New game: "Who dropped the missile"?

[geetrue]

Okay, who dropped the dog gone missile?

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/08/22/missile.row.reut/

Russia or is Georgia lying?

True or false:

True ... Russia dropped the missile

False ... Russia did not drop the mssile


"Experts from the United States, Sweden, Latvia and Lithuania said their investigation showed that a plane from Russia was responsible. But Churkin said this group made no effort to get in touch with Russian experts."

"Experts from those countries identified the missile as the Russian-designed KH-58 and said that the Georgian air force did not have aircraft equipped with, or able to, launch KH-58 missiles."

[CCIP]

Who has better reasons to drop the missile I ask?

To me, Georgia which is actively trying to find an excuse to breach UN-imposed ceasefires in Abkhazia and South Ossetia and prevent them from gaining [formal] independence has far more reasons to discredit or provoke their main obstacle in this endeavour - Russia. Needless to say, for them anything is a great opportunity to raise a fuss. They've been caught lying and making intentional provocations before. I don't see any reason to believe them again, especially given how blatantly and openly anti-Russian their present government is.

Russia meanwhile has no reason to try and provoke Georgia that I can see. However there is one possibility they'd be covering this up: the missile was intended for a Chechen militant hiding in Georgia. In which case hey. Do I feel bad for it? No I don't. I don't see America having any reservations about using their missiles on Al Quaeda in Yemen or Somalia on occasion :hmm:


At the least, spare me the jazz on Georgia being a poor democratic underdog under Russia's thumb. The country is ruled by a bunch of sorry-ass nationalists who've done their share of dirty work actively suppressing ethnic minorities on their territory and would do it again if given the chance. They constantly spew out threats and the ruling party has been actively pushing out anyone with remotely moderate views from their ranks. America seems to want them for a friend, of course, because these guys (and gals) hate Russia's guts.

[fatty]

Who has better reasons to drop the missile I ask?

To me, Georgia which is actively trying to find an excuse to breach UN-imposed ceasefires in Abkhazia and South Ossetia and prevent them from gaining [formal] independence has far more reasons to discredit or provoke their main obstacle in this endeavour - Russia. Needless to say, for them anything is a great opportunity to raise a fuss. They've been caught lying and making intentional provocations before. I don't see any reason to believe them again, especially given how blatantly and openly anti-Russian their present government is.

Russia meanwhile has no reason to try and provoke Georgia that I can see. However there is one possibility they'd be covering this up: the missile was intended for a Chechen militant hiding in Georgia. In which case hey. Do I feel bad for it? No I don't. :hmm:

Spoken like a true Russian.

[CCIP]

Yea. I don't feel bad about it though. Mind you, I've done reasearch from multiple perspectives on this and did quite a bit of reading on the Georgian-Abkhaz war. One of the least known and dirtiest (not just on one side, either) little wars of the past couple of decades, shame it's hardly ever remembered when it comes to assessing where Georgia is today.
I should also qualify that I love Georgians as people, known many great specimens from there, but their government lately is just insane...

[bookworm_020]

Pity you din't put a couple of other options in, like

Maybe: America planted it!

Possible: It was done by terrorists!

Awaiting the resulst to be posted by CSI: To early to tell

Bored: Who cares!

[The Avon Lady]

Somewhat OT: It was a missile! No it wasn't! (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1187502436815&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

[Dmitry Markov]

Agreed with CCIP ! Georgians and Russians have been closest friends for centuries and now Saakashvili's regime makes all to ruin this friendship. This missile argue is totally a farce - just look at the staff of their "independent" comission - all Anti-Russian coalition with its full complement: USA, Latvia, Lithuania and so on...:damn: :rotfl:
(We could include Venezuela and India on our side ;) ) Georgians have destroyed for incomprehensible reasons the middle part of "missile" just before our experts arrival. And there were inscriptions in foreign languages on the parts shown to our experts which absolutely cannot belong to russian weapons as we do not use any foreign supply parts in construction of our armaments.

Think there was no plane, no drops at all - just a piece of scrap metall and huge clownish ego of Saacashvili's who dreams of our peacemakers to leave South Osetia and Abhazia to his power and mr Bush's politics of surrounding Russia with unfriendly states to control us. What would happen to this small nations if we'll leave I cannot imagine. But definitely it would be bloody war because this peoples (so as Georgians) would fight for what they think is a question of their survival as nations.

As for Georgia, I hope it would come to time when they would have government less relying upon foreign donations. They have much to give to the world on thier own hand - their potential in field of tourism is huge! If they were less concentrated on making "Great Georgia" they could become good concurent to Mediterranean countries on that. Their ancient culture, their nature, thier wine and their cuisine.... If only they could find way to live as friends with us and their neighbours... Personally I know many Georgians and Abhazians and Osetians and they all are absolutely adequate people. So for me its very sad state of affairs between us all. It was popular during er... Peresroika to criticize severly everything concerning our Soviet past, but looking back from where we are now that life had its advantages one of those was that Soviet Union system didn't allow international hostility to raise until late 80's. And a lot of russians now remember those days as living like one family. I cannot say for other CCCP peoples though, but I have spoken to Ukrainians, Belorussians, even Lithuanians and Georgians and those persons whom I have spoken to feel the same about our past.

Best Regards

[The Avon Lady]

Agreed with CCIP ! Georgians and Russians have been closest friends for centuries and now Saakashvili's regime makes all to ruin this friendship.
Pardon me but from what I recall, Russia forced Georgian annexation 200 years ago.

And 80 years ago, Georgia's attempt at independence was quashed by a Russian Communist military defeat and the installation of a puppet government.

What a way to may "friends"! :doh: :nope:

[Dmitry Markov]

AL maybe you have strange sources of information - Georgia has on its own free will joined Russian Empire. The main reason for that was threat of Iran Invasion and - very important thing those days - Georgians are orthodoxes as Russians so it was logical that smaller orthodoxal people joins the larger beyond the face of mutual foe. Leading role in this process was played by Georgian colony in Moscow. Later Georgian tzar Vakhtang VI have found shelter in Russia during Turkish attacks. In 1795 Iran's shah Aga Magomet-khan invaded Georgia and ruined Tbilisi - it was reason for Russia to join the war against Persia as we had Georgievsky traktat with Kartli (the way Georgia was named that days). Pavel I signed Georgia's entrance in Russia by will of dying Georgy XII.

Joining Russian Empire saved Georgian nation from genocide and assimilation by neighbour islamic states.

As for Soviet Union - there was a lot of support to Union and communism in Georgia itself. RKKA could not have defeated Georgian mensheviks without it. The fact is not only Russians were communists - its not like Russians conquered Georgia - there was great amount of communists among Georgians too and they prooved to be more power-willing than others. Besides, being caught behind two evils - communists and Turks (that began invasive actions at the same time) Georgians chose the lesser. It was not affair of hostility between of our nations but unhappy concurrence of circumstances which lead to rising of communist regime in our countries. During the Soviet period Georgians and some other Caucasian peoples (like Chechens) were the richest among other nations of CCCP. Oh what we are talking about - wasn't Stalin Georgian ;) ? Or wasn't Beria Georgian? Or wasn't Orjonikidze Georgian? And all of them were the Soviet (and Russian) communist leaders at the same time.
Things are much more complicated than just Russians-bad /Georgians- innocent and good.
Ask any Georgian Veteran of WWII (or Great Patriotic War as we and Georgians call it). He won't say you that he fought only because bolsheviks told him to and it was bloody nkvd's agent behind his back when he looked at the Hitler's tanks from his tranche (as Saacashvili would like him to tell ).
Try to read something not so ... Saacashvilish:88)
Sorry for being so verbose... :)

Best Regards

[The Avon Lady]

AL maybe you have strange sources of information - Georgia has on its own free will joined Russian Empire. The main reason for that was threat of Iran Invasion and - very important thing those days - Georgians are orthodoxes as Russians so it was logical that smaller orthodoxal people joins the larger beyond the face of mutual foe. Leading role in this process was played by Georgian colony in Moscow. Later Georgian tzar Vakhtang VI have found shelter in Russia during Turkish attacks. In 1795 Iran's shah Aga Magomet-khan invaded Georgia and ruined Tbilisi - it was reason for Russia to join the war against Persia as we had Georgievsky traktat with Kartli (the way Georgia was named that days). Pavel I signed Georgia's entrance in Russia by will of dying Georgy XII.
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)#Within_the_Russian_Empire)

Encarta (http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761556415_2/Georgia_(country).html#s11)

[Dmitry Markov]

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%93% D1%80%D1%83%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B8

Non-Saacashvilish article in Wikipedia :D (If you cannot read Russian - try to use any translator programm if it would be at interest to you)
In fact, today most of articles about Georgia written in English are very pro-Saacashvilish. If you cannot read between the lines - you'll never find the truth. Saacashvili's guys would tell you our army was withdrawn in 1795 but they don't tell you that Russia returned to Georgia territories conquered by Turks. They'll tell you that Russians have treated Georgians badly in period of early 1800's but they won't remind you about Bagration - the famous Russian general, Georgian by nationality who willingly fought against Napoleon despite this. They won't remind you of Georgians who fought on our side against Cherkeses, Chechens, Turks and other foes. And again - actions of authorities not always display feelings of people as I may assure you Russian people always looked at other orthodoxal peoples as brothers (even Ethiopian). If some officers and officials had no rules it doesn't mean they represented will of the whole nation. The same officers and officials inflicted harm to their own Russian farmers and non-gentry people - I mean that's all about concrete person's crimes and not about nation's feelings.

As I've said - things are much more complicated than it may seem. Learn to read between the lines - this is the mastery we've all learned well here in former CCCP during Soviet period ;)

As for the second URL - I cannot see any incorrespondence with my words. Communism was our mutual weight to carry.

And again about friendship - part of my family lives in Sochi - very close to the Abhazian border. In Soviet days there lived a lot of Georgians too. And all of peoples - Georgians, Russians and Abhazes were in good relations. Or at least there was no open hostility between Georgians and Abhazes. My grandmother's name is Tamara - her parents gave her this name in honour of Georgian Queen Tamar in spite they were Russian cossaks. She graduated in Tbilisi and has a lot of Georgian friends - she even can speak Georgian ;) .

Best Regards again :)

[CCIP]

I'd also like to point out that Georgia is a Christian nation surrounded by primarily Muslim peoples that really, really don't like Georgians. An exception to that is christian Armenia, but they also aren't Georgia's biggest fans. In that case Russia has always been a natural partner.

Economically also, as I said, Georgia has few friends in the region. Or anywhere. Ever see any Georgian peaches or wines on store shelves in America? I sure haven't. Russians actually appreciated these. At the same time, thousands and thousands of Georgians live and work in Russia (some illegally). Yet Russia has other sources of peaches, wine and illegal migrants...

My point is that the hostility for the Saakashvili faction to Russia makes no sense. It's like Mexico suddenly deciding to get really pissed at the US. Well, the US doesn't exactly have good economic ties with Cuba for instance, does it?

I don't think Putin wants to annex Georgia or limit their independence. In all honesty, as I said, Russia can get by just fine without Georgia. Let them go and mess themselves up. But I think it obviously puzzles everyone to see a natural partner get so overtly hostile. Especially when pretty much everyone else in the region has somehow worked it out. Armenia and Azerbaidzhan sure don't like each other and have plenty of outstanding geopolitical issues, but both have good relations with Russia nowadays, and Russian store shelves are full of Armenian wines and Azerbaidzhanian peaches.

Honestly, tell me: does Russia today need Georgia in its "empire"? Georgia can go fish, I think. I think I'm expressing most Russians' attitude, though, when I say I'm totally puzzled by how absurd and naive the Georgian position on world and regional affairs is.

And how obvious. It's clear as day (to me) they want Round 2's in the Abkhaz and Ossetian conflicts, but before that they need to discredit Russia and get the UN, Nato or even just Uncle Sam on their side. Seems they've heard about the whole "our sonovabitch" thing and decided to try out :hmm:

[geetrue]

Isn't it true, I heard this rumor, that Stalin was from Georgia
and that he wouldn't murder/kill anyone from Georgia for fear
that his mother would hear about it?

He didn't want to get his mother upset ...
now that is a real study in human psychology.

Murder and purge millions, but not one from Georgia.

[The Avon Lady]

Isn't it true, I heard this rumor, that Stalin was from Georgia
and that he wouldn't murder/kill anyone from Georgia for fear
that his mother would hear about it?

He didn't want to get his mother upset ...
now that is a real study in human psychology.

Murder and purge millions, but not one from Georgia.
Reminds me of a book (http://www.amazon.com/But-Was-Good-His-Mother/dp/9652292494/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-8794452-4943966?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187883334&sr=1-1).

We once discussed here Mafioso's adoration for their mothers. It was Costra-Nostra-wide. :D

[CCIP]

Murder and purge millions, but not one from Georgia.

Where have you heard that? I assure you, Georgians have suffered as much as anyone under Stalin's rule.

[AntEater]

Idiot nationalism is much en vogue in eastern Europe right now.
The only thing that changes is that in some nations the big bad is Germany, not Russia.
In Poland it is both, in the Czech Rep. only Germany, but Czechs are too easygoing to be real fanatics.
In the Baltic states it is Russia, while Germans (the big bad only 200 km south) are suddenly extremely popular again.
But that reminds me of an edit war in the english Wikipedia when some Pole rampaged through basically any article covering german history to prove that since dawn of time, the prime aim of all germans has been to harm Poland, even before it existed.
Georgia is the same, only with Russia instead of Germany.
But as the previous posters have pointed out, it makes no sense for Georgia to allign itself with the Muslim nations in the south and east.
Their governments may yet be Pro-US, but their people surely aren't. Turkey is on the verge of abandoning secularism after the last elections, and many in the ruling party want a new ottoman empire. Azerbijan wants to kill every last armenian on its territory and is currently systematically destroying every christian monument in the country, down to gravestones.
Nice allies for a small christian country.
We don't have to talk about Iran, even if they actually have good relations to Armenia, on the simple basis that Persians and Iranians are much more closely related than Persians and Azeris or other turkish people.
I suppose pan-turkish nationalism will show its ugly face in that region in a few years.
Also, Georgia dreams about becoming a new Israel, while the US does not want to support the one Israel they allready have.

Btw, regarding Georgia and wine and the US, I've spent the Christmas season of 2005 helping my georgian friend to sell the wine of his father's company to US servicemen in the Wiesbaden-Erbenheim PX.
Our sales were less than impressive, it seemed to me that you could chase away the average WASP Ami with any alcohol stronger than a bud lite and wine seems to have a elitist flavor to americans, which did not appeal to soldiers.
The only ones who bought some were latinos.
Of course 95% of all people thought thought georgian wine came from somewhere near atlanta...
"Kindzmarauli" or "Khvanchkara" do not really sound like redneck, I think
:damn:

[tycho102]

With all the crap Putin is pulling, I don't even remotely put it past him to do something "small" like this. Low-level threats can be useful in international politics.

[XabbaRus]

Isn't it true, I heard this rumor, that Stalin was from Georgia
and that he wouldn't murder/kill anyone from Georgia for fear
that his mother would hear about it?

He didn't want to get his mother upset ...
now that is a real study in human psychology.

Murder and purge millions, but not one from Georgia.

Read "Court of the Red Tsar" by Simon Sebag Montefiore and you will see that nationality didn't realy matter much to Stalin. Sure there were some he took more out on than others but it was pretty much enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and to have said what was perceived to have been the wrong thing.

[joea]

Very much appreciated CCIP's and Dmitry Markov's posts, very informative. I have to say these polls are kind of silly...I mean what evidence do any oof us have to make a judgment? It's not as if we are from the CSI crime lab eh? :lol: granted the discussion is entertaining and I suppose the poll can show attitudes and prejudices if nothing else. However, I won't answer as I don't know.

I do want to remind folks, I mean my fellow Westerners, that Shakashvili originally came to power in a kind of coup..not very democratic. Also, despite his faults I always admired Shevardnadze, also one of the msot honest Soviet leaders during the Glasnost era.

[geetrue]

Murder and purge millions, but not one from Georgia.

Where have you heard that? I assure you, Georgians have suffered as much as anyone under Stalin's rule.

I looked up the rumor ... what I found was this:

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1712.html

When Stalin was at the height of his power he went to visit his old mother back in Georgia.
Now his dear old mother knew her son was recognized as a great man, like a "Red Tsar'' as he had explained to her on a previous visit. Much as he loved his mother one thing was playing on Stalin's mind at this meeting though. His mother used to thrash him on a regular basis for the slightest breaches of discipline (as had his father). So this time he finally broached the subject of all those terrible beatings he got.

" Why did you beat me so Mother'', he asked.
" Well looked how well you turned out my son'', mother replied.

Then I found out that his mother died in 1937 ... that leads me to believe that as long as his mother was alive he did not murder/kill anyone inside of Georgia for fear his mother would hear.

Stalin lived from 1879 - 1953, he was general secretary of the Communist Party from 1922 to his death in 1953.

The rumor is probably true from 1922 to his mother's death in 1937 ... but after that no one was safe from his purging.

Did you know that Stalin use to be a choir boy?

[Dmitry Markov]

Not only Stalin was a choir boy, but his father was an orthodoxal cleric.
But Stalin didn't learn much from the Sunday school lessons - he desided to become a god himself (so desided Lenin, whom he led to death). He did nothing when Lenin ordered to imprison and murder Orthodoxal clergymen - more than that he was completely agreed with the plan of replacing Christian religion in minds of people with new one - communism.

Best Regards

[CCIP]

Also, one should keep in mind that Stalin, before he became the Big Chief in the whole union, was actually in charge of the Caucasus, before Lenin even died. I would really take it for a rumor that he wouldn't have touched anyone in Georgia. Although admittably, of all Caucasian lands, Georgia was certainly the most docile at the time.

[bradclark1]

but his father was an orthodoxal cleric.

His father was a drunken cobbler. Stalin hated him. His father disappeared after being taken away by some unknown men.

[Happy Times]

Despite Russian bad talk, Saakashvili ranks as one of the best new leaders in Eastern Europe. Wondering when somebody tries to poison him. Any criticism against him is a joke when comparing it to Russias and Putins actions. Russians just cant get over the imperialism, they really think they are the best that has happened to all of their neighbours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Saakashvili

[CCIP]

As opposed to their neighbours, who of coure think they're the worst thing that happened to them. How objective, particularly in Georgia's case.

Well, as I said, good luck selling your peaches and wine elsewhere, Georgia. :hmm:

And I love Wiki's objectiveness there too. Especially on Saakashvili's desire for "intensified dialogue with Abkhazia and Ossetia". Oh it's intensified alright! Rather ironic to talk about Russia being bad to their neighbours and encroaching on others' national rights here.

[Happy Times]

As opposed to their neighbours, who of coure think they're the worst thing that happened to them. How objective, particularly in Georgia's case.

Well, as I said, good luck selling your peaches and wine elsewhere, Georgia. :hmm:

And I love Wiki's objectiveness there too. Especially on Saakashvili's desire for "intensified dialogue with Abkhazia and Ossetia". Oh it's intensified alright! Rather ironic to talk about Russia being bad to their neighbours and encroaching on others' national rights here.

To most nations bordering Russia, it has been the biggest threat to their culture, language and independence. In the 19th and 20th centuries.:doh:

More Wiki. And i have to try those Georgian wines, i prefer a semi dry red mostly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_wine

[Dmitry Markov]

Saacashvili - best new leader :hmm: Then I wonder why many Georgians come to work illegaly to Russia. If he was really "best leader" I think he could find the work for them in their own country other than produce all this silly anti-Russian histeria. I absolutely agree with CCIP - its completely pointless.

As for territories which he thinks Russia is dreaming to take from Georgia - he'd better ask their peoples with whom they want to live. With people who fired from helicopters at holiday-makers on the beaches or with people who are protecting them against such treatment. Shure Abhazes inflicted a lot of suffers to Georgians who lived in Abhazia too. But it was Georgia who started that severe war. And Georgia has nothing to do in Abhazia. On the other hand joining of Abhazia and South Osetia into Russian Federation is of no great interest to us as these are regions with ruined during the war infrastructure. It's up to their peoples to decide what to do - to stay within Georgia, to live independently, or to join Russia.


Same with the South Osetia - Georgians regularly fire mortar shells on Osetian villages and they want Osetians express loving feelings towards them hmm.. :hmm:

As for "russification" - my wife was born in Samarkand (ancient city in Uzbekistan) She is Russian. She studied at school during Soviet times and they had both Russian and Uzbek lessons - because Russians living in Uzbekistan ought to have known local language and habbits. And locals ought to have known Russian to communicate with persons of other CCCP nationalities.

Any "threats" to national identity of Soviet republics are mostly far-fetched. There are lots of small peoples in Russia who never complain on that cases - Buryats, Yakuts, Evenks, Chukches, Nentzes, Volga's Tartars, Mari El, Komi, Hants, Mansi and many others. All of them have their unique culture and habbits and language. Of course youth of smaller peoples seduced by comforts of civilized life leave their Stone-Age villages, come to big cities and gradually assimilate - but the same unhappy processes are world-wide. This is called Globalization and Urbanisation and NOT the "Russification".
In your oppinion what language should CCCP and Russian Empire have had as international - Chinese maybe :roll: ? Or English? Think, in the last case Saacashvili would have been happy ;) .

Best Regards

[Dmitry Markov]

By the way, Happy Times, those wines - some of them are really good. Problem is that the best of them are not very suitable for transportation so you should come to Georgia to taste them. Otherwise they tend to resemble cheap Chilean wines.
Kindzmarauli rulezzz :rock: Mukuzani also :rock: :)

Best Regards again

[AntEater]

Problem is, you've never experienced bureaucracy before trying to import Kindzmarauli (and some other sorts) into the EU.
Kindzmarauli is not really classifyable with the EU wine classification system. It is too sweet to be a normal drinking wine, yet it is not a dessert wine.
In eastern europe, where they mostly still use the soviet wine classification system, that is no problem, though.
But that is what I like about the better georgian wine: It is so different from anything you can get here, it seems much more primal to me.
I suppose the wine drunk by the ancient greeks in the Illiad or Odyssey must have been similar.
Figures since according to a reasonable theory, wine cultivation and winemaking comes from the Caucasus

[Dmitry Markov]

I remember one Georgian movie - there was an old diver who found an amphora from an ancient Greek ship that sunk long ago (maybe couple of thousands years). This amphora was sealed and when he opened it there was wine which still was drinkable. And this scene was arranged with great taste even sacre atmosphere... Sort like hymn to quiet and wise life. To my shame, I don't remember the name of the movie and director's name as well :(

Best Regards

[Happy Times]

Saacashvili - best new leader :hmm: Then I wonder why many Georgians come to work illegaly to Russia. If he was really "best leader" I think he could find the work for them in their own country other than produce all this silly anti-Russian histeria. I absolutely agree with CCIP - its completely pointless.

They seem to be making good progress even with the Russian embargo.

IMF reports.


http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2007/05/9b738b21-7faa-4b64-a6d5-37773acf6f82.html

http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/pr/2006/pr06276.htm

http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/pr/2007/pr07182.htm



As for territories which he thinks Russia is dreaming to take from Georgia - he'd better ask their peoples with whom they want to live. With people who fired from helicopters at holiday-makers on the beaches or with people who are protecting them against such treatment. Shure Abhazes inflicted a lot of suffers to Georgians who lived in Abhazia too. But it was Georgia who started that severe war. And Georgia has nothing to do in Abhazia. On the other hand joining of Abhazia and South Osetia into Russian Federation is of no great interest to us as these are regions with ruined during the war infrastructure. It's up to their peoples to decide what to do - to stay within Georgia, to live independently, or to join Russia.

Should we give that right to the Chechens also?



As for "russification" - my wife was born in Samarkand (ancient city in Uzbekistan) She is Russian. She studied at school during Soviet times and they had both Russian and Uzbek lessons - because Russians living in Uzbekistan ought to have known local language and habbits. And locals ought to have known Russian to communicate with persons of other CCCP nationalities.
Any "threats" to national identity of Soviet republics are mostly far-fetched. There are lots of small peoples in Russia who never complain on that cases - Buryats, Yakuts, Evenks, Chukches, Nentzes, Volga's Tartars, Mari El, Komi, Hants, Mansi and many others. All of them have their unique culture and habbits and language. Of course youth of smaller peoples seduced by comforts of civilized life leave their Stone-Age villages, come to big cities and gradually assimilate - but the same unhappy processes are world-wide. This is called Globalization and Urbanisation and NOT the "Russification".
In your oppinion what language should CCCP and Russian Empire have had as international - Chinese maybe :roll: ? Or English? Think, in the last case Saacashvili would have been happy ;) .

Maybe there is a reason you cant hear these stone age people complaining?

Situation of Finno-Ugric and Samoyed Peoples

http://www.mari.ee/eng/scien/topical/Katrin_Saks_Report.html

Mordovian authorities attack opposition newspaper

http://www.mari.ee/eng/news/polit/2007/08/01.html

Ethnic rights activist severely beaten in Russia’s Mari Republic

http://www.mari.ee/eng/news/polit/2007/01/03.html

MEPs condemn attack on Mari activist.

http://www.mari.ee/eng/news/polit/2007/03/01.html

Appeal to the President of Russia from the Association of Nenets People “Yasavei”.

http://www.mari.ee/eng/articles/soc/2006/11/01.html

Will Democracy and Press Freedom Return to the Komi Republic?

http://www.mari.ee/eng/articles/polit/2006/05/01.html

FSB Denounces Finnish Journalist as Western Intelligence Agent.

http://www.mari.ee/eng/articles/polit/2006/01/01.htm

Suspicions of "Finno-Ugric conspiracy" in Russia.

http://www.mari.ee/eng/articles/polit/2005/10/02.htm

http://www.mari.ee/images/soc/IV_SU_kongress_h.jpg



Best Regards

[Happy Times]

By the way, Happy Times, those wines - some of them are really good. Problem is that the best of them are not very suitable for transportation so you should come to Georgia to taste them. Otherwise they tend to resemble cheap Chilean wines.
Kindzmarauli rulezzz :rock: Mukuzani also :rock: :)

Best Regards again

Seems some can be get in Finland,:)

http://www.telianivalley.com/

[Dmitry Markov]

They seem to be making good progress even with the Russian embargo.


Maybe, but it doesn't explain why there are still so many of them doing business in Russia and Ukraine or working illegaly at construction areas? If they are "making good progress" without us? They say they don't need us but they agree that no one else need them. If they don't need Russia why don't they just go and try to make business in Finlandia or Estonia for example. I wonder what Estonian or Finnish farmers would say when Georgians would aquire 90% of their market places and shops and would collect huge fee for the right to trade there ;) They cry we discriminating their business here in Russia but didn't they allow any Russian business on their territory? Abhazes did but Georgians not.

As for Chechens, I hope someday our government would let them go their way just to stop spending our budjet money on them. In my humble opinion profit we gain from Chechnya being Russian territory is much less than expences we wear. But Chernomyrdin and Lebed' have once gaven them freedom de-facto. And what did
we achieve - terroristic bandit hole on our border. Now they say they have dealed with terrorists and rebuilding republic. Amazing but there is one detail - according to Chechen habbit the only heir is the oldest son - others receive nothing at all. Taking into account they have four or five children in families it helps to regulate heirloom conflicts inside the family but leaves a lot of young MEN who cannot find place in their region. So they come to Stavropol, they come to Moscow, they come to Kondopoga and so on... Tajiks come to this places too, and Armenians do and many others, but they live with respect to local habbits and traditions and young Chechens not. They treat us as enemies in their region - I can understand that - it has deep roots, but they think they have right to come to our cities and do whatever they want, they place tribal rules of their diasporas higher than our country laws in summary with our inept and corrupted regional police this leads to complete lawless mess in some cases. Another thing about them - is that they never had any kind of normal traditional business. You won't find any restaurant of Chechenian cuisine or you won't find Chechenian craftsman or Chechenian builder or Chechenian gastarbaiter at last. They think they are higher than this "dirty" professions. Their usual occupations are extortions, kidnapping, car-stealing and so on.
Guys who wear weapons with them any time of day despite our common country laws, who allow themselves to beat unmercifully teenagers with Russian Flag near Red Square in Moscow crying "Allah Acbar" "Russian pigs" and so on being 50 hands to 10 aren't neighbours you've always wanted to live with.
For most of us it would be safier to let them mess with themselves. It would be of mutual benefit I suppose. But then we would need to recreate Cossak militia to defend our South border regions - Stavropol'e and and allow Cossaks to wear weapons to defend their homes from inevitable bandit raids.
Of course there are a lot of normal Chechens like those who are really trying to rebuild their towns. All the things I've said higher concerns only those passionaries who are doing all this mess here in Russia. I believe, in France they have same feelings about arabs, Algerians and other people from former colonies who live there.
But really I don't know what should our government do to manage all this stuff right way. If I knew - I 'd worked in government :)

Best Regards

[TLAM Strike]

One word: TFOA :roll:

[CCIP]

Haha, I think no word can describe how messy the Caucasus is. I don't know any nation there who doesn't, to some extent, have their hands dirty. It's vastly complicated by cultural differences - there's practically nothing in common between many of the nations. On the one hand there's Georgia which is an ancient, Christian, well-organized state - on the other hand there's Chechnya and many other highland places which are really still very much tribal territory, compared better to Afghanistan.

Yea, I agree that Chechnya and the Chechen war were totally useless as far as 'imperialism' goes. The only thing worth fighting for in Chechnya was the massive oil refinery in Grozny, but even after the 1st Chechen war it was basically obliterated in the artillery barrages and bombing. Which were in themselves horrible.
Then the Khadyrov government in Chechnya today is also very much an "our bastard" regime from the Russian perspective. But unfortunately, I think there IS a need for Russia to maintain some sort of strong faction and even some sort of military presence in Chechnya - because we all know what sort of criminal and terrorist groups it tends to produce. It's a massive security threat. Just imagine what the US reaction would be if they had a little patch somewhere in south Texas where the Taleban ran free... :doh:

Personally, I would rather Russia stay as a garantor of the status quo in the Caucasus. Besides the Chechen issue, which I hope will eventually be resolved, there's no other Russian territories in the region that I'm aware of which want to split. Conversely, there is some indication that South Ossetia would even want to join, but that's an initiative coming from them and not Moscow. Moscow has kept quiet on the issue.
If anything, I think Chechnya has taught Russia to keep out of the Caucasus as much as possible in the direct sense. I'm not aware of Putin's government actively pushing for Abkhazian or Ossetian formal independence, just passively supporting de facto independence via peacekeepers. I certainly don't think Russia will ever send troops to fight Georgia over Abkhazia or Ossetia. For one, because the Abkhaz and Ossetians can do it themselves if push comes to shove (as they did a decade ago), for another, because I think Moscow knows what a mess it'll turn out to be.

Now if we theoretically remove Russian presence from anywhere in the region, I guarantee you, all hell would break loose. Starting very much with Georgia; but otherwise there is an amazing number of peoples and clans in the Caucasus with beefs against each other. Who will fix it? NATO?
Okay, so maybe Russia isn't the best thing to happen to the Caucasus. But at this moment, I don't think there's anything worse that could happen to the Caucasus than letting the likes of Saakashvili have free run and destabilize the region. Again, I emphasize: the Caucasus is an amazingly volatile area. I don't think most people, especially in the west, have so much as an appreciation of how complex - ethnically, culturally, and politically - it is. Right now it's a rather precarious system of checks and balances that keeps it relatively stable. Back in the early 90's, we've already seen what happens when the Evil Empire goes out of sight for a moment - all hell broke loose, all over the region, following the collapse of the USSR.
Again, I don't think we need any empire to return there. And Putin isn't stupid enough to push for anything but a normalization of relations in the region. The last thing Russia would want, I think, is to go deeper into the Caucasus. But trust me, anyone who wants peace and stability in the Caucasus has to be pragmatic and cautious, NOT a flaming nationalist like Saakashvili. Nationalism is the last thing that the region needs right now.

[geetrue]

Georgia now says they fired at a Russian plane today and that people reported hearing an explosion in a rural area of Georgia.

http://www.mail.com/Article.aspx?articlepath=APNews\Top%20Headlines\Ge orgia_Russia_20070824.xml&cat=topheadlines&subcat=&pageid=1

[Happy Times]

If they don't need Russia why don't they just go and try to make business in Finlandia or Estonia for example. I wonder what Estonian or Finnish farmers would say when Georgians would aquire 90% of their market places and shops and would collect huge fee for the right to trade there ;) They cry we discriminating their business here in Russia but didn't they allow any Russian business on their territory? Abhazes did but Georgians not.

I would like to hear more about this, just sounds impossible.

As for Chechens, I hope someday our government would let them go their way just to stop spending our budjet money on them. In my humble opinion profit we gain from Chechnya being Russian territory is much less than expences we wear. But Chernomyrdin and Lebed' have once gaven them freedom de-facto. And what did
we achieve - terroristic bandit hole on our border. Now they say they have dealed with terrorists and rebuilding republic. Amazing but there is one detail - according to Chechen habbit the only heir is the oldest son - others receive nothing at all. Taking into account they have four or five children in families it helps to regulate heirloom conflicts inside the family but leaves a lot of young MEN who cannot find place in their region. So they come to Stavropol, they come to Moscow, they come to Kondopoga and so on... Tajiks come to this places too, and Armenians do and many others, but they live with respect to local habbits and traditions and young Chechens not. They treat us as enemies in their region - I can understand that - it has deep roots, but they think they have right to come to our cities and do whatever they want, they place tribal rules of their diasporas higher than our country laws in summary with our inept and corrupted regional police this leads to complete lawless mess in some cases. Another thing about them - is that they never had any kind of normal traditional business. You won't find any restaurant of Chechenian cuisine or you won't find Chechenian craftsman or Chechenian builder or Chechenian gastarbaiter at last. They think they are higher than this "dirty" professions. Their usual occupations are extortions, kidnapping, car-stealing and so on.
Guys who wear weapons with them any time of day despite our common country laws, who allow themselves to beat unmercifully teenagers with Russian Flag near Red Square in Moscow crying "Allah Acbar" "Russian pigs" and so on being 50 hands to 10 aren't neighbours you've always wanted to live with.
For most of us it would be safier to let them mess with themselves. It would be of mutual benefit I suppose. But then we would need to recreate Cossak militia to defend our South border regions - Stavropol'e and and allow Cossaks to wear weapons to defend their homes from inevitable bandit raids.
Of course there are a lot of normal Chechens like those who are really trying to rebuild their towns. All the things I've said higher concerns only those passionaries who are doing all this mess here in Russia. I believe, in France they have same feelings about arabs, Algerians and other people from former colonies who live there.
But really I don't know what should our government do to manage all this stuff right way. If I knew - I 'd worked in government :)

I only used Chechens just as an exsample when you said the Ossetians and Abkhaz should be allowed to decide what to do. The Finno-Ugrians in their republics arent immigrants, they have lived there thousands of years. It seems your goverment has chosen a very hard line of russification. Its a shame because a lot of Russian culture comes from these people, and most Russians are related to them. If you don believe me, contact these people and ask, but you do it with the risk of getting FSB interested on you.:|\\
You sound like a very decent person btw.:) Поехали!