View Full Version : Operation Berlin in GWX
Ohoy,
A couple of questions on the "Operation Berlin" scenario in GWX if you don't mind. The situation is as follows:
1. I started a new career with 2nd Flotille in FEB 1941, with the purpose of doing a few sea trials before heading south to the Cap Verde Islands. My plan was to try and intercept Scarnhorst/Gneisenau, U-105/U-106/U-124 and/or BB Malaya and convoy SL-67 on the 7th March 1941.
2. Since there are no LAT/LONG coordinates on the map in SHIII and the map in the GWX manual is very large scale it would probably be a bit difficult to do the intercept, but I was hoping for some good intel out of SH Gen or Radio Reports from BdU. The only info I had was Scarnhorst LAT/LONG and steering course 140 degrees when intercepting SL-67, so I assumed it would be a few hundred NM SE of the Cap Verde islands on the main convoy route from Freetown to GB.
(on the map in the GWX manual it looks like the location is SW of Cap Verde, but this didn't really fit with the fact, that it's off the main convoy route, and Scarnhorst was steering 140 degrees en route from the Canaries).
My back-up plan was to intercept BB Malaya and SL-68 together with the other U-Boats on March 20, since I knew this would be 250 NM NNW of Cap Verde.
3. After 3 weeks of tidious cruising - ignoring a bunch of juicy tagets to conserve fuel - I arrived on station at the Cap Verde islands H-2 days and started a monster search pattern. En route south I had received a huge number of Radio Messages about a couple of Wolf-Pack attacks near the British Isles, so I had high hopes for some udates on "Operation Berlin", since I had received the Radio Message on the kick-off of the operation in an earlier career.
4. An updated Intel Report (100% Intel/100% reliability settings) via SH Gen didn't give me any hint as to where where to start looking and the radio spam about the operation to the north continued without any info on Berlin nor ship/convoy observations in the South Atlantic.
However, since arriving in the area I have received maybe 50 reports on Warships spawning about 500 NM north of Freetown on course south, where they gathered outside Freetown. I was hoping that they were forming the escort for SL-67, but when the 6 March passed and they were still mingling about this was unlikely to happen. I hanged around between Freetown and Cap Verde for another week without a single sighting. I'm now making my way NW at a crusing speed of 8 knts while I write this, in the hope that I'll intercept the Malaya on or around March 20.
Questions:
1. Are the Campaigns/scenarios scripted so that the units are spawned directly at location or are they arriving from the historic starting point i.e. will the BB Malaya be escorting the convoy from Freetown or spawn at the correct location?
2. What's the exact location for the rendez-vous between the subs and the BB's on March 6? and/or the exact location of the intercept of BB Malaya and SL-67?
3. What's the exact location of the intercept of SL-68 and Malaya on March 20 (I might be able to confirm if 250 NM NNW is correct when I arrive in a few hours RL time :yep: ).
4. What's the exact location of the intercept of HMS Rodney and Convoy HX-114 in the North-Atlantic on March 16?
Many thanks - I know that I could just follow the task-force from Kiel in January, but without any Milk Cows around I'm unlikely to last for the two months duration of the operation or aquire contact again after a refuelling run to the Canaries.
regards,
KPII
Edit: just a few more questions on second thought - if you read this far you probably won't mind:
5. Will it be possible to re-fuel from the tankers where Scarnhorst/Gneisenau refuelled as indicated on the map?
6. Does SHIII/GWX spawn all new convoys/ships in habours or in mid-ocean?
7. Running SH Gen on max settings I was surprised to see that A. there are very few single merchants in general and B. Convoys and single merchants does not spawn on or near the routes indicated on the SHIII map. Can anyone confirm that this is correct or is the Intel from SH3 Gen incomplete/incorrect?
Thanks a bunch and thanks also for the most amazing Mod I have ever seen!
bigboywooly
09-09-07, 06:32 AM
Well looks to me like the only movements of Op Berlin are the 2 battlecruisers
Who leave Kiel - follow the course taken in RL then dock at Brest
The uboats and convoys are not scripted
As to your other questions
No you cannot refuel from the tankers for the 2 BCs
Convoys spawn near ports not actually in them due to game limitations
The convoy map is a guide
Not the exact location of all convoy routes as in RL convoy routes altered due to intel on uboats or uboat attacks
Thanks for the response BigBoy,
Well looks to me like the only movements of Op Berlin are the 2 battlecruisers
Who leave Kiel - follow the course taken in RL then dock at Brest
The uboats and convoys are not scripted
Thanks for the info. The manual is a little misleading, since it does describe and display the actions of the different surface units. I guess I've just wasted a good 8-10 RL hours chasing this scenario.
As to your other questions
No you cannot refuel from the tankers for the 2 BCs
Convoys spawn near ports not actually in them due to game limitations
Thanks - it makes sense that they spawn around ports, it makes the intel from SH Gen a little more useful.
The convoy map is a guide
Not the exact location of all convoy routes as in RL convoy routes altered due to intel on uboats or uboat attacks
Yes - I'm aware that it's just a general guide and that convoys would of course alter their routes. However, they would not alter them thousands of nautical miles as they would need to follow the currents and weather of the Atlantic. Not following the currents would mean that they would make zero movement over ground, so it's actually inaccurate that convoys are to be found so far off the general Atlantic crossing routes.
If you are not 100% sim enthusiast, use 1.03 GWX spy sat. It help's a lot:yep:
Cezbor: Thanks for the tip! This is exactly what I have been looking for - too many RL hours spend roaming the seas instead of calculating firing solutions.
Btw. my apologies for all the questions in the long-winded first post. I was just getting a bit frustrated when I couldn't locate any surface units after the long trip.
I have just had a go at the Weserubung scenario and can highly recommend it. The invasion fleet and the allied re-inforcements show up exactly where they should, except that HMS Nelson have replaced the Warspite. Anyway, I got the Nelson with a spread of 3 at 2500 yards and got promptly chased by all 9 DD's in the shallow waters of Vestfjord :o
bigboywooly
09-10-07, 12:55 PM
Yeah thats one unit we dont have
The Warspite
Yeah thats one unit we dont have
The Warspite
Ahhh ... so that's the reason I couldn't locate it in the Renown Chart. I assumed that the Warspite was a Nelson Class and that it was the class and not the exact ship that was scripted.
Anyway, I just had the strangest experience on the way south. I Received a contact update from BdU about a Task Force south of Trondheim on April 16, and promptly orderd ahead full in that general direction since I was 300 NM out. When I approached the area the map contact was updated, so I assumed they were still in there or at least on the way out. I entered the fjord carefully going down for a listener every 20K or so. I suddently bump into a Tribal Class laying at anchor and later on a Troop Transport, so I navigate to a favorouble firing position when I realise that I know absolutely nothing about what else might be out there. I do a bit of recon and it turns out that there are 4 Tribal Class, 3 Troop Transports and a Fiji Class just lying there in the shallow waters.
To make a long story short (and get to the point!) I'm hiding in a small fjord 3 hours later doing repairs and reloading after having sunk a Tribal class (self-defense), a Troop Transport and damaged another transport. The wind has picked up so it's now a full gale. I make another approach towards the task-force and to my surprise I see that they have all run aground! The icons on the map indicate they are very much alive, but there is no movement at all and slamming a few fish into the last transport doen't make a difference - a very eeary *spelling* feel to the situation, so I legged it out before the same happend to me :-? .
I arrive back in Wilhelsmhafen a few days later and look forward to use all the renown I have earned for sinking 60K tons on my first patrol. Suddently I remember that there was the small incident where I surfaced next to a German Large Merchant and forgot that the deck-gun was manned and set to "Fire at Will" while I was reading radio transcripts with TC set to 32 ;-)
Total renown for a great patrol: MINUS 1871
bigboywooly
09-10-07, 01:45 PM
Ouch
Tough luck
No the Warspite is a Queen Elizabeth class BB
No QE class models exist as far as I know
The Nelson is a stand in
Kaleu. Jochen Mohr
09-10-07, 01:49 PM
http://www.scharnhorst-class.dk/scharnhorst/history/scharnberlin.html
Photo: The Scharnhorst, on 6 March 1941, seen from the German submarine U-124 in the Atlantic during Operation "Berlin".
:hmm: seems like U-124 helped in this operation to
KeptinCranky
09-10-07, 06:08 PM
Ah, the good old weserubung stationary taskforce....:arrgh!:
I've taken advantage of those chumps to boost my renown a few times, unfortunately, with GWX there's a good chance some flyboys will steal most of the credit :shifty: unless you attack them at night :D
bigboywooly
09-10-07, 11:37 PM
That stationary TF should now be gone in 1.04
Ah, the good old weserubung stationary taskforce....:arrgh!:
I've taken advantage of those chumps to boost my renown a few times, unfortunately, with GWX there's a good chance some flyboys will steal most of the credit :shifty: unless you attack them at night :D
I wouldn't quite call it "taken advantage" - they are in very shallow waters (I got knocked down to the floor bed from periscope depth a few times in a gale), so if one DD gets a fix on you it's very difficult to get away to tell the story.
http://www.scharnhorst-class.dk/scharnhorst/history/scharnberlin.html
Photo: The Scharnhorst, on 6 March 1941, seen from the German submarine U-124 in the Atlantic during Operation "Berlin".
:hmm: seems like U-124 helped in this operation to
Yes - I mentioned in my first post that my back-up plan was to try and intercept U-105, U-106 and U-124 NW of Cap Verde, since they engaged the BB Malaya and convoy SL-68 after Scarnhorst and Gneisenau aborted and sailed for the North Atlantic. As Bigboywooly mentioned, then this is not scripted, so neither the U-boats nor convoy SL-68 are to be found at that time and place.
That stationary TF should now be gone in 1.04
I'm sorry to hear that - is it because the task-force always run aground in foul weather? It's a great "scenario" with some different challenges than the normal convoy attacks, so I hope yoiu guys manage to keep it in there. Perhaps adding a few more feet of water might do the trick.
I haven't done any modding in SHIII, but if coding the scenarios is only half as tedious as it is in Rome Total War and Civilization IV, then I understand why some of them are only partly implemented. Personally I find scenarios to be the most interesting part of mods - it just adds so much more to the game when you can dive into a slice of history.
bigboywooly
09-11-07, 09:45 AM
The task force should have disappeared around april 40 but the dates of the group were set to exit in 45
Thats why it just sits there
Yes they are as tedious as RTW
More so
The task force should have disappeared around april 40 but the dates of the group were set to exit in 45
Thats why it just sits there
Yes they are as tedious as RTW
More so
OK - thanks for the response. I have only seen the task-force in mid-April 1940, - since the landing zone is very accurate it's great to see it in there.
Yes they are as tedious as RTW
More so
Then it must be a really pain in the backside to do the donkey-coding on this. I used to enjoy setting up scenarios in Rome Total War (RTW) - I would have a stack of books, my laptop next to the gaming PC and the red lights turned on over the door (just in case my wife thought this would be a great time to have dinner with my inlaws ...doh)
Anyway, it could take an entire weekend just to set up a small historically accurate scenario, so I must have spend more time modding than actually playing the game/scenario.
Bigboywooly, it sounds like you have dragged your blood-soaked sandals through RTW - have you ever tried "The First Triumvirate"? I was part of that team for a while and created the "Cursus Honorum" add-on.
I really miss the aspect of character development in SHIII; imagine if your captains basic traits were modelled and then randomly generated at the start of each game. Those basic traits together with his experience should have a great deal of influence on hit-probability, fatigue and motivation. Would be even better if you startede your career in the training-flotilla with a few basic tests and the results of those tests set your initial competence/aptitude level. That would give you three variables (skill, knowledge & aptitude/traits & characteristics as well as the experience you already earn). That would make every career different since the captains skills, character & experience would influence all sub opeations.
Show me where the right files are and what tool I need to code this and I'll get right at it :)
bigboywooly
09-11-07, 12:39 PM
Open the mission editor and create a new mis file
That way you can save it as a single mission by adding a player sub so you can check things as you go along
The finished article can be merged with the campaign files later
Not seen that add on for RTW
Not been near it for a year mind as ben busy with GWX
Looking forward to Empires though
Looks cool
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/8/1/8/2/0/ss_preview_empire__total_war___leipzig_pcscreensho ts9481etw_announce_03.jpg.jpg?slideshow=true
Open the mission editor and create a new mis file
That way you can save it as a single mission by adding a player sub so you can check things as you go along
The finished article can be merged with the campaign files later
Not seen that add on for RTW
Not been near it for a year mind as ben busy with GWX
Looking forward to Empires though
Looks cool
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/8/1/8/2/0/ss_preview_empire__total_war___leipzig_pcscreensho ts9481etw_announce_03.jpg.jpg?slideshow=true
Thanks - I'll take a stab at it.
Empires looks really interesting - also about time they developed some proper naval combat.
Cezbor: not sure if you are still following this thread - I installed the SpySat thingy, but it doesn't provide any additional updates on task-forces from the scenarios. I still have it running since it's very useful. Can't make up my mind if it's cheating a little - the intelligence updates in stock/GWX are a little slim, but this feels a little over the top. It does give some good info about the patterns of the AI convoy's though and it's interesting to see that they almost follow the correct routes (besides the odd convoys mingling around or being totally off the normal routes).
Just thought I would give a quick update on the next scenario I had a go at. It took two attempts before aquiring contact with the Bismarck task-force in "Operation Rheinubung", but boy was it worth it!
In the first attempt I was placed in the Denmark Strait at the right time, but they must have slipped past my search pattern. Took a wild dash towards the spot where the King George V task-force should be when they launched the Swordfish attack on Bismarck late on the 24th May, but no cigar.
Some time laterI received a MSG from BdU ordering all subs to quardrant BE53 to support the Bismarck - being a few thousand miles out I had no chance of arriving by the 27th, so I packed it in and reloaded the patrol.
This time around I tried to intercept the King George V task force and the Norfolk/Suffolk when leaving Scapa, but again the slipped past my ambush. Full speed ahead towards BE53 placed me on station early on the 26th May, a good 24 hours before the final show-down.
I started a search pattern in the area NE of "BE53", and when it dawned on the 27th without any contacts, I thought this would be another miss. Suddently I get a single warship contact to the SW and it turns out to be the Bismarck. We are now approx. 50 NM NE of "BE53", so I order ahead flank on a NE course in the hope that I'll intercept King George V in time. After a few Swordfish attacks I make contact with HMS Rodney and the King George steering 180 degrees at full steam in the direction of Bismarck. I'm so far out, that the best I can come up with is a spead of 4 at the Rodney from 3000 meters. I'm lucky to get one hit, which slows her down enough so I can finish her off, while the King George pounds the Bismarck back to the stone age.
During and right after the action we were continously being harrassed by Swordfish torpedo-bombers (12 of them made it to the patrol log) so it was quite intense and highly enjoyable.
An excellent scenario! I could really smell the cordit and the saltwater while trying to save the Bismarck.
Thanks for the response BigBoy,
Well looks to me like the only movements of Op Berlin are the 2 battlecruisers
Who leave Kiel - follow the course taken in RL then dock at Brest
The uboats and convoys are not scripted
Thanks for the info. The manual is a little misleading, since it does describe and display the actions of the different surface units. I guess I've just wasted a good 8-10 RL hours chasing this scenario. Hi!
I've altered the manual slightly, as follows:
Operation Berlin was originally included in The Grey Wolves V1.0. The battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau will follow the general path of their historical cruise; however, GWX does not specifically script the convoys or warships that the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau encountered.
Does that better represent how GWX has implemented Operation Berlin?
Thanks!
Pablo
I've altered the manual slightly, as follows:
Operation Berlin was originally included in The Grey Wolves V1.0. The battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau will follow the general path of their historical cruise; however, GWX does not specifically script the convoys or warships that the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau encountered.
Does that better represent how GWX has implemented Operation Berlin?
Thanks!
Pablo
That should do the trick - many thanks Pablo.
The manual is excellent by the way - I took it to bed (!) the first time I installed GWX, and didn't sleep before it was time to get up again. I still use it frequently, which is rare for other manuals. Well done.
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