Jap Merchant AI Gunnery

[ridgewayranger]

Hi All,
I've been shocked and surprised by the Jap Merchant Ship gunnery. Even after firing 100 rounds into a ship the guns are still firing very accurately. They open fire with this same accuracy at ridiculously long range and have cost me 3 commands so far. As the superstructure slides below the water they are still firing!
Question 1. Why cannot these guns be put out of action?
2. Can the accuracy be reduced to a more realistic level?
3. Can the acquisition range be reduced?
On another subject why, when I start a fire, does it appear to burn in square boxes?
RR.

[cdrsubron7]

Hi All,
I've been shocked and surprised by the Jap Merchant Ship gunnery. Even after firing 100 rounds into a ship the guns are still firing very accurately. They open fire with this same accuracy at ridiculously long range and have cost me 3 commands so far. As the superstructure slides below the water they are still firing!
Question 1. Why cannot these guns be put out of action?
2. Can the accuracy be reduced to a more realistic level?
3. Can the acquisition range be reduced?
On another subject why, when I start a fire, does it appear to burn in square boxes?
RR.


Have to agree with you on the accuracy on the gunners on the Japanese merchants.


As for the problem with the fire burning like square box check out the following page of the same quaestion I asked the other day. You'll find a fix here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=652483&postcount=283).



(http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=122408&page=39)

[Wilcke]

Just to add to the knowledge base....can the sub guns destroy enemy gun mounts on merchant type vessels (simple mounts no shields)...of course if one were to engage such targets on the surface....I never would...right...no...well...maybe....occasionally. .LOL.

Wilcke

[ridgewayranger]

Thanks, cdrsubron7, for your reply, but I'm not sure to what you are referring. Have tried searching but to no avail.
RR

[Steeltrap]

Fact is that USA sub commanders would not engage armed Jap merchant ships. The Japs were very good gunners generally and, with a poor/non-existant convoy system, merchants did expect to defend themselves. What's more, a single hit from any decent gun (3" or greater) had a very real chance of leaving the sub crippled.

In other words, you shouldn't be exchanging gunfire with ANY Jap ship, be it Navy or merchant.

[joegrundman]

Think about what happened to the USS Grunion. Although there are various questions still unanswered about it, the certainties are that she was hit by a single shell from a japanese merchant while submerged and was never seen again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Grunion

[Stew U-582]

As far as destroying the merchants guns leovampire gave me some values to
change in the zone file that makes it easier/ possible to destroy the guns on merchants. Sorry cant remember what i changed but if you search merchant guns
you should find a list of posts about fixing / changing this with instructions.

Stu

[ridgewayranger]

Hi,
The comments about Jap merchant ship gunnery need putting into perspective. They would be firing over open sights with very primitive fire control if any, and one or maybe two guns firing independently.
Compare this with German naval gunnery. At the River Plate battle, Graf Spee hit with one out of every 40 rounds fired from main armament. No hits at all from secondary after firing over 700 rounds. The Germans had the best optical fire control in the world.
The British squadron had an overall percentage of 2.7 hits, much the same as their opponent, so why do we suggest that Jap merchant ships would be so much better.
My other point was why can we not take out the guns, no matter how often we hit them? I actually laid alongside and raked the gun positions with everything I had, to no avail.
I have changed them so that they cannot fire at such a long range. Maybe that will help.
My problem with 'burning in squares' was cured with the newfir_add.dds file. Thanks to CDRSUBRON7.
RR

[captiandon]

It can be done and I have blown there guns off there decks. Within a few shots mind you but I normaly use the twin 20s to knock out gun crews. I have even killed deck crew ingame using the 20s

[peterloo]

I feel that the gunnery of the Japanese merchants are overdosed

I usually attack in periscope depth, and after firing 2 or 3 torpedoes, I surface and try to sink it by my 4 inch gun to reduce its agony of the burning ship

However, all in a sudden, the Japanese pulls out its gun, and try to strike me with it

If I let my man (AI) fire it, the hitting rate is like 40%

If the enemy (AI) fires at me, without maneuvering, hitting rate is like 60%

I feel that the hitpoint of the desk gun should be made to very small, in the way that they can be blown up after a torpedo hit, or a fire.

Imagine that, will a Japanese hold the ammo when the ship is burning or flooding? Definitely no! They don't want the ammo cook off on their hands, neither do they want the ship sink. Thus, they would either be leaving or patching holes.

Furthermore, even if they fires, firing from a listed ship should result in a huge inaccuracy (compounded by my 4 inch HE shells sweeping the bridge, they should be jump into the lifeboat instead of staying on the bridge, firing that gun)

So, I believe that this is very abnormal, and should be tuned down.

[peterloo]

p.s. we can destroy the gun mount, but seems that the gun has a huge HP, it is at least as strong as the hull for a curiser.

While there is a shield, meaning that the gun can substain some fire before getting destroyed, I believe that the shock induced, the heat energy released by explosive, compounded by energy radiating from the burning hell below the gun in the cargos, make the crews unable to touch the gun, fearing the glowing gun will cause a severe burn.

[Steeltrap]

Peterloo, you're pretty much spot on. The guns DO fire even while the ship sinks/burns. Also, the shield is largely for weather and shell splinter protection. No way will a direct hit not destroy the gun (or at least the crew). I totally agree the gunnery is over the top.

My initial response was to indicate that US subs didn't use their guns all that often. A torp hit (or two) was enough to ensure a sinking. Tang used hers to fire on an atoll against enemy gun positions while racing to rescue downed aircrews, but otherwise not unless the target was too small to warrant a torp and had no significant guns of its own.

TM seemed to do some work on toning down merchant gunnery.

Cheers

[Powerthighs]

Fact is that USA sub commanders would not engage armed Jap merchant ships. The Japs were very good gunners generally and, with a poor/non-existant convoy system, merchants did expect to defend themselves. What's more, a single hit from any decent gun (3" or greater) had a very real chance of leaving the sub crippled.

In other words, you shouldn't be exchanging gunfire with ANY Jap ship, be it Navy or merchant.


That is actually not absolutely true. I am in the middle or reading Silent Victory, and there are many examples of commanders using their deck guns against ships of various sizes, including some who were armed and shooting back.

[jdkbph]

That is actually not absolutely true. I am in the middle or reading Silent Victory, and there are many examples of commanders using their deck guns against ships of various sizes, including some who were armed and shooting back.


By choice?

JD

[Captain Vlad]

I disabled the guns on a couple of ships the last patrol I played, but I haven't patched to 1.3 yet. Did the difficulty of taking out the enemy's armament increase with the patches?

[stedz]

iv triad to blow the guns of but havent ben abel to but i can blast a destroyer to bits with the 4in gun and win agans it without a singal hit. id have thought we should be abel to destroy merchant guns but not the destroyer ones.

[Powerthighs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerthighs
That is actually not absolutely true. I am in the middle or reading Silent Victory, and there are many examples of commanders using their deck guns against ships of various sizes, including some who were armed and shooting back.



By choice?

JD


Here's one example from page 459:

"North of Marcus Island, Wylie found a large (600-ton) patrol craft and rashly ordered another battle surface. The patrol craft fought back fiercely, spraying Scorpion with machine-gun fire. 'We didn't do too well with our gun,' Schratz said later. 'Our aim was poor and we had a bad lot of ammo.' Reggie Raymond, manning a Browning automatic rifle on the bridge, was killed by enemy gunfire and Schratz and three of the gunners were wounded."

[Captain Vlad]

In William Ruhe's My War in the Boats, the author describes the USS Cavalla engaging a depth charge laden patrol ship on the surface. They were observing rounds hitting the target but not exploding and thought they'd gotten a bunch of dud ammo when someone noticed that a sailor, early in the 'ammo chain' was arming the rounds...they had a thing you had to turn to make them 'live', and the guy right before the gun had the tool to do so. The sailor, seeing with uninformed horror that nonfunctional rounds were being passed up to the gun, began turning the arming thingee with his pocket knife.

The problem was discovered and fixed, according to the author, about when the patrol boat was getting into a good return fire position. One or two rounds, and the depth-charges on the PC exploded.

[tater]

One of the glaring problems with SH4 and surface actions is that the deck crew is invulnerable to even 20mm/25mm fire. If it were rtreated reaclistically, gun actions would be a lot more dicey. Upping the deck gun capability of them is somewhat of a balance.

While some PCs and small merchants were engaged with gunfire, the reality is almost no ships over 1000 tons were sunk with submarine deck guns, even in combo attacks with torpedoes (ie; US subs didn't seem to finish anything off with the deck gun other than very very rarely).

tater