Torpedo Spreads

[alunatic]

I let the computer do my torpedo calculations becasue I'm just plain crap at them and I probably couldnt hit the empire state building if it was lying on its side with a torpedo. I'm using the natural sinkin mod and torpedos that hit in the same place dont do anything so how can I make them not hit in the same place?!? I've tried torpedo spreads but they dont seem to work but I'm probably doing them wrong. So any help would be nice. Thanks.

[hyperion2206]

I let the computer do my torpedo calculations becasue I'm just plain crap at them and I probably couldnt hit the empire state building if it was lying on its side with a torpedo. I'm using the natural sinkin mod and torpedos that hit in the same place dont do anything so how can I make them not hit in the same place?!? I've tried torpedo spreads but they dont seem to work but I'm probably doing them wrong. So any help would be nice. Thanks.

US subs didn't have a spread setting like the German subs, you have to spread them manually by firing the torpedos at different parts of the ship. E.g. point the periscope at the bow and fire a torpedo, then you point the periscope at the center of the ship and fire a torpedo etc.

[PaulPosition]

US subs didn't have a spread setting like the German subs, you have to spread them manually by firing the torpedos at different parts of the ship. E.g. point the periscope at the bow and fire a torpedo, then you point the periscope at the center of the ship and fire a torpedo etc.
Wh... What?!

First a disclaimer : what you say certainly does work on automatic settings. You don't need to 'lock' the target indeed and could aim where ever you want on the boat's silouhette.

Okay, that's cleared. Now the question...

So that spread dial on the TDC affecting my torpedo's expected path on the attack map is just a clever ploy by some unamerican sabotageur to make me miss shots?

Or perhaps you have it kind of wrong and the germans had some amazing device to link periscope bearing to torps' gyro while the americans had to fiddle with the spread setting dial instead?

[alunatic]

Oh ok. Thanks alot.

[tater]

American subs fired spreads all the time. The skipper had this magical thing called "junior officers and crew." He'd order a spread, and a spread happened. How doesn't really matter, does it? :)

That the game lacks the ability to order one is a kind of not seeing the forest for the trees error that is endemic to the "full realism" vs "full auto" nature of SH4. We really lack any sense of being the skipper. I would love to take bearing and range, and only then have a position plotted on my map for me. When I take a 2d one, my crew would draw a line between them, and write down the speed. That sort of thing. Ditto with a spread.

One difference (possibly, I never played SH3) might be the spacing in time of the fish. US torpedoes (mk14s, anyway) were fired at 8-10 second intervals to avoid codetonation of the fish. Other than that, all a real captain had to do was order a spread, his crew worked the dials to make it happen.

tater

[John Channing]

US subs didn't have a spread setting like the German subs, you have to spread them manually by firing the torpedos at different parts of the ship. E.g. point the periscope at the bow and fire a torpedo, then you point the periscope at the center of the ship and fire a torpedo etc.
Wh... What?!

First a disclaimer : what you say certainly does work on automatic settings. You don't need to 'lock' the target indeed and could aim where ever you want on the boat's silouhette.

Okay, that's cleared. Now the question...

So that spread dial on the TDC affecting my torpedo's expected path on the attack map is just a clever ploy by some unamerican sabotageur to make me miss shots?

Or perhaps you have it kind of wrong and the germans had some amazing device to link periscope bearing to torps' gyro while the americans had to fiddle with the spread setting dial instead?

No... they work just fine. Just a misunderstanding.

JCC

[Sailor Steve]

One difference (possibly, I never played SH3) might be the spacing in time of the fish. US torpedoes (mk14s, anyway) were fired at 8-10 second intervals to avoid codetonation of the fish. Other than that, all a real captain had to do was order a spread, his crew worked the dials to make it happen.

tater
The game SH3 has a switch that lets you select tubes for firing a salvo. This is historically correct; someone showed a photo of the real thing here awhile ago. It's my understanding that the spread angles were entered by the crew, just like on American boats. The game SH3 fires all torpedoes of a salvo at the same time. This is NOT correct; they would have interfered badly with each other. They were also fired at 5-10 second intervals. What is still not clear is whether the 'Salvo' switch fired them automatically, or it just told the torpedo crew which tubes to fire.

In either case, the Americans did indeed enter the spread angle into the TDC, and then they just fired the fish, albeit one at a time.

[seaniam81]

Or you could do it the way the Wahoo did it with a constant bearing...

Have your solution set and once the part of the ship passes your bearing line fire another torpedo...
works just fine for me.

[XLjedi]

Or you could do it the way the Wahoo did it with a constant bearing...

Have your solution set and once the part of the ship passes your bearing line fire another torpedo...
works just fine for me.

Yep, the O'Kane Method (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=627351&postcount=134) :up:

[Roger Dodger]

I always found it annoying that the speed, contact/magnetic exploder and depth are set individually, while the gyro angle is set globally (set for one sets for all).

BTW a 1 degree gyro angle makes a mighty big difference when the target is over 1000 yards/meters away unless its a really big ship. Better to set all at 0 degrees and fire when the periscope reticle is pointing at the desired spot. The only time I use other gyro settings is when I'm firing at the stern of a zig-zagging freighter (1-left, 0, 1 right)

[tater]

I use the gyro angle offset when I shoot with the PK turned on and want a spread. Overlapping targets with escorts sniffing around me. final bearing, down scope, watch the range, then shoot.

[cmdrk]

BTW a 1 degree gyro angle makes a mighty big difference when the target is over 1000 yards/meters away unless its a really big ship. Better to set all at 0 degrees and fire when the periscope reticle is pointing at the desired spot. The only time I use other gyro settings is when I'm firing at the stern of a zig-zagging freighter (1-left, 0, 1 right)

True. I used the navigation map to lay down spread lines to see the width of the spreads at different ranges. Not a real accurate way, but good enough to get a rule of thumb.
Your (1-left, 0, 1-right) would be roughly 100 yds wide at 1000 yds range. A (2-left, 0, 2-right) would be about 200 yds wide at 1000 yds. And at 500 yds range the (1-left, 0, 1-right) would be 50 yds wide.

[XLjedi]

True. I used the navigation map to lay down spread lines to see the width of the spreads at different ranges. Not a real accurate way, but good enough to get a rule of thumb.
Your (1-left, 0, 1-right) would be roughly 100 yds wide at 1000 yds range. A (2-left, 0, 2-right) would be about 200 yds wide at 1000 yds. And at 500 yds range the (1-left, 0, 1-right) would be 50 yds wide.

I did a similar analysis (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=635004&postcount=41) and came up with a 2° spread to be the best way to insure at least one hit inside of 1500m... and often at least two will make contact.

[SteamWake]

Just dont forget to change the offset angle when you switch tubes.

Somehow its a global setting and must be adjusted as each tube is selected. Otherwise if you set a 5 degree offset on the first shot all subsiquent shots will be at 5 degree offset unless changed.

I always wished this could be 'preset' on a tube by tube basis.

[XLjedi]

Just dont forget to change the offset angle when you switch tubes.

Somehow its a global setting and must be adjusted as each tube is selected. Otherwise if you set a 5 degree offset on the first shot all subsiquent shots will be at 5 degree offset unless changed.

I always wished this could be 'preset' on a tube by tube basis.

...that right there would've been the answer to every, "How do I setup to fire a spread?" question!

[switch.dota]

True. I used the navigation map to lay down spread lines to see the width of the spreads at different ranges. Not a real accurate way, but good enough to get a rule of thumb.
Your (1-left, 0, 1-right) would be roughly 100 yds wide at 1000 yds range. A (2-left, 0, 2-right) would be about 200 yds wide at 1000 yds. And at 500 yds range the (1-left, 0, 1-right) would be 50 yds wide.
I did a similar analysis (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=635004&postcount=41) and came up with a 2° spread to be the best way to insure at least one hit inside of 1500m... and often at least two will make contact.
On small vessels, like anything below 5k tons (TM1.6) or 7k tons (stock), you're better off with 1-1,5 spread angle. Using 2' I was able to MISS by inches.

[XLjedi]

True. I used the navigation map to lay down spread lines to see the width of the spreads at different ranges. Not a real accurate way, but good enough to get a rule of thumb.
Your (1-left, 0, 1-right) would be roughly 100 yds wide at 1000 yds range. A (2-left, 0, 2-right) would be about 200 yds wide at 1000 yds. And at 500 yds range the (1-left, 0, 1-right) would be 50 yds wide.
I did a similar analysis (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=635004&postcount=41) and came up with a 2° spread to be the best way to insure at least one hit inside of 1500m... and often at least two will make contact.
On small vessels, like anything below 5k tons (TM1.6) or 7k tons (stock), you're better off with 1-1,5 spread angle. Using 2' I was able to MISS by inches.

What? You mean the small ship happened to time it perfectly and managed to just squeeze itself in-between the spread? If I'm off a few inches both front and back, I'd just chalk that one up to, "He managed to beat the odds this time."

If it's a small ship you only need one of the three to hit right? I'm looking for a spread where it's most likely for 1 in 3 to hit. Granted, that does introduce the possibility that you could miss but it's gotta be a pretty low probability.

If I fire a 3 spread at a small target and 2 of the 3 hit. To me, that means my spread wasn't large enough. On a larger target if 2 of the 3 hit I'm OK with that, if all 3 hit, it was too narrow of a spread.

If your experience shows that you tend to get 1 hit out of a 3 spread at 1° against a small target at 1500m or less then I can't argue against that... my experience using a 1° spread has been that it's not really enough of a spread.

[seaniam81]

Theres a topic around here that tells you what the vertical hash marks on the scope told you. I think at low power each mark is 1º and in high power is .25º

[Frederf]

The torpedo spread question becomes even more fun when you learn about how many types of spreads there are. Constant bearing, diverging, parallel, single aimpoint, etc. There's a nifty period real submariners manual about it all.

When you look up the SOP told to the skippers of the time you see that 2-3 was minimum fired and they went for "80% coverage minimum" which means the spread is 80% of the length of the target at range. 100% or 150% were probably as, if not more, common.

Also there is an "optimimum torpedo track angle" that is greater than 90 degrees. It's a big chart based on speeds and such but they are all close to 100-110 degrees Ta.

The greater issue with the game is how it doesn't really place you as the Subarmine Captain but instead as Shiva-like character pushing all the buttons in the sub nearly alone. A dialogue box about how you want your torpedo officer to execute the shot would be more realistic and lower your workload during the attack.

[Powerthighs]

On small vessels, like anything below 5k tons (TM1.6) or 7k tons (stock), you're better off with 1-1,5 spread angle. Using 2' I was able to MISS by inches.

All of this really depends on how much confidence you have in your solution. If it's really good, you only need to spread to hit different parts of the ship. If it's no so good (or longer range), a wider spread means perhaps less total hits but increases the odds of at least one.

[Rockin Robbins]

you're better off with 1-1,5 spread angle. Using 2' I was able to MISS by inches.
There are SO many ways to miss by inches. I'm still researching them all.:damn:

I've been playing with leaving the PK off, inputting the target speed and setting up for a 90º shot. Then I can point the periscope at the desired impact point, hit the send bearing/range button and shoot. Don't lock the target but keep the periscope stationary. Your first shot should be the furthest toward the bow of the target. Then as the juicy parts of the ship pass the aiming point, shoot as necessary to get your spread. No misses that way unless your torps are defective. It also automatically spaces out your shots for historical accuracy.:know:

[SteamWake]

you're better off with 1-1,5 spread angle. Using 2' I was able to MISS by inches.

There are SO many ways to miss by inches. I'm still researching them all.:damn:

I've been playing with leaving the PK off, inputting the target speed and setting up for a 90º shot. Then I can point the periscope at the desired impact point, hit the send bearing/range button and shoot. Don't lock the target but keep the periscope stationary. Your first shot should be the furthest toward the bow of the target. Then as the good parts of the ship pass the aiming point, shoot as necessary to get your spread. No misses that way unless your torps are defective. It also automatically spaces out your shots for historical accuracy.:know:

Except for those time you forget to select the next tube AND open its doors :rotfl:

[Rockin Robbins]

you're better off with 1-1,5 spread angle. Using 2' I was able to MISS by inches.
There are SO many ways to miss by inches. I'm still researching them all.:damn:

I've been playing with leaving the PK off, inputting the target speed and setting up for a 90º shot. Then I can point the periscope at the desired impact point, hit the send bearing/range button and shoot. Don't lock the target but keep the periscope stationary. Your first shot should be the furthest toward the bow of the target. Then as the good parts of the ship pass the aiming point, shoot as necessary to get your spread. No misses that way unless your torps are defective. It also automatically spaces out your shots for historical accuracy.:know:
Except for those time you forget to select the next tube AND open its doors :rotfl:

Then you miss by inches for even MORE historical accuracy! :up:

[captiandon]

I had problems understanding the tdc myself but I muddled thru for a few shots then i figured it out. The target speed is just a guess you just have to estimate what his speed is. Angle is an estimation as well and will take time to get proficient at guessing. However distance is just a matter if identification. I like to get to a near enough range that I can identify accurately what it is that I am shooting at. However at that range its also an more accurate shot with a torpedo as well. I got a Large split freighter within 2000 and was able to put all three fish I fired into him. and knocked out his propulsion with the first shot. some of it has to do with luck but I would rather be lucky then good. I had a destroyer that was in a constant turn and I fired on him hoping to get him in the nearest of his turn well I missed but he turned back into the fishes path and got hit by it anyway. It was a lucky shot and sunk him. I have about the Germans average of about 1 hit with every 4 torpedoes fired. Sometimes I have a hit rate of 1 out of 2. For some reason I have had a good run of luck with torpedoes not being duds. I must be missing with the duds. As far as firing a spread I dont like to waste that many torpedoes. I would rather be sure that my fish is going to hit and take the time to try or else I will take them out with the deck gun. For some reason the TDC only seems to work with the Attack Periscope as I have tried with the attack station and the observation scope and it doesn't seem to register what way they are pointed. so be sure your using the Attack scope with the TDC.

[Rockin Robbins]

Where do I start? I can start by asking any new captains not to take captaindon's advice without testing his conclusions yourself. That's a nice way of saying they're not true. Let us begin.

......The target speed is just a guess you just have to estimate what his speed is. Wow! There are a number of ways to find speed with plenty of accuracy without guessing. Using the nomograph is great. You just use your pencil on the chart, mark a start point, hit the stopwatch and mark his position at the end of any time period you take a fancy to, the longer the time period the more accurate your speed. Anything over 3 minutes is good enough. Draw a line across the nomograph connecting the time interval with the distance. Read off the speed in that column. Or make a point of always using 3 or 6 minutes. 6 minutes is 1/10 of an hour, right? So measure the distance covered in 6 minutes, multiply by 10 and that's your miles or kilometers per hour. You can just multiply by 20 for 3 minutes. No guessing necessary or desirable.

Angle is an estimation as well and.... Again, that's what the chart is for. You've just plotted two points for your target. Connect them and extend the line. That's the target's course. Now take the protractor, click first on the course line ahead of the target, again click on the target itself and lastly click on your submarine. Right in the angle itself, read the number of degrees. That's your angle on the bow. No guessing is necessary or desirable.

I have about the Germans average of about 1 hit with every 4 torpedoes fired. Actually the Germans were a lot better than that. They averaged one ship SUNK for every 4 torpedoes fired. Imagine that! Wow.

As far as firing a spread I dont like to waste that many torpedoes. I hate to waste torpedoes. But when you're using WernerSobe's Natural Sinking Mechanics, you must put at least two holes in separate compartments of a ship to sink it. So a spread is not just to ensure a hit, but to ensure enough widely enough separated hits to sink your target. My goal is an attack inside of 800 yards and a spread of 1½º, two torps, none in the center. I'm trying to hit 1/4 of the way from the bow and 1/4 of the way from the stern if my aim is perfect. Aim is seldom perfect. :rotfl: Thus the third torpedo sometimes. It all depends on my confidence in my solution.

For some reason the TDC only seems to work with the Attack Periscope as I have tried with the attack station and the observation scope and it doesn't seem to register what way they are pointed. so be sure your using the Attack scope with the TDC. Ouch! This is plain wrong. I use the observation scope exclusively at night, although the game doesn't properly model the brightness difference between the attack and observation scopes. I haven't had any problems at all and neither has anyone else ever reported a problem with that. I'd suggest uninstalling SH4 (you can keep your savegames when you do this) and reinstallation to see if it fixes the problem. Make sure you reapply the patch. I forgot to do that last time and SH4 is not nice unpatched! I'll bet your situation is fixed then.

If you substitute careful setup, good strategy and measurement for guessing, there is no reason why you can't complete a cruise with four misses or less. When you do miss, you'll know why just about every time. If it's worth taking the shot it's worth taking the care to hit it.:arrgh!:

[captiandon]

Alot of that is fine if your attacking a target that is alone. However I most of the time am attacking from within a convoy. My Guess work seems to be just fine when a destroyer is trying to sink me as it is most of the time I am trying to sink the destroyer, and there is most of the time other destroyers around so I am trying to do it quickly. I have found that the magnetic Influance does work part of the time so I always try to aim as deep as the draft of the vessel allows me to. one can sink a ship with a single torpedo if you break its Keel. However I am always aiming for eather the Engine rooms or the screws and rudder. I have really gotten good at casuing a destroyer to go dead in the water. If and when I do that I can for a little bit shift my focus on another destroyer then return to sink the first one when I can. Of course my tactics are very aggressive and I tend to come home with a damaged boat alot. However My tactics work for me. However if you are the kind that will only attack single targets thats fine. it gives you more tme to compute angle and speed. I never excelled in Math so guessing has been more effective for me. Sure I use more then one torpedo on most targets but I fire with the same solution for the second as I did for the first. When the first torpedo hits the ship will eather slow down or turn, or maby both which most of the times causes the second torpedo to hit farther back. About 50% of my hits are pure luck but as the saying goes I would rather be lucky then good.
Just like a sinking today. I was in a Rain Storm and had surfaced, I thought that I had a Tanker in my sights with the Twin 20mm I poured 4 clips into it and it sank. Turned out it was the destroyer that was trying to sink me and I had him at very close range.

[captiandon]

No there Rockin Robbins I have no problem with your way of attacking targets. I dont mean to upset you if you are. I may at times be alittle on the ignorant side of the arguement :) but we each have a way of doing things as each Captain did in war time. I rather like reading how others go about approching this game. It opens other options as I have continued to improve the way I carry out attacks against other ships by reading whats being said here. If you watched the Movie in Harms Way Admril Torrie was sent in as Nimitz's "Grant" I am like the Rock in that movie. Not very carefull in my approch but a kinda Commander that dosnt like to run from a fight. I am not saying that any other way is wrong its just my way. If I want to sink a Destroyer I aim to get his attention. I get him charging twards me and when he is close enough behind me I fire a torpedo at him point blank range just far enough for the torpedo to arm. As Captain Hull said, "Dont fire till you see the whites of there eyes." Nothing like the thrill of having a Destroyer trying to run you down as I am thinking "Let him Charge into his own distruction." A good quote from the Captain of the Klingon Bird of Prey Pagh in Star Trek TNG.

[XLjedi]

I've been playing with leaving the PK off, inputting the target speed and setting up for a 90º shot. Then I can point the periscope at the desired impact point, hit the send bearing/range button and shoot. Don't lock the target but keep the periscope stationary. Your first shot should be the furthest toward the bow of the target. Then as the juicy parts of the ship pass the aiming point, shoot as necessary to get your spread. No misses that way unless your torps are defective. It also automatically spaces out your shots for historical accuracy.:know:

Sounds like you've abandoned the tables then?

A good choice I think... :yep:

[Rockin Robbins]

No there Rockin Robbins I have no problem with your way of attacking targets. I dont mean to upset you if you are.
No chance! I'm having fun here learning how everyone handles their boats. I tend to be a little bit too precise and am learning that good attack procedures allow for error. On the cruise I just finished I had no misses until the last five shots. I missed four of them. :know: Wanted the target too bad to do the attack right.:rotfl:He was the survivor of a two ship convoy running away after I tagged his buddy. Got him too, after missing a couple of shots by inches! Exciting stuff.

An interesting thing I learned was the concept of significant figures: that numbers aren't precise values. "1.5 (1,5 for those across the pond) is not precisely 1 and a half, but the set of all numbers between 1 and 2. 1.55 is all the numbers between 1.5 and 1.6. The power of 10 that is used is a statement as to how accurate your measurement can be. Measuring with a ruler that only measures down to millimeters and specifying a distance of 1.236 mm does not work, as the device only measures to the nearest millimeter. Therefore your units should only be in whole millimeters with no decimal places (actually using the nearest .5 millimeter would be valid so long as you only use .5 if you use a decimal. That way 1.5 would mean "somewhere between 1 and 2"). I tend to be more precise than the variables in the setup process allow, wasting the apparent precision of my technique. I don't know if I explained that adequately. A lot of the precision in my technique can only be justified by my love of precision. Better?:lol:

Sounds like you've abandoned the tables then?

A good choice I think... :yep:
At this point I'm playing with it. And it makes sense because the chart is built into the TDC. It is actually a little easier than using the chart and I don't make the mistake of looking in the slow column for my fast torpedoes. But in general I like to have my bag of tricks as full as possible with everybody's techniques. That way I can size up my situation and choose the tactic that will work right now.:arrgh!:

[NefariousKoel]

I've been using the same spread tactic lately except:

I leave the PK on right up until I'm ready to shoot. If it's on for a bit, I don't have to worry about keeping the range estimate up to date. When ready to shoot I unlock the PK - point ahead of the bow - resend range at that point - and fire as each part passes.

Works beautifully.:arrgh!:

[Rockin Robbins]

I've been using the same spread tactic lately except:

I leave the PK on right up until I'm ready to shoot. If it's on for a bit, I don't have to worry about keeping the range estimate up to date. When ready to shoot I unlock the PK - point ahead of the bow - resend range at that point - and fire as each part passes.

Works beautifully.:arrgh!:
I'm assuming you're responding by my post (could be wrong:ping:). Your idea works, but the whole reason to attack at a 90º intersecting (within +-15º of that) course is that measuring range is no longer necessary. Therefore, you can enter your (or my:p) shoe size as the range and hit the target every time. The O'Kane strategy is to remove every possible step from the setup process. What little you are left with can then be concentrated upon and executed flawlessly. All I have to do is set up my course roughly at right angles to the target, find the target's speed, input that into the TDC, set AOB at 90º port or starboard (I'm not too swift, but I can tell port from starboard 50% of the time!:know:), get close and shoot. All these steps can be done well before I am near the target. If ships are in a line, I can switch targets and sink them quickly without extra work.

I don't have to worry about what kind of ship it is. I don't have to worry about how far away it is. I don't have to measure angle on the bow. I never have to turn on the PK (button pushing is just too tedius:lol:). And I don't need a chart to tell me how much to lead the target. That eliminates over half the variables in setting up an attack. As errors are cumulative over the number of necessary steps to achieving a solution, this method tends to hit more targets.

That doesn't mean it can be used all the time, any more than a great screwdriver can be used on a hex-head screw. It only means that given the proper set of circumstances this is an excellent attack strategy for the above reasons of achieving simplicity, and the ability to set up the attack at a time of relative leisure, not in the heat of combat.

I'm considering removing the PK and installing a wine cellar.:sunny:

[Rockin Robbins]

I want to thank all you captains for attending today's seminar on the Dick O'Kane attack method. I'm really honored to be the one standing up here addressing the finest submarine tacticians in the United States Navy. Many of you guys could be up here doing a better job than I and I have learned something important that might save the skins of my crew and myself from each of you. So don't get any bright ideas that I'm a holier than thou Captain Perfect. I'm just returning the favor y'all have done me. OK?

Aaronblood! Keep it down back there! I don't mind if you play cards, but not there, OK?

OK, Captain donut, first slide please...
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Floodeddownwaitingtargetinbkgrnd.jpg
Here's the Redfin. We've acquired a target on course 95º, seven knots at a distance of 8 nm. Immediately upon detection, we started refining his course and measuring the speed using the radar. Well before he's within 5 nm we have already set the angle on the bow to 90º starboard and speed to 7 kt. Those won't change unless the target changes speed. In the slide, he's within 5 nm and we've assumed a flooded down condition to continue to use the radar undetected. Normally we'd be at radar depth, but it's a little rough tonight and the antenna kept getting washed out.

I want y'all to remember the strengths of the Dick O'Kane attack method. You do not take time misidentifying the target. You do not fiddle with the stadimeter trying to measure the wrong range. You do not forget to engage the PK and miss your target because we're not using it. Keep the damn thing off.

Donut, next slide please...
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/SH4Img20-9-2007_2222.19_671.jpg
Here's our initial test of our sighting. I've pointed the periscope at zero degrees and punched the send range/bearing button. We're looking at the attack screen, F6 if you use Trigger Maru. You can see the projected torpedo track just about to bearing 9º. The target is coming from the left, so our lead is already built in. So all settings check good. Captain, next slide please...
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Initialsetup.jpg
We're continuing to track the target on radar. Here's the target at about 4 nm distance. You can see his course line (the track) and you can see my position at right angles to the track 800 yards off. You can read the range on the readout there. As we are in our desired position, we've throttled back to ½ kt. We'll monitor the target for deviations in course and speed. Question gutted? You may go to the bathroom after the presentation. Captain donut, next slide, please.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/SH4Img20-9-2007_2223.31_218.jpg
We've gone to periscope depth. He's very close now, on bearing 324º. Here's the procedure. We can fire any time between bearing 345º and 15º. We'll do it pretty close to zero for best accuracy. With the target unlocked we'll sight ahead of the target by about 1/3 of its length and hit the bearing/range send button (make a note to have the TDC already set with that available ahead of time). Without touching the aiming of the periscope and with target still unlocked, we'll just send a couple of friendly fish his way as juicy parts of the target pass the crosshairs. Ready?

Hey, I noticed the card game stopped back there! Good show guys! Next slide please, donut...
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Fire1.jpg
Fire one! We're aiming just after the first crane. Next...
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Fire2.jpg
Fire two! Captains, notice no spread is necessary here in the normal way of thinking about a spread. Every shot is aimed at a specific part of the target. One shot, one hit is the motto of the Redfin and it can be yours too. I'm not about to claim we have no misses. If you don't have misses you're not taking enough shots and you're losing tonnage. But we're damn proud of the Redfin and I'm damn proud of my crew. I get to stand up here because of their sacrifice and dedication. OK, let's see how we did. Captain donut, next slide...
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Hit1.jpg
Hit number one! We're looking at the attack map. Notice that both torpedoes are taking the exact same track to the target. You can actually see the second torpedo out about 325 yards on its way to the target. Their aiming points are different only because of the target's speed. You can see from the plot that we've hit near the bow of the target and by the inset you can see that our impact point was within 5 yards of the aiming point. Pretty good shooting! Next slide donut...
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Hit2.jpg
Hit number two! You can see the target slowed down slightly because of a little water intake near the bow, causing our torpedo to hit a couple of yards toward the bow from where we aimed. But captains, this kind of precision is just not possible using conventional setup and inputting spread angles to the TDC. We're doing precise surgery on the enemy with the Dick O'Kane attack technique, keeping it simple to eliminate mistakes, getting damn close to our targets and building artificial reefs to do our part for the environment.

Now I know that this isn't the ONLY attack method that works, and I know even more than that that this one won't be the best to use all the time. This is only one more trick in our bags of tricks we use to defeat the enemy. Don't forget and stop using what you already know. Just try the Dick O'Kane attack method next time a good opportunity pops up. You'll be amazed at how stress-free, accurate and deadly to the Nips it is!

If there are no questions, or even if there are, let's talk about them or anything else in the officers' club. Dismissed! Thank you donut. Thank you aaronblood and Gutted, WernerSobe and most of all Neal Stevens for Subsim!

[NefariousKoel]

Robbins-

Yeah was responding to the "O'Kane" methods people use.

I, personally, don't like trying to set up a perfect 90 degree shot and sometimes it's just impossible. Using my method it works every time - all I need is an approach and practiced eye for AoB which comes with use. Sure, a few more buttons to push but it's trusty and the routine is the same every time I use it from whatever angle.

Just a personal preference.:smug:

[Rockin Robbins]

Robbins-

Yeah was responding to the "O'Kane" methods people use.

I, personally, don't like trying to set up a perfect 90 degree shot and sometimes it's just impossible. Using my method it works every time - all I need is an approach and practiced eye for AoB which comes with use. Sure, a few more buttons to push but it's trusty and the routine is the same every time I use it from whatever angle.

Just a personal preference.:smug:

Reference my second to last paragraph. I don't claim to have the single best technique out there. For my money the most fun you can have with your pants on is WernerSobe's sonar targeting technique. It appeals to my love of precision Hitting three fish of three shots on a ship you've never seen is like hittin' on Lana Turner. Wooooo! But I also pinged a destroyer and about met God that day. Warn't a lot of fun.

I use conventional targeting as taught by the US Navy too. Pretty good at it, and I use it whenever I can't ambush my target. But if I want em on the bottom and I have the time...

The more tools you have in that bag of tricks of yours the more dead Nips you can encourage. Personal preference isn't the point. The only thing that matters is right now where I and my target are, of everything I know, the stuff I love and the stuff I hate and all in between, what's most likely to put old Sorry Maru safely asleep in Davey Jones' locker tonight? :arrgh!: Arrrrrrr. This is war and it ain't pretty.;)

Hope we can team up on a convoy of fat juicy tankers together!

[Hobnail]

The problem being In Tmaru 1.6 that "perfect 90" shots inside 1000yds just yell Here I am Bungo Pete! to any leading escorts.

I'm finding that attacking almost on the 45 at around 2000yds and slaving away over a hot stadimeter means I'm getting good hit ratios and I can usually slip away without an escort getting an ashcan within cooee of the boat.

Of course against unprotected merchies why give them any chance? Shoot from 90
:lurk:

[XLjedi]

The problem being In Tmaru 1.6 that "perfect 90" shots inside 1000yds just yell Here I am Bungo Pete! to any leading escorts.

I'm finding that attacking almost on the 45 at around 2000yds and slaving away over a hot stadimeter means I'm getting good hit ratios and I can usually slip away without an escort getting an ashcan within cooee of the boat.

Of course against unprotected merchies why give them any chance? Shoot from 90
:lurk:


You can fire on a 45° angle and 2000yds out using almost the exact same method... You'd just point your crosshair at 45° or 315° to calibrate instead of 0°. Then you'd be firing when the ship is on the 60° or 300° radial.

In that case, I'd maybe also consider sharpening the AoB estimate from 90° to 75° for a little more accuracy at the greater distance (wouldn't hurt to use 75° in the above example either).

That should give you a nice square side impact from the 45° approach angle... Assuming of course the torpedo gyro is stearing true. That actually cuts a pretty cool path to the target if you like steamed fish.

Maybe that's what I should call it?
SH3 = Fast-90
SH4 = Fast-75

[Rockin Robbins]

(wouldn't hurt to use 75° in the above example either).
Actually, the correct angle on the bow my example would be 90-(360-bearing) = 90-360-348=78º but who's counting? :88):88) We don't allow no stinkin' math on our boat.:88):88)

[XLjedi]

Not trying to make it a math exercise...

Just trying to keep it as simple as your recommendation to enter 90, but adding accuracy at longer range. Assuming you like to fire on the 10-20° radial a 75 estimate will serve you better than 90. That's all I'm sayin...

But in all fairness you do make a point of noting that accuracy for the solution you presented is best when aiming down the 0° beam. ...and I do recall Morton liked to shoot when the target was slightly beyond 0°. Apparently they did some studies and it was deemed best.

For me, I know I always like to try to make square side impacts so firing around 15° just favors that.

[Rockin Robbins]

We're too perfectionist for our own good, and to make it worse, we like math. No hope for us at all.:down:

By the time we agree when to fire the target will be downrange in NefariousKoel's sights and he'll get the kill. :rotfl:

[joegrundman]

There is an interesting section on spreads in the submarine torpedo fire control manual, that includes a reasonably practical calculation that can performed quickly and in advance.

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/attack/index.htm

This means that your longitudinal (O'kane method) spreads or fan spreads can be programmed accurately with the torpedo settings and can therefore be used with the PK on.

Takes a bit of getting used to though...

It also includes charts showing optimum torpedo track angle for different torpedo and target speeds. In short, with a slow target and fast torp, the optimum aob to be presented at impact is about 100. At this angle the rate of change of deflection angle for errors in solution are at the miniumum

[joegrundman]

Further to optimum torpedo tracks

If you are shooting at a faster target, say a warship in a task force moving at 17kts, the optimum torpedo track angle (the angle at which the torp strikes the target) is about 115 with fast torps.

Using optimum angles is i find sub-optimal in certain conditions. It is important to bear in mind that in order to optimise error in range estimate, you want a gyro angle of as close to 000 as possible. This means that if it's very important that you minimise errors in your own solution you need to point your boat along this angle.

Playing SH3 i quickly found that this means that whereas an AOB of 90 position is good for both fore and aft tubes in a convoy attack, using an optimum course means that your fore and aft tubes would need different settings.

I haven't actually tested this in SH4 as i tend not to use an all tubes attack in sh4, and anyway i no longer use optimum courses against convoys because my solution is generally accurate enough not to need them.

However if i really don't have a great solution on the target, i do use optimum torpedo track angles. In particular, if i'm firing using passive sonar only approaches due to extremely poor visibilty or whatever, or if i'm firing at a task force at medium or longish range.

In other situations it's a detail that doesn't seem to yield great advantages

[Powerthighs]

The beauty is having a bunch of tricks from which to choose. Different situations favor different techniques. As I've explained to various people at various drunken parties, "using trigonometry to kill people is fun!"

[Rockin Robbins]

"using trigonometry to kill people is fun!"

That's is! It's all downhill from there! This is the official quote of the thread, no competitors need apply:rotfl:

Is Subsim great or what? Where else can this kind of brilliance be displayed and appreciated?