View Full Version : Combat Mission: Shock Force
Tikigod
08-20-07, 12:49 PM
This game looks pretty good. A modern version of Theatre of War:
http://www.battlefront.com/products/cmsf/
Anyone try it yet?
Tikigod
08-21-07, 11:25 AM
I just tried the demo. I don't like it. Pathfinding is horrid and you cant really control weapons. You can only assign targets and firing arcs. Then the AI determine what weapon to use against target. Very boring game. :nope:
I don't think "modern version of Theater of War" is fair. More like a "modern version of Combat Mission". :hmm: I suggest you consider the concept of CM games, which is quite different from the rest of the real-time wargame/strategy bunch.
Still haven't gotten the hang of it, but if we see it as a CM successor, it promises to be most excellent. Big CM addict here!
Tikigod
08-22-07, 11:58 AM
Pros
Troops can take Javelin and extra ammo off vehicles.
Animations are very good for both infantry and vehicles.
3-D Model detail for units is excellent.
Can play as a turn based or real time strategy game.
Can enter buildings and put troops on each level.
Can call in airstrikes with AH-64 Apaches or A-10's (precision or area)
Can call in mortar or artillery (armor piercing, anti-personnel, or mix using line precision or area targeting)
Can button and unbutton vehicle gunners.
There are various types of damage to units (engines, tracks, equipment failure, no common death effect)
Weather effects direction of smoke when its deployed.
Chain of Command communication system boosts or reduces combat effectiveness of units in combat.
Both occupied buildings and vehicles can be targeted with javelin.
Buildings break apart and collapse with damage (layers of floors and walls of buildings collapse, pretty nice effects)
Sound Effects (delay of impacts after visuals at distance)
Cons
Can't call in artillery smoke.
Ballistics of gunfire is generic.
Pathfinding is bad (navigating through tight areas sometimes gets vehicles confused)
No coop mode.
Missions are time-based (so you have to use rush tactics)
Can't turn off music or loud background sound effects such as wind. (the only sound option you get for game is to turn all sound on or off)
Troops usually get exhausted after walking a quarter mile and require rest.
Can't treat or extract wounded.
Can't pick the types of ammo you want to use on target or when you want to use it.
Can't tell troops to hold fire (they automatically engage when they see enemy) so there is no point to send in a recon or observation team.
No use of helicopters to drop or extract troops quickly.
No UAV's
Cons
Missions are time-based (so you have to use rush tactics)
Troops usually get exhausted after walking a quarter mile and require rest.
Can't tell troops to hold fire (they automatically engage when they see enemy) so Time: you have to draw the line somewhere, and think of PBEM matches. Also military operations usually have a timelimit don't you think?
Troops get exhausted: depends on the type of movement, I think US infantry don't get tired when moved around with the ordinary "move" command anything else is tiring to infantry (especially "fast" and "slow")
Hold fire: you have to assign fire arcs, so the unit will only fire at enemies inside that arc unless they are threatend by a really high priority target outside the arc.
AirborneTD
08-23-07, 07:16 AM
I am a huge CM fan but I will not be getting this title anytime soon. The "Cons" above are one reason. Battles with time limits do not allow proper planning and recon. Why bother? The sound options just seem silly. I never play with music on (esp with wargames).
The music is only in the menu, not in the 3d during the actual battle. But it gets annyoing really soon to be honest :damn:
Well watching the CMx2 forums on BFC for the last month, looks like most of the CM fans do not like the new title.
Seems like the main problem of this game is the 1x1 simulation. The game engine tracks every single bullet, but since the devs had a limited time\budget this whole tracking\calculating stress on the game engine leaves it with no resources for complex AI behaviour (TacAi).
The whole AI system is based on scripts and is very limited (great impact on replaybility).
Add to this the lack of random maps,huge files for PBEM,no WEGO for online play (the same techincal reason for huge PBEM files), and a weird interface...
Not too promising.:cry:
I am a huge CM fan but I will not be getting this title anytime soon. The "Cons" above are one reason. Battles with time limits do not allow proper planning and recon. Why bother? The sound options just seem silly. I never play with music on (esp with wargames).
But you had time limits in CM1 as well. It's exactly the same deal. The only difference is we used to call each minute a 'turn' rather than a minute. You can still play it as turn based if you want as well. Having said that, the 'time limits' in most of the missions I've played so far seem more generous than they were in previous games. I'm having a lot of fun with the real time mode, though. It introduced a certain frisson to the situation. I also don't recall ever hearing in game music in CMSF either aside from the menu screens before you play.
As for the rest of the above cons. I agree that Pathfinding is no where near as good as it should be just now and, on the whole, the orders menu seems quite a bit less flexible than in the last two CM1 games. I'm not worried about the lack of helecoptor Insertions/ extractions given that it is primarilly a Stryker brigade / mechanised infantry simulator, although it would have been nice to have medevacs in there.
Arty and CAS is great fun to use, although there is a massive tempation to just flatten everything you can with it and keep your troops hidden away. I would like to see scenario designers make more liberal use of the 'Preserve' objectives simply to stop players blowing away whole cities in the hunt for a single insurgent.
The scenario editor is pretty good as well. Evolution rather than revolution over the previous versions but it is now much more possible to creat very realistic looking urban areas which CM1 sucked at. Several little niggles (we were told we could place walls whereever we wanted for example, but you can't - it's the same 'middle of square' dealio from CM1 and, irritatingly, there are no water tiles. Or Bridges. There are balconies, though, ans the building can be 8 stories high.
In terms of being the finished article CMSF has a long way to go, but I can't help getting excited when I think about what is to come. We have a US Marine module followed by a British one at least and who knows what they will add. And after that we have the WW2 game to come. I think that one might be something very special indeed.
Smaragdadler
05-07-08, 03:27 AM
CMSF is now on 1.08. There is much improvment since 1.0 and the first module (US-Marines) will come out "soon". Some thread about lates situation from Battlefront:
http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=52;t=004118;p=1
Personally I would say since 1.07 CMSF is on the right track. Best hardcore wargame in the moment. One should try the latest 1.08 demo.
Indeed. I would say CMSF is well past its teething troubles now. The support has been very good - it's just a shame they put it out in such a crappy state. I hear the same goes for Theatre of War. Battlefront had better keep this experience in mind - this doesn't do good things for their marketing. While the game is great at 1.07+, it took a long time for it to get there...
And the Marine Module is about to be released:
http://www.battlefront-store.com:8080//index.php?option=com_myblog&show=The-Modular-Marine.html&Itemid=213
I made small '80s Afghanistan scenario on a slightly customized QB map (Red on Red). Does anyone want to test it out in a PBEM with me? (CCIP, what is with our CMBB operation in the first place; are you busy with other things? Haven't heared anything from you for quite a while now..)
I'd really like to build some Chechnya scenarios, especially from the early action in Grozny. I even managed to dig up quite a few authentic map scans and accounts from soldiers in Russian for this, but I just don't have the time. I'd say it'd be some really interesting red-vs-irregular action, where the efficiency and experience advantages actually lie with the irregulars. Would make for some brutal urban combat.
Pretty much all the units and weapons needed are already in the game. If only we could get them to stop speaking arabic :)
PeriscopeDepth
05-08-08, 11:02 AM
I'd really like to build some Chechnya scenarios, especially from the early action in Grozny. I even managed to dig up quite a few authentic map scans and accounts from soldiers in Russian for this, but I just don't have the time. I'd say it'd be some really interesting red-vs-irregular action, where the efficiency and experience advantages actually lie with the irregulars. Would make for some brutal urban combat.
Pretty much all the units and weapons needed are already in the game. If only we could get them to stop speaking arabic :)
I think there's two Chechen War scens at CMMods.com if you didn't know. :)
PD
I'd really like to build some Chechnya scenarios, especially from the early action in Grozny. I even managed to dig up quite a few authentic map scans and accounts from soldiers in Russian for this, but I just don't have the time. Building maps is very time consuming if you want to do it right. I tried to help myself with an existing QB map and modify it here or there for my needs. If you want to build a more or less historic accurate scenario this not a choice in most cases of course.
Maybe even more time consuming is the programming of the AI plans and testing them to verify they work as you expect them to work. The editor definitely lacks some debug functions for this purpose and what I even find very strange is that AI plans are exclusively time oriented. You cannot make the AI to do something when they spot certain enemy units, or enemy units touch certain areas of the map etc. etc. (all the stuff you can "easily" do in Operation Flashpoint or Armed Assault).
Smaragdadler
05-08-08, 10:33 PM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think for that you need AI-trigger plans. I think I had read in some post at Battlefront, that they are "on the list".
To be fair about Combat Mission one should not forget, that all the stuff is coded basically by one guy. So it will take time, but it will come some day.
Smaragdadler
09-27-08, 12:33 AM
Marines modul is out. Patch 1.10 for CMSF-only will follow soon.
Much improvments (TacAI, AI arty, cooking off ammo, new units etc.)
http://www.battlefront.com/images/stories/CMSF/Marines/cmsf-marines_cover_3d-200.png
CMSF:Marines is the first Module to the Combat Mission Shock Force modern tactical ground combat simulation from Battlefront.
It introduces new weapons, equipment and formations of the United States Marine Corps, Syrian Ariborne Special Forces units,
as well as many game engine enhancements, dozens of new scenario and quick battle maps and a completely new "Semper Fi, Syria!" campaign.
CMSF Marines v1.10 FEATURES
INTERFACE
* Movement Destination Highlights: When placing a waypoint over ground terrain, the destination "action spot" is highlighted in yellow. Teams B and C (if any) also have their adjacent destinations highlighted when plotting moves and when giving facing orders attached to a final waypoint. Note that final facing is important for positioning "wing man" teams, so you should attach facing orders to final waypoints as needed.
* New Color for KIA: The colored "highlight disc" for dead soldiers is brown, to distinguish them from seriously wounded soldiers whose disc remains red. "Buddy aid" can still be given to dead soldiers, but all it does is reclaim their ammo and weapons if possible. "Aid" to dead soldiers is pretty quick.
* Target Arc and Facing orders may be given with mouse clicks that go "off map".
* When placing a target arc, the distance in meters is displayed.
* Disembarking troops may attach Face, Deploy, and Pop Smoke orders to waypoints.
* "Target" command is available in the editor to check LOS (no targeting orders are saved).
ARTILLERY AND AIR SUPPORT
* New sound effects for incoming rounds, jets, helicopters, cannon fire, bombs, spotters, controllers.
* Computer player uses artillery and air support dynamically throughout the game, not just pre-planned strikes.
* Smoke artillery missions (and computer-player AI Support Plans may use it)
* Aircraft no longer drop unguided ("dumb") bombs to reflect recent/current loadout standards for tactical combat air support. All bombs are laser- or GPS-guided.
* F-15, F-16, and FA-18 no longer expend cannon rounds on ground targets. Pilots have informed us that in a high-threat environment it would be rare for cannon to be used against ground targets.
* Respond faster to "cease fire" orders.
* Missions cannot be "adjusted" while they are still being "received".
* "Emergency" missions are not available for pre-planned artillery strikes because they are not necessary.
* Hydra-70 rockets are slightly more accurate.
INFANTRY MOVEMENT
* Fire on the Move: Moving soldiers will sometimes stop and take a quick shot at nearby/exposed enemy troops, then resume moving.
- Soldiers are more likely to stop and shoot at enemies in front of them, less to the sides and rear.
- Accuracy is modestly reduced.
- Pause to fire most often: SLOW and MOVE (and HUNT stops the whole unit to engage).
- Pause to fire least often: FAST, and the moving soldiers in ASSAULT.
- If moving FAST or ASSAULT the soldier will not stop to reload. He will keep on moving.
* Moving Under Fire: Moving troops that come under heavy fire will only switch to Slow (i.e. crawling) if they are so tired that they could otherwise only use walking speed (i.e. not even Quick). Otherwise they try to move faster. And sometimes they cancel their move altogether and seek nearby cover.
* Moving infantry does a better job of spotting enemies.
* Soldiers do a better job finding ridgeline positions even when "heavy" cover like trees is also present.
* Soldiers position themselves better at corners of buildings and walls.
* Soldiers move faster with Fast move, even when carrying heavy loads.
* When soldiers using HUNT get too tired, they stop and pause for 90 seconds instead of changing to MOVE.
* Soldiers move along trench lines better.
* Sound effects for footsteps.
* Squads and teams are a little less likely to "stay pinned" if they have a very short move ordered to better cover than they are in.
* Soldiers who move Slow (i.e. crawl) will tend to keep their heads down for a little while after reaching the destination even if there is no incoming fire and no enemies are spotted.
* Soldiers won't move out of good protection into poor protection just to gain a line of fire.
* Faster dismount movement.
* Individuals soldiers will act upon facing orders at the new waypoint without waiting for their teammates to arrive first.
* Waypoints to vehicles are drawn with a slight elevation to make it clear that it's an "embark".
VEHICLES
* New vehicles:
- M1A1SA TUSK Abrams tank
- M1A2 SEP TUSK Abrams tank
- M2A3 IFV Bradley with explosive reactive armor (ERA)
- M3A3 CFV Bradley with explosive reactive armor (ERA)
- M7A3 BFIST Bradley with explosive reactive armor (ERA)
- M1114 HMMV armed with Mk.19 grenade launcher
* Improved damage algorithms for external systems on armored vehicles (e.g. optics, smoke generators, lasers, missile launchers).
* Secondary explosions for burning vehicles as ammunition "cooks off".
* Dust and smoke from heavy rounds impacting on a vehicle will not hide that vehicle from its attackers.
* Improved vehicle navigation in narrow urban spaces.
* Hiding vehicles that are struck by a projectile, or that spot an enemy vehicle targeting them will automatically un-hide.
* Humvees upgraded with "Frag-5" armor, carry more ammo, and all have radios.
* Vehicle-mounted automatic weapons tend to fire slightly longer bursts, especially at other vehicles. Exception: the BMP-2 cannon can't fire long bursts without needing aim adjustments.
* Tank gunners are quicker at adjusting turret rotation to counterbalance if the hull starts rotating.
* ATGM-armed vehicles will fire missiles at ground area targets if ordered to do so.
* Light vehicles (like Humvees) start the game "opened up" by default.
* VIED detonation AI improved so it does a better job destroying enemy AFVs.
* Big knock-out hits are more likely to cause vehicles to burn and sometimes blast out a crater beneath the vehicle.
GRAPHICS
* Big explosions near the camera "flash" the viewscreen briefly.
* Improved airburst graphics.
* Improved highway graphics.
* Collapsed buildings kick up more dust.
* Frame rate improvement for maps with large numbers of roads, highways, grass, brush, or small rocks.
MISCELLANEOUS
* Internet Play: improved speed and reliability.
* "Elite" mode changed so that friendly troops are always displayed, even when not spotted by the current unit. A new mode called "Iron" behaves like the old Elite mode.
* Explosions: the simulation of blast and shrapnel effects has been improved. The main thing you'll likely notice is that huge weapons like airplane bombs are a bit less able to cause casualties at long range.
* Bunkers
- Handled better by computer player
- Protect correctly versus artillery fire
- Correctly simulate top hits from Javelins
* Soldiers' carrying capacity reduced to a more realistic weight limit.
* Spotting info is "passed along" to friendly units that are immediately adjacent (roughly within 25m or so) much like it already works with passing it along the chain of command.
* Soldiers in sniper and javelin and forward observer teams (and similar) are less likely to use their weapons aggressively except in self-defense (not including the "main weapon" soldier, e.g. the sniper or javelin gunner).
* Improved selection and organization of soldiers when splitting into teams, and also when later rejoining.
* Improved damage model for trees.
* Machineguns may "deploy" inside buildings, though assembly time is 2+ minutes.
* Seriously-wounded (red disc) soldiers who have not received "buddy aid" (i.e. disappeared) by the end of the game have a 25% chance of becoming KIA in the final tally.
* M4 rifles observe the built-in burst limit of 3 rounds.
* Smarter AI for switching weapons (if a soldier has two) for area fire.
* If a soldier becomes a casualty while in the act of throwing a grenade, the grenade will fall to the side (not too far away) and explode, generally with bad consequences for friendly troops.
* Syrian 30mm ammo used by BMP series vehicles is HE-incendiary.
* Aim time for Javelin is longer (roughly 20 seconds depending on the soldier).
* Guided missiles use flatter flight paths.
* On Veteran and Elite levels, you will not hear voices of unspotted enemies.
* Sound effects for weapon reloading.
* New background sounds for day and night.
* RPG-29 rate of fire reduced.
* Added a "special equipment icon" for night vision gear.
* Display is slightly brighter during overcast night conditions (no change to simulation).
-> www.battlefront.com (http://www.battlefront.com)
I'm very much enjoying the Marines module. The new sound fx, in particular, are almost worth shelling out the money for alone!
Aside from the many changes to artillery, the AI and so forth it seems to have been really well optimized. It's playing so much smoother for me than the vanilla game ever did. It's playing so well, in fact, i've ramped up the graphics without issue and this is taking into account the crap emergency GPU 'upgrade' i was forced into when my beloved 7950 died a couple of months ago.
Good to hear Egan. I still haven't got the module, but I plan to get to it soon enough. It already ran very well on my laptop since 1.08, so this could only be an improvement.
The list of fixes/improvements looks darn impressive too.
What ho, CCIP. Long time etcetera...Hope you're all back in one piece and out of hospital. How were the nurses? :p
They're going to have to fix up the path-finding (with the Marines, not the nurses...) but that's really the only major issue I've seen so far. They seem to be scaling back support for SF anyway. I would imagine we might get one more patch of fixes for big bugs and then whatever comes with the British pack before CM:Normandy properly goes into production.
despite my misgivings when they first announced the game I've actually had a lot of fun with SF. In fact, there are one or two scenarios I've played where I simply haven't had as much fun with a Battlefront game since I first got CMBO all those years ago.
I just read a post by Steve from Battlefront over on the official site in which he claims they sold more copies of the Marines add on in the first three days than they expected to sell during it's entire 'lifetime.'
Wow! if accurate, this can only be good news for all of us!
Well done Battlefront! :up:
Now, I would be disturbed if they sold more copies of it in total than CMSF itself :lol:
From reading the feedback, it seems to me like Marines/1.10 is basically what CMSF should've been when it was released. Hopefully BF sees these sales figures as a sign that quality can translate directly into profit, and avoid the premature releases as they had done with CMSF and Theater of War in the future. I think we've been telling them that for a while, hopefully they'll see the truth of it now at least...
CaptHawkeye
10-07-08, 02:19 PM
This game was made using the same engine Theatre of War was on? No thank you. Unless they found a way to break the formulaic gameplay of "I attack you/you attack me" i'm not interested.
You could probably fix ToW's boring gameplay though if you just made the gameplay area WAAAAY bigger and had a strategic map a la Total War. So things like road control, flanking, and terrain actually mattered. As it was you'd think Theatre of War was in World War 1. Frankly, that's a problem i've noticed with a lot RTS games themed in World War 2. The gameplay is too fixed on bases and "lol techs". So the game ends up being more like World War 1.
Nope, this is Combat Mission. There is no relation between it and Theater of War besides the publisher.
You're definitely missing the point of this one otherwise. Combat Mission games are definitely not everyone's cup of tea, but they've got a level of depth that's difficult to compare to anything here. It's not at all about bases and "lol techs". There is no bases and "lol techs", there's only objectives. Once you understand the abstractions behind objectives, it becomes really engrossing. And honestly, I've never had the same level of immersion/suspension of disbelief in any wargame as in CM. It's always 'felt' right on to me, as far as realism goes. Though I have to admit, occasionally the TacAI botches things more than I like it to, occasionally going from having a mind of its own to simply being brainless and/or blind - but this isn't the norm and only rarely spoils the fun for me. Unfortunately this is more frequent in CMSF than earlier CM games, largely due to the somewhat problematic 1:1 representation.
Also, the real-time mode is of limited use here. It's really a game meant to be played in 1-minute turns (WEGO system - both players plan for a turn, then watch it play out).
And you haven't seen anything if you haven't played CM in multiplayer. That game just shines in Play-by-email sessions. It's really what it does best. And far from being "fixed" and "WWI-like", against a smart opponent in a fluid scenario, there is a lot of tactical surprises to be had here. Although of course, real war is far from the running gunfight that some imagine it to be. Using cover and terrain and managing line of sight are the very first things you HAVE to learn in CM to even survive a scenario.
CaptHawkeye
10-07-08, 02:37 PM
It would really help then if they had some kind of demo. The fanboys succeded in tricking me into believeing that ToW was a good game "with the new patch" which was comically untrue. Most of my problem with strategy games is the usually the unwieldy AI which ALWAYS needs to be micromanaged.
"Hitman Actual to Godfather"
"Godfather..."
"Can I throw a grenade? We need you to click the button on the unit special abilities tab please."
"..."
See, that's part of why I like CM, units have a mind of their own. A big part of the game is the TacAI - technically, you don't even control the units in this game, you just give them orders and then the TacAI looks at the situation and executes them at its discretion/ability. Or not. Which is what some people find absolutely infuriating about CMSF because the TacAI can be either too smart or too stupid and not perform what the player intends it to, choosing instead to take cover or change position. Units will sometimes blatantly ignore orders and execute their own priorities instead (whether it is, in your view as commander, good for the overall battle or not). But it is, for a game AI anyway, pretty good at having an interest in its own survival and in shooting the enemy without constant micromanagement. In fact the game's very structure, the 60-second turns during which you can only watch and not make any orders until the turn is over, prevents micromanagement as such. The game does have a real-time mode, but I find it pretty much impractical for any battles where you have more than a company of troops/vehicles to look after.
Not to be a marketer for CM, but I really do appreciate it a lot for the fact that it gives you a role closer to that of a commander rather than an omniscient "god" who controls the units' every move. You have limitations on control over your units, and your units have limitations on their response to your orders. Feels quite realistic to me on that.
darius359au
10-07-08, 04:59 PM
It would really help then if they had some kind of demo. The fanboys succeded in tricking me into believeing that ToW was a good game "with the new patch" which was comically untrue. Most of my problem with strategy games is the usually the unwieldy AI which ALWAYS needs to be micromanaged.
"Hitman Actual to Godfather"
"Godfather..."
"Can I throw a grenade? We need you to click the button on the unit special abilities tab please."
"..."
Unfortunately the demo is 1.07 only at the moment , but there should be a 1.10 version released in the next few weeks.
This game was made using the same engine Theatre of War was on? No thank you. Unless they found a way to break the formulaic gameplay of "I attack you/you attack me" i'm not interested.
You could probably fix ToW's boring gameplay though if you just made the gameplay area WAAAAY bigger and had a strategic map a la Total War. So things like road control, flanking, and terrain actually mattered. As it was you'd think Theatre of War was in World War 1. Frankly, that's a problem i've noticed with a lot RTS games themed in World War 2. The gameplay is too fixed on bases and "lol techs". So the game ends up being more like World War 1.
I'm probably doing you a disservice but your reference to Total War makes me wonder whether Combat Mission Strike Force is the sort of game you might be looking for: CCIP does a pretty fair summing up . It's a war game with the focus on tactical realism. No bases or 'lol techs' (you'll have to excuse me on that one - I have no idea what they are.) just a few units and your own tactical incompetence...:D Calling SF a 'Modern tactical simulator' sounds like hyperbole but is fairly close to the mark. It isn't an RTS. It just isn't in the same way Falcon 4 isn't. I think. :-?
I remember a probably apocryphal story from a few years ago, just after CMBB came out, in which a poster on a 'Red Alert' forum complained that he had bought CMBB but hated it because it was so buggy that whenever he tried a tank rush, all his panzers got destroyed. ;) It's definitely a game that benefits from knowing what the hell is going on.
Anyway, if I DID do you a disservice I didn't mean to. It's A game that really isn't to everyone's taste. It's pretty hardcore and at the end of the day it IS 'one guy fighting another guy.' There is a degree of micromanagement but it quickly gets so you don't even notice it. It's also a game that might take a few days to get under your skin. It can look ugly, be extremely frustrating but I love it. I just wish i wasn't so utterly miserably crap at it. You really should try the demo and see it for yourself. I hope you love it. :up:
Interested in CCIP's comments on WEGO versus RT. I only play RT now on Vet mode and I make full use of pausing when issuing orders or changing things around. I don't ever want to go back to WEGO again, it just feels wrong now. Having said that, i prefer scenarios of a company level or below. I perhaps should give it a try with larger formations and see how I get on.
Well, one thing that I really miss from RT is the ability to replay (unless they suddenly included that in a patch). RT, for me, becomes a real pressure on my attention span and often causes me to start micromanaging everything, which is not what I want to be doing in any case. It gets especially problematic where I have more than one area of the map where my units are operating since I now have to take my eyes off part of my force and then wonder just what happened. Now that's not unrealistic, but it is a bit frustrating for me to not even get my lesson from a mistake, so to speak. With replays after WEGO turns, it's not a problem at all.
With larger formations it starts getting pretty impossible to keep track of what your units are doing, basically, and while RT lets you fine-tune your orders better it comes at the cost of coordination between forces scattered around the battlefield which I think is key to these types of battles - and this is where again it slips into becoming more like the RTS-type micromanagement, flipping back and forth between different parts of the map while the battle goes on, trying to figure out what's happening.
WEGO definitely has a weakness in that it is basically arbitrary - that is, the choice of 1-minute turns is sensible design but it's pretty much just a random limitation on the player's control ability and has nothing to do with realism besides limiting the player's ability to micromanage. For me it still works out well in practice, though, and it's especially nice for PBEM where it gives games a nice structure.
So yes, I think I prefer WEGO because of the replay ability and the limitation it places on micromanaging your units. Otherwise there's also the fact that I like the slower pace and the lack of constant pressure. I like it when CM is a slow but at the same time intense game. Ends up being really absorbing.
Calling SF a 'Modern tactical simulator' sounds like hyperbole but is fairly close to the mark. It isn't an RTS. It just isn't in the same way Falcon 4 isn't. I think.
Why, don't you know Falcon 4 is actually a self-playing operational wargame with a little flight simulator buried somewhere inside it? :D
(I've been playing a bit of RedViper in the last few days, too...)
Aha! Is that what Falcon's called these days? Over at Frugal's they still lynch noobs who call it a 'game.' :p
I played RV briefly and really liked it. Liked it more than OF in fact, probably because I could install it over Allied Force without problems and I'm not sure you could ever do that with OF. Nothing wrong with OF, actually, but it means having to drag out my original Falcon disk from where ever the heck it is.
As for real time play in SF, I just pause a lot. :D And I mean a lot. Anyways, not entirely knowing whats going on is part of the charm in those tight, high speed and scary urban firefights SF is now doing so well!
I've finally got around to playing the Marines campaign now. First mission was fun enough. Can't wait to try the second.
Smaragdadler
12-23-08, 10:25 AM
CMSF v1.11 is now out.
CMSF v1.11 FEATURES
Turn-Based Replay
Turn-based action is pre-computed with a "blue bar" before the action is displayed. This allows for improved performance of large battles on older computers, and for convenient "skipping ahead" in the early turns of a battle before enemy contact.
Craters, vehicle bog status, damaged buildings, walls, and trees display correctly (not too early).
Smoother vehicle and soldier movement.
The Fast-forward and Rewind buttons normally change time by 5 seconds, but will change by 10 seconds if the Control key is pressed, and 20 seconds if the Shift key is pressed.
Incoming rounds from air support attacks are displayed at the correct elevation.
Moving vehicles sound better in email replay.
Cease-fires and surrenders activated in mid-replay don't "forget" what happened later in replay when calculating victory.
Correct animation is shown after a soldier switches weapons.
Corrected a problem that sometimes caused unbuttoned vehicle crewmen not to be shown in replay.
Corrected a rare case where, after replay, a casualty could be shown using the animation he had just before becoming a casualty.Vehicles
Improved pathfinding and obstacle avoidance.
Vehicle secondary explosions do not continue for too long in email games.
Improved coordination between the rotations of vehicle hulls and turrets.
Fixed a bug that sometimes caused vehicle ammo to increase.
Stryker MGS uses an improved APFSDS round, the M900, rather than the M833.
LAV-25 will use its coax MG, not its 25mm cannon for "Target Light".
LAV-A2 series armor thickness reduced.
Modified ammo loadouts on early-model T-72 tanks.
MTVR trucks have a new floating icon image.
In the M7A3 Bradley BFIST and the M1131 Stryker FSV, if an artillery or air spotter/observer/controller is riding as a passenger, he will switch seats with a vehicle crewman so he can use the vehicle's powerful FS-3 optical equipment. Note that the vehicle must unbutton to use the FS-3.
The Platoon HQ Stryker ESV, with only one crewman (a driver) will use its MG if a passenger is aboard to man it.
Corrected a problem that sometimes caused ricochets off vehicle armor not to be displayed.
Fixed "twitchy" vehicle movement when moving to a destination very close to another vehicle.
Crews will not retain a pop-smoke targeting order after bailing out of their vehicle.
Fixed a potential problem with a BMP-3 crew re-entering the vehicle but then not using its weapons.
Passengers consistently close the rear doors on the LAV-25 when required.
When a vehicle driver is hit, another crewman takes his place even if there are passengers on the vehicle.
Increased time penalty for reloading a vehicle-mounted weapon with a destroyed autoloader.
Light vehicles have tighter suspensions.Infantry
Improved soldier pathfinding.
Soldiers can "fire on the move" when inside buildings.
Fixed a bug that could make soldiers moving in a building suddenly drop down a level, or stand too close to the walls.
When a squad splits into teams, the teams divide ammo amongst themselves more evenly.
Corrected a problem where a soldier could become "stuck" moving up a steep slope.
When a squad splits into teams and later reforms, its original targeting orders from before the split won't still be active.
Accuracy of marksmen slightly increased.
Split squads reform when aboard vehicles.
Grenade throwing between adjacent levels in a building works better.
RPG-16 reloads correctly.
A slight difference in elevation will not prevent soldiers moving from rooftop to rooftop.
Corrected a problem where soldiers could lose a weapon recently acquired from a vehicle on the next turn of an email game.TacAI
Improved infantry team evasive movement logic.
Soldiers with area-fire orders are better at taking aimed shots at individual enemies who subsequently appear in the targeted area, especially in buildings.
Suppressive fire: when you order direct fire at an enemy infantry unit, and that enemy unit later disappears from sight, the target order is not immediately canceled. Instead, your unit will continue to area-fire sporadically at the enemy's last known location for a short time if the LOS is sufficiently clear for area-style targeting (note that sometimes it won't be). Volume of fire is lighter versus open terrain, and shots will be taken at other targets of opportunity as usual. If the enemy reappears, it will again be targeted directly. If it does not reappear for about 45 seconds, the target order is canceled. A similar behavior applies to individual soldiers who have fired on enemy infantry without targeting orders from the player. They will continue to area-fire at their target's last known location for about 30 seconds.
Soldiers are better at moving to advantageous firing positions inside a building.
When appropriate, vehicles will attempt to "shoot and scoot" in cases like a BMP-1 where the guided missile takes a long time to reload.
Grenadiers are more willing to use their rifles, not just the grenade launchers.
Hunting units are not so quick to halt if they encounter distant explosions.
Troops crawling behind a wall won't go up to kneeling/firing position while waiting for teammates to catch up.
TacAI aims a little lower versus certain vehicles, especially those without turrets, for better accuracy.
Soldiers placed near the top of of a steep slope (looking up) are more likely to crouch than lie prone, so they can get a clear LOS/LOF over the rim of the slope.
Heavy-weapons gunners and forward observers are less likely to fire their light personal weapons (in order to keep a lower profile).
Javelin gunners fire missiles at enemy infantry in buildings less often.
Gunners pay slightly less attention to enemy vehicles that are abandoned but not destroyed.Computer Player
Computer player is quicker to surrender when most of its forces are knocked out.
Computer player is more aggressive with its artillery and air strikes, and better coordinates its artillery smoke missions.
Computer-player units don't arbitrarily change their facing when the battle starts.
Computer player does a better job organizing movement destinations of its vehicles.Bunkers
Fixed the "floating bunkers" bug.
Bunkers can reliably be placed near trees in a scenario without being shifted.Medic/"Buddy Aid"
Soldiers more reliably pick up "important" weapons from fallen comrades, but marksmen won't drop their scoped rifles to pick up grenade launchers.
More likely to happen between soldiers in the same squad/team than in different squads/teams.
Works across action spot boundaries.
Less likely to happen when under fire.Air and Artillery Support
Building protection versus artillery airbursts is increased.
You no longer hear enemy artillery and air support communication even if you have spotted their forward observer.
Targeting support fire on building domes works correctly.
If an artillery spotter loses sight of the target during the spotting round phase, accuracy of the fire mission is reduced appropriately.
U.S. Army JTAC, and U.S. Marine Fire Control teams are faster at calling in air strikes.
Incoming rounds from helicopter guns won't impact off-map (too early) when the game map is steeply sloped.
Joining teams together to reform a squad when one team is already spotting for air or artillery strikes works correctly.User Interface
Hotkey for toggling floating icons can also toggle display of spotting contact "?" icons.
You may change between real-time and turn-based mode between battles of a campaign, or exit to the game intro screen.
The automatic prompt to save a campaign game now comes just after clicking away the end-of-battle screen, not after loading the next battle.
Pause command increments are: 5sec, 10, 15, 20, 30, 45, 1:00, 1:15, 1:30, (Unlimited) Pause.
Camera zoom up to x20.
Engineers who are passengers on a vehicle may be given a Blast move order, provided it's not the first waypoint.
An enemy unit will no longer remain "selected" in the game interface if it disappears from your units' view.
The game won't allow setting area targets that are a little too low for your gunners to see.
Split squads that have special names display their team names correctly, e.g. "Havoc 1 / A Team".
Target orders given to a double-clicked HQ (which selects its formation) do not apply to reinforcements in that formation that have not yet arrived.
In turn-based play, there is no longer a problem with dismounting from a UAZ and immediately plotting a move into a building.
The target cursor shows "Reverse Slope Target" instead of "Reverse Slope".
"Hint text" is not shown when there is a priority message (like reinforcement arrival) so they don't overwrite.3D Graphics
Faster frame rates in large battles.
New blown-out building wall models.
Updates to models: BRDM-2, BRDM-2 (AT5), BMP-3, AAV-7, AAVC-7, M1A1 Abrams USMC, and M16 rifle.
When walls of different types abut, the sides render correctly.
Foxholes are no longer darkened, so they won't give away infantry positions.
Columns of smoke look correct in internet/LAN games.
Distant dirt and gravel roads display correctly when using Better or Best 3D Texture Quality option.
Light from moonrise appears more gradually.
Landmark text is more readable when it's positioned below the distant mountains but above the edge of the map.TO&E
New Syrian Mech Airborne Infantry Battalion formation.
Updates to Syrian Airborne Rifle Squad, Marine Fire Control Team, and a few US artillery formation names.
Marine sniper teams carry more sniper-rifle ammo.
Syrian forward observers have binoculars.
M4A1 rifle renamed to M4.Quick Battles
Syrian forces always have a forward observer if artillery is available.
Troop Quality parameter has a greater effect on force size: low-quality forces are larger than before, and high-quality are smaller.
If a map was mistakenly designed with "duplicate" Occupy-Terrain objectives for each force, a Quick Battle won't import two copies of the objectives.Miscellaneous
Smoother internet play.
Fixed a bug that caused some newer sound cards not to use enough sound channels.
The effect of experience on spotting ability is increased.
It's slightly less easy to spot enemies who have just fired their weapons, especially antitank launchers.
Scenarios with big maps load faster.
Surrender does not necessarily lead to total defeat. The scores for Terrain Touch, Terrain Destroy, and all Unit objectives are preserved.
IEDs can be detonated by nearby explosions.
Pre-battle Intel "?" icons don't disappear if the associated units are eliminated while not spotted.
AT-10, AT-11, and AT-12 missiles have a 100m minimum range.
Elite mode allows friendly fire in dark conditions.
Trees are tougher to destroy, especially palm trees.
Corrected some rare problems with LOS/LOF and buildings.
Marine Assault (aka SMAW) squad shows an antitank floating icon.Second modul with british forces will follow early next year.
Smaragdadler
01-09-09, 11:42 PM
There is a 1 Gigabyte Demo of CMSF v1.11 out now.
DEMO LIMITATIONS:
Includes three scenarios which can be played as either US or Syrian
Includes a fourth scenario, "Demo Training" which was designed to only be played from the US perspective
All multiplayer modes are active (TCP-IP, PBEM, Hotseat)
You can access the full Game Editor, but the save function is disabled.
The original full game manual is included as a pdf file
The demo scenarios are only in English. See Game Language Info below for more details on how to play these battles in other languages.DEMO SCENARIO INFO:
Demo Training, a small training scenario designed to familiarize new players to Combat Mission before engaging in "real" combat. (Blue play only)
Smashing Steel: A Syrian mechanized force heads south as an American Stryker and tank force heads north. (Battle begins before dawn in the dark, but as time progresses and the sun rises, visibility and lighting will increase)
Going to Town: Stryker infantry mix it up with the Syrian forces as they enter a small town.
USMC Going to Town: Marines combined arms force fights it out with a Syrian force in a small town. The battlefield is the same as the Stryker based Going to Town scenario in order to highlight the differences between the units in each.Get it at battlefront.com
Smaragdadler
07-25-09, 04:05 AM
There is a new demo out! British Forces modul and stand-alone patch v1.20 will follow soon.
Combat Mission Shock Force Demo (v1.20)
http://www.battlefront.com/images/stories/CMSF/British-Forces-demo-INTRO-s.jpg
This brand new demo showcases the basic Shock Force game as well as the Marines Module and also the latest British Forces Module (modules sold separately from the basic game). The Combat Mission: Shock Force Demo will require approximately 1 Gigabyte of free space on your hard drive in order to install.
DEMO LIMITATIONS:
Includes three scenarios which can be played as either US or Syrian
Includes a fourth scenario featuring British units introduced in the newly released British Forces Module
Includes a fifth scenario, "Demo Training" which was designed to only be played from the US perspective
All multiplayer modes are active (TCP-IP, PBEM, Hotseat)
You can access the full Game Editor, but the save function is disabled.
The all new v1.20 game manual is included as a pdf file
The demo scenarios are only in English. See Game Language Info below for more details on how to play these battles in other languages.
DEMO SCENARIO INFO:
Demo Training, a small training scenario designed to familiarize new players to Combat Mission before engaging in "real" combat. (Blue play only)
UK Out of the Wilderness: A mixed Mech Inf, Recce, and tank force fights to secure ground in preparation of a major attack.
Smashing Steel: A Syrian mechanized force heads south as an American Stryker and tank force heads north. (Battle begins before dawn in the dark, but as time progresses and the sun rises, visibility and lighting will increase)
Going to Town: Stryker infantry mix it up with the Syrian forces as they enter a small town.
USMC Going to Town: Marines combined arms force fights it out with a Syrian force in a small town. The battlefield is the same as the Stryker based Going to Town scenario in order to highlight the differences between the units in each.
For download go to
--> www.battlefront.com (http://www.battlefront.com)
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