascension as Germany's leader, Hitler noted in an interview that "everywhere people are awaiting a new world order. We intend to introduce a great resettlement policy… remember the extermination of the Armenians."[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-66) In 1943, during the height of his attempts to exterminate the Jews in Europe, Hitler demanded of Hungarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary) regent Admiral Miklós Horthy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikl%C3%B3s_Horthy) that he deport the Jews from the country: "Nations which did not get rid of the Jews perished. One of the most famous examples of this was the downfall of a people who were so proud--the Persians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persians), who now lead a pitiful existence as Armenians."[76] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide#_note-67)



more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

[Huskalar]

Turkey is right by the way - it was war. Still is war as seen today. I don't agree with the accusations. Just because they happened to be of a particular ethinicity - so what?

I guess it should be called Genocide for America to target Germans in WWII. We killed millions of them. Not 100,000.

-SI just think that Turkey's reaction is way out of proportion. Like is has been often before when it comes to this subject. I don't know if what happened then should be called genocide, but I certainly do not approve of the way Turkey is trying to rewrite their history on this subject.

[August]

america has strategic and military interests in Turkey, and that is the only reason the WH tries to fight against that justified classification of the Armenian killings as genocide.

I agree Skybird, but on the other hand the only reason the Democrat controlled US Congress is doing this now is to further hamstring Bush.

[bookworm_020]

Most turks admit that it did happen. It's just politicians trying to score brownie points. I believe when the term genocide was created, the Armenians were giving as an example.

The fact is that 40 states of America already recognize it as the Armenian genocide.

[geetrue]

Turkey May Invade Northern Iraq

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aoF8pYxEDFCQ&refer=home

Now oil has risen to it's highest ever to $84 a barrel ...

Just because they think this may result in war for Northern Iraq's Kurd area ...

Doesn't look good for our side to be coming home any time soon if war breaks out up north does it?

[Tchocky]

Ah yes, his name was Johnson, hmm?

Big burly fellow, liked hunting.

[DeepIron]

<RANT MODE ON>
Just once, JUST ONCE for cryin' out loud...:damn:
Can't the US government keep it's meddling and opinions to itself? :damn::damn::damn:

Stupid, stupid, stupid! Why in the world should we even be involved in this? This is not an American affair. :damn:

All this does is further the image that American's are meddling bullies who just have to stick our noses in someone's else business... :down:

We have enough problems of our own without alienating yet another ally... :down:

<RANT MODE OFF>

[bradclark1]

america has strategic and military interests in Turkey, and that is the only reason the WH tries to fight against that justified classification of the Armenian killings as genocide.

I agree Skybird, but on the other hand the only reason the Democrat controlled US Congress is doing this now is to further hamstring Bush.
Yes it would seem so. Pretty damn stupid thing to do right now.:nope:

[Sea Demon]

I agree Skybird, but on the other hand the only reason the Democrat controlled US Congress is doing this now is to further hamstring Bush.
Actually it's alot deeper than that August. The Democrats are purposely trying to cause harm to one of America's allies in the War, to cause a split between us and them. The enemies in the region are being aided and abetted by these Democrats in OUR own Congress. The Democrats are simply trying to harm a U.S. ally in the Iraq war, and cause problems for America in keeping stable allies in the region. This is simply a gutless, and treasonous way of getting America to lose the war. These Democrats will not be happy unless we lose. They are totally seeking for us to lose. The only thing that's new is that this is the first blatant direct support we've seen by the Democrats to support the terrorist insurgency in Iraq. They've done much indirectly to help them out in the past. This sickens me.

[AntEater]

A nice ally who:

- just elected a muslim fundamentalist as president, to compliment a muslim fundamentalist prime minister. The fact that Erdogan and Gül are not rabble-rousers like Ahmadinejad does not mean they're any more tolerant of non muslims than he is.

- who's "western" component is largely based on the model of Mussolini's Italy

- whose majority of population regards the US as hostile and likes to reads books in which heroic turkish secret agents nuke Washington D.C. with a suitcase bomb. Not to mention "Valley of the Wolves"

- where Christians are actively persecuted, antique sites of non muslim origin are deliberately demolished or neglected

- Actively tried and still tries to pursue the goal of a "greater Turkey" in Asia, as well as reestablishing ottoman holds on the Balkans. Western Europe and the US may have forgotten what the Ottoman empire was, but Serbs, Bulgarians, Greeks and Rumanians haven't.

Not to mention the Kurds, who are basically the world's largest people without a nation. Actually a kurdish state in northern Iraq (and southern Turkey) would be a far better ally than Turkey.


Of course there is a pro western Turkey, people who in way of life are more similar to Italy or Greece or Israel than to the islamic world. Those people are pro western (meaning they hate the US only about as much as the average western european :D), but they are raplidly outbred by the islamic part of turkey. Until recently, this small minority dominated politics, the military and the economy. By enforcing democratization and privatization of the economy (Turkey was pretty much a state run economy until recently), the west took away their hold on power. The "Apes" (as one westernized Turk I know calls them) are simply more than the "normal people", so they win elections.
Ironically, a democratic turkey can't be a friend of the US, that is a simply question of math.
If you've got 80% of people who are islamists, want the Ottoman empire back (which basically means subjugating the whole balkans and much of Asia) and hate the US and you have a democracy, you have really a great ally.
The only way Turkey stays pro US is with a military coup, Congress or not.

[bradclark1]

Yes, but for now they are letting us use their space and facilities. That is what this is all about. We are using them plain and simple but they are getting paid for it in various ways. If Turkey pulls away or should I say if we push them away the logistcs for our forces in Iraq are going to be a lot harder. Not impossible, but harder. I'm all for getting them out of Iraq but not provide undue hardship on them.

[Happy Times]

Yes, but for now they are letting us use their space and facilities. That is what this is all about. We are using them plain and simple but they are getting paid for it in various ways. If Turkey pulls away or should I say if we push them away the logistcs for our forces in Iraq are going to be a lot harder. Not impossible, but harder. I'm all for getting them out of Iraq but not provide undue hardship on them.

Is it good to make foreign policy on a short term perpective? The average Turk hates Americans and Europeans.. Some Europeans may dislike somethings in America but they still feel you as relatives. Blood is thicker than water.

[geetrue]

Turkey has been planning this aggression against the Kurds and what they call the PKK, some kind of rebel group, for a long time now.

It wasn't just the US Congress vote about murdering over one million people in 1915 that caused this huge border problem between Turkey and Iraq.

True the timing is suspected politics by the democratic wing of the US Congress, but the Armenians have been trying to pass this resoulution for years.

Take a look at the headlines for just the last few days for an eye opener on tanks, planes, helicopters and men ready to attack.

One article gives us a clue that Turkey wants a buffer zone. This could be their aim to attack and pull back to cause a buffer zone to stop the rebels from setting up a country within their country.

When you look at it like that it's hard not to be on Turkey's side.

Turkey Ponders Iraq Campaign (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hHDG79AIius7McB6xz3lTQFLIdhQD8S7JBFO1)
The Associated Press - Oct 12, 2007
ANKARA, Turkey (AP) — Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Friday that Turkey would not be deterred by the possible consequences of invading Iraq if it ...

Turkey ready to face world criticism over Iraq (http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/NewsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2007-10-12T081837Z_01_GOR229784_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-TURKEY-IRAQ-CRITICISM-COL.XML)
Reuters Canada, Canada - Oct 12, 2007
ISTANBUL (Reuters) - Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said on Friday Ankara was prepared to face up to international criticism if it launched an attack ...



Petraeus Concerned Over Turkish Tension (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gkx-3oYeFwuWKCusr2jrojs98w8wD8S78IF81)
The Associated Press - Oct 11, 2007
BAGHDAD (AP) — The top US commander in Iraq warned Thursday that Turkey's threatened incursion into Kurdish regions in the north of the country could harm ...

Turkey moves closer to a military campaign in Iraq, but still ... (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/10/11/europe/EU-ANL-Turkey-Iraq.php)
International Herald Tribune, France - Oct 11, 2007
AP ISTANBUL, Turkey: Turkey's parliament could approve a cross-border offensive against Kurdish rebels in Iraq as soon as next week, but that doesn't mean a ...

Turkish govt to seek go-ahead for Iraq incursion next week (http://www.africasia.com/services/news/newsitem.php?area=mideast&item=071011115720.l8xqsszx.php)
Africasia, UK - Oct 11, 2007
The Turkish government will formally ask parliament next week to approve an incursion into northern Iraq to crack down on Kurdish rebels taking refuge there ...

Turkey condemns US over Armenian genocide resolution (http://www.guardian.co.uk/turkey/story/0,,2188509,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront)
Guardian Unlimited, UK - Oct 11, 2007
Turkey today condemned a US congressional committee for approving a resolution that recognises the 1915 massacres of Armenians by Ottoman Turks as genocide. ...

Turkish tanks ready to roll into Iraq in (http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article2631279.ece)
Times Online, UK - Oct 10, 2007
Turkey was preparing to send troops and tanks into northern Iraq yesterday as the Government came under intense pressure to avenge the deaths of Turkish ...

Turkey readying military operation against Iraqi Kurds (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2007-10-10-turkey-kurds_N.htm)
USA Today - Oct 10, 2007
ISTANBUL (AP) — A motion calling for a Turkish military incursion against Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq will soon be presented to Parliament, ...

Anti-PKK Campaign (http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&section=0&article=102351&d=11&m=10&y=2007)
Arab News, Saudi Arabia - Oct 10, 2007
TURKEY is rightly furious at Sunday’s killing of 12 soldiers, the highest military death toll in a dozen years. According to reports, Turkish troops ...

Turkey Escalates Offensive Near Border (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hHDG79AIius7McB6xz3lTQFLIdhQD8S6HHPO1)
The Associated Press - Oct 10, 2007
SIRNAK, Turkey (AP) — Turkish warplanes and helicopter gunships attacked suspected positions of Kurdish rebels near Iraq on Wednesday, a possible prelude to ...



W.House cautions Turkey against Iraq incursion (http://www.reuters.com/article/middleeastCrisis/idUSWBT007693)
Reuters - Oct 10, 2007
WASHINGTON, Oct 10 (Reuters) - The White House on Wednesday cautioned Turkey against making a military incursion into northern Iraq after Kurdish rebels ...

Turkey confirms army operation plans for Iraq (http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/international/ticker/detail/Turkey_confirms_army_operation_plans_for_Iraq.html ?siteSect=143&sid=8301127&cKey=1192032717000&ty=ti)
Swissinfo, Switzerland - Oct 10, 2007
By Hidir Goktas ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan confirmed on Wednesday his government was drawing up plans to authorise a military ...

US sends top envoys as Turkey gears up plans for Iraq incursion (http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/239874/US_sends_top_envoys_as_Turkey_gears_up_plans_for_I raq_incursion)
DigitalJournal.com, Canada - 1 hour ago
The United States dispatched two top officials to Ankara on Saturday amid a breakdown in relations between the two NATO allies and growing concern that ...

Turkey resolute to crush PKK (http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=26874&sectionid=351020204)
PRESS TV, Iran - 20 hours ago
Turkish PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan has warned he will not wait for US permission to order Turkish armed forces to fight Kurdish rebels. ...

Tension arises between Turkey, US (http://www.contracostatimes.com/nationandworld/ci_7157583)
Contra Costa Times, CA - Oct 12, 2007
By Molly Moore ISTANBUL, Turkey -- The Turkish government warned Thursday that a congressional committee vote labeling the mass killings of Armenians during ...

Trouble's brewing in Turkey (http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/opinion/story.html?id=a668afb5-7dff-45e4-83f3-344d0871aadf)
Ottawa Citizen, Canada - Oct 12, 2007
Turkey's threat to invade northern Iraq to crush Kurdish guerrillas has serious implications not just for Iraq's stability but also for Turkey's relations ...

Turkey Prepares for Incursions into Iraq (http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=36379)
Independent Media Review Analysis (IMRA), Israel - Oct 11, 2007
rebels. The US is warning against such a move and Iraq has said it would Thursday. It would then be voted upon as early as next week and would give the ...

The United States wants Turkey to stay out of Iraq (http://www.overthelimit.info/world/2007/10/11/the-united-states-wants-turkey-to-stay-out-of-iraq/)
OverTheLimit.info, Canada - Oct 11, 2007
The United States has come out and stated that they oppose Turkey’s attempt to become involved in Iraq by launching a unilateral incursion into Iraq to go ...

Government to seek authorization from parliament for a cross ... (http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=49455)
Journal of Turkish Weekly, Turkey - Oct 11, 2007
The government will send a motion to Parliament next week requesting authorization for a cross-border operation into northern Iraq to deal with a terrorist ...

Turkey steps up measures to fight against PKK (http://www.china.org.cn/english/international/227655.htm)
China Internet Information Center|, China - Oct 10, 2007
In the face of mounting terrorist activities of the outlawed Kurdish Workers' Party (PKK) and growing tension with the US and Iraq, Turkish government and ...

Turkish PM Erdogan confirms Iraq plan (http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/90854/6280793.html)
People's Daily Online, China - Oct 10, 2007
Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan confirmed yesterday his government was drawing up plans to authorize a military incursion into northern Iraq to crush ...

Turkish military pounds Kurdish rebel camps (http://www.gulfnews.com/region/Iraq/10159540.html)
Gulf News, United Arab Emirates - Oct 10, 2007
AP Sirnak, Turkey: Turkish troops pounded suspected Kurdish rebel camps in northern Iraq with artillery fire, a newspaper reported yesterday, ...

Turkish warplanes attack Kurd rebel posts in Iraq (http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.php?newsid=NTg3NzY5Njcx)
Kuwait Times, Kuwait - Oct 10, 2007
SIRNAK, Turkey: Turkish warplanes and helicopter gunships attacked the suspected positions of Kurdish rebels near Iraq yesterday and police detained 20 ...

Turkey: Looking to Formalize a Buffer Zone? (http://www.stratfor.com/products/premium/read_article.php?id=296614)
Stratfor (subscription) - Oct 10, 2007
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said before heading into parliament Oct. 10 that his government is busily preparing for a military incursion ...

EU stresses need for Iraq’s unity, as Turkey threatens incursion (http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/theworld/2007/October/theworld_October338.xml&section=theworld&col=)
Khaleej Times, United Arab Emirates - Oct 10, 2007
BRUSSELS - The European Commission Wednesday underscored the need to maintain Iraq’s sovereignty and integrity following Turkish threats of a border ...

[bradclark1]

Is it good to make foreign policy on a short term perpective? The average Turk hates Americans and Europeans.. Some Europeans may dislike somethings in America but they still feel you as relatives. Blood is thicker than water.
It's not good but it serves the purpose. The Turks wouldn't let us use their facilities until they were sure Saddam was finished, then they let us bribe them. They aren't doing this for nothing. Iraq calls for strange bedfellows as does Afghanistan with Pakistan. We've caused a real cluster ******* in the region and the U.S. does not need to make it worse for ourselves by playing silly political games at the moment. To me this is a serious Democratic (and a few Republicans) political blunder. This is going to bite them back and hopefully take some leadership casualties because we don't need spiteful people in those positions.

[AntEater]

Strange bedfellows indeed.
The Kurds in northern Iraq are pretty much the only group in Iraq not trying to murder americans on a daily basis.
They want independence, granted, but killing americans or waging jihad is not on their political agenda.
Now the US is supposed to help Turkey invade the only "safe haven" the US has in Iraq, thereby destroying (among other things) the only safe oil production facilities in the country, the only R&R area in theater and other things.
We're not talking commando raids here (these happen all the time), but a large scale military invasion with all the boy's toys like tanks and such.

Given the US presence there it wouldnt suprise me if some americans would actually get killed in this operation, as the turkish military isnt exactly renowned for neither surgical precision or subtleness of approach.
And what will US forces do if faced with the attrocities which are bound to happen, given the racial hatred and the conscript nature of the turkish army.
Will US forces stand by and watch when Turks cause a massacre?
If Saddam massacres Kurds = bad, if Turkey does = good?
Score another big PR point for Bush if that happens.
Ok, the other option, engaging a NATO ally in combat isnt really a great one either.

[bradclark1]

Strange bedfellows indeed.
Yes. This is about the genocide that has been on the table since whenever and hasn't passed a vote until right now when it would have the worst impact. It's about using Turkey who we have never gotten along with politically as a key logistics point. Until the Turks actually invade in force they are sabre rattling because I'd guess that the U.S. is trying to give them incentives not to cross the border. It's about using and being used. It's about the trade offs. If they weren't being used as a logistics center we'd probably have a force on the border already sabre rattling right back.
So yes 'strange bedfellows'.

[TteFAboB]

The genocide is rubbed in their face, an ******* leaves the country and everybody can tell Pelosi is being an opportunist.

I can't see anything wrong in any of this.

[The Avon Lady]

Turkey's tryst (http://www.newsmax.com/timmerman/turkey_iran_/2007/10/15/40957.html).

[Sea Demon]

Sabotage in wartime......

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/10/sabotage_in_wartime.html

[Skybird]

Turkey's tryst (http://www.newsmax.com/timmerman/turkey_iran_/2007/10/15/40957.html).

"The goal of the Iranians is to drive us from the border area,” rebel leader Biryar Gabar told Newsmax. “They want to turn this area into a no-man’s land, so they can use it to smuggle weapons and Islamist guerillas into Iraq to fight the Americans.” He called the Iran-Turkey entente “an anti-American alliance,” not just an anti-Kurdish agreement, and said that it resulted from deliberate decisions from the ruling Islamist AKP party of Prime Minister Erdogan to transform Turkey into an increasingly Islamist state."

How could this be, since Turkey tries so hard to rally with the Europeans to become member of the EU? :hmm: dear Britain, dear america - you better start to finally think twice before continuing to demand that turkey should become an EU member. they would be the economically weakest ( translates into: the most expensive), but demographically strongest EU member, with more than enough influence (and tools of intimidation, and deception) to turn the whole EU against America completely.

When will people finally start to wake up? When will they wake up? When...?

BTW, turkish shelling in Northern Iraq is nothing new, but a routine since the autumn of 2003, and even before. Also, in the east of turkey, PKK groups and the turkish military clash with regularity. It's just that this is in a too hidden part fo the world, maybe, or on a scale where the world press - and the turkish press - does not take note. I know confirmation for this war constantly going on since Öcalan was arrested from first hand sources. there never has been a seize-fire in place, as the world press often has stated: it's a lie.

Needless to say this lie sounds nice and sweet in the EU's ears.

[Happy Times]

Turkey's tryst (http://www.newsmax.com/timmerman/turkey_iran_/2007/10/15/40957.html).

"The goal of the Iranians is to drive us from the border area,” rebel leader Biryar Gabar told Newsmax. “They want to turn this area into a no-man’s land, so they can use it to smuggle weapons and Islamist guerillas into Iraq to fight the Americans.” He called the Iran-Turkey entente “an anti-American alliance,” not just an anti-Kurdish agreement, and said that it resulted from deliberate decisions from the ruling Islamist AKP party of Prime Minister Erdogan to transform Turkey into an increasingly Islamist state."

How could this be, since Turkey tries so hard to rally with the Europeans to become member of the EU? :hmm: dear Britain, dear america - you better start to finally think twice before continuing to demand that turkey should become an EU member. they would be the economically weakest ( translates into: the most expensive), but demographically strongest EU member, with more than enough influence (and tools of intimidation, and deception) to turn the whole EU against America completely.

When will people finally start to wake up? When will they wake up? When...?

BTW, turkish shelling in Northern Iraq is nothing new, but a routine since the autumn of 2003, and even before. Also, in the east of turkey, PKK groups and the turkish military clash with regularity. It's just that this is in a too hidden part fo the world, maybe, or on a scale where the world press - and the turkish press - does not take note. I know confirmation for this war constantly going on since Öcalan was arrested from first hand sources. there never has been a seize-fire in place, as the world press often has stated: it's a lie.

Needless to say this lie sounds nice and sweet in the EU's ears.

x2 What you said. And i find it unbeliviable that someone would want EU having borders with Iran, Iraq and Syria..:doh: They have to be insane or wish evil upon Europe.

[The Avon Lady]

They have to be insane
That would be the European politicians.
or wish evil upon Europe.
That would be the Islamic countries.