Which ships am I allowed to attack?

[Dau-U-42]

The real rules of submarine warfare were quite complicated. There were all these rules and exceptions: you can attack merchants, but only in convoy, when they had no lights on, when they refused to communicate... Then neutral merchants, 'unrestricted submarine warfare'... :-?

So, I'm asking which ships am I allowed to attack by the REAL standards and rulings of the war. Of course these changed continuously, so I might need some dates.:hmm:

[Brag]

If you are using GWX, you'll get messages which will tell you.
This didn't last very long, U boats stopped neutral ships and checked manifests. As far as I can tell Once Britain declared war, Brit ships were subject to unrestricted submarine warfare.

[U-96]

From 1939 on, Anything with a British or Canadian flag on it's mast is open game. Merchants and warships, though tackle with a destroyer at your own risk. From 1940 on French and Norweigian ships are open game as well.

From 1942, U.S. ships are open to attack. You won't encounter many ships of other nations so you don't have much to worry about.

Save your Torpedoes for Merchants or especially tankers and Troop ships, they are very valuble targets and add handsomely to both your tonnage and renown. For warships, anything smaller then a cruiser is a waste. Destroyers are very hard to hit (Don't even think of going after one with T1 Torpedoes, all you're doing is giving away your position. If you MUST attack destroyers go for any torpedo that's electric powered as these are wakeless and very hard to spot, if they do and your fish is on the mark, it's too late for the destroyer to make evasive manuvers.)

[Jimbuna]

In GWX there is a pull down sheet of every nations affiliation and entry into the war in the top left corner of the periscope view :arrgh!:

[NiclDoe]

In a word: ALL!!!!!!!!!!

[von Zelda]

The real rules of submarine warfare were quite complicated. There were all these rules and exceptions: you can attack merchants, but only in convoy, when they had no lights on, when they refused to communicate... Then neutral merchants, 'unrestricted submarine warfare'... :-?

So, I'm asking which ships am I allowed to attack by the REAL standards and rulings of the war. Of course these changed continuously, so I might need some dates.:hmm:

In the first few months of the war, U-boats operated under the Prize Rules of engagement which were established around 1935. These rules required stoping the merchant ship, inspecting papers and cargo, establishing the safety of the crew and then sinking the ship. These rules were not very good for U-boats so eventually they went by the way-side. Hitler ultimately declared the area around the UK a war zone, so all merchants could be attacked regardless of nationality. However, he did not want to draw the US into the war, so all US ships (including warships) and all passenger ships were to be untouchable.

That said, Lemp in (I think) U-30 sunk the passenger ship Athenia on the first day of the war without any warning. Lemp made a mistake thinkng the Athenia was an armed merchant ship.

Your best bet for accurate information would be to read a few good books on the Battle of the Atlantic and Clay Blair's book, Hitler's U-boat War 1939 - 1942 - The Hunters.

[Dau-U-42]

That said, Lemp in (I think) U-30 sunk the passenger ship Athenia on the first day of the war without any warning. Lemp made a mistake thinkng the Athenia was an armed merchant ship.


Speaking of mistakes and 'mistakes,' how frequent were these? If you look at statistics, like Uboat.net's today section (http://www.uboat.net/today.html), you'll encounter sunk neutral ships from as early as early 1939. The submarine warfare wasn't unrestricted, so these must have been mistakes or 'mistakes,' but which ones were they?

Also in SHIII don't I get a renown punish for sinking neutrals?

[papa_smurf]

All ships are viable tagets, except neutrals and hospital ships - If you happen to sink one, you get a 10,000 point renow deduction.

[von Zelda]

Speaking of mistakes and 'mistakes,' how frequent were these? If you look at statistics, like Uboat.net's today section (http://www.uboat.net/today.html), you'll encounter sunk neutral ships from as early as early 1939. The submarine warfare wasn't unrestricted, so these must have been mistakes or 'mistakes,' but which ones were they?

Also in SHIII don't I get a renown punish for sinking neutrals?

In the first few months of the war, U-boat skippers were quite careful which ships were sunk. Lemp's sinking of the Athenia on the first day resulted in quite a stink in world opinion and skippers were again cautioned by BdU on theor specific orders.

Neutrals were stopped, papers checked and sunk if found to be carrying contraband to a British port. Once a war zone was declared around the UK, all ships were subject to sinking without warning (unrestricted u-boat warfare).

However, up until late 1941, u-boat skippers were cautioned about attacking US warships and merchant ships, in or outside of convoys. Hitler did not want to give the US an excuse to enter the war. There were several cases of US merchants being sunk prior to December 11, 1941 but they were thought to be in disguise or carrying contraband. Several US warships were attacked because u-boat scippers thought they were under attack from the warship. The first US warship to be sunk prior to December 11, 1941 was the Rueben James. However, even this did not bring the US into war until the attack on Pearl Harbor when the US declared war on Japan, then on Dec. 11th Hitler declared war on the US. This pretty much made all shipping targets except some neutrals like Spain, etc.

Yes, SH3 does punish you for sinking neutrals by a reduction in renown.

[Dau-U-42]

Thanks everyone! Now I know pretty well, which ships will be my target. More info, if you have it, is still welcome, of course.

[Jimbuna]

If you sink a neutral, all vessels from that country will class you as an enemy for the next 24 hours :arrgh!:

[seafarer]

And during the Norwegian campaign, don't be too eager, as I was. Drunk with power after sinking 3 tribal destroyers just the night before, I lunged at the first darkened, lone merchant I saw after turning for home :oops:

No, it was not a neutral or anything so easily forgotton - it was one of our own (dang Nazi flag does NOT show well on an overcast, pitch black night against a pitch black ship :damn: :damn: :damn:

Luckely enough, my navigation skills are such that we can almost certainly prove we were nowhere near that area at the time :up:

[von Zelda]

Luckely enough, my navigation skills are such that we can almost certainly prove we were nowhere near that area at the time :up:

Don't forget to swear you crew to secrecy and falsify your war log.

[StarFox]

In a word: ALL!!!!!!!!!!

using GWX..no thats wrong


if you attack a red cross ship......you should shoot yourself when you get back to port

[Dau-U-42]

So I get renown minus if I sink a neutral in GWX? But isn't that unrealistic? And what's GWX all about? Realism! Is there/will there be a mod to make it possible to gain renown for sinking neutrals (when it was allowed)?

Anyways, I also found this (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-boatPolicy.htm). Pretty cool. Keep the conversation up! It is very interesting .

[Jimbuna]

I should imagine thare would only be a mod regarding neutral sinkings if someone took it upon themselves to make one.
I am not aware of any such plans in GWX :nope:

[Dau-U-42]

I should imagine thare would only be a mod regarding neutral sinkings if someone took it upon themselves to make one.
I am not aware of any such plans in GWX :nope:

:nope:

Attention modders, a request: Renown for neutrals! Anyone..? :oops:

[AG124]

So I get renown minus if I sink a neutral in GWX? But isn't that unrealistic? And what's GWX all about? Realism! Is there/will there be a mod to make it possible to gain renown for sinking neutrals (when it was allowed)?
In RL, certain neutrals were more off-limit than others - although there was no 'renown system' as there is in SHIII, :cool:, commanders who sank vessel from certain nations were not highly regarded for that particular feat. Particularly, commaders were strictly forbidden from attacking Spanish and Argentine vessels, (as Argentina was friendly towards Germany, and it was hoped that Spain would become a belligerent German ally), and in the last few months before Pearl Harbour, US vessels were off-limits (for the reasons discussed by von Zelda). Likewise, there were certain neutral nations whose ships could be accidently sunk by U-Boats, but which losses would not greatly concern Doenitz. These included Portugal (which lent the UK the Azores, and which was reportedly considered for invasion by Germany in 1941 or '42), and Brazil and Panama (before the last two actually entered the war).

However, there is no way to distinguish between 'enemy' and 'friendly' neutral in SHIII, just as there is no way for the game engine to distinguish between a legitimate neutral sailing alone and lighted, and one illegally darkened in a convoy. Thus, treating all neutrals as they were idealistically supposed to be treated in RL is the only realistic solution in GWX or in SHIII in general; you will not benefit your career by sinking them and will be looked down upon when you return to base for violating orders. You can, however, remove the renown penalty if you really want to, by changing the award value for neutral shipping from -1 to 0 in the appropriate .cfg file - I can't remember which one right now though, and I have to leave soon. Someone else may remember which file it is.:hmm:

[Dau-U-42]

So I get renown minus if I sink a neutral in GWX? But isn't that unrealistic? And what's GWX all about? Realism! Is there/will there be a mod to make it possible to gain renown for sinking neutrals (when it was allowed)?
In RL, certain neutrals were more off-limit than others - although there was no 'renown system' as there is in SHIII, :cool:, commanders who sank vessel from certain nations were not highly regarded for that particular feat. Particularly, commaders were strictly forbidden from attacking Spanish and Argentine vessels, (as Argentina was friendly towards Germany, and it was hoped that Spain would become a belligerent German ally), and in the last few months before Pearl Harbour, US vessels were off-limits (for the reasons discussed by von Zelda). Likewise, there were certain neutral nations whose ships could be accidently sunk by U-Boats, but which losses would not greatly concern Doenitz. These included Portugal (which lent the UK the Azores, and which was reportedly considered for invasion by Germany in 1941 or '42), and Brazil and Panama (before the last two actually entered the war).

However, there is no way to distinguish between 'enemy' and 'friendly' neutral in SHIII, just as there is no way for the game engine to distinguish between a legitimate neutral sailing alone and lighted, and one illegally darkened in a convoy. Thus, treating all neutrals as they were idealistically supposed to be treated in RL is the only realistic solution in GWX or in SHIII in general; you will not benefit your career by sinking them and will be looked down upon when you return to base for violating orders. You can, however, remove the renown penalty if you really want to, by changing the award value for neutral shipping from -1 to 0 in the appropriate .cfg file - I can't remember which one right now though, and I have to leave soon. Someone else may remember which file it is.:hmm:
Thanks for all the information! I will change the .cfg and then make my decissions by these rules in mind whenever I encounter a neutral ship. Once again, thanks everybody!

[Petrocelli]

Oh, Oh, I am on my first mission, and have been sinking anything that's not German. Am I going have to pull out my Luger and empty a round into my head for punishment when I get back?

The way I figure it is I was protecting our Fatherland from the Imperialistic British dogs, in the name of our great Fuhrer !!!

Cheers ;)

[Aktungbby]

Petrocelli!:Kaleun_Salute:don't solve your problems with your lugar...you will need it for your 'transfer' to the Eastern front!....