Photo Recon Missions - BLARG! I've had it!

[mookiemookie]

It seems like these are the friggin BANE OF MY EXISTENCE. I cannot for the life of me sneak in anywhere near the harbor. I'm using TM 1.6, and I really like the pumped up AI, but I cannot, for the life of me, sneak into a harbor. I run at PD and rigged for silent, but they seem to nail me everytime.

How do you all sneak into harbors? I try to stick to the deepest water I can, but those parts seem to be the most patrolled. Is there a trick to it that I'm just missing here?

For that matter, how accurate is being issued a mission like reconning Osaka harbor, really? I've seen the picture of Mt. Fuji taken through the scope, and I've heard the story about the boat being so close to shore that they saw the racetrack, and Fluckey's adventures in train demolition, but was this really the norm?

[NefariousKoel]

I think the hydrophones on AI DDs are too jacked up and the active sonar is a bit wimpy. Dunno.. experimenting with the settings lately myself.

One big hangup I have is that the thermocline layer is like a brick wall. The way it's set up, the value doesn't really portray it properly where distance from the noise source is the huge factor.

Of course, I probably have a different outlook on the whole sonar situation compared to others, but I still think it needs some mod work.

[tater]

When I release an updated campaign that is TM compatible, it shouldn't be a problem. I've long since eliminated the harbor missions (all of them) in my own campaign, they are silly.

[NefariousKoel]

I kinda like the challenge.

Hey Tater, you think you could have some in for maybe some minor ports or anchorages? It'd be a good balance that way and not quite so crazy. The variety is definitely good on occasion too.

[tater]

Well, my plan was to eliminate all of them in Japan (in a TM version I might have to make sure there is something near ole BP). Others might exist, but with different missions.

Perhaps mining---the reality is that US boats just didn't do it.

The missions are separate from the campaign in most ways, so a version with all new missions (and all the unrealistic ones expunged) would be my baseline, but it'd be easy enough to leave a few in as an optional install I guess.

tater

[-Pv-]

In my current campaign I'm two years into it and only one photo mission so far and two infiltrations. Indeed they are the most difficult missions, but I find myself as a result of this discussion thinking about what the designers were trying to do. One uniqueness of SH4 over 3 is the stronger emphasis on shallow water operations where bases had to be maintained on small islands so forces could have supply and repair over the vast ocean. Besides chasing small convoys around these islands, what are we do do? By and large, the nature of the enemy, small convoys poorly escorted leaves room for challenge. Obviously too many of harbor expoits makes the game seem difficult, perhaps tedious, but once in a while I find myself getting quite anxious to try and fulfill one of the shallow harbor missions. Difficult but not impossible. They also require a large dedication to a block of time. Something many do not have patience for in our FPS generation.

As Tater pointed out, you drop off/pick up an infiltration, or supplies, take pictures, or lay mines. What else is there with any historical basis? Perhaps picking up McArthur and getting him to Austrailia safe. Sink a specific docked target you might have to lie in wait for. Not much to work with in that vain.

One thing I got endless entertainment from with Silent Service was hanging out around a port and watching merchants accumulate from different directions and over time. They would gather at the port, organize, then head out under escort. Pure genious coding. I could do those expoits for years.
-Pv-

[tater]

On the plus side, I've figured out how to do exfiltration missions :D

tater

[mookiemookie]

Pv, you're right. I really appreciate the variety factor that the developers were going for in terms of missions. That was one of my biggest gripes about SH3...the sameness of "patrol grid XXXX for 24 hours". I like how they addressed it, but I don't really agree with the WAY they addressed it. In other words, the idea is great, but the execution of such leaves a bit to be desired.

tater, you are the man, the myth and the legend. I posted this thread kind of knowing that you'd have your two cents to put in, and that's what I was fishing for. Did you ever get anywhere with your "create an invisible ship to lock on to in order to make small island shore defense recon" mission feasable? That, to me, seems like a more realistic use of the photo recon mission.

But it's good to hear that you've been working on things. I really do appreciate your devotion to realism. I think your improved campaign layers are indeed one of the "must have" mods...but enough of me fawning.

I turned around and went home after I got the "recon Osaka harbor" mission. I had already completed two patrol missions, successfully with about 13,000 tons sunk and 45 days out, so I figured that was good enough. I guess the game agreed with me, as I was awarded a Bronze Star.

Eagerly awaiting your fixes to these missions. Keep up the good work!

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

I wouldn't mind the littoral missions (and I'll be honest I like the challenge), it it wasn't for the fact the AI conveniently knows to ping if you're within their cone. Could be a stationary hole in the water, but you'll be found.

[mrbeast]

Could the harbour recon missions have happened in RL, but instead of taking photos the capatain simply observed what ships were in port, made a list and then transmitted his info as a coded message? The problem with the photo recon is; whats the point of taking photos of a harbour if the boat taking the pictures could be out on patrol for another month? Any intelligence would be hopelessly out of date!

[tater]

There is a test mission in the current campaign version, course you have to happen to get it (beach photography). None of the exfiltration is in yet. I'm still testing it.

I can't see any reason to observe. Course if subs could have gone into the inland sea and sunk the IJN at anchor, they would have. Later in the war, such activity would have been dangerous not just because of the japanese, but because of mines dropped by the USAAF. B-29s dropped a LOT of mines in japanese waters.

The agent insertions... also pretty bogus. Coastwatchers, yes. Philipines, not unlikely. Even China could be plausible. Japan? No.

Real subs would be placed in a screening line in the ocean, not brown water. I think it would make sense to eliminate the requirement to be surfaced to transmit a report, or at least up the range for contact reports. 4500 yards is suicidally close to surface and crank up the radio.

[mrbeast]

Real subs would be placed in a screening line in the ocean, not brown water. I think it would make sense to eliminate the requirement to be surfaced to transmit a report, or at least up the range for contact reports. 4500 yards is suicidally close to surface and crank up the radio.

Yeah sending contact reports is a ball ache. I'm forever clicking on 'send contact report' and it never does until a DD or DE is just about to open fire on me!:damn:

Would be good if that could be fixed.

[hyperion2206]

It would be cool if you could sent a contact report when you detect a convoy/TF by radar only. Didn't the Archerfish sent a contact report after picking up the Shinano on radar only?:hmm:

[Snuffy]

My current mission, (vanilla, 1.3, and TM 1.6+), I'm 2/3rds of the way into a bay where I am given a mission to photo stuff.

It's been a slow go, 1/3 ahead 60 feet or better submerged, and silent running. It's a long bay I have about 5/8ths of the batteries left. I've managed to slip past the initial patrol DD and have been shadowing a small gun boat up the bay.

It's also about 0200 and the sun will be up soon and I'm afraid I'm gonna have to hit bottom and wait it out. I can only hope that I have enough battery to get out of there when I'm done.

But I don't mind the missions, and as has been said they are a challenge.

[Sailor Steve]

It seems like these are the friggin BANE OF MY EXISTENCE. I cannot for the life of me sneak in anywhere near the harbor.
Sounds just like my experiences with SH1.

That was one of my biggest gripes about SH3...the sameness of "patrol grid XXXX for 24 hours". I like how they addressed it, but I don't really agree with the WAY they addressed it. In other words, the idea is great, but the execution of such leaves a bit to be desired.
Originally they were going to have a completely scripted campaign, with every patrol being a mission of some sort or another. After massive community complaints they changed it to an 'AOD-type' dynamic campaign. the 'Patrol grid XXXX' was what they had left over.

The problem with the photo recon is; whats the point of taking photos of a harbour if the boat taking the pictures could be out on patrol for another month? Any intelligence would be hopelessly out of date!
I never thought of that. Good point.:sunny:

[PaulPosition]

The problem with the photo recon is; whats the point of taking photos of a harbour if the boat taking the pictures could be out on patrol for another month? Any intelligence would be hopelessly out of date!
Didn't they set sorts of rendez-vous in high sea to exchange such information or pick up people for insertions and such? Or was it only the Germans doing that until they figured out their code was broken because the intimate rendez-vous became open-houses?

[tater]

There is no possible reason to photograph ships in harbor in RL. Doesn't make any difference when they'd get the data, it would be old compared to the sigint they already would have for that unit.

Seriously, they make no sense. The only photpgraphy doen in RL was of things like beach defenses. Any images of ships were at sea, and not the primary mission---sink them first. :D

[STEED]

There is no possible reason to photograph ships in harbor in RL. Doesn't make any difference when they'd get the data, it would be old compared to the sigint they already would have for that unit.

Seriously, they make no sense. The only photpgraphy doen in RL was of things like beach defenses. Any images of ships were at sea, and not the primary mission---sink them first. :D

This is a good point as I also am fed up of back to back photo missions even on the odd time I sunk the warships and got away and yet I am sent back, why?

I no longer bother with these missions and go hunting instead. ;)

[tater]

That said, the variability IS nice. I'm trying to come up with some other novel missions to replace them.

tater

[FAdmiral]

There is no possible reason to photograph ships in harbor in RL. Doesn't make any difference when they'd get the data, it would be old compared to the sigint they already would have for that unit.

Seriously, they make no sense. The only photpgraphy doen in RL was of things like beach defenses. Any images of ships were at sea, and not the primary mission---sink them first. :D

The only mission I know of that this was done was in the "Dolittle Raid" where
the ships would have been there during the raid. In the movie "Destination: Tokyo" it has this mission....

JIM

[tater]

No US sub went into Tokyo Bay before the surrender. The sub in the Doolittle raid actually near the mouth, but was by no means inside like we are ordered in SH4 all the time. The boat didn't take pictures, she broadcast weather reports (not sure about the pilots using the radio to home on, I may be remembering another mission I read about).

That movie was fictional regarding the sub.

tater

PS--I'm working on the radio mission ;)

[tater]

http://www.valoratsea.com/recon.htm

All the RL recon missions, only some are photo. None anywhere remotely near Japan.

Anti-picket boat sweeps might also be a fun rerplacement.

[hyperion2206]

http://www.valoratsea.com/recon.htm

All the RL recon missions, only some are photo. None anywhere remotely near Japan.

Anti-picket boat sweeps might also be a fun rerplacement.

I think USS Wahoo is missing, if memory serves correctly Morton was sent to the harbour of Wewak to do some reconassance.

[tater]

Wahoo "stuck her nose" into Wewak, but it was just Morton looking for stuff to kill, not recon as I recall. Have a look at Wewak though:

http://wwwrses.anu.edu.au/geodynamics/gps/png/site_info/wewakmap.jpg

It ain't Tokyo bay by a long stretch ;) Pretty wide open. But, and this is important, just gettign close to "Wewak Harbor" in that wide open area was considered VERY dangerous (and it was). Going into the harbors routinely ordered in SH4 is orders of magnitude more daring than what Wahoo did. That's why having the missions is bad, IMO. It makes what should be, well, suicidally insane, commonplace.

tater

[hyperion2206]

Wahoo "stuck her nose" into Wewak, but it was just Morton looking for stuff to kill, not recon as I recall. Have a look at Wewak though:



It ain't Tokyo bay by a long stretch ;) Pretty wide open. But, and this is important, just gettign close to "Wewak Harbor" in that wide open area was considered VERY dangerous (and it was). Going into the harbors routinely ordered in SH4 is orders of magnitude more daring than what Wahoo did. That's why having the missions is bad, IMO. It makes what should be, well, suicidally insane, commonplace.

tater
You're right these missions are suicide missions. If you should do reconaissance then you should photgraph shore or beach installations. It would be cool to get the mission to shell shore installations but I guess they're indistructable.:shifty:

EDIT:

"On 24 January (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_24) 1943 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943), Wahoo dove two miles north of Kairiru Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kairiru_Island&action=edit) and proceeded around the western end to penetrate Victoria Bay (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Victoria_Bay&action=edit). She sighted a destroyer with Ro (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ro_class_submarine&action=edit)-class submarines nested around it. The destroyer was getting underway, so Wahoo fired a spread of three torpedoes at the moving target; all missed aft. Another was fired which the destroyer avoided by turning away, then circled and headed for Wahoo. The submarine watched him, keeping bows on, waiting until the destroyer had closed to a frightening distance of 800 yards before firing the fifth and last torpedo in the forward tubes. It struck amidships, breaking his back. Wahoo had no difficulty escaping the area. Despite her heavy damage Harusame was beached and repaired."

taken from:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Wahoo_(SS-238)

[silentscorp1971]

Wahoo was under orders to reconniter the harbor to see if the Japanese were massing ships there for an attack. :know:

[hyperion2206]

Wahoo was under orders to reconniter the harbor to see if the Japanese were massing ships there for an attack. :know:

You're absolutely right:yep:, the candidate has won the jackpot!;)

[tater]

Cool, I didn't remember that!

<S>

Regardless, as you can see, the harbor is pretty darn open to the sea, the daring part was that they actualy got in close instead of taking a peek from as far away as was practical.

tater

[hyperion2206]

You must have had some guts to get that close!:arrgh!:

[Snuffy]

Well since my last post around 11 or so this morning, it's now 5:30 and I'm really no closer to my objective than I was earlier.

I got spotted by a couple subchasers and a DD and have been playing cat and mouse at 130 feet, silent running, battlestations, and 1/3 ahead or full stop most of the time hoping to wait them out ... so far it doesn't appear to be working.

I've had a couple convoys pass overhead while waiting and that gave me some breathing time from the DC attack, but for the most part I've been untouched. Just getting the hell pinged out of me tough.

((Not sure if this is relivant or not, but I've been playing this career without using waypoints plotted on the map. The AI seems to know I'm in the general area but it can not pin point me exactly as there is no path for it to project upon. I'm doing manual navigation.))

[Coletrains]

I did already two harbour missions (HATE :nope:) including tokyo, i recommend:

-start with near full batteries before entering harbour bays. you will have no chance of escape if you enter already with onyl 1/2 batteries
-sometimes the first destroyer line can be passed by diesel engine over water max speed
-run close near one coast line, you will have contact with bottom
-look out for some smaler bays for a hide, letting ships pass
-save often.... :damn:

[TDK1044]

How do you all sneak into harbors? I try to stick to the deepest water I can, but those parts seem to be the most patrolled. Is there a trick to it that I'm just missing here?

One technique I've used is to wait for a commercial ship to enter the harbor and then hide underneath it matching it's speed and direction. Any patrol boats ignore the commercial ship, and your prop noise is hidden by the ship's props. Getting out of the harbor tends to be easier because the patrol boats are looking outward not inward. :D

[mookiemookie]

How do you all sneak into harbors? I try to stick to the deepest water I can, but those parts seem to be the most patrolled. Is there a trick to it that I'm just missing here?
One technique I've used is to wait for a commercial ship to enter the harbor and then hide underneath it matching it's speed and direction. Any patrol boats ignore the commercial ship, and your prop noise is hidden by the ship's props. Getting out of the harbor tends to be easier because the patrol boats are looking outward not inward. :D

Funny you should say that. I remember my dad telling me that's exactly how they snuck into a Russian port back in the 70's when he was riding subs. :arrgh!: I'll give it a try.

[Snuffy]

One technique I've used is to wait for a commercial ship to enter the harbor and then hide underneath it matching it's speed and direction. Any patrol boats ignore the commercial ship, and your prop noise is hidden by the ship's props. Getting out of the harbor tends to be easier because the patrol boats are looking outward not inward. :D

Well its now Monday, and my original posts were written on saturday, but ultimately what happened was during the cat and mouse game, the chasers and DD backed off for the passage of a commercial boat. I snagged the opportunity and flanked out of my hole to get behind the merchant. The task force was left to wondering where I disappeared to.

I got my pictures and by the end of sunday night (just before SNF) I was exiting Tokoyo Bay. The whole of the mission was done at 1:1 .. Zero TC.