EU slaps Bill & company...

[DeepIron]

From Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSL1039839820070917

M$ gets what they deserve... finally.. IMO... :up:

A jubilant EU Competition Commissioner Neelie Kroes said the ruling should lead to a "significant drop" in Microsoft's 95 percent market share. Microsoft's top lawyer said it would affect the way the company markets its products in future.
Yeah, one can only hope that now they will actually think about the effect that pushing their cr*p (ME/Vista/etc) onto the public will have.

[AVGWarhawk]

700 million for M$ is drop in the bucket. But it does get a point across!

[The Avon Lady]

This is more about the EU's anti-monopoly court showering itself with a hollow victory than getting Microsoft to change 1 single line of code.

[Fish]

This is more about the EU's anti-monopoly court showering itself with a hollow victory than getting Microsoft to change 1 single line of code.

More worryingly for MS, a real feeling in the market has taken hold that it has lost whatever innovative direction it might have had and just has nothing to offer when it comes to competing with Apple's brilliantly realised consumer offerings and Google's complete dominance of the Internet – and increasing office productivity tools. Microsoft is rapidly being painted into a corner – with no real idea of how to get out.
in the market has taken hold that it has lost whatever innovative direction it might have had and just has nothing to offer when it comes to competing with Apple's brilliantly realised consumer offerings and Google's complete dominance of the Internet – and increasing office productivity tools. Microsoft is rapidly being painted into a corner – with no real idea of how to get out.

http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,1000000567,10005965o-2000331759b,00.htm

[The Avon Lady]

This is more about the EU's anti-monopoly court showering itself with a hollow victory than getting Microsoft to change 1 single line of code.

More worryingly for MS, a real feeling in the market has taken hold that it has lost whatever innovative direction it might have had and just has nothing to offer when it comes to competing with Apple's brilliantly realised consumer offerings and Google's complete dominance of the Internet – and increasing office productivity tools. Microsoft is rapidly being painted into a corner – with no real idea of how to get out.
in the market has taken hold that it has lost whatever innovative direction it might have had and just has nothing to offer when it comes to competing with Apple's brilliantly realised consumer offerings and Google's complete dominance of the Internet – and increasing office productivity tools. Microsoft is rapidly being painted into a corner – with no real idea of how to get out.

http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,1000000567,10005965o-2000331759b,00.htm
The really funny thing is that those comments should be grounds to dismiss the EU's case against MS. Not innovative? Can't compete? Losing dominance?

Which was precisely my point.

[DeepIron]

This is more about the EU's anti-monopoly court showering itself with a hollow victory than getting Microsoft to change 1 single line of code.

Bully for them I say! The EU was able to do something that US courts were not... Frankly, M$ is so much of a juggernaut that this will barely slow them down... BUT... It does create a precedent... :up:

[The WosMan]

This is more about the EU's anti-monopoly court showering itself with a hollow victory than getting Microsoft to change 1 single line of code.

More worryingly for MS, a real feeling in the market has taken hold that it has lost whatever innovative direction it might have had and just has nothing to offer when it comes to competing with Apple's brilliantly realised consumer offerings and Google's complete dominance of the Internet – and increasing office productivity tools. Microsoft is rapidly being painted into a corner – with no real idea of how to get out.
in the market has taken hold that it has lost whatever innovative direction it might have had and just has nothing to offer when it comes to competing with Apple's brilliantly realised consumer offerings and Google's complete dominance of the Internet – and increasing office productivity tools. Microsoft is rapidly being painted into a corner – with no real idea of how to get out.

http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,1000000567,10005965o-2000331759b,00.htm
The really funny thing is that those comments should be grounds to dismiss the EU's case against MS. Not innovative? Can't compete? Losing dominance?

Which was precisely my point.

HAHA, I like you.

[Letum]

Jolly good!
A modest victory and perhaps just a moral one, but a hard won one never the less.

It is good to see the EU now has the confidence to tussle with large, foreign market forces.

[Skybird]

Most of us complaining about windows have just felt the bad side of the de facto monopole Windows has on the market for OS. Since nobody in my thread on the disputed technology of certain server protocol formats ( http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=122197 )answered and was willing or able to discuss the specific details, and since i also did not read anything making these critcisms appear as invalid, I strongly tend to welcome this step by the EU in an attempt to brake up a monopole that had caused substantial damage and serious security issues in PC and internet technology.

The criticism coming from the US government trying to support it's protegee (last but not least tax-wise), saying that the opposite ruling by US legislation protects concumer interests and competition - by defending the de facto monopole of MS, is something I only can laugh out loud about, that queer and obviously unlogical it is.

So yes, I am glad that MS received a masisve slap, and I hope that more slaps will follow if Ms still does not comply, as many slaps needed until MS' monopole is broken. In the interest of my PC experience. Of yours. Of ours, both in America and Europe. We even can even hope, maybe, that in the future Windows versions will be created that are less obedient to bunker-mentality and control-mania (drm) and delivering eye candy at the price of increasing hardware demands, instead getting a safer, more economic, more slim-designed windows that focusses on the essentials, and is as less hardware-demanding as possible. From what I see, Vista is the exact opposite of all this. But for this, the pressure on Microsoft, as created by the market, probabaly is still not great enough. Their is no alterntaive if you want to do much gaming, and thats why Ms does not care to give us eht ewindows that consummers want- but enforces the Windows on us that Microsoft wants to defend it's monopole.

Monopoles never are good for quality and prices, and never serve anyone - except the monopole-holder.

Now I would like to see them cracking up the monopoles of energy suppliers for private households in Germany. Again, exploding costs and massive abuse here comes from the few great ones creating massive monopoles, excluding the many small ones and preventing consummer.-frienely competition.

[The WosMan]

Being a PC user for many years, I have a passionate dislike for M$ as I know I have to do more work than a MAC user to keep my computer running well. I also hate Vista and refuse to put that bloated POS anywhere near my computer.

At the same time I have a bias against the EU, it's courts, and I don't like them telling US companies what to do so I am caught between interests here.

I personally believe that M$ have really turned a lot of people against them with Vista and if we let the MARKET deal with things they will lose their share anyways despite their monopoly. One thing is for certain, not only did they tick of their consumers but they also ticked off video game developers and hardware developers like Nvidia and Creative. What they need is a class action lawsuit from all of these developers and customers of their product.

If they don't straighten that garbage out I have a feeling more and more people will be buying MAC and trying out Linux.

[Prof]

This decision is ridiculous. From what I've read, the main complaint was that including Windows Media Player and Internet Explorer as part of the Windows XP/Vista package was anti-competition. What nonsense!

There's absolutely nothing to stop users from deleting WMP or IE and using whichever media player/browser they choose.

Microsoft don't come tremendously high on my list of favourite companies, but this ruling is a joke. Microsoft should pull all their products from the European market and enjoy the chaos.

Will we next see the EU condemn apple for forcing iPod users to use iTunes? Somehow, I doubt it.

[Skybird]

This decision is ridiculous. From what I've read, the main complaint was that including Windows Media Player and Internet Explorer as part of the Windows XP/Vista package was anti-competition.

No, too simple, what you say is only part of the issue. Read this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6994631.stm

[bradclark1]

I know I have to do more work than a MAC user to keep my computer running well.
Sure it's not that you have a crappy system? Unless you are running Win98 of course. Just asking as I don't have to do squat on my laptop or desktop except turn it on or off.

[The Avon Lady]

This decision is ridiculous. From what I've read, the main complaint was that including Windows Media Player and Internet Explorer as part of the Windows XP/Vista package was anti-competition. What nonsense!

There's absolutely nothing to stop users from deleting WMP or IE and using whichever media player/browser they choose.

Microsoft don't come tremendously high on my list of favourite companies, but this ruling is a joke. Microsoft should pull all their products from the European market and enjoy the chaos.

Will we next see the EU condemn apple for forcing iPod users to use iTunes? Somehow, I doubt it.
Precisely! :yep:

Apply such jurisdiction equivalently and without prejudice to every similar business scenario in Europe and watch the public backlash. But it won't happen of course, because the level of the court's biases is demonstrated in miniature by several of the posts here.

It's one thing to wish the worst on a company you dislike. It's quite another to get a legal system to do the dirty work for you.

[Skybird]

Being a PC user for many years, I have a passionate dislike for M$ as I know I have to do more work than a MAC user to keep my computer running well. I also hate Vista and refuse to put that bloated POS anywhere near my computer.

At the same time I have a bias against the EU, it's courts, and I don't like them telling US companies what to do so I am caught between interests here.

I personally believe that M$ have really turned a lot of people against them with Vista and if we let the MARKET deal with things they will lose their share anyways despite their monopoly. One thing is for certain, not only did they tick of their consumers but they also ticked off video game developers and hardware developers like Nvidia and Creative. What they need is a class action lawsuit from all of these developers and customers of their product.

If they don't straighten that garbage out I have a feeling more and more people will be buying MAC and trying out Linux.

the market is only taking care of it, like you put it, if the market does not get protected and distorted by defacto monopoles. But MS OS has a market share of 95%. And how much the market limits MS you see in the many years Mac and Linux try to brake that monopole. but how man companies, and more important: how many private consummers, and most important: how many players run Linux as Os for their games? not too many, to put it mildly. and why? Because games get developed for windows, since Windows has 95% market share, and only technic freaks are able to turn some games - SOME games - into Linux compatible games.

It is like in the 80s, when Video-2000 appeared. at that time of introduction, picture quality was superior to that of VHS of that time, and you had cheaper and better cassette system. But VHS2000 died soon, because VHS alraedy dominated the market for video formats by owning 75% of it. the market failed, and was not able to take care of this defacto monopole for one format. Whcih in a way this time was a good thing. Else we would still have had half a dozen different video formats in the nineties. Also, VHS quality improved.

But this does not compare to Windows, here it would be very desirable to have software developed that is comapatible for Widnows-rivals as well. That this is not much done is because economically it does not pay off for developers - due to the monopole situation on the market. If you devbelope a game for Linux, it will be sold far less often than if you develope it for windows. If you develope it for both, it may see an increase in costs that in economical calculations does not pay off by increased gains to sell it to one additional Linux user - when having sold it to 19 windows users.

we need a strong alternative to Windows that is compatible for the same software that currently depends on windows. We will not get that alternative as long as MS is allowed to control the market.

[DeepIron]

I personally believe that M$ have really turned a lot of people against them with Vista and if we let the MARKET deal with things they will lose their share anyways despite their monopoly.
Not going to happen 'bro... Why? Because if you're a large PC manufacturer, you're pretty much forced to load an M$ OS and that will be Vista. Yes, I know that Dell still offers XP on a small select portion of their line, and they also offer LINUX on a an even smaller number of units.. But if you're buying a new box, it'll have Vista on it.

It's the same old saw, M$ has had such dominence in the marketsplace for so long that it will take years (decades?) before their marketshare is seriously diminished...

The other sad fact fact is that LINUX, or any other *NIX like system with the exception of Apple, are not in position to fill any vacuum that might exist should M$ sales decline.

After 20 years in the IT business, I've seen this same M$/marketshare argument many, many times. Nothing has changed...

But I'm still chagrined to see Redmond get slapped...

[Zayphod]

One think I'd like to point out is that while everyone says "Hey, use a REAL OS, like Linux" there aren't a lot of games that run really well under that OS. Also, there's not a ton of people out there that know anything about Linux, let alone how to make games run under it.

Now, I know about WINE and such, but let's face it: until game manufacturers start making them for "other" OS's, we're pretty much stuck with Winbloz.

How about we start putting pressure on game manufacturing companies to start making them for MAC's and Linux as well? Won't happen? Then we're stuck with the default OS, which seems to help only Bill Gates.

It would be interesting, as someone pointed out in another posting in this thread, to see what would happen if M$ pulled out of Europe due to the ruling here, wouldn't it?

My guess is that all of Europe would have to either give in to what M$ wants/does, or there's be a huge surge in Linux sales. That might actually make game manufactuerers start adding Linux versions of their games, however, so it might not be such a bad idea for M$ to pull out (silver lining, and all that).

On another note, no Vista on my PC until there is no other alternative to it, i.e., when games say "Requirements: Vista or later", THEN, and only then will Vista see the light of my CRT.