Politics in America...Very troubling...

[SUBMAN1]

Just thinking here, and the one thing that troubles me more than anything else about US politics is not the Democrats or Republicans, but how they both act. I mean, now days they are at each others throats, demonizing each other, yelling at each other, its pathetic. Anger has replaced sophistication. They all act like a bunch of school children fresh out of diapers. No control over their emotions. All logic out the window replaced by how much you can trash the other party, not taking a stand on a particular issue and debating that stand with sound logic.

The point of this thread is, I've lost respect for the people in charge. The people we elected. Where are the upstanding respectable statesmen that we are supposed to have representing us? All I see are a bunch of children in the sandbox, slinging mud at each other, and then whining about it at the same time.

Just my 2 cents on American politics lately. And don't think it is only one sided - both major parties are at fault here.

-S

[mookiemookie]

Read a wonderful article the other day talking about exactly this:

The Problem With America (http://howtostart.org/2007/08/16/the-problem-with-america/)

[SUBMAN1]

Read a wonderful article the other day talking about exactly this:

The Problem With America (http://howtostart.org/2007/08/16/the-problem-with-america/)

That was a good article. Thanks.

-S

[Sailor Steve]

It comes and goes. The more I read about the founding period of America, the more I discover things really haven't changed all that much. Name-calling ("Un-American!"), mud-slinging ("If Jefferson is elected, murder, robbery, rape, adultery and incest will be openly taught and practiced" [an actual campaign newspaper ad from 1800]) and all-around vitriol were just as common in every period of our country.

[Skybird]

the benefits of a two-party-system.

We have (theoretically) several different parties in Germany, now 7 of them with realistic chances to get into parliament when elections are being held. But the two major parties, the union of CDU and CSU on the one hand, and the SPD on the other, have lost so much identity both of them (which made them appearing as separate alternatives that are different to each other), and we have so often coaltions now with minor parties, that indeed we are down to a two-party, or better: a two-block-system as well. And from here on it is showing a behavior like what Subman is complaining about in America.

World never stays the same, it is dynamic change all over, what once was a positive, inevitably turns into a negative, while all contexts are constantly shifting and reinterprete former constellations and factors in them. Even democracy cannot escape this dynamic as well. the best argument against democracy is today's political parties, and the fact that we accepted the suicidal pervertion of it when allowing professional politicians that make their living by being politicians, and by understanding that as their lifetime "job". One of the bad results is that many politicians set their personal career interest above the interests of the community, and cling to power forever, not understanding that politicians in a democarcy cannot only be voted for, but can be voted out of power, office and influence again. but if they loose their seats today, they lurk around in the background and try to find other ways to stay around. Even if you vote them out of office - you do not really get rid of them, since they make their living by being politicians. thats is the virus that has caused the illness of democracy, and the patient is not dying from it, but already has died many years ago. On national levels, I see not a single democracy anywhere in the West.

Democracy and parties/lobbies do not go well together. I would even say they are mutually exlcusive. The latter turn the first into an enemy to public interest and the wellbeing of the community. Politicians should, like presidents, have a limited time allowed only to be polticians, before they have to leave politics again, and political parties, as well as lobbying, should be forbidden, the latter being seen as a major crime: treachery on the community's interests.

Another fault is that many people are running around and equate elections with democracy. But democarcy is so much more than just being able to vote, elections are only a tool of democracy, and elections must not lkead to democracy automatically - the big self-deception of european, naive well-meaning tolerance-preachers of today. As we see in the ME not really that rarely only, democratic elections can help to bring anti-democratic, ultra-conservative orthodox as well as enemies to freedom and democracy to power. To equate elections with democracy is a very huge, and extremely dangerous mistake. It is popular not only in europe, but America as well.

[STEED]

Sounds like America is going the same way as here, you only got to watch Prime Minister's question time and some times it like a school playground. And they wonder why more and more people are not voting and why? In our case these people can no longer be trusted and they just walk over the voters of this country which leads to this circle going around and round with no results.

I can not suggest anything for you guys but here in the UK I feel politics needs one all mighty shake up and it's down to the voter to do something about it as our political party's will not lift a finger. Political Correctness and liberal stand point has gone to far, the Labour party jump on the conservatives and call them right wing, please don't make me laugh.

Sounds like both our country's need to get a grip. :yep:

[swifty]

One of the change we face is the current state of the US primary and the high cost to run for political office. The primaries tend to attract the far left and right with most others waiting for the main election. This remove the moderates from running in the main election and I feel has caused the wide difference between Republicans and Democrats. In addition because of the extreme cost to run a competitive election it is extremely hard for a independent to run. Really the best way to solve this if for more to vote and realize how important every election is and vote every chance you get.

The other thing I would like to see is a more classical education in the US. During the cold war there was a lot of stress put on math and science and is still that way today. Today when history, reading and social studies schools just teach the facts and do little to go into the why. When you look at our founding fathers they were truly renaissance men. The idea a well rounded education is hard to find in politics.

The good thing is when you look a America though history it is like a slow moving pendulum. When the government goes to far to one side the people react and it will move back. The fact that it moves slowly is a good thing because it allows for the right direction to be mad. The important thing is that we insure our right remain intact and the we maintain an equal balance of power. I truly believe that in 1787 that the right men at the the right moment truly did form a more perfect Union and there has yet to be a better.

[Tchocky]

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b235/LarsenB/candidate-grid.png
Yep.

[AVGWarhawk]

I believe the movie was called, "All the Presidents Men" were Robert Redford was running for president. He was made to look great...flawless....his opponents look bad. The movie consisted of pushing popularity into the White House at all costs. The drive to get him there, to make it was no holes barred. Once there (Robert Redford), and the classic line of the movie, "What do I do now?" The character was totally clueless. Very much what we have going on here. The main players have lost sight of what is really involved with the presidency...they have only focused on getting to the White House and will use any means to do that! It is the thrill of the hunt and the kill. Sadly, once there, they are clueless as to what to do. Just my thought on the current debacle the country is in.

[swifty]

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b235/LarsenB/candidate-grid.png
Yep.

I remember taking those tests in my government class.

[swifty]

http://politicalcompass.org/analysis2

I always end up in weird places but I guess today I'm leaning toward Gandhi.

Your political compass

Economic Left/Right: -2.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.46

http://politicalcompass.org/images/axeswithnames.gif

[bradclark1]

The Problem With America (http://howtostart.org/2007/08/16/the-problem-with-america/)
They need to give a copy of this to each member of congress and post it on every street corner.

[CCIP]

Not a fan of a two party system, but I guess that's not surprising. I've always been in a definite minority of political views, so my interests have always been woefully unrepresented in government. No wonder I'm getting increasingly bitter at the system.

Here's me on the chart:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y122/Otohiko/axeswithnames.gif

Needless to say, though I love many Americans as people, I'd just never get along in your country. Hope you guys sort things out your way and in a positive way. :yep:

[Konovalov]

I believe the movie was called, "All the Presidents Men" were Robert Redford was running for president. He was made to look great...flawless....his opponents look bad. The movie consisted of pushing popularity into the White House at all costs.

I think you are getting this a little mixed up. In the film "All the Presidents Men", Robert Redford played the role of Washington Post journalist Bob Woodward, and the film told the story surrounding the Watergate scandal. Perhaps you just had a long day at the office. ;)

[Ducimus]

I can't resist....

A comedian said it best awhile ago, not my words but he makes a good point.


You may have noticed that there's one thing I don't complain about: Politicians. Everybody complains about politicians. Everybody says, "They suck". But where do people think these politicians come from? They don't fall out of the sky. They don't pass through a membrane from another reality. No, they come from American homes, American families, American schools, American churches, American businesses, and they're elected by American voters. This is the best we can do, folks. It's what our system produces: Garbage in, garbage out.

Ignorant citizens elect ignorant leaders, it's as simple as that. And term limits don't help. All you do is get a brand new bunch of ignorant leaders. So maybe it's not the politians who suck; maybe it's something else. Like the public. "The public sucks! **** hope!" That would make a nice realistic campaign slogan wouldn't it?

Because if everything is really the fault of the polititians, where are all the bright, honest, intelligent Americans who are ready to step in and replace them, to save the nation and lead the way. Where are those people hiding? The truth is, we don't have people like that. Everyone's at the mall, scratching his balls, reaching for a wallet in a fanny pack and buying sneakers with lights in them.

M'kay, im gonna scamper back into the SH4 forum now, i can't talk politics and not get pissed off. i only came here to see how that "evil" thread was doing. lol.

[Tchocky]

Like the public. "The public sucks! **** hope!" That would make a nice realistic campaign slogan wouldn't it?

I'd vote for that, Ducimus :)

[fatty]

Political Correctness and liberal stand point has gone to far, the Labour party jump on the conservatives and call them right wing, please don't make me laugh.

I think you missed the point STEED. This kind of blasting on parties - or as SUBMAN rightfully said, demonizing them - replaces cooperation and sensible governing.

My country's current Conservative government fell a few notches in my book when they booted an MP out of their party for voting against their budget out of concern for his own constituents.

My question is, since I've only been interested in politics for a few years, is this really something new?

That compass quiz is fun. I always land dead centre, which is good because I think of myself as a centrist.

[AVGWarhawk]

I believe the movie was called, "All the Presidents Men" were Robert Redford was running for president. He was made to look great...flawless....his opponents look bad. The movie consisted of pushing popularity into the White House at all costs.
I think you are getting this a little mixed up. In the film "All the Presidents Men", Robert Redford played the role of Washington Post journalist Bob Woodward, and the film told the story surrounding the Watergate scandal. Perhaps you just had a long day at the office. ;)

I was not sure of the movie:oops:. I just recall at the end, making the White House after all the fighting and slight of hand, the character said "What do I do know?" Yes, always a long day at the office.;)

[Sailor Steve]

I believe the movie was called, "All the Presidents Men" were Robert Redford was running for president. He was made to look great...flawless....his opponents look bad. The movie consisted of pushing popularity into the White House at all costs.

I think you are getting this a little mixed up. In the film "All the Presidents Men", Robert Redford played the role of Washington Post journalist Bob Woodward, and the film told the story surrounding the Watergate scandal. Perhaps you just had a long day at the office. ;)
The movie he's thinking of was The Candidate. Redford is running for the senate, not the presidency, and it's against an incumbent who can't lose; so the run him just to have some opposition. When he does win, he doesn't want to be there.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068334/

[waste gate]

I can't remember who said it, but it seems appropriate and accurate;

"Every country gets the government it deserves."

One can extrapulate from that the politicians and the political dialog.

[Skybird]

I can't remember who said it, but it seems appropriate and accurate;

"Every country gets the government it deserves."

One can extrapulate from that the politicians and the political dialog.
That was me, refering to what I believe is a Chinese proverb.

[Yahoshua]

Economic Left/Right: -0.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.97


Somewhat of a strange place for me, but oh well.

[waste gate]

I can't remember who said it, but it seems appropriate and accurate;

"Every country gets the government it deserves."

One can extrapulate from that the politicians and the political dialog.
That was me, refering to what I believe is a Chinese proverb.

Aristotle said "Every country gets the government it deserves"

[The Avon Lady]

Aristotle said "Every country gets the government it deserves"
Just imagine what the US could have had (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=514_1187739460)! :rotfl:

[Skybird]

Aristoteles? Now I wanted to know for sure, and searched for it. And I found it:

it sometimes is understood to be by Anonymous, sometimes by Joseph Marie de Maistre (http://msd.twoday.net/stories/216032/) (1753-1821), who is quoted word-by-word:
"Jedes Volk (people) hat die Regierung, die es verdient." (every people has the government it deserves)

Whereas "Jedes Land (country) hat die Regierung die es verdient" (every nation has the government it deserves) is attributed to all and nobody, and thus, Anonymous.

Google did not give me a link connecting it to Aristoteles - only to Aristoteles commenting on issues on states and people in general. Since these "proverbs" are general statements by their contents anyway, the question of their authors probably cannot be completely answered anyway - it probably already has been put by thousands of persons in these or comparing words.

And probably in China as well (which would fit perfectly the self-understanding of their historic emperors and bureaucratic elite anyway). :)

[The Avon Lady]

Aristoteles? Now I wanted to know for sure, and searched for it. And I found it:

it sometimes is understood to be by Anonymous, sometimes by Joseph Marie de Maistre (http://msd.twoday.net/stories/216032/) (1753-1821), who is quoted word-by-word:
"Jedes Volk (people) hat die Regierung, die es verdient." (every people has the government it deserves)

Whereas "Jedes Land (country) hat die Regierung die es verdient" (every nation has the government it deserves) is attributed to all and nobody, and thus, Anonymous.

Google did not give me a link connecting it to Aristoteles - only to Aristoteles commenting on issues on states and people in general. Since these "proverbs" are general statements by their contents anyway, the question of their authors probably cannot be completely answered anyway - it probably already has been put by thousands of persons in these or comparing words.

And probably in China as well (which would fit perfectly the self-understanding of their historic emperors and bureaucratic elite anyway). :)
Let's give credit where credit is due.

For 3500 years, every Jewish mother has told her children at some point in their lives: "you get what you deserve." :yep:

[Tchocky]

Ignorant citizens elect ignorant leaders, it's as simple as that. And term limits don't help. All you do is get a brand new bunch of ignorant leaders. So maybe it's not the politians who suck; maybe it's something else. Like the public. "The public sucks! **** hope!" That would make a nice realistic campaign slogan wouldn't it?


http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/08/22/3344/print/

Oh dear.

[tycho102]

Just thinking here, and the one thing that troubles me more than anything else about US politics is not the Democrats or Republicans, but how they both act. I mean, now days they are at each others throats
I personally think that is the problem -- they're NOT at each other's throats. We don't have enough physical confrontations in Congress.

I've mulled the issue over for awhile. Term limits aren't going to do a damn thing -- the entire system has to be altered. If you stood a good chance of getting your ass kicked when you stood up on the bench, politicans would have to have both moral and physical courage to hold their office.

[wetwarev7]

Just thinking here, and the one thing that troubles me more than anything else about US politics is not the Democrats or Republicans, but how they both act. I mean, now days they are at each others throats
I personally think that is the problem -- they're NOT at each other's throats. We don't have enough physical confrontations in Congress.

I've mulled the issue over for awhile. Term limits aren't going to do a damn thing -- the entire system has to be altered. If you stood a good chance of getting your ass kicked when you stood up on the bench, politicans would have to have both moral and physical courage to hold their office.

Heh...Arnold Shwarzeneger would definatly be president if that were the case. :rotfl:

The term limits are there to keep someone from forming a dictatorship, not to increase the chances of getting a decent president. I think the problem boils down to the expense of running for office.

Only those who are rich enough can run for president. That's why we have people who may come from an American family but don't really seem like they would fit in at your local nieghborhood block party. How many of us are rich enough to run for president?

Clinton is. Bush is. Paris Hilton is.(Notice a pattern?)

It kind of makes me wonder if having enough money to run for president stunts your growth. If you don't have to actually work a 9-5 job to make ends meet, wouldn't you miss out on a lot of challenges along the way, which, if faced, actually inspire personal growth and 'common sense'? For example, I keep my mathmatical skills razor sharp balancing my checkbook every week, and making each dollar cover 2 dollars worth of bills. :hmm:

How can you truly relate to the common man when you don't have to walk in his shoes?

It just seems to me like the old upper class/lower class differences that have plauged governed people for all time.

What I'd loke to see are better goverenment programs to help pay for the common man to run for president. They would still need the background(political experience, etc..), but I think the gov should help pay for all the advertisements and what-not. Heck, running for president ought to be a paid job to begin with, just to make it available for anyone. Maybe then we might get some 'sane' people running for office. (Along with all the nutcases :p )

[Sailor Steve]

The term limits are there to keep someone from forming a dictatorship, not to increase the chances of getting a decent president.
No, the term limit is there because after 144 years of presidents refusing to serve more than twice, a president (Franklin Roosevelt) got elected four times. The opposing party quickly passed the 22nd Amendment, limiting the president to two terms. It passed in 1947 and was ratified by the states in 1951. Of course the Republicans immediately got their own guy (Dwight Eisenhower) elected, and have been kicking themselves ever since.

[SUBMAN1]

I can't remember who said it, but it seems appropriate and accurate;

"Every country gets the government it deserves."

One can extrapulate from that the politicians and the political dialog.

You beat me to it! Argghh! I was just about to post that when I saw your post.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

I personally think that is the problem -- they're NOT at each other's throats. We don't have enough physical confrontations in Congress.

I've mulled the issue over for awhile. Term limits aren't going to do a damn thing -- the entire system has to be altered. If you stood a good chance of getting your ass kicked when you stood up on the bench, politicans would have to have both moral and physical courage to hold their office.

If you watch the debates on the house floor, I'd have to disagree. They throw snide remarks at each other, then they march out into a press conference and talk about how bad the other party is doing, and not about what 'they' are doing. THat is what I mean by that.

-S

[Rockin Robbins]

Our problem is that we and most of the western world is busy pretenting that we are a "democracy" when we have not the education to know that democracy is two cats and a mouse voting over what's for dinner. Democracy and tyranny are identical in effect and both are equally to be avoided.

In a republic, the rights of the people are protected by laws, which have power over the people and the government. These laws protect the mouse from the two cats who would surely vote to eat him. When people start to disrespect law and start getting all starry-eyed at the concept of democracy, there is hell to pay.

Guess what: we're paying it. Ducimus quoted it. The public sucks. It is getting what it deserves. The average person on the street can talk for hours about the dynamics of "American Idol" and their eyes glaze over when you try to talk economics with them. They will throng to the polls without a clue of what they are voting for. The vote for Hillary because she is a woman or Obama because he is black or Rudy because they like his accent. They don't have the slightest idea what their candidate wants to accomplish. The entire western world is quite lucky we have it as well as we do. Only private enterprise is keeping us vital and free. Government is failing us all because we are failing our governments.

I will now follow Ducimus' example and return to the SH4 forums where sanity reigns.