US and Mexican flag deja 'vu...

[DeepIron]

Don't mess with a vet... (yeah, there's a 30 second commercial first..)

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/10/03/krnv.mex.flag.flap.krnv

[SUBMAN1]

Don't mess with a vet... (yeah, there's a 30 second commercial first..)

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/10/03/krnv.mex.flag.flap.krnv
Good for him. At least some patriotic people left in this world. We need that.

-S

[RedMenace]

SUBMAN1, it's nationilstic sheep like you who started both World Wars.:shifty:

[Onkel Neal]

...and finishes them :up:

[DeepIron]

...it's nationilstic sheep like you who started both World Wars...
So would that make him a nationalistic German, Japanese or Italian? LOL... I don't recall the US "starting" either of the World Wars... :roll:

I DO remember however, the US FINISHING them... :up: (Neal beat me to it... )

[RedMenace]

...and finishes them :up:

Yeah, lets just forget the tens of millions of people who have to die in the process.:nope:

[DeepIron]

Yeah, lets just forget the tens of millions of people who have to die in the process.
Sure rates right up there with the death toll from the Bubonic Plague, or volcanic eruptions, or tsunamis, or stavation because of drought, or mass genocidal killings from crazy dictators...

So what exactly is your point RM? :shifty:

[Sailor Steve]

Subman1 may indeed be nationalistic, possibly too much so, and I disagree with him a good deal of the time; but one word I don't think would ever properly describe him is SHEEP.:rotfl:

If you think he's blindly following someone, that's fine, but accusatory and challenging language doesn't usually help people to see other's arguments. Maybe a valid discussion is in order.

[bradclark1]

SUBMAN1, it's nationilstic sheep like you who started both World Wars.:shifty:
I would suggest you read a history book or two.:lol:

[RedMenace]

Huh? I never accused the Americans of starting either world war. I'm accusing nationilistic sentiments as a whole. It's people's idiotic love for symbols like flags and uniforms that fuels wars and death and violence and tension.

Any idiot can see that.

EDIT: Excellent, the maturity of the administration here really shines off.

[RedMenace]

Also, I find it hilarious that you are rooting for a man who should be charged with the destruction of personal property, and theft.

[DeepIron]

Wow... for a guy who is obviously against war and tension (but not very smart concerning world history), et al... it's amazing that you're sporting a DEFCON image in your sig... :hmm:

DEFCONs are matched to the situations of military severity. You know, war, tension, potential violence, overt demostrations of nationalism and patriotism... :roll:

The sheep know this, even the idiotic ones... :shifty:

[bradclark1]

Also, I find it hilarious that you are rooting for a man who should be charged with the destruction of personal property, and theft.
We need more criminals just like him.

[fatty]

Wow... for a guy who is obviously against war and tension (but not very smart concerning world history), et al...

Are you arguing against his point that nationalism led to the start of two world wars?

it's amazing that you're sporting a DEFCON image in your sig... :hmm:

DEFCONs are matched to the situations of military severity. You know, war, tension, potential violence, overt demostrations of nationalism and patriotism... :roll:

Any idiot can see that... :roll:

It's a video game. Any idiot can see that. ;)

[RedMenace]

Also, I find it hilarious that you are rooting for a man who should be charged with the destruction of personal property, and theft. We need more criminals just like him.

For a person who believes that we should be able to shoot people who steal our property, I find this a very bold statement from you.

[waste gate]

So the word idiot has been used three times to address other members. Trouble here!

This is comming from a person who was placed in the brig for thirty days for 'trolling'.

[RedMenace]

So the word idiot has been used three times to address other members. Trouble here!
I actually havn't seen anyone call anyone an idiot here.

[DeepIron]

Yes, I know what DEFCON the Game is thank you.

You complain about tension, violence and war, yet you take obvious pleasure in a game which the website proudly claims as "The Worlds First Genocide 'em up"...

The game has nothing to do with nationalism, patriotism, and everything to do with the effects of them.
No the "game" is all about lobbing huge quantities of fissonable, nuclear material at each other...

I actually havn't seen anyone call anyone an idiot here. Any idiot can see that.
Ho hum... forum troll at work...

[RedMenace]

Yes, I know what DEFCON the Game is thank you.

You're a strange person... You complain about tension, violence and war, yet you take obvious pleasure in a game which the website proudly claims as "The Worlds First Genocide 'em up"...

The game has nothing to do with nationalism, patriotism, and everything to do with the effects of them.
No the "game" is all about lobbing huge quantities of fissonable, nuclear material at each other...

Oh yes, I'm an awful hypocritical person because I play video-games. Got me! :roll:

[waste gate]

So the word idiot has been used three times to address other members. Trouble here!
I actually havn't seen anyone call anyone an idiot here.

Huh? I never accused the Americans of starting either world war. I'm accusing nationilistic sentiments as a whole. It's people's idiotic love for symbols like flags and uniforms that fuels wars and death and violence and tension.

Any idiot can see that.

EDIT: Excellent, the maturity of the administration here really shines off.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepIron
Wow... for a guy who is obviously against war and tension (but not very smart concerning world history), et al...


Are you arguing against his point that nationalism led to the start of two world wars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepIron
it's amazing that you're sporting a DEFCON image in your sig... :hmm:

DEFCONs are matched to the situations of military severity. You know, war, tension, potential violence, overt demostrations of nationalism and patriotism... :roll:

Any idiot can see that... :roll:


It's a video game. Any idiot can see that. ;)


I guess I miss counted using my 'find on page function', I apologize. The word has only been used by one person.

[RedMenace]

Heh, looks like you miscounted again, waste gate. Three people used the word idiot, although DeepIron edited his post to make himself sound like he has the moral highground.

Also, how I hate to play semantics but how I must, to say "any idiot can see that" is an expression of obviousness, not insult, as "idiot" is not directed at anyone.

Any idiot can see that. :p

[DeepIron]

although DeepIron edited his post to make himself sound like he has the moral highground. Yep... it was easy after seeing how low you took it...

Oh yes, I'm an awful hypocritical person...
Nope just another forum troll... :roll:

Bye troll...:shifty:

[waste gate]

Heh, looks like you miscounted again, waste gate. Three people used the word idiot, although DeepIron edited his post to make himself sound like he has the moral highground.

OK so my original count of three was correct. How many times did you use the word toward other members?

[RedMenace]

Troll? The nationilistic patriotic lovers of flags was the topic, and somehow me bringing up that such jingoism is dangerous is trolling?


OK so my original count of three was correct. How many times did you use the word toward other members?

Zero.

[waste gate]

Huh? I never accused the Americans of starting either world war. I'm accusing nationilistic sentiments as a whole. It's people's idiotic love for symbols like flags and uniforms that fuels wars and death and violence and tension.

Any idiot can see that.

EDIT: Excellent, the maturity of the administration here really shines off.

Here is one.

I believe in 'people's idiotic love for symbols like flags and uniforms'. So by extention you called at least myself an idiot.

I will accept an apology.

[RedMenace]

Jesus christ, I can't believe I'm seriously dissecting my words here.

I called your obsession idiotic then, not you. Calm down.

[DeepIron]

@Waste gate... don't spend anymore time on this guy. We're playing his silly little game... Words in this guys lexicon include idiotic, stupid, and retarded, read his past posts. He's just a troll...

[RedMenace]

@Waste gate... don't spend anymore time on this guy. We're playing his silly little game... Words in this guys lexicon include idiotic, stupid, and retarded, read his past posts. He's just a troll...

Hmmm, considering you're the first person to fully derail this thread by bringing up the video-games I play, I wouldn't be so quick to call anyone a "troll."

[antikristuseke]

Deepiron and Waste gate, cut the crap and stop reading more into his words that what was actualy said. Though yes his wording could ahve been nicer no personal attacks were made so get off your high horse here. Anyway the point he made was that overly natinalistic wars led to the start of both world wars. So far you have only goten as far as to misread that as him saying that the US started both world wars, which he didnt. If you are not going to at least argue with his point or jsut pointing out that his wording could have been better, stop the bull****ing.

[DeepIron]

SUBMAN1, it's nationilstic sheep like you who started both World Wars..
Sounds pretty explicit to me... it's the "like you" part... the words that come after "nationalistic sheep"... So "cut the cr*p yourself, It's more than obvious what the intention was along with the references to "idiot"...

Amazingly, at least three other posters read that sentence the same way...

If you are not going to at least argue with his point...
What point? He made no point.. He did make some vacuous noises about nationalism but failed to substantiate any of it...

BTW, don't EVEN presume to tell me or anyone else how to read a post, dude... :-?

[waste gate]

Deepiron and Waste gate, cut the crap and stop reading more into his words that what was actualy said. Though yes his wording could ahve been nicer no personal attacks were made so get off your high horse here. Anyway the point he made was that overly natinalistic wars led to the start of both world wars. So far you have only goten as far as to misread that as him saying that the US started both world wars, which he didnt. If you are not going to at least argue with his point or jsut pointing out that his wording could have been better, stop the bull****ing.

I certainly did get beyond the US starting wars. I know that wasn't the truth so that was an easy one. My problem came from the implication that anyone who has a national feeling was an idiot and airing that on the public forum. I have since explained my stance via a PM. I have zero problem with people expressing their opinion, and I think RM understands that.

Cheers
wg

[antikristuseke]

First of all, im not your dude.
Secondly he did make a point, the point was that nationalistic sheep have started both world wars to which you replied to with

So would that make him a nationalistic German, Japanese or Italian? LOL... I don't recall the US "starting" either of the World Wars...

I DO remember however, the US FINISHING them... (Neal beat me to it... )
Nowhere in RedMenaces post do i see a refrence to the US starting both world wars.
Though here i have to admit that i was a bit wrong with my first post in the thread, the "like you" comment is indeed a personal attack. Though then again Subman1 does come off as overly natinalistic at times, I personaly wouldnt call him a sheep just yet, havent been arround here long ennough to have developed an opinion like that yet.

Any arguments against the point RedMenace made?

EDIT: As to telling people how to read a post, I will keep doing so if really obvious posts are read wrong even after the OP has explained what he ment.


I certainly did get beyond the US starting wars. I know that wasn't the truth so that was an easy one. My problem came from the implication that anyone who has a national feeling was an idiot and airing that on the public forum. I have since explained my stance via a PM. I have zero problem with people expressing their opinion, and I think RM understands that.

Cheers
wg
Fair ennough, there aparently was some misunderstanding on my part aswell in this case.

[baggygreen]

I say good on him.

I also say that the world doesnt need to worry about American nationalism starting any wars in the next 10 years.... From watching policies etc, whoever gets president will be the complete opposite, I have little doubt. they'[ll run from any conflict which may arise!

[DeepIron]

AK, I know you're not "MY" dude... It's a slang term meaning "guy", "man, "fellow"... Is there some other interpretation of the word "dude" in Estland that somehow creates a possessive? If there is, please tell me and I'll apologize for my incorrectness.

So let's look at the sentence " SUBMAN1, it's nationilstic sheep like you who started both World Wars.."

Ok, it's rude, I think we both agree on that. Now "SUBMAN1, it's nationalistic sheep "like you"... used as a prepostion the word "like" denotes a direct comparison between two items. SUBMAN1 is an American, ergo: Americans like SUBMAN1 started both World Wars.

However, if RedMenace had been speaking metaphorically, AND not used the negative figurative comment "nationalistic sheep" to proceed "like you", this would not have been the case and the sentence could have been interpreted differently.

I will keep doing so if really obvious posts are read wrong even after the OP has explained what he ment. Interesting thing about interpretations... your truth is my truth? I don't necessarily think so. Personally, I do think it's rude to forcibly impose one's interpretation on another... :shifty:

[waste gate]

I say good on him.

I also say that the world doesnt need to worry about American nationalism starting any wars in the next 10 years.... From watching policies etc, whoever gets president will be the complete opposite, I have little doubt. they'[ll run from any conflict which may arise!

Much like Rwanda, Smolia. More like the way the Europeans delt with Bosnia, which continues.

[RedMenace]

Personally, I do think it's rude to forcibly impose one's interpretation on another... :shifty:
Really? I think it's rude to force an interpretation on MY words after I had already clearly explained to you what I meant.:rolleyes:

And yet you CONTINUE to dissect my words to find some meaning in them that doesn't exist. I never said Americans started a world war. I only said nationilist sheep did. Don't try to pull anything else out from my words because there isn't anything.

[antikristuseke]

AK, I know you're not "MY" dude... It's a slang term meaning "guy", "man, "fellow"... Is there some other interpretation of the word "dude" in Estland that somehow creates a possessive? If there is, please tell me and I'll apologize for my incorrectness.I didnt mean that as it ment possessive, i took it as a term that implies some familiarity between us, there isnt any.

So let's look at the sentence "SUBMAN1, it's nationilstic sheep like you who started both World Wars.."

Ok, it's rude, I think we both agree on that. Now "SUBMAN1, it's nationalistic sheep "like you"... used as a prepostion the word "like" denotes a direct comparison between two items. SUBMAN1 is an American, ergo: Americans like SUBMAN1 started both World Wars.yes there was a direct comparison, SUBMAN1 was compared to nationalistic sheep who started both world wars. To read into his post "Americans like SUBMAN1 started both World Wars." would imply that RedMenace is an idiot who doesnt know history but since he has made no posts to demnostrate this why would you assume it? Hell, he even made it clear a few posts later what he ment.

However, if RedMenace had been speaking which he was metaphorically, AND not used the negative figurative comment "nationalistic sheep" to proceed "like you", this would not have been the case and the sentence could have been interpreted differently.

I will keep doing so if really obvious posts are read wrong even after the OP has explained what he ment. Interesting thing about interpretations... your truth is my truth? I don't necessarily think so. Personally, I do think it's rude to forcibly impose one's interpretation on another... :shifty:

[DeepIron]

AK, I use the word "dude" as a colloquialism in my everyday speech... no familiarity intended...

[edited for content] bye... :damn:

[antikristuseke]

Let me get this straight. You refuse to admit that you misunderstood him, even after he has explained it twice and would rather concider him ignorant of history than to admit a misunderstanding?

EDIT: was a relevant question before the post above was edited.

[baggygreen]

I say good on him.

I also say that the world doesnt need to worry about American nationalism starting any wars in the next 10 years.... From watching policies etc, whoever gets president will be the complete opposite, I have little doubt. they'[ll run from any conflict which may arise!
Much like Rwanda, Smolia. More like the way the Europeans delt with Bosnia, which continues.Very much like it.:nope:

[DeepIron]

Look AK, I don't care how much RM tries to justify his choice of words.. As soon as he started using the word "idiot", that was it for me... Semantics not withstanding, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to garner the meaning when taken in the context of his other posts.

Sailor Steve admonished him with this: "but accusatory and challenging language doesn't usually help people to see other's arguments...". And rightly so. For Steve's efforts he got this response from RM: " EDIT: Excellent, the maturity of the administration here really shines off." Derogatory would sum it up...

You read the "nationalistic sheep like you" your way, I read it mine. When I read it in the context of the original post, BEFORE the "explanation", it sounds like a personal attack to me. Evidently a few others also read it the same way I did...

Are we done now?

[RedMenace]

For Steve's efforts he got this response from RM: " EDIT: Excellent, the maturity of the administration here really shines off." Derogatory would sum it up...



Heh, nope. I added that comment because someone ended up changing my avatar and subtitle to something that would be considered extremely insulting to most cases.

[antikristuseke]

Are we done now?

Im going to give it one last try. Im not protecting his choise of words, i allready said it could have been better. But he has explained what he ment by his choise of words so how can you interpret it in any other way than he has stated that he ment?
Anyway this thing has been a misunderstanding all im looking for is you to admit that. You dont need to justify how you understood it at first or why you took it in such a way.

[waste gate]

For Steve's efforts he got this response from RM: " EDIT: Excellent, the maturity of the administration here really shines off." Derogatory would sum it up...



Heh, nope. I added that comment because someone ended up changing my avatar and subtitle to something that would be considered extremely insulting to most cases.

If your talking about the Bangkok nite, we all either have or will get it around 179 posts. FYI.

wg

[RedMenace]

If your talking about the Bangkok nite, we all either have or will get it around 179 posts. FYI.


Oh really? Hah. I guess the circumstances involved made me jump to conclusions. Sorry to Neal about that. >_<

[jumpy]

lol if ever there was a thread that hinted at a male menstrual cycle then this must be it :rotfl:
It started out fairly straightforward then went down hill ever so quickly; like me responding to my better half's question of 'do I look fat in this?' at the wrong time of the month. Invective guaranteed!

Iirc there are plenty of folk here who have made accusatory statements that are much more probing than the one initially from RM.

But that's what nationalism is all about right? Just that the misunderstandings and 'bias' (for want of a better word) here at subsim leads to a little bickering in forum topics, out there in the big wide world of nations and national interests we go to war and sometimes kill each other. :hmm:

[fatty]

AK, I know you're not "MY" dude... It's a slang term meaning "guy", "man, "fellow"... Is there some other interpretation of the word "dude" in Estland that somehow creates a possessive? If there is, please tell me and I'll apologize for my incorrectness.

So let's look at the sentence " SUBMAN1, it's nationilstic sheep like you who started both World Wars.."

Ok, it's rude, I think we both agree on that. Now "SUBMAN1, it's nationalistic sheep "like you"... used as a prepostion the word "like" denotes a direct comparison between two items. SUBMAN1 is an American, ergo: Americans like SUBMAN1 started both World Wars.

However, if RedMenace had been speaking metaphorically, AND not used the negative figurative comment "nationalistic sheep" to proceed "like you", this would not have been the case and the sentence could have been interpreted differently.


There is a disconnect somewhere in here...

SUBMAN1 is a nationalistic sheep.
SUBMAN1 is an American.
Nationalistic sheep started world wars.
Therefore, all Americans are nationalistic sheep and start world wars.????

[SUBMAN1]

http://www.travelcitydirect.com/tickets/bb/img/smilies/popcorn.gif

Anyone else want some popcorn? This is entertaining! :D



Oh - I almost forgot - Bahhh! http://www.fivesign.com/images/icons/Feed-My-Sheep.gif


-S

[HunterICX]

http://www.travelcitydirect.com/tickets/bb/img/smilies/popcorn.gif

Anyone else want some popcorn? This is entertaining! :D



Oh - I almost forgot - Bahhh! http://www.fivesign.com/images/icons/Feed-My-Sheep.gif


-S

No thanks
I already opened my baggy of
http://www.waissels.com/snacks/images/mister_corn.gif

and took an

http://www.cantrell.ie/pics/7up-bottle.jpg

but , like you I,m having fun watching this :cool:

[antikristuseke]

http://www.travelcitydirect.com/tickets/bb/img/smilies/popcorn.gif

Anyone else want some popcorn? This is entertaining! :D



Oh - I almost forgot - Bahhh! http://www.fivesign.com/images/icons/Feed-My-Sheep.gif


-S

Heh, good to see that you still have a sense of humour :yep:

[DeepIron]

http://www.northrim.net/jhouck/images/sheep_curious_small.JPG

What???

Ok, "we should not assert that for which we do not have proof" is all I'm gonna give up...

[SUBMAN1]

http://www.northrim.net/jhouck/images/sheep_curious_small.JPG

What???


Hahahaha! :rotfl: :rotfl: :D :up:

-S http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

[Onkel Neal]

If your talking about the Bangkok nite, we all either have or will get it around 179 posts. FYI.


Oh really? Hah. I guess the circumstances involved made me jump to conclusions. Sorry to Neal about that. >_<

Ha ha, what bad timing :lol: No problem, I would have been ticked off too, if that avatar had hit me in the middle of a contentious debate :o Like WG said, though, it's a post count surprise, I didn't do it. Just watch the next guy with 178 or so posts.... always a big shock, and then it's gone.

Seriously, though. Sure, nationalism has historically been a factor in wars, but I don't think Subman rates anywhere on the fanatic scale to be called a sheep. Flags are symbols of beliefs and ideas, and are regulated by custom and courtesy. Hoisting a foreign flag above the American flag is very rude. It's deliberately provacative. It makes a statement to the people in this country. To me it says, you are beneath us. In your own land. You may think that is okay, but you can't be surprised if it angers most other Americans.

Yeah, I would consider that a problem. It won't start a nationalistic sheep stampede or a war, but I don't blame the guy who brought it down.

[HunterICX]

Actually,
people who say ''its just a flag''
and ''that people should calm down about these kinds of issues''

I say tell that to the people who have fought for the land you're living on.

[Takeda Shingen]

To recap for those who have just tuned in:

We were given a link about someone who was angry about the display of the Mexican flag. Then we had three pages of discourse regarding what the definition of 'is' is.

This recapitulation has been brought to you by SubSim General Topics: Where we'll argue about anything.

[Letum]

SubSim General Topics: Where we'll argue about anything.


No we won't.


..........idiot.


;)

[antikristuseke]

How dare you argue that we do not argue about anything, im waiting for proof of your argument:smug:

[DeepIron]

Seriously, though. Sure, nationalism has historically been a factor in wars, but I don't think Subman rates anywhere on the fanatic scale to be called a sheep. Flags are symbols of beliefs and ideas, and are regulated by custom and courtesy. Hoisting a foreign flag above the American flag is very rude. It's deliberately provocative. It makes a statement to the people in this country. To me it says, you are beneath us. In your own land. You may think that is okay, but you can't be surprised if it angers most other Americans.
Posted with eloquence Neal... IMHO, the best explanation I've read yet...:up:

And yes, I fall into the "angered Americans" category.. It's tough for me to be a veteran having fought for my country (let's not open the "right or wrong" issue, Ok?) and then see a foreign flag raised over my homeland the way the Mexican flags have been lately. For me there is no compromise in this. If I have/had the opportunity to do what the vet in the video did, or like the vet at UNM did, I would do the same thing...:yep:

[bradclark1]

And yes, I fall into the "angered Americans" category.. It's tough for me to be a veteran having fought for my country (let's not open the "right or wrong" issue, Ok?) and then see a foreign flag raised over my homeland the way the Mexican flags have been lately. For me there is no compromise in this. If I have/had the opportunity to do what the vet in the video did, or like the vet at UNM did, I would do the same thing...:yep:

I hate 'me too' posts, but...me too.

[JALU3]

And yes, I fall into the "angered Americans" category.. It's tough for me to be a veteran having fought for my country (let's not open the "right or wrong" issue, Ok?) and then see a foreign flag raised over my homeland the way the Mexican flags have been lately. For me there is no compromise in this. If I have/had the opportunity to do what the vet in the video did, or like the vet at UNM did, I would do the same thing...:yep:

I hate 'me too' posts, but...me too.

To quote many callers:

Ditto.:up:

[Kapitan_Phillips]

...it's nationilstic sheep like you who started both World Wars...
So would that make him a nationalistic German, Japanese or Italian? LOL... I don't recall the US "starting" either of the World Wars... :roll:

I DO remember however, the US FINISHING them... :up: (Neal beat me to it... )


Oi! We were there too! :p

[Kapitan_Phillips]

And for the record, there's a big time difference between being proud of ones country and its heritage and being a nationalist sheep.

[RedMenace]

And for the record, there's a big time difference between being proud of ones country and its heritage and being a nationalist sheep.

And there's a big time difference between being proud of one's country and its heritage, and defending the destruction and theft of another man's property.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

You're generalising. Just because someone is proud of their country and flag doesnt mean they support the leaders or policies. Or "destruction and theft of people's property"

[Seth8530]

You may call me a nazi, a war starter a nationalist but that idiot deserved to have that flag cut down for flieng it above our own.

[antikristuseke]

I wouldnt say that this makes you a nazi etc. but id say there were better ways to handling that situation instead of cuting it down in front of tv cameras and stealing the flag.

[SUBMAN1]

I wouldnt say that this makes you a nazi etc. but id say there were better ways to handling that situation instead of cuting it down in front of tv cameras and stealing the flag.
I disagree with this idea. In front of TV cameras was an ideal place to do it, so that other people are aware that most of us find this Mexican above our own to be a bad idea.

Remember the Boston Tea Party? Same mentality, simply a different situation. Should they have destroyed the British tea because it was destruction of property? Yes, because it made the point. Same with this guy.

-S

[antikristuseke]

Yes i remember the Boston Tea Party, but i dont see it as being all that similar, the only similarity being that both are acts of protest. Anyway i agree with you on the point that having one flag flown higher than the other is wrong, but this isnt the ideal way of seeing things handled in my opinion.

[SUBMAN1]

Yes i remember the Boston Tea Party, but i dont see it as being all that similar, the only similarity being that both are acts of protest. Anyway i agree with you on the point that having one flag flown higher than the other is wrong, but this isnt the ideal way of seeing things handled in my opinion.

Maybe not in your opinion, but it is the right thing to do. The point being however that us Americans see the advertising and acts of property destruction as an important heritage when it comes to acts related to Nationalism and Patriotism. They are warranted in such circumstances. To say they are not is to re-write history and remove the Boston Tea party from the record.

-S

[antikristuseke]

What circumstances warrant destruction of private property as an act of protest, when you feel offended?

[SUBMAN1]

What circumstances warrant destruction of private property as an act of protest, when you feel offended?
You have two examples above. What is it that you don't get? Duty is the major one. Every American should uphold the flag and interests of the nation. If this is not acceptable to someone, they can leave. You are free here to leave, and these very ideals are what give you that freedom.

-S

[StdDev]

C'mon guys.. lets get this "debate" back where it should be....

Subman.. AntiK.. I would like both of you to study this exceptional example of proper "debating" form..
Then come back with your arguments one more time.. :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5UJOvVoPcw

[antikristuseke]

You have two examples above. What is it that you don't get? Duty is the major one. Every American should uphold the flag and interests of the nation. If this is not acceptable to someone, they can leave. You are free here to leave, and these very ideals are what give you that freedom.

-S

I dont see the paralels here between the two acts of protest. The first was to protest taxing leniense towards the British East India Company which economicaly hurt colonial americas desire for independance. The second is a veteran cuting down a flag, which was hoisted in an arrogant and illegal manner, and stealing it. Where are the similarities between the two, this is what i dont get. Another thing i dont understand is the need for such strong symbols, to me it looks very similar to a cult of personality and as past has shown us trong symbols are easily exploitable.
Anyway, yes I agree that the flag should have been taken down but not in this kind of a maner.

[DeepIron]

Another thing i dont understand is the need for such strong symbols...

Well, AK until you do understand such symbols, you find it hard to understand where we (Americans protesting this whole Mexican flag business) are coming from I think.

No disrespect intended, you just need the right perspective...

It's interesting to note, that in the early stages of our War for Independence, each state had it's own flag, such as we have today. Patriots were proud to be from this state or that state. There was not "national" symbol...

It wasn't until the first Stars and Stripes was created that Americans had a symbol to rally under AS A NATION.

[DeepIron]

Another thing i dont understand is the need for such strong symbols...
Well, AK until you do understand such symbols, you find it hard to understand where we (Americans protesting this whole Mexican flag business) are coming from I think.

No disrespect intended, you just need the right perspective...

For one, in the Revolutionalry War, we fought the most organized and efficient army on earth... and won! You would have to do some serious reading concerning the Revolutionary War to understand what staggering odds we overcame to beat the British Army.

Secondly, our founding fathers forged a democracy with a Constitution that guarantees an incredible amount of personal freedom. A system that is still working (despite the Bush Administration, IMO) to serve it's people, Americans.

Third, our system of government and our freedoms have been "a light" to millions who have immigrated to the US to escape tyranny, oppression and economic disasters.

The list goes on... And I for one am damn proud of what my country has accomplished for good and fundamentally what it stands for.

It takes a powerful symbol to adequately represent my country.

It's interesting to note, that in the early stages of our War for Independence, each state had it's own flag, such as we have today. Patriots were proud to be from this state or that state. There was not a "national" symbol... It wasn't until the first Stars and Stripes was created that Americans had a symbol to rally under AS A NATION.

[SUBMAN1]

I dont see the paralels here between the two acts of protest. The first was to protest taxing leniense towards the British East India Company which economicaly hurt colonial americas desire for independance. The second is a veteran cuting down a flag, which was hoisted in an arrogant and illegal manner, and stealing it. Where are the similarities between the two, this is what i dont get. Another thing i dont understand is the need for such strong symbols, to me it looks very similar to a cult of personality and as past has shown us trong symbols are easily exploitable.
Anyway, yes I agree that the flag should have been taken down but not in this kind of a maner. If you can't see the similarities between the two, you are wearing blinders my friend. Both have destruction of property, and both are symbols of our nation. The strong symbols must also be present for unity as a people. You need not follow it blindly, but you must also need not ignore it completely. To do so means the end of the greatest nation the world has ever seen.

Let's analyze what is happening here and lay it all out on the table -

Both acts have a right and wrong here. I give you the fact and agree that destroying the rope holding this flag and stealing that flag is a wrong. It is also a wrong to let it fly in this nation like it was. So I guess you could say that both have their rights and wrongs about leaving the flag or cutting it down. This point I agree with you, and I beleive you agree with me on it. So it comes down to a set of morals here that can be divided and described in two distinct ways and only two ways:

1. The me/here/now, get everything I can during my lifetime without regard to anyone else. This is the scenario of the self centered person. He/she is out to get everything they can for themselves leaving a barren wasteland for future generations. They have little regard for the country they live in or what it stands for and have little regard for what happens to it after they are gone. They simply care about today. This is the scenario of the person that would leave or hoist such a flag.

2. The person that cares about future generations as much as his/her own. This is the person that is nationalistic and patriotic. This person sacrifices for the future. This person is as equally at home having a good life, as is making sure that his good life is as good or better for future generations as it is for him/her now. He is worried about the children at their future and making sure his country still stands for the children of the future.

So it comes down to what or where you stand. You may have a foot in both camps, but you mainly stand in only one. In which camp is it that you stand? That is a question you must ask yourself. In the end, for which camp you choose, there is only one right answer to move forward. The other invites disaster.

I'm now done with this conversation.

-S

[Tchocky]

I don't see why this couldn't be discussed. Because someone acts in an arrogant and dismissive manner is no reason to respond in kind. Oh well, I suppose it's only a flag. Somehow we've all managed to stay alive through this harrowing time.

[DeepIron]

@SUBMAN1 :up::up::up::up::up:

Oh well, I suppose it's only a flag.

To some people, that may be true. To others, it means a lot more. And that's the issue... There are some of us to whom the US flag is more than "just a flag" or "just a symbol"...

[JALU3]

If it is only a symbol, and means nothing else but the symbol itself, and not attached to any larger meaning, then you are arguing it's OK to destroy symbols . . . by themselves, since they hold no meaning to them.

Therefore, it would be OK to burn the Union Flag infront of Parliment. It is OK to burn a rainbow patterned upside down triangle at the corner of Market & Castro. It is OK to burn a Mexican Flag before entering Tijuana. It is OK to burn a statue of fidel castro in Havana. It is OK to burn a statue of Mohammed in Mecca.
For as you say, it is nothing but an object, with no connection to any meaning(s) attach to it.
So flying a foreign flag at a more promenent position above the nation's own flag is OK. Burning a nation's own flag disrespectfully is OK.
So tearing up any sacred text infront of its house of worship is OK.
. . . Love to see any of what I have stated above happen in Denmark without massive protest and outrage occuring.

[RedMenace]

If it is only a symbol, and means nothing else but the symbol itself, and not attached to any larger meaning, then you are arguing it's OK to destroy symbols . . . by themselves, since they hold no meaning to them.

Therefore, it would be OK to burn the Union Flag infront of Parliment. It is OK to burn a rainbow patterned upside down triangle at the corner of Market & Castro. It is OK to burn a Mexican Flag before entering Tijuana. It is OK to burn a statue of fidel castro in Havana. It is OK to burn a statue of Mohammed in Mecca.
For as you say, it is nothing but an object, with no connection to any meaning(s) attach to it.
So flying a foreign flag at a more promenent position above the nation's own flag is OK. Burning a nation's own flag disrespectfully is OK.
So tearing up any sacred text infront of its house of worship is OK.
. . . Love to see any of what I have stated above happen in Denmark without massive protest and outrage occuring.


If you ask me, doing anything that you described is A-Okay. Just don't look at me when someone kicks your ass.

Which is my point.

If people like you wouldn't get so worked up over meaningless symbols, then the stuff that happens like in Denmark wouldnt exist. It's people devotion to lifeless symbolism that causes problems.

[JALU3]

So you agree that people attach meanings to symbols . . . and that violance is a natural reaction when someone descrates a symbol.

[sunvalleyslim]

Subman..............you're telling it like it is...........OUR COUNTRY, OUR FLAG, OUR NATION, If you don't love your country, you're on a boat without a rudder.....If you can't defend your country, and it's honor, Pick another country, because it doesn't need you..................And the greatest symbol of your country is its flag. That's why all nations have one

[Camaero]

So you agree that people attach meanings to symbols . . . and that violance is a natural reaction when someone descrates a symbol.

I have no problems agreeing with that. The American flag means a lot more to me than just a piece of cloth. Whenever I see it I think of all the millions of sacrifices that have been made for that flag and for this country. The flag represents this country and it represents this countries struggle, as well as her success. So yeah, when I see a Mexican flag flying on our soil or someone burning the flag, I would have no problems putting my foot up those people’s asses. They are making a statement by doing that, so why can't I?

[The Avon Lady]

So you agree that people attach meanings to symbols . . . and that violance is a natural reaction when someone descrates a symbol.
Violence? Did the Mexican flag suffer? :o Can you feel the pain? :roll:

Such an act generally falls under the category of "civil disobedience".

If you google for civil disobedience (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%2B%22civil+disobedience%22+%2Bdemocracy), you'll find the entire leftist/liberal/marxist world singing its praises. Now see what happens when a true patriot uses it to retain the elementary honor of his country.

EDIT:

You're a grand old flag,
You're a high flying flag
And forever in peace may you wave.
You're the emblem of
The land I love.
The home of the free and the brave.
Ev'ry heart beats true
'neath the Red, White and Blue,
Where there's never a boast or brag.
Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
Keep your eye on the grand old flag.

You're a grand old flag,
You're a high flying flag
And forever in peace may you wave.
You're the emblem of
The land I love.
The home of the free and the brave.
Ev'ry heart beats true
'neath the Red, White and Blue,
Where there's never a boast or brag.
Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
Keep your eye on the grand old flag.
- George M. Cohan

[Kapitan_Phillips]

For once I agree with you, sunvalleyslim. Its not an issue of whether or not desecration of a country's flag provokes violence, its an issue of people respecting the fact that (in the Mexican flag instance) they're in another country, which has as much national pride as Mexico does.

I mean, look at The Avon Lady's signature. She hasn't got a GIF of the Israeli flag just to piss people off. She's proud to be in Israel and accepts its heritage. She'd be perfectly fine if she chose not to flaunt it, but I'd wager she chooses to not to provoke a reaction, but to say "I'm from Israel and I'm proud of it".