point and shoot possible?

[Joe S]

In the days of Sub Battle Simulator,and SHI people figured out that if you had a good estimate on target speed, you could easily estimate the amount of lead required for a hit and at close range you could reliably get hits by aiming the periscope ahead of the target by the requisite number of degrees. I tried that in SHIV but the only way I can get it to work is by using the gyro angle setter which is limited to 15 or 20 degrees from the heading of the boat. does anyone know if we can use the scope to point to where we want to shoot without entering data into the TDC? Thanks! Joe S

[louist]

There may be a better way to do it, but you can in realistic mode if you take a distance reading in the direction that you think the torpedo should go, leaving the speed of the target at zero (in which case the direction of the target is obviously irrelevant). Also, note that the computer calculates for a initial straight run, so the direction of the torpedo will be very different from the direction you point the scope if :
a) it is close and/or
b) it is not directly ahead or behind

For that reason, I max out the range when I am taking such a pot shot, and try to wait until the boat is pointed in the direction I want to fire.

[Asmodean]

Point and shoot can be a bit tricky:

a, turn off Position Keeper
b, set target speed to zero (and send it to the TDC), this makes the targets' course irrelevant
c, set the range as high as possible (don't turn the dial, use the normal gear, just bring the two images really close to each other and you will get a large range, everything about 3000m is fine)
d, look into the direction you want to fire and click 'send range to TDC' (which also sends the direction)
e, fire away

As louist said, the trick is the difference between the point from which you gather your data (tower) and the point where the torpedo starts to turn (several meters away from the tube). Because of this, the torpedo angle has to be a bit larger than the one you measured, it is set this way automatically and there's nothing you can do about it. You can, however, minimize the effect:

a, The longer the range, the smaller the correction the TDC makes (-> step c)
b, The smaller the angle, the smaller the correction, you can ignore the range if you shoot at 0 or 180 degrees.

[Rockin Robbins]

Point and shoot can be a bit tricky:

a, turn off Position Keeper
b, set target speed to zero (and send it to the TDC), this makes the targets' course irrelevant
c, set the range as high as possible (don't turn the dial, use the normal gear, just bring the two images really close to each other and you will get a large range, everything about 3000m is fine)
d, look into the direction you want to fire and click 'send range to TDC' (which also sends the direction)
e, fire away
This is a nearly perfect list. Step c is not necessary though, as at zero speed, range cancels out. The range can be whatever garbage resides in the TDC when you turn it on. I tried it out last night during an actual career, and verified that setting any range (mine was zero, having counted down to that from a previous AOB 0º shot) is not necessary.

See how the fast-90 attack method works at http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=625379&postcount=66 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=625379&postcount=66)
and jump to the end of the thread for my test reports. This technique turns point and shoot into point and carnage! I took out 2 ships in 30 seconds this morning. Most of that time was just waiting for ship #2 to slip into the crosshairs.

So you're onto something here! Have fun.

[GT182]

You can unlock the target you've selected, put your crosshairs on any portion of the ship and fire. I've hit center locked, fore and aft unlocked with no problems. TDC will remember range and speed of the target. Just make sure you open the "tube" before you launch that fish.

My reply isn't inteneded to take away from your technique Rockin Robbins. ;)

[Rockin Robbins]

You can unlock the target you've selected, put your crosshairs on any portion of the ship and fire. I've hit center locked, fore and aft unlocked with no problems. TDC will remember range and speed of the target. Just make sure you open the "tube" before you launch that fish.

My reply isn't inteneded to take away from your technique Rockin Robbins. ;)
Not at all! You GWXers are bringing a whole new world over here to SH4 land. Just remember that in SH4, when you sight onto the fore or aft part of the ship, unlike SH3 where the TDC automatically follows the periscope, you must push the send bearing to TDC button to hit that spot. Otherwise there goes another torpedo to the exact spot you hit last.

I believe the Germans would have killed to have an American TDC/PK. But Americans mostly (except for Dick O'Kane and very few other TDC gurus) did not understand German torpedo aiming principles. The Germans would have loved to have another tool, but would not have depended on it for their success. Most American skippers would have to go home if the PK broke down.

[Frederf]

This is a nearly perfect list. Step c is not necessary though, as at zero speed, range cancels out. The range can be whatever garbage resides in the TDC when you turn it on. I tried it out last night during an actual career, and verified that setting any range (mine was zero, having counted down to that from a previous AOB 0º shot) is not necessary.

Try a 0 kt, 90 deg reletive bearing shot with the range at 300 yards and try it again with the range at 1200 yards and tell me the range doesn't matter. ;) The short range shot will set the gyro angle for greater than a 90 degree turn since the torpedo doesn't curve instantly but will go considerably forward before making the turn and the TDC knows this and will set a higher than normal turn on the torpedo to turn back after going forward to hit the short ranged target.

You can easily miss a stopped ship at 2000 yards if you point-shoot using 300 yards instead of 1200 if the ship isn't closer than +/- 45 deg from straight ahead.

[XLjedi]

You can easily miss a stopped ship at 2000 yards if you point-shoot using 300 yards instead of 1200 if the ship isn't closer than +/- 45 deg from straight ahead.

OK... torpedo advance skews the solution for unusually large gyro-angle shots. Is that how you're takin your shots? ...runnin on a parallel course?

For a 10-20° solution it's off maybe 1 degree for every 500M or so... you could set it at 1000 and pretty much ignore it if you took most of your shots in the 700-1800M range. At 700M the ship nicely fills the scope at highest mag, a degree doesn't matter much. I tend to take most of my shots at 700-1000M.

Distance is really more important for helping to guesstimate speed (if you don't already know it) and assuming you like to use that chrono-gadget. In SH4 they made the distance input dial particularly annoying :damn: in that it forces you to use the stad sometimes to even get the dial to function in the right range. That was just bizarre... not sure why I can't just dial it to what I want without hindrance.

[greyrider]

In the days of Sub Battle Simulator,and SHI people figured out that if you had a good estimate on target speed, you could easily estimate the amount of lead required for a hit and at close range you could reliably get hits by aiming the periscope ahead of the target by the requisite number of degrees. I tried that in SHIV but the only way I can get it to work is by using the gyro angle setter which is limited to 15 or 20 degrees from the heading of the boat. does anyone know if we can use the scope to point to where we want to shoot without entering data into the TDC? Thanks! Joe S

well joe, the good news is that you can point and shoot in sh4, without
using the targetting mechanics of the PK, and stratimeter.
i never used the german tdc in sh3. and i dont use the stuff in sh4, and i hardly ever miss a target.
i do not care about a targets course, accept its relativity to my sub. i get on a ninety degree
course to target, just by getting him on my 80 degree bearing, if its a closing target, and wait for him to approach.
port side advance for closing targets, get him on bearing 280.



starboardside advance, get him on your 80 degree bearing, for closing targets.
for the stern, get target on bearing 260 or 100 degree bearing , depending on which way the target
is closing. this can be done over 30 km away, by sound.
this is all you really have to do to get on a ninety degree course, for shooting, the targets AOB will determine how much you need to travel, once you turn to
get him on a collision course, if his AOB is small, you may just need to turn and stop, and wait, he will cross your bow at a beautiful 90 degrees.
if his AOB is deep, or moderate, you may have to travel a couple of km to get close, but he still crosses your bow, on a ninety degree angle.
thats all i do to get on a collision course with a target, simple isnt it. i never miss.

do not touch, set, or otherwize F with the PK, keep your scope free. get the bearing speed charts
from the sound trainer tutorial,
once you get the speed bearing charts from the sound trainer, now you will have the attack angles for different speeds of targets,
calculate the targets speed, i use ships length., once you got his speed, now wait until he closes to the firing bearing for that speed, and torpedoes los!
the target is all done, after that.
in convoy attacks, do the same thing, get the bulk , or the loudest portion of the sound signal, on 80, 280, 100, or 260 bearings, depending on its direction of approach.
calculate convoys speed, then when the ships approach the firing bearing, Los torpedoes, as the targets are crossing the bearing.
depending on how many torpedoes are in your forward tubes, you can have 4 to six hits, on four to six different targets.:)

i just remembered , the bearing speed charts in the sonar tutorial are for german torpedoes, you can get the bearing speed charts for american torpedoes here:

http://hosted.filefront.com/greyrider/

[GT182]

RR, not true. I've been using auto TDC in SH4 and still hit where the crosshairs are aimed on the target, with the scope unlocked. And GWX has nothing to do with it. :roll:

You might want to check the discussions before you jump in and say it can't be done. Maybe you can do it in SHIII also but I've never tried. SH4 is the first I've heard it being done, as others have done it and said so. That's the only reason I tried it and found it works with SH4's auto TDC too.

[XLjedi]

RR, not true. I've been using auto TDC in SH4 and still hit where the crosshairs are aimed on the target, with the scope unlocked. And GWX has nothing to do with it. :roll:

You might want to check the discussions before you jump in and say it can't be done. Maybe you can do it in SHIII also but I've never tried. SH4 is the first I've heard it being done, as others have done it and said so. That's the only reason I tried it and found it works with SH4's auto TDC too.

I must be dense as a doornail or totally not following, or somethin... cuz I've been ranting about the scope being disconnected from the TDC for some time. :doh:

What am I missing?

[Rockin Robbins]

RR, not true. I've been using auto TDC in SH4 and still hit where the crosshairs are aimed on the target, with the scope unlocked. And GWX has nothing to do with it. :roll:

You might want to check the discussions before you jump in and say it can't be done. Maybe you can do it in SHIII also but I've never tried. SH4 is the first I've heard it being done, as others have done it and said so. That's the only reason I tried it and found it works with SH4's auto TDC too.
I must be dense as a doornail or totally not following, or somethin... cuz I've been ranting about the scope being disconnected from the TDC for some time. :doh:

What am I missing?
You're not missing anything. If you are on manual, pressing the send bearing/range button is what tells the torpedo which direction to go. From that moment you can lower the scope, point it any way you want, fold it up and put it in your pocket, the the torpedo is going where you told it by pressing the button. This results in some very entertaining curse words if you're not expecting it. The only way the torpedo automatically follows the scope is if you are not on full manual targeting. In that case you don't have a send bearing/range button anyway.

[don1reed]

The "Sugar Boats" did not have a TDC. They used this formula:

Offset Angle of Collision = asin (( target speed / torp speed ) x sin Aob ).

However, they could direct the torp via gyro-angle...if needed.

[greyrider]

i dont know, but if you guys still insist on making things difficult for yourselfs,
who am i to get in your way.
but i just thought i would post some shots to back up what i posted.
last nite i played alittle, in the campaign, and a lone destroyer came upon me while i was traveling
to my objective., i was far enough ahead of him, that i could just submerge, wait til he goes away,
and then continue toward my obj.
i thoght this would be a good example of what i was talking about, so i started taking pictures.
i missed this target, i identified this target as an asashio class, it was a minekaze class dd, which threw off my speed calculations by 2 knots.
i didnt realize the dd was minekaze until after she passed my zero degree bearing without being hit.
but this is still a good example on getting into a 90 degree collision course with the target, just by sight alone.
the dd appeared to my rear, i submerged, then began to turn to starboeard, setting up my target to get on bearing 280, the target
will be closing from the port side. from his AOB, i can see its shallow, and all i will have to do is turn, and stop.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/2803/23093011ao8.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=23093011ao8.jpg)
in the pic above, the target is falling toward bearing 280, with the sub turning to starboard.

below in pic 2, i have gotten my target on 280, and cut my engines, coming to a full stop, in this picture, the triangle, right triangle, is now set.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/6493/33886766oq2.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=33886766oq2.jpg)

now in pic 3 below, this is the reason why i missed this target, i had id the target as asashio.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/1424/52891479mr3.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=52891479mr3.jpg)
pic 4, the target continues to approach, on bearing 290 now, closing toward my zero.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/2804/83271220dw0.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=83271220dw0.jpg)
in pic 5, the dd continues to close, toward bearing 300. see how beautiful the 90 is being set up? in a minute or so, my SO, should be singing the constant distance song.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/1677/86221284hr2.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=86221284hr2.jpg)
at this point, i have to stop, because imageshack, just went off the air for awhile, i cant upload ppics to it at the moment, so i will finish this later.:damn:

in pic 6 , the dd continues to advance to my zero bearing, the torpedo is set to run straight and true, when it fires
by leaving it alone, the only setting i change is torpedo depth, which in this case, 2 meters is enough, so i left it as default.
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/2056/28756277rl0.th.jpg (http://img256.imageshack.us/my.php?image=28756277rl0.jpg)

pic 7, continuing the advance,
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/2056/28756277rl0.th.jpg (http://img256.imageshack.us/my.php?image=28756277rl0.jpg)

pic 8, the destroyer advances close to the attack bearing of 340, in a perfect 90, the scope is set to 340, and waiting for the target.

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/2203/14861738kv9.th.jpg (http://img256.imageshack.us/my.php?image=14861738kv9.jpg)
somewhere before i had calculated the speed, using the time passed from the bow of the dd to the stern,passing the vertical aiming wire,
and got 17 seconds, for an asashio dd, that would be, 13 knots, therefore my attack bearing will be 340 port, for a 36 knot mk10 torpedo.
thinking thats what i had, an asashio class destroyer, i waited until the destroyer got on bearing 340, and i fired the torpedo.
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3540/41908316ym5.th.jpg (http://img256.imageshack.us/my.php?image=41908316ym5.jpg)

pic 10, the torpedo has been fired, the target is almost at zero degrees, where it should be blown out of the water in a few seconds.
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/9827/10yk0.th.jpg (http://img256.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10yk0.jpg)
pic 11, just about there, a few seconds away from collision with the torpedo.
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/6061/11uv0.th.jpg (http://img256.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11uv0.jpg)
pic 12,
there is no pic 12, this picture should have been the one that showed the torpedo hitting the destroyer, but the real picture
here should of been of my face, when i watched the whole length of the ship pass my aiming wire without being hit, i looked around for answers,
it wasnt torpedo depth or bad positioning, it was bad identification of the ship, realizing it was a minekaze now, i recalculated the speed, and the speed of
the destroyer was in reality 11 knots, my torpedo passed his bow at the collision point before the destroyer got there.
but at any rate, this shows that you dont need the targeting mechanics of the pk, how you can get on 90 courses to targets without plotting.
you can also use hydrophones, at great distances, getting target on the 80 degree offsets i spoke about, and keep them on the 80 degree offsets,
as much as possible, if they drift in sound bearings,( advancing in bearings, either forward or to the rear of you, move forwaed, or backward, keeping them on 80 degree offsets, until you
make visual contact with them.
by keeping them on 80 degree offsets, your shrinking the right triangle, and keeping the ranges manageable.
i hope this helps out alittle, i will play the game alittle later, and when i come across something again, ill take pictures, this time, with a torpedo hit
and a convoy attack.

[Rockin Robbins]

i have to stop, because imageshack, just went off the air for awhile, i cant upload ppics to it at the moment, so i will finish this later.:damn:
Don't you hate it when that happens? Looking forward to the rest of what amounts to a great tutorial!

One question. You didn't attempt to plot his course? How did you project it in order to set up your right angle?

[greyrider]

i have to stop, because imageshack, just went off the air for awhile, i cant upload ppics to it at the moment, so i will finish this later.:damn:
Don't you hate it when that happens? Looking forward to the rest of what amounts to a great tutorial!

One question. You didn't attempt to plot his course? How did you project it in order to set up your right angle?

with this method RR, you dont need to plot, bearing, range and course, dont mean anything, if you set the targets course r to sub this way.

the only critical factor is speed, and in this example, i missed because of a bad speed calculation.

i just kept thinking about what jurgen osten said, "it was easier in real life", this has to be it:)

[Rockin Robbins]

I'll wait for you to finish your tutorial (please edit the first post so it is all in one place) and then I'll ask questions. At present my concern is the requirement to establish the right angle by mere inspection without plotting anything at all. Seems dubious, but I'm in learning mode. :ping:

[greyrider]

alright, i did it again, i played the campaign, and i got another random sighting, warships!
i was at PD, and picked them up by sound, the SO did, isnt that 19 km away?
anyway, i picked up the screws of two warships, another japanese ASW patrol again, tho i thought they were only two screws,
there turned out to be three ships, a fubuki, a gunboat, and a subchaser.
this one is very good, because it also involved maneuver, because the targets began to move to my rear, after i had gotten them on my eighty degree bearing.
i nailed the lead fubuki, using the steps i outlined above.
i have natural sinking mod, it didnt look like she would go down, but after about 15 minutes she did.
i have pictures and will post later.

[greyrider]

played at 100 percent realism.

situation: s-38
sitting at the map screen, at high time compression, the SO reports sound contact, bearing 210, warship! medium speed,closing.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/9800/71511909yi0.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=71511909yi0.jpg)
two screws, one very high speed, maybe a gun boat, the other screws fast, but slower than the probable gunboat, without a doubt, a destroyer.
more than likely, its a japanese ASW patrol.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/8452/86099361xy3.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=86099361xy3.jpg)
normally, i wouldnt touch these ships, but to show you this technique, i chose to attack this target, that i consider high risk, the danger of detection very
high. i had to keep my scope as low as possible, for fear of being detected, and yet high enough for you to have a good view without waves getting in the way.
this time, as opposed to last nite, i was up for the challenge, nothing would go wrong tonite.
deciding which way to turn, in order to get my target on an eighty degree offset, i order ahead 1/3, and hard to port, i will have the targets approach me from my port side.
monitoring the sound bearings at the hydrophones while in turn, the submarine is turning to port, until the sound contact is at bearing 280, at the hydrophones.
rudder amidships, all stop.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/7764/36204028yq8.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=36204028yq8.jpg)
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/7674/31170895he3.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=31170895he3.jpg)
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/6159/99778679qa9.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=99778679qa9.jpg)
believing that im tracking the lead ship in the column, i look threw the scope in the direction of 280, and see nothing, the targets are still beyond visual range.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/6386/11105819vq4.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11105819vq4.jpg)
monitoring the sound signal, the targets bearing drift, begins to fall toward my 275 bearing, the targets will not be closing to my front, but to my rear, with
an s-boat, i have no stern torpedoes, but in order to keep my position, i order back emergency, with a straight rudder, hoping the AOB of the target is not to deep, and i will be able to get him
back on my 280 by backing up.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/2581/29173555qn6.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=29173555qn6.jpg)
moving in reverse at 6 knots, the targets sound signal continued to fall toward bearing 267, even as i moved backward, when it became visual.
looking at the contact now, i can determine that i will never win the race, to cover the distance needed to get him back on my 280 bearing,
i order all stop, then ahead flank, until i get forward movement, and then order hard to port, so that i can turn, and engage the target with my bow torpedoes.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/3613/44579157xp4.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=44579157xp4.jpg)
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/3189/10cu0.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10cu0.jpg)
after making the turn, and getting the target on my eighty degree bearing, starboard side, i observe the targets AOB, and at its present range and AOB,which is deep, i realise that the submarine will
have to close quite a distance, in order to keep the target within torpedo range. i keep speed at flank, and try to get position, on the destroyer.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/3981/11kb7.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11kb7.jpg)
still humming along at PD, making turns for 9 knots, the target bearing is begining to fall backward toward bearing 85, this is good, it means i am gaining in position on the destroyer, and winning the race,
for now, i will let him fall back on bearings, and when i have gained the position i want, i will turn to put him back on my eighty degree bearing,
and build the right triangle again, down scope.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/8828/13fs7.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=13fs7.jpg)

[greyrider]

currently, this is what my map looks like, no help there, and i am not map plotting at all.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5577/14pb4.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=14pb4.jpg)
the next three shots just show the target getting closer on high power, the submarine is still running at nine knots, and closing on the target.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/9128/15qj6.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=15qj6.jpg)
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/158/16ke9.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=16ke9.jpg)
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/9558/17iq4.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=17iq4.jpg)
this is what it looks like in low power, below. the target is still to far away to get a positive id on.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/7039/18od7.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=18od7.jpg)
the approach is going well, i have not been detected so far, i believe because the range is still to great for them to hear me, and my angle in relation to them,
i am making plenty of noise.
having now gained position on the enemy destroyer, i order allstop, and put my target back on my eighty degree bearing, and my right triangle has been rebuilt.
looking threw the scope on high power, i try to id the ship, the range is long, and its a bad habit i have, trying to id targets to far away,
but the searchlight in between the two stacks is the giveaway this time, its a fubuki fleet destroyer. with a length of 389 feet.
i am aware of another ship out there behind the destroyer, the subchaser, i have observed it, however, i am not aware that there is also a gunboat in the enemy formation.
given the nature and mission of the enemy ships, and a high probability of being detected by them, i stand off , at a comfortable distance, from the destroyer and her companion,
decreasing that probability alittle in my favor, scope even lower when exposing it now.
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8223/19og2.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=19og2.jpg)
time now is 17:22, the operation has been ongoing since sound contact at 16:50, s-38 is in position,
motionless, waiting for the target to approach.
the next three pictures just show the bearing advance of the destroyer at 70, 50, and 40 degress starboard.
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/9219/20ip9.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20ip9.jpg)
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/8971/21df6.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=21df6.jpg)
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/2195/22vr2.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=22vr2.jpg)
it was during these sequences that i took the speed calculation, by measuring ships length passing the aiming wire.
the chronometer was used to time, and was 19 seconds for ships length to pass the wire, the destroyer was making 12 knots.
opening tube 1, and checking the firing bearing for a 12 knot target, using a mk10 torpedo. the bearing to attack the target on would be 18 degrees starboard.
the target has advanced and closed to near 30 degrees now, range unknown, true course unknown, speed 12 knots.
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/2767/23sv5.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=23sv5.jpg)
now at 25 degrees starboard, look at that beautiful 90.
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/2204/24pn4.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=24pn4.jpg)

[greyrider]

now the scope has been set to eighteen degrees, and the target is almost to it. when the target gets midship on the aiming wire at 18 degrees,
the torpedo will be fired, and it will go straight out, along my zero bearing, until it hits something, or runs out of fuel, nothing
has been set on the pk, the scope is free, and not locked on to anything.
the target is now on bearing 18, a wave came and blocked my vision for a moment, i fired alittle aft of midship.
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/158/26yz1.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=26yz1.jpg)
feeling very confident that my torpedo will strike the target, i raise the scope just alittle bit, to get a better view,
the next 3 pictures show the bearing advance of the destroyer, from near 10, near 5, and near 2 degrees, as it closes to zero degrees, and its destruction
at zero degrees.
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/6687/27mh2.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=27mh2.jpg)
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/6216/28lp8.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=28lp8.jpg)
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/5518/29re8.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=29re8.jpg)
finally, the great moment has arrived, torpedo impact!
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/9640/30zx4.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=30zx4.jpg)
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/551/31zp7.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=31zp7.jpg)
the target turned to starboard after being hit, where she tried to make speed, and began to list.
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/3572/32uh4.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=32uh4.jpg)
in a few minutes, it looked like the destroyer had recovered, and joined her friends to hunt for the submarine.
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/714/33lp3.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=33lp3.jpg)
while she was milling around with her companios, i could see her low in the water in the stern area, but she looked well, and
frustrated, i got ready another torpedo for firing, speed 6 knots, and shot at it, but the destroyer could not maintain her speed,
and it dropped off, and the torpedo missed, it was a wasted torpedo, because the destroyer sank a few minutes later.
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/4306/35pd9.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=35pd9.jpg)
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/4758/36he3.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=36he3.jpg)
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/9214/37pt9.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=37pt9.jpg)
this is the end of this one,if anyone has questions, ill be happy to answer them.

[Rockin Robbins]

Ok, I'm going to have to MoBo this thing out, but let me see if I understand your method properly. You sight a fairly distant bad guy, or detect his sorry wreckage by sonar or radar. We'll assume he's right of you. You set him up on bearing 80º coming toward. This ensures he's on a right angle course? Wonder how accurate that is? Wonder how accurate you need to be? This is a job for MoBo!

Also, how did you estimate the speed? I've seen freighters going 4, 5, 7 or 10 knots, same kind of boat. But I found that out by plotting. What do you do? Look at the bow wave? Time the boat through its length? Ouija board?:lol:

Obviously you're hitting targets so the right angle attack method must be pretty forgiving of errors if you're close enough. My strategy has always been to be precise about any system I use. Sometimes precision isn't possible and a snapshot technique like yours can save your tail.

Looking forward to your answers and I'm going to work out some stuff on MoBo to see what the parameters are to use this successfully. Keep up the good work.:up:

[Rockin Robbins]

Ok, lets start out with everything the way it's supposed to be. I am on a right angle course to the target because that's the way I set it up.:/\\x: Let's see what this 80º bearing means. Here you can see that I'm 800 yd off the track with the target at bearing 80º. Note his distance at 4842 yd. If he is further than that, his bearing goes to 81º, and even higher as his distance grows. So it is clear that if you have a radar contact at 10,000 and you are unlucky enough to be 800 yd from the track, his desired bearing will be between 80 and 90 somewhere, not 80º.http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/MoBo1-1.jpg
Next we'll look at the minimum distance for this setup 800 yd off the track, bearing 80º. It turns out to be 4390 yd. Any distance shorter than this will result in a desired bearing less than 80º until at point of impact the bearing is zero. So it is clear that if the target's track is 800 yd away unless the target's range is 4390 to 4842 yards, setting up at an 80º bearing will yield a result you do not want.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/MoBo2-1.jpg
But how could we know we are 800 yards off the track? We can't! Let's set up the target inside our range that works, but move OwnShip out to 900 yards from the track. Oops!
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/MoBo3-1.jpg
That changes the bearing to 78º! If we change our heading to make his bearing 80º We'll be aiming our torpedoes 2º to the left of where we want (and we are no longer 90º to the track either). At 900 yards, if we're aiming for the bow half of the target, we just missed ahead of the target.

Sorry if I'm driving you crazy with my love of precision, but I'm just trying to understand what you're doing here. There's missing information somewhere in your explanation. Find it and report back. Remember when you give instructions, if other people can't follow them and do it themselves you're just bragging! :-j I'd love to learn how to do this. Try again? It's harder than you thought isn't it? At least it's harder to explain than it is to do.

MoBo rocks, doesn't it! No more guesswork, just the facts. And the next version will blow this away, won't it aaronblood?:rock:

[don1reed]

Excellent piece, Greyrider. I can confirm your solution using your great pics and the SACF whiz wheel. Well Done!

[Rockin Robbins]

Excellent piece, Greyrider. I can confirm your solution using your great pics and the SACF whiz wheel. Well Done!
I don't see where he used an SACF whiz wheel. If he did, he sure doesn't mention it. I'm sure he'll get together a good instruction set we can use to get other people using the strategy, but we're just American sub-jockeys here, not U-Boat slide rule wizards. Ya gotta make allowances for us flunkies.:88) Our geniuses are working on the Manhattan project.

[don1reed]

No he didn't, RR. I'm saying, I confirm his solution using my SACF just from his great pics.

One of the pics shows, Br 071°, ~Ab 65° , Time: 17:22:20....Speed = ~10.4 kn (on SACF).... and another pic shows,
Br 031° diff in Br = 40°, range (using low pwr on scope) = 19.1 x MHH / 1 tic = ~1322 yds, elapsed time = 2 min. Speed = 10.4 + 01.4 = 11.8 or 12 kn.

Seems like there's many ways to "skin a cat."

cheers,

[greyrider]

[quote=Rockin Robbins]Ok, I'm going to have to MoBo this thing out, but let me see if I understand your method properly. You sight a fairly distant bad guy, or detect his sorry wreckage by sonar or radar. We'll assume he's right of you. You set him up on bearing 80º coming toward. This ensures he's on a right angle course? Wonder how accurate that is? Wonder how accurate you need to be? This is a job for MoBo!

hi rock, just getting the target on an 80 degree offset doesnt garentee a 90 degree angle for attack. as you could see from the second example, in order to maintain that angle for attack, i had to move quite alot submerged, i used a quarter
of my battery. sometimes its like the first example, just a turn and stop, other times its a run for position. i think an important factor is the study of the targets AOB, whether by sound or visual, you have to watch the bearing drift, either it will show signs of it crossing ahead of you, or to the rear, once you decide where its going, then make the decision to go get it, at an 80 degree offset, shrinking the triaangle, until the target is visual. you can plot if you want to also, no reason why you cant.



Also, how did you estimate the speed? I've seen freighters going 4, 5, 7 or 10 knots, same kind of boat. But I found that out by plotting. What do you do? Look at the bow wave? Time the boat through its length? Ouija board?:lol:

by ships length, passing the vertical aiming wire, starting at the bow, and ending at the stern, once you count the seconds, its just a TSD problem now, when you do the formula, its going to tell you the speed of the target, and once you know its speed, you can always continue to monitor target speed, by redoing the speed time count, if it still takes the same time, its going the same speed, if it takes less time, the target speeded up, more time, he has slowed down.

Obviously you're hitting targets so the right angle attack method must be pretty forgiving of errors if you're close enough. My strategy has always been to be precise about any system I use. Sometimes precision isn't possible and a snapshot technique like yours can save your tail.

if you look at the second picture of the torpedo impact, i swear that angle is begining to be obstruse, but "shallow"obstruse angles are almost as good as right angles,
it is forgiving up to a point, it doesnt have to be a true 90. if your still unsure about things, keep asking questions, ill answer, until you do understand.:)

[greyrider]

No he didn't, RR. I'm saying, I confirm his solution using my SACF just from his great pics.

One of the pics shows, Br 071°, ~Ab 65° , Time: 17:22:20....Speed = ~10.4 kn (on SACF).... and another pic shows,
Br 031° diff in Br = 40°, range (using low pwr on scope) = 19.1 x MHH / 1 tic = ~1322 yds, elapsed time = 2 min. Speed = 10.4 + 01.4 = 11.8 or 12 kn.

Seems like there's many ways to "skin a cat."

cheers,

thanks don, for the kind words, and the checking out of the technique,
i know you are the man, when its comes to the calculations. i cant do the things you can do on paper. your imput was much appreciated, thanks and stay heathy don.:)

to rockin robin again, i would like you to use it as your own, or if it wont be a primary approach, it could be a secondary method, at any rate, it should be learned, practised, because it works, and any captain with a closed mind that refuses to learn new techniques, well i wouldnt want to be on thier boats in r/l, i'd rather go to levenworth, for a couple of years, than to let a moron get me killed.:lol:

i think a practice mission might be in order, something short, only taking about one half hour or so , ill make one by tomorrow,
and post it at filefront.

[greyrider]

i put a mission up at filefront, if your interested in checking out the technique, its very simple,
i wont tell you to much about it, im depending on your skills, :D to find it, and sink it.
use more than one torpedo if you want to. if your going to download it, you will need to make a folder
in the singlemissions folder called, point and shoot, thats what the mission is called, and put the MIS file in it.
then fire up the game.
the mission is here:
http://hosted.filefront.com/greyrider
and you will need the chart for the mk10 torpedo, which you can also find at that link.
good luck guys,
i will say this, its a bit tricky, because i wanted to challenge you. it should only last abour 1/2 hour.
because of its trickiness, from the people that try it, i would like to know what offset you got the target on.:)

try it on 100 percent realism

[Rockin Robbins]

hi rock, just getting the target on an 80 degree offset doesnt garentee a 90 degree angle for attack. as you could see from the second example, in order to maintain that angle for attack, i had to move quite alot submerged, i used a quarter
of my battery. sometimes its like the first example, just a turn and stop, other times its a run for position. i think an important factor is the study of the targets AOB, whether by sound or visual, you have to watch the bearing drift, either it will show signs of it crossing ahead of you, or to the rear, once you decide where its going, then make the decision to go get it, at an 80 degree offset, shrinking the triaangle, until the target is visual. you can plot if you want to also, no reason why you cant.
Awesome! So early on you're just using the 80º as a guideline, looking at bearing changes as he nears to figure out your relationship to his course, deciding if he'll cross ahead or behind and making positioning changes to get it in the neighborhood you want.


(You estimate the speed) by ships length, passing the vertical aiming wire, starting at the bow, and ending at the stern, once you count the seconds, its just a TSD problem now, when you do the formula, its going to tell you the speed of the target, and once you know its speed, you can always continue to monitor target speed, by redoing the speed time count, if it still takes the same time, its going the same speed, if it takes less time, the target speeded up, more time, he has slowed down.
Also awesome! Advantage: easily checked and rechecked quickly. Plotting typically takes at least 3 minutes. Disadvantage: the ship must be correctly ID'd. Like you say, you can check with a plot. If the plot doesn't agree with your timing, something's wrong.

if you look at the second picture of the torpedo impact, i swear that angle is begining to be obstruse, but "shallow"obstruse angles are almost as good as right angles,
it is forgiving up to a point, it doesnt have to be a true 90. if your still unsure about things, keep asking questions, ill answer, until you do understand.:)
Yup, it's my habit of being anally precise about things. I MoBo'd it out and the error is only proportional to the tangent of the error angle. So a 10º error (true course is between 80º and 100º from your course) your maximum error would be 17.6% of your aiming correction angle. If you are aiming at 8.5º lead angle for a fast Mark 14 and a 7 knot target, your aim will be 1.4º off, enough to miss ahead if you're aiming at the bow, but if you shoot 3: bow, center, stern you'll get 2 hits, enough to sink most ships. If you're only 700 yards from the track you'll probably get three hits even with the error. Edit: I think I overstated the error here. I'll work it out later and correct this part. The error would be the effective angular speed difference between the perfect right angle track and the real track. In other words the proportion of the two distances.

Great procedure and a really good reason to continually measure the true AOB, look through the periscope and learn to recognize without measuring. Real sub skippers used to practice with ship models on turntables. They also reduced attack strategies so that they could figure in their head as a check to all the fancy equipment. Many times, their mental picture and calculations corrected mistakes by the plotting party and made the difference between using and wasting torpedoes.

Thanks for the great pictures and sticking with me. Eventually I want to organize a whole, hopefully stickied, thread on attack and evasion tactics. A full bag of tricks makes for a successful skipper in any condition. I still have room for more tricks.:up:

[greyrider]

17.6% error? maximum?:cool:
i'd say that was a pretty good, i would take an error risk that small, anytime.:yep:
thanks rock, that was good to know. even if its overstated, thats still acceptable, for me anyway.:up:
your very welcome, and if you organize an attack thread, you can use anything from me anytime bud.
you sank that ship, huh?
i could tell, certain words you said.:rock:


i have made contact with a convoy in the campaign, still far away, and i saved the game, so i could play the convoy attack tonight, using this technique,
take pics, and post the attack, i got the full version of FRAPS, today, i may try to make it as a movie, but i dont know how good i will do,
i have the soundtrack of the good, the bad, and the ugly, sorta goes with submarine warfare, i like to play certain parts of it, from the gramaphone,
dont know if a copyrite issue is involved either, but i might try it, just to see if it would all work together, and if my voice could be added.
i dont know if these things can be done, but i know the technique can be done, so maybe ill just stick with pics, especially since you, and maybe some
other guys understood it, just from the pics.
it might be a couple of days until the convoy post shows up, but i think you will like the carnage

[Rockin Robbins]

17.6% error? maximum?:cool:
i'd say that was a pretty good, i would take an error risk that small, anytime.:yep:
thanks rock, that was good to know. even if its overstated, thats still acceptable, for me anyway.:up:
It's better than that. I believe when I run the numbers I'll find the error is more on the range of 2 or 3%, not 17.6%! And if I'm right in my head here without checking, any angle close to a right angle, up to plus or minus 15º should be plenty accurate. That's 30º of pure slop to play with, with impunity! Stay tuned for more info and I'll most likely draw it up so you can see that it's correct just by inspection. Fancy math is just fine, but it's only a subsitute for a nice simple, elegent diagram that anybody can understand.

[Rockin Robbins]

Sorry about the delay but I wanted to see if I could a: convince myself I was right and b: be able to explain this puppy so you might agree.:hmm: As usual I pulled out MoBo and drew out the situation to check calculations. Here's the deal in math: The error in percentage of angular lead is close to 1 minus the cosine of the angle of error. Well that's clear as mud! And I'm sure you dragged your trig tables out to sea with you and want to consult them during the attack. So let's draw out a couple of cases and see how much error we can tolerate. Once we figure out that, we'll just throw the trig book out the window and over-generalize the situation so we are just left with a rule of thumb to follow and don't have to bother with it again.

MoBo time! Thank you aaronblood for a great program.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/90deg10degerrorchart.jpg
Here we have 3 courses, slightly different from each other. The middle course is a boat on a perfect right angle course to us between two parallel lines a certain unimportant distance apart. In this case, the target travels 3642 yards between them at on a 90º track. But what if it really isn't on a perfect right angle, if it were off, say 10º, how much difference would that make? All we have to do is draw the two 10º error courses, 100º and 80º, which you see in their reciprocal couses, 280º and 260º. Then we can measure their lengths, 3699 yards. They are 57 yards more distant, 57/3642 tells us it will take 1.56% off their apparent speed from one end to the other. That corresponds to a 1.56% lag. Our chart of a 7 knot target on a right angle course tells us to lead the target by 7.5º (Mark 14 high speed). Our error is 1.56% of that, an immeasurable error. So you have an absolutely free 20º of slop there! You "might" see an obtuse angle? Might not be important!

Next example Fred. Hey, keep it down back there! Put that comic book away, now!

Yeah, 10º either way might be a little tight. What happens when we open that up to 15%. Mobo, that's your cue:
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/90deg15degerrorchart.jpg
Yup, we've opened up the error cone to plus or minus 15º, that's a big 30º of error. Seems real consequential to me. Let's do the math here. The perfect right angle course is still 3642 yards long. The two error courses are the same length: 3772 yards. That's a 130 yard difference, a 3.6% error. 7.5º lead angle *3.6% error means an aiming difference of .27º on a scale you're lucky to be able to set to the nearest half degree!

Regardless of the distance of our course, the ratios will be unchanged. I only picked fairly large numbers so our measurements would have the desired accuracy. Make sense? Anybody have any different ideas?

I'm going to say this proves that greyrider's technique meets the #1 requirement of any tactic that can be successful in battle: error tolerance. It still has to work when everything goes to..... you get the idea. If you can't judge a right angle with 30º of available consequence-free slop factor, find another method that makes more sense! I say this is plenty good enough for me.:up:

[greyrider]

wow,

rock, you da man, that was some great figuring you did, i dont know if i understand it all yet, i read it , and now i will be leaving for work soon, and ill think about what you demonstrated. when i come home, ill read it again.

but that explains alot as to why there is hardly a miss, and i know i have shot at ships with obstruse angles and have hit them.

if anything, david sandbergs program "intercalc", which was the program i used to figure out this technique, was the driving force behind it, if not for him and his program, this technique might not have been done by me.

so many members, have done alot for the community, its really great, the generosity of the community is remarkable, lots of people helping people.

thanks rock, for that explanation, ill read again when i get home, and absorb more
of it.

i had to blow off that convoy, that i said i encountered, it was a reported convoy,
i think those convoys are to easy, to use the technique on, i have been driving around in the same general area now, looking for an chance contact with an unreported convoy, to demonstrate the convoy attack, i have to go out tonight, and may not get the chance to play it, but eventually , by the weekend, i should have played, and will post.

[don1reed]

Great post, RR & gr!

[XLjedi]

if anything, david sandbergs program "intercalc", which was the program i used to figure out this technique, was the driving force behind it, if not for him and his program, this technique might not have been done by me.

What does "intercalc" do?

Is it something I should bother to look at? :hmm:

[greyrider]

arron,

intercalc is a torpedo solution program.

it variables are torpedo speed, target speed, target bearing, own ship speed, target course, own ship course, and time to impact.

real nice, and i think you should take a look, as your mobo program is also a very good program. it used to be on subsim, for a d/l, but i could'nt find it, so i posted
it at this link, if you want to d/l it, its there for you., you might find it something you want to work with. i used it because i wanted to find just solutions just for 0 gyro angle on torpedoes. but you could do the same thing for every beariing on the 360, but you would have a mountain of data, i just stuck with 0 gyro angles.

anyway, this is the link to get david sandberg's intercalc:

http://hosted.filefront.com/greyrider/:)

[greyrider]

rock,

i understand it now, thanks:D

yup, since using this exclusively, since the earliest days of sh3, i just cant shoot any other way, the tdc and stadimeter are just to unresponsive , things can change rapidly, on the battlefield, and this technique, is about the fastest way to respond to changing conditions that i have found.

i hope that you use it as your own now, it belongs to the community now.

lots of guys around here that are tactically minded, you, arron, don, love reading your posts.:up:

[XLjedi]

arron,

intercalc is a torpedo solution program.

it variables are torpedo speed, target speed, target bearing, own ship speed, target course, own ship course, and time to impact.

anyway, this is the link to get david sandberg's intercalc:

http://hosted.filefront.com/greyrider/:)

Ah... I see. Thanks for the link.

The intercept tool in MoBo is a little more interactive than that one. I like moving stuff around and watching the solutions change dynamically.

But it does give me an idea... Hmmm... :hmm:

[Rockin Robbins]

OK, check out this, where I reduced it to the number of yards the aiming point is off. It depends on knowing that for something to have an angular size of 1º it has to be approx 53 times further away than its length. This derives from the definition of a cotangent. So we know if something is really 1" wide and it is 1º wide with our periscope, it is 53 inches away. Cool, huh? MoBo time! I'll learn this thing yet.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/37beb6ee.jpg

It's just another way to look at the problem, figuring out how far off our aiming point is in yards. At over a mile distance, we're 13 yards off at a 15º error. Not too shabby!

Proviso: aaronblood says the error is about 2º, or in our scenario here (3642/85)*2 = 85.7 yards error at 2271 yards range. You know what? With a nice size ship at 300 yd long, whoever's right you just hit it! If you fired a nice 3 torpedo 1º spread you just sunk it from a mile away! From 700 yards this is devastating. Let the carnage begin!

Edit: Both MoBo and Intercalc, which share the same characteristic of rounding to the nearest degree, show that my prediction of an error of a fraction of a degree is correct with a 15º error in couse from a perfect right angle. Shoot with confidence that your speed measurements are critical, your angular measurements a lot less so long as actual angles are within plus or minus 15º of your estimate. Outside of that, your aim deviates quickly!

[XLjedi]

I took a slightly different approach to the plotting when I was lookin at this stuff a little while ago...

I was playin around with trying to develop an optimum spread angle for a 3 fish salvo. Looking for the spread that would give me the best chance for at least 1 hit in the 1000m to 1500m range. I settled in on 2°.

Few observations came out of it...

1) I realized the AoB had more of a margin for error than speed. So I sorta adopted the position of "Speed is the Key".

2) The error margin for AoB was not symmetrical. I had more room to be wrong in overestimating rather than underestimating the AoB. Which plays right into our natural tendency anyway, so that was nice... (see M1)

3) I could be off by 1 knot and still score a hit if my AoB estimate is good (see M2)

4) :-? ...and then I noticed I could expand the margin for error on AoB by purposefully underestimating the target speed. :doh: That sorta caught me off guard. I tell the TDC the target is moving 7kts when I know it's 8kts and I pick up an extra 20° of fluff in the AoB estimate... and might still score a hit, go figure. (see M3)

http://xl-logic.com/mobo/tutorial_pics/AoB_spread_20070830_1.png

I have to keep in mind though that as the AoB error increases the cross section of the ship decreases and it becomes an odd angle so I'd need pistols set for mag-det. We like to hope we're not off that much in our estimates right?

[greyrider]

well, after reading the rock's, and aaron's posts, showing these examples in the program MOBO,
i'm just going to have to d/l it. i was so interested in this program when it first started to appear
in threads, but arron was still working on it, and i lost track of it.
but im going to get it now, really nice program aaron!

last nite i did play for a bit, and i got a radio contact, task force, warship convoy, there are 3 carriers,
battleships, cruisers ,couple of merchants, and plenty of dd's.
the thing about this task force, is that its zig-zagging, its about 7km away at the moment, i saved it.
its making very deep zig-zags, shooting flares in the sky, its hunting for something, i think this is the very first time i have ever seen a zig zagging convoy.
this is going to be a real test of the technique, against a zig zagging task force, at the moment my scope is pointing at 280, and they are closing.
they zig and zag from a base course of 237 degrees, im going to try to get one of the carriers, using the technigue.
i think im just going to let fraps run, as the ships close, then post it if im sucessful it taking the carrier down.

[greyrider]

scratch one carrier!
imageshack is not working this morning,:roll: so ill post pics later. the carrier was hit by four torpedoes, using the technique.
i guess this really says that the technigue can work, under any circumstances.:up:
i found out by attacking this zig zagging taskforce however, that targets changing course constantly, was what the position keeper was made for.:smug:
it probably would have been easier to attack, THIS TIME, using the PK. reasons being my scope was exposed alot, they were already in a defensive posture,
and looking for someone, my scope had to be very low, and i took pics i had to throw away, because all they were showing was waves in the way.
my main consideration was not being detected, as they got closer, there were ships all over my 360 when it came time to fire, and i did get
my forward section pushed down to 69 ft, by an enemy ship running over it, causing no damage tho. :o i cant believe my luck with the examples i have been posting,:yep:
one was a turn and stop, another involved maneuver, and this one zig zagged, theres only one more, a normal merchant convoy on a straight track.
ill post the rest later.:)

[greyrider]

situation: s-38

patrolling luzon straights, the submarine received a contact report, large warship taskforce,
heading southwest, approximately 14 nm ene from s-38's current position. s-38 decided to take a look,
she was looking for unreported merchant convoys, but could not resist getting a look at the taskforce, in case there may be carriers.
the targets course was projected on the map, the enemy formation on course 237 degrees. s-38 proceeded to its CPA to the taskforce, then to PD at allstop,
to listen for the enemy approach.
sonar reports multiple warship screws,closing, medium speed. the contact report claimed the taskforce was making 11 knots for speed.
tracking by sound, the amplitude of the screws increasing, s-38 held her position, until visual sighting of taskforce in the direction of 280 R.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/6259/90261249wo7.th.jpg (http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=90261249wo7.jpg)
looking thru the scope at the approaching taskforce, the ships were zig-zagging, and i saw at least one flare go up. they were in a defensive posture.
i counted 3 carriers, and battleships,heavy and light cruisers and destroyers were screening for the carriers.
during a zig, a carrier at long range turned, and completely presented the whole starboard side of the ship to the submarine, and we took that time to calculate
the speed of the taskforce.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/2074/61237864xf8.th.jpg (http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=61237864xf8.jpg)
calculating the ships length passing the aiming wire of the scope, we calculated 37 seconds, it was fairly easy to id the carrier, because of the crane at the stern, and multiple
masts aft of midships, she was a hiryu fleet carrier. her speed, 11.6 knots, we dropped the .6, and determined the taskforce was still doing the reported speed of 11 knots.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/3136/92458651dk0.th.jpg (http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=92458651dk0.jpg)
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/8089/54227137cw6.th.jpg (http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=54227137cw6.jpg)
s-38 opened all tubes, torpedoes set for 15 ft, leveled the boat at 48 ft, and put the rudder straight, lying motionless, the submarine rigged for silent running,
and rigged for depth charge.
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raising the scope, we looked for the nearest threat, using high power, a destroyer, still at long range, but closing on the submarines position in a zag.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/9176/77681864dk4.th.jpg (http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=77681864dk4.jpg)
the rest of the taskforce was also in a zag, there coming! down scope.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/144/90426872qt2.th.jpg (http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=90426872qt2.jpg)
the taskforce closing, we switched to low power on the scope, and continued to watch our closest threat, while at the same time we watched the course,
s-38 was prepared to move in any direction, if we had to, to engage any target that came close to us, because the ships advance was unpredictable, the primary target,
the fleet carrier, could zig zag either in front, or to the rear of the submarine, we had to be ready to move against it in any direction, or to forget about it,and take on any target
that was nearing our position.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/9224/69258309ws4.th.jpg (http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=69258309ws4.jpg)

[greyrider]

raising the scope again, we focused on the target, the carrier, she had zigged right onto my 280 bearing, with a starboard AOB, the triangle is set.
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1875/10ue1.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10ue1.jpg)
turning the scope in the direction of the leading escort, and closest ship to the submarine, we watched nervously as the destroyer passed the point of torpedo impact,
the destroyer was in a perfect 90 degree course to the submarine.
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/2915/11rs5.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11rs5.jpg)
the carriers are closing, all three are in the sight picute of the scope, still zig zagging, two near bearing 288, and the third bow spray seen near the left
of the scope. still anybody's guess as to where the cv's will go, s-38 continues to hold its position.
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/2915/11rs5.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11rs5.jpg)
the primary target is the more distant ship in the next picture, but between the target and the submarine, came another carrier to close to shoot at,
and masking and blocking the view of the primary target.
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1390/13xl2.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=13xl2.jpg)
the carrier passing to the front, not more than 250 yards, we brought the scope low, to avoid detection, surface engine noises all around us now, we have looked to our blindspots
frequently, trying to avoid collisions.
after the big carrier crossed our line of sight, we were able to pick up our target again, just before it approached the firing bearing of 343 degrees, we also picked up a ship approaching
us on a collision course, and we put the submarine to reverse, back 2/3's, to avoid the collision, and began the firing sequence, once the target was on bearing 343.
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3973/15lv6.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=15lv6.jpg)
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1917/17vc6.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=17vc6.jpg)
still backing up to avoid the collision, the first torpedo hits the carrier, as the bow of an enemy ship, collides with the forward section of s-38, pushing
her down to 69 ft, but not causing any damage, accept to the deck gun that had been damaged earlier in an air attack.
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7707/18gk2.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=18gk2.jpg)
all four torpedoes have hit the carrier.
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7308/20hp9.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20hp9.jpg)
the enemy carrier was destroyed and sank at 18:11.
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7871/21ca2.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=21ca2.jpg)
clearing the ship that collided with us, s-38 went to flank, and crashed dived, and settled at a depth of 260 feet, on the way down, she was attacked, approximately 6 depth charges came close,
no damage, and she turned to the back azimuth of the convoy, until we had put distance between us and any attacking destroyer.
at 18:27, not hearing any destroyer approch us for quite sometime, s-38 came to all stop, and secured from silent running.
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7871/21ca2.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=21ca2.jpg)
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/2918/25ok7.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=25ok7.jpg)

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4806/26po1.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=26po1.jpg)