Stop The Spraying!!!

[Quagmire]

My sonar man has been taking a shower for the last five days!

Here is the story. I was on that stupid photo recon of Dalian harbor suicide mission when I had a bright idea. Why not sit on the bottom outside the harbor and wait until nightfall so that I can acutally sneak into the place. Well I stopped the boat (no forward movement at all, speed 0 kts) and gently settled onto the bottom. I mean like a feather resting on a pillow.

Well I sat there for a while, got bored, and hit the time compression. All of a sudden I see lights blinking, etc. and I think OMG! what happened! I peek outside with the observation scope and find nothing. All clear. I was deep enough so that a ship could have not run over me and my sonar man never picked up anything anyway. WAS I HIT BY A WHALE OR SOMETHING??

Well I decide to go ahead with the mission anyway since the sub seemed ok. I took all the pictures but still no mission accomplished!!! That mission is bugged, BIG TIME!

Thats not the point. Either my damage control team is worthless or the damage model of the subs is FUBAR in this sim. I am leaning towards the latter since the conning tower has a leak ON THE SURFACE!!!! even though it is above the waterline!

Am I doing something wrong? My DC team has been working for the last five days and still the high-pressure spray in the control room and conning tower. The damage control page shows all systems green and even that nifty "hidden-damage" report tool that someone created shows only 5% hull damage.

Why cant the shower be turned off in the conning tower? The DC team always fixed these things in SHIII. My sonar man is gonna get trench foot if I cant dry him out sooner or later.

We still have 16 more days before we get back to Pearl! :help:
.

[tater]

Subs in SH4 take 2 kinds of damage.

There is the systems damage you see in the damage control screen. In addition, the sub has a total number of hitpoints. The hitpoints are really the overall hull integrity.

The crush depth of the sub is a function of hitpoints.

If you see blinking lights, or leaks that never get repaired, it means that you took substantial hitpoint damage. This means you need to RTB, and try not to dive too deep if at all possible. In fact, stay on the surface as long as possible. In a harbor, you might have hit a mine or a sub net.

tater

[Hawk_345]

yes, tater is right, there are also some utilites out there that show your total damage to the sub, the damge not listed ingame, but you need to save first, then use the program.

[Krauter]

yes, tater is right, there are also some utilites out there that show your total damage to the sub, the damge not listed ingame, but you need to save first, then use the program.

Yes, Hawk & tater are correct, the only way to check what hitpoints as well as exactly wat has been destroyed beyond recognition is to access your save files.

With Regards,

Krauter

[SteamWake]

If you see blinking lights, or leaks that never get repaired, it means that you took substantial hitpoint damage. This means you need to RTB, and try not to dive too deep if at all possible.

A tad obscure... but there it is. Good advice.

[Quagmire]

If you see blinking lights, or leaks that never get repaired, it means that you took substantial hitpoint damage. This means you need to RTB, and try not to dive too deep if at all possible.
A tad obscure... but there it is. Good advice.

The whole thing is obscure. How can I have a cronic leak in the conning tower WHEN I AM SURFACED???? :doh: :doh: :doh:

The whole compartment is above the waterline when surfaced. :nope:

The sub damage model just aint right. Anyone know a good modder??? :hmm:
.

[tater]

The leak is not the damage model. The leak is a way to warn you that the hull is damaged. It's nothing more.

To do this on the surface is a sign that it must be pretty bad, actually.

Take a new boat. Dive past the max depth (red line). Keep going. Before the boat crushes, you will see the lights blink, leaks, etc. That is the game telling you you are near CRUSH DEPTH. If it does it on the surface, the surface is now near crush depth for your boat.

Save your game there (the one leaking on the surface). DIve to PD and stay there in TC for a while and see what happens. Try some other depths, see how long you last.

tater

[swdw]

The whole thing is obscure. How can I have a cronic leak in the conning tower WHEN I AM SURFACED???? :doh: :doh: :doh:

The whole compartment is above the waterline when surfaced. :nope:

The sub damage model just aint right. Anyone know a good modder??? :hmm:
.
OK, first of all you are NOT IN THE CONNING TOWER unless you're on the bridge. You are in the control room, a portion of which is ALWAYS under the waterline. So if the hull breach is in the right place you can have water coming in on the surface.

The conning tower was added to subs as a way to give lookouts more distance from the water surface, to keep water in rough seas from pouring into what would otherwise be a open deck hatch, and as a support for periscopes and such so the main hull doesn't have to get so close to the surface when making a submerged approach. As such, there are no critical controls in the tower, they are in the control room below the tower and inside the pressure hull. So take this into account before yelling something is wrong with the damage model.

Next, looking at the previous description- You can settle lightly but still stress the hull, causing a weak point that will eventually fail from the constant pressure. If this game follows this idea, your problem makes sense. Plus, in real life, you can stress the hull even more breaking the suction from the bottom when you start moving again. Did you lift from the bottom at all stop? If you read "Blind Man's Bluff" you'll read about an interesting experience the Seawolf had in a Russian harbor after she'd settled on the bottom. Also, had you undergone any depth charge attacks before reaching the harbor? That's adding stress on stress.

In addition, if you are in shallower water in real life, swells will cause the boat to rock on the bottom. Maybe the game takes this into account. If you are sitting on a rocky seabed, lots of things can happen with sea pressure, swells, underwater currents, and bottom suction. The idea of going to the bottom at the drop of a hat is a hollywood approach. It was a dangerous idea then, still is, and was done with a lot of reluctance by even the most experienced skipper. Worst case - bottom suction could trap you on the seabed. Next worse- you damage your screws, rudder, and hull and can't make it home. Or you damage the screws and hull and become a giant noisemaker. None of these are good;)

So there's the real life take on this tactic. Oh, and BTW, the photos are uselss unless you get them to the people who need them. See if the mission gives you asuccessful completion when you make it back to base. Since that seems dicey with your current damage, maybe the game won't give you a successful completion until you have the photos on the pier?

[tater]

There is an issue with collision damage, actually.

It's very strange. A DD can ram you at flank, and the sub takes no damage, while the DD explodes. OTOH, I have bounced on the bottom a little and been sunk. (a DC too far to do damage, but close enough to rock the boat).

There ARE sub damage model issues, but the leak is not one of them.

I'd really like to understand the collision damage and figure out why sbs are so much stronger than DDs in collisions. Actually, they have far more hitpoints than DDs, perhaps that is the problem...

tater

[Quagmire]

OK, first of all you are NOT IN THE CONNING TOWER unless you're on the bridge. You are in the control room, a portion of which is ALWAYS under the waterline. So if the hull breach is in the right place you can have water coming in on the surface.
What is this room called then?
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/1376/shower2zv4.jpg

The leak is not the damage model. The leak is a way to warn you that the hull is damaged. It's nothing more. To do this on the surface is a sign that it must be pretty bad, actually.

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/3729/damagegt6.jpg

This damage doesnt look bad to me. I can still dive to 400ft without problems. The sub damage model DOES need a lot of work.
.

[Sailor Steve]

OK, first of all you are NOT IN THE CONNING TOWER unless you're on the bridge. You are in the control room, a portion of which is ALWAYS under the waterline. So if the hull breach is in the right place you can have water coming in on the surface.

The conning tower was added to subs as a way to give lookouts more distance from the water surface, to keep water in rough seas from pouring into what would otherwise be a open deck hatch, and as a support for periscopes and such so the main hull doesn't have to get so close to the surface when making a submerged approach. As such, there are no critical controls in the tower, they are in the control room below the tower and inside the pressure hull. So take this into account before yelling something is wrong with the damage model.
Not true at all. The bridge is the open area on top of the conning tower. The conning tower on a U.S. submarine had enough room for about ten men, and all attack operations were run from it.
http://www.maritime.org/tour/tctvr.htm

The control room is a whole 'nother place.
http://www.maritime.org/tour/tcrvr.htm

(From the link so graciously supplied by Ping Panther in his new thread)



@Quagmire: the hull isn't leaking while you're surfaced - the spray is coming from a broken feed pipe inside the hull. Get someone to fix it.

[tater]

DOn't take the leak literally.

Look, your hull is damaged something like 50%, and I knew youneeded to head home without having to run a separate program ;)

The fact the damage happened on the bottom is a legitimate issue, however, THAT might need fixing, not the leaks that actually give the skipper information about his boat.


tater

[swdw]

Note- I stand corrected, you are in the conning tower- took a look at the info I had and realized I mis- interperted it.

Aside from the fact that Tater points out this is a game tool to let you know you have hull damage, let me answer some other things.

First, the leak is simulated from a pressurized water line and this signifies, as tater said, a problem with the hull (and can even on a real boat) . . . possibly I have a little experience in this area (look at my sig). A pressurized line will leak if you're submerged, surfaced, or flying. In real life, when a valve leaks from a body, or stem, it requires replacing the valve which in some cases is NOT POSSIBLE AT SEA because it is the last isolation point before the hull penetration. This is simulated nicely by the placement of the valve.

Subs have 2 hulls ,an outer hull which does not have to stand up to pressure and the inner pressure hull. With this configuration the outer hull will make it look like a compartment is above the water line when, in actuallity, it may be totally/partially submerged. The outer hull is a skin to protect the ballast tanks and other equipment mounted outside the pressure hull.

Go here and you'll see a simple diagram of this
http://saragossa.net/cubby/howasubworks.html

Now, more info on setting a boat on the bottom. Just because you have an INDICATED speed of 0 knots doens't mean your aren't moving at some speed relative to the sea floor. If you are drifting in a current, your indicated speed will be 0 even though the boat may be moving at anywhere up to several knots in relation to the sea floor. This is one of the risks in putting a boat on the bottom. Unless you have a fathometer ( a modern one that gives you a profile, not just a depth reading) that allows you to monitor the bottom and ensure you are hovering, you can hit the floor at sufficient speed to do damage. I wasn't kidding in the other post when I said this is considered a VERY RISKY tactic.

Next, dealing with hull stress. If you are underwater your ballast tanks are filled with water making the boat negatively bouyant, placing the entire weight of the hull on the bottom. The pressure hull is designed to withstand equidistant pressure on the entire surface. Excessive stress on only one area causing unequal pressure that is too excessive can cause damage or failure- this is the principal behind a depth charge. Since the ocean floor is not flat, you have no idea where pressure may be placed on the hull or the keel.. You can high center the boat causing the weight from the bow and stern to make the hull droop at each end. Now you have incredible stresses placed on a hull. You can settle in an area where 2/3 of the hull issupported causing uneven stress as the unsupported section tries to droop. The longer you sit there, the more cumulative stress you add to the hull. Any protruding rocks will make matters worse.

So you know, when pulled into dry dock a boat is settled onto the blocks which are placed at specific points on the hull that are designed to distribute the stress. It's settled on the blocks through a combination of ballast tanks AND lowering the level in the drydock

Just because you think you did a perfect bottoming doesn't mean you did. SO take a couple of deep breaths, get your boat to port and do a little more research on real submarines, damage control and advisable tactics. Your gameplay experience will benefit from it.

It's very obvious from your questions/comments there's more for you to learn about submarines, underwater operations, and the effects of pressurized water and stress on a submarine. So before you start hollering for a new DM, you might want to do some reading.

[Sailor Steve]

[FIRST- the room is the control room not the conning tower. See the curve in the wall, otherwise known as the pressure hull? Youare BELOW THE DECK.
Oops! My bad.:oops: Sorry to contradict; I didn't even notice that part. Your statement about the bridge threw me. You're right, he is in the control room...either that, or something is wrong with the graphic.:rotfl:

[tater]

That said, the spraying might well happen above the waterline in the game. I'm not really focused on that.

1. The game is poorly documented regarding this feature, so players think that their damage control has fixed everything, and they don't realize not everything gets fixed.

2. related to #1, they don't realize the spraying is the game telling them something isn;t fixed---and can NEVR be fixed at sea.

3. the spray might not be the best way to tell the player this, but what would be better? The idea is that it is possible to have damage that is not apparent to the crew. A bad weld someplace, weakened by a recent DC attack (or bump on the bottom). It will manifest itself via total failure, and not before that (except maybe if it gets x-rayed in port).

So again, I'm not trying to jump on him at all, I think it's important to realize that the devs were obviously trying to have a more immersive way of telling the player he had hull integrity damage than some sort of hull % indicator. Their choice was little leaks that never get fixed.

tater

[_Civ_]

As for that mission being incompletable, I agree. I posted my methode of completing here:


http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6421019045/m/2261030175

[SteamWake]

Remember ... even while surfaced. 80% of your boat is under water :hmm:

[Quagmire]

Dude, go to the USS Pampanito website and read the Fleet Type Submarine Manual.

Here is the link for ya: http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/chap3.htm#fig3-06

Go to page 29-30. Here is an quote from the manual.

3A5. Conning tower. The compartment immediately above the control room is the conning tower. (See Figure 3-6.) It is the main navigation and firing control station for the submarine. The conning tower contains the periscopes and the periscope hoist equipment, the radio direction finder, the sonar equipment, the radar equipment, the torpedo data computer (TDC), the gyro repeater, the conning tower steering stand, and the various pressure gages and indicators.

Here is a visual aid for ya:
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/8223/conningtowerkv6.jpg

Looks a lot like the things in this room, doesnt it?
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/1376/shower2zv4.jpg

Now this is the control room:
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/630/controlsx8.jpg

This looks a lot like the room BELOW the conning tower doesnt it? Here is a nice cross section of the bulkheads to make it easy for ya
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/8148/crosssecvt8.jpg

Notice the CONNING TOWER is ABOVE the CONTROL ROOM and the top of the CONNING TOWER is well ABOVE the waterline when surfaced. SO HOW THE HELL DO I GET A HIGH PRESSURE LEAK FROM A VALVE ON THE CEILING OF THE CONNING TOWER WHEN SURFACED!!!!!

Even if it is some high pressure line and not a leak from the outside surely my crew would be able to isolate it after FIVE days!!!! There certainly is another shut off point for a high pressure line somewhere in the system. Then they could weld the damn busted valve shut. You cant tell me that even if they couldnt fix it at sea, they should at least be able to stop water from spraying all over the radar and sonar for five days. I think that would be a priority for the damage control team!!!

Face it. The water spray indicatior is a pretty stupid idea to immersively alert the player to hull damage. How about the Chief Engineer simply saying, "I think the hull is damaged sir"? I am no genius software developer and I thought of that one.

:nope: :nope: :nope: :nope: :nope:

[swdw]

Posted my correction earlier- should have added a follow up telling you I'd corrected it. As stated before your post, I stand corrected and had misinterpreted the erlier info I was looking at.

Now to get back to the valve-

I was talking real life situations which may not apply to this valve. Tater has stated twice that this is an indicator of hull damage. In this case the hull damage is obviously NOT repairable by the crew. Although there are amazing repairs that can be made at sea, not everything is fixable. And as I've stated, just because you think you bottomed perfectly doesn't mean you did.

And as for the pics, nice to see you followed the link I gave you and then went to the sub manual link on the same page. Was hoping you'd look at the manual.

Oh one more thing about bottoming, settling at a shallow angle can cause damage to the hull when bottoming besides the other stuff mentioned.

[Quagmire]

Oh I have known about that Fleet manual for some time. I have even been aboard the Pampanito. It is an excellent museum for sure.

Anyway the bottoming issue aside, the damage cue is rediculous. I am sure that a well trained USN damage control team would find some way to stop water from spraying all over the sensitive electronics in the conning tower. And they definitely should be successful after five days.

All systems can be isolated to shut off in multiple locations if you look at the schematics in the Fleet manual. Having this valve leak water all over the radar all the way back to Pearl and not be able to do a thing about it is a HUGE immersion killer. Heck, even if they couldnt fix the valve at all whatever liquid that was spraying out would have bleed clean after five days. That is why alerting the player to massive hull damage with an unending waterfall is such a STUPID idea.

Now you know why I am calling for a mod. I am willing to help as well.
.

[MONOLITH]

It's very obvious from your questions/comments there's more for you to learn about submarines, underwater operations, and the effects of pressurized water and stress on a submarine. So before you start hollering for a new DM, you might want to do some reading.



*Trying to bite my tongue*


This rudeness from a man who bursts in here claiming all sorts of 'ex-submariner' experience, who didn't know the contents of a conning tower.

Shameful.




.

[SteamWake]

Even more shamefull is the direction this thread is taking.

Trying to equate real life physics to a game feature, then getting into heated arguments and sniping over it's 'reality'. Its starting to sound like a school yard.

It is what it is a 'feature' to let the player know that something is wrong. How is that any worse than a little red bar that fills up ? Im no submariner but Im pretty sure they dont have little red bars.

[tater]

Guys, there are a few issues here, some legitimate damage issues and some user interface issues.

One, taking damage on the bottom, IMO, is very very easy. This is odd, because collisions with ships show the sub to be nearly invulnerable. I think that regardless of where leaks are seen, this is an issue.

Two, the leaks as a warning. There are 4 was to do this.

1. A hull integrity meter that either shows a % (bad idea, way too much information), or maybe just: Hull OK, Hull possibly damaged, Hull definitely damaged.

2. Some visual cue (ie: leaks, etc, what is in the game now)

3. The ability to ask for a damage control report, and get an answer that includes a vague hull integrity (Hull OK, Hull possibly damaged, Hull definitely damaged).

4. Nothing at all, you know the hull was compromised when you see things start to fail.

#1 is not in the game, and probably cannot be modded.

#2 is in the game and could possibly be removed, or lessened visually, no more (at least not easily). Note that it might remove leaks even when they would be good to see.

#3 is not likely possible to mod.

#4 is possible assuming you delete the leaks and mess with the damage model (Redwine's work).

Note that all the reactions to the visual cue (the leaks) are going to be opinion, some will care, some won't. On the surface I'm on deck anyway, so it's not something I'd notice much.

<shrug>

tater

[wetwarev7]

While this thread may be taking a bit of a turn for the worse, I have learned quite a bit from it(such as the water spray being an in-game indication that I may not want to submerge too deep).

Debate often helps us all to learn new things. Hopefully, we can keep this to a healthy debate, and not a personal one.

I have much to learn.....:up:

[MONOLITH]

I have much to learn.....:up:

As do we all.

Most of us give and take information with the intent of camaraderie.

There's always some who want to stand on a pedestal built upon fake knowledge, and jam their superiority down our throats with a spoonful of condescension disguised with a thinly veiled " I just want to help".


:|\\


Moving forward;

Since this is a video game, and it does not correctly model all the various ocean pressures of the world or various inconsistancies of thousands of miles of ocean bottom;

I'd say our friend Quagmire had best just limp that puppy home as quickly as possible and get her patched up. His sonarman will just have to have wet shoes until then. :smug:

[AVGWarhawk]

[FIRST- the room is the control room not the conning tower. See the curve in the wall, otherwise known as the pressure hull? Youare BELOW THE DECK. Oops! My bad.:oops: Sorry to contradict; I didn't even notice that part. Your statement about the bridge threw me. You're right, he is in the control room...either that, or something is wrong with the graphic.:rotfl:
To quell the riot....On the USS Torsk, when me and my daughters decide to check out the scopes, we cimb through the sail(from the deck) UP onto the bridge. At the rear is the hatch and you GO BELOW into the conning tower. Yes the walls are curved and it looks very much like the game graphic. You are infact inside the pressure hull. Below there is another ladder to the control room which looks very much like the control room in the game. It is modelled graphically very well. But, the top half of the pressure hull is above water when surfaced. Logic would dictate there should be no water spraying out of the hull. In fact, I believe it is leaking out of a pipe which is quite possible as pipes run through the boat for water transfer. If submerged and there is a leak then ok, I'll buy it but surfaced and spraying I do not. Bad graphics in this respect.

Thank you for your attention in this matter.

The Management

[AVGWarhawk]

It's very obvious from your questions/comments there's more for you to learn about submarines, underwater operations, and the effects of pressurized water and stress on a submarine. So before you start hollering for a new DM, you might want to do some reading.


*Trying to bite my tongue*


This rudeness from a man who bursts in here claiming all sorts of 'ex-submariner' experience, who didn't know the contents of a conning tower.

Shameful.




.

Ok, the man corrected himself and I suspect a nuke boat driver. I have a nuke boat driver for a friend and he could not tell you the layout of a WWII submarine if his life depended on it. Be good!:D

[Snuffy]

I always took the spraying to indicate a broken pipe more than hull damage ... hmmm interesting thought though.

[MONOLITH]

I have the solution fellas...

I'm going to mod the water spray to a brown color, and lable the pipe "Under pressure: From Bilge Pumps".

:up:

[Quagmire]

Yeah all this bickering is pointless. Come on over to the MODS forum and lets get serious about a damage mod folks.

Come on, all the cool kids are doing it... :|\\ :|\\
.

[AVGWarhawk]

:rotfl:

[swdw]

Shameful.
.
Lessee, how to reply to this?

How about- right on target.

Unfortunately, I took a rather bad mood out from a rough week out on quagmire. Will not offer excuses but rather an apology.

So for Quagmire and those who responded in both threads. I apologize for going off half cocked and will do my best to never do it again.

As for the submarine experience- you can read my reply near the end (at this time) of this post:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=122894

[MONOLITH]

I was having a fairly bad day myself at that time. I'm equally guilty.

Cheers.