More attractive SH4

[maerean_m]

Do you think SH4 will more attractive to new players if
you would have unlimited torpedoes (the reserves would fill up immediately)
the enemy would see you 10 times harder
your sub couldn't sink/die, even when heavily hit
your crewmen couldn't diewhen playing on easy mode?

Should all these be put in a GOD mode checkbox selectable from the "Gameplay settings" menu?


Do you think more people would be interested in SH4 if there would be a small manual accessible from the game's interface to explain the AOB, the steps for estimating target's speed etc? What else should that manual contain?

[C DuDe]

No, a good Demo would and maybe a tutorial inserted.

[Seadogs]

I really don't think it attracts many "arcady" types to begin with. But thats just me talking and I don't know squat.

However, I don't think it could ever be a bad idea for ingame documentation.

[the_belgian]

I selected the best of the two but both could be welcome(if the first would be a full selectable option i would set it to
NO you would have unlimited torpedoes (the reserves would fill up immediately)
NO the enemy would see you 10 times harder
NO your sub couldn't sink/die, even when heavily hit
NO your crewmen couldn't die
:smug: )

[AVGWarhawk]

Inception of the game to the gaming community I recall quite a few asking if there is unlimited torpedoes button. I do not think there was a call for a undestructable mode within the game. However, there is a small group who like such things and enjoy playing that way. Uberboot for SH3 comes to mind concerning this. With exception of unlimited torpedoes I do not see a benefit of any of the others mentioned in the poll. You will find that most players long for the ultimate realism short of actually manning a submarine and sinking ships in the real world.

[JScones]

1. I'm not for rolling all the "easy" options into one GOD mode, as it is a bit subjective, but I do think that having unlimited torpedoes, indestructable sub/crew and decreased enemy visual options could be quite handy for some players.

I mean, I can't recall many, if any, simulations that don't have such options. And while that by itself is no reason to justify adding them to SH4, I can see times where even more mainstream players just want to go out and blast things, let alone new players easing themselves into the game.

I'd also suggest something like a decreased enemy AI option as well, but having not really played SH4, such an option may not be needed - others can comment on that. Likewise, is there currently an unlimited fuel option? I guess there would be (I really should install SH4).

Although, having said this, I prolly still question if the return is really worth the investment - I don't know how much effort it would be to add such options. But if the investment is small, then why not open SH4 up to a broader style of playing?

2. Definately agree on the manual inclusion.

[AkbarGulag]

Likewise, is there currently an unlimited fuel option? I guess there would be (I really should install SH4).
Certainly is Scones.. its one of the checkbox options in the game settings. Unlimited batteries as well if you want to motor around underwater ^^

I personally wouldn't be interested in GOD mode as I think it would make the game to shallow and it would bore me in minutes. But i'm sure there would be some who like such things... there always is in just about everyother game I guess.

[John Channing]

Given that the question is about atracting new players to the game there is no question that the first options would help.

Falcon 3.0 had a mode that allowed you to fly around and blow things up without ever getting hurt. This was a great help in getting you to learn how to fly, fight and play. It did get boring very quickly, but then you would start increasing the difficulty options (usually after going to some of the flight-sim boards and hearing how rewarding a "real" kill could be) until you developed some skills in the game.

The problem is that there are no "learner" sub-sims around. Prior to Falcon 3.0 most (if not all) flightsims were very simple affairs with the accent on gameplay and player rewards and not on fidelity. This allowed the hobby to develop a large following before the level of diffulty got increased to the level it is today.

With a new Subsim coming out every 2-3 years people just have to jump in and hope for the best. It must be very frustrating for new players.

As far as the in- game manual goes it would be better to have a voice over video instruction video included with the game as well as a printed tutorial (using screen shots from the video). It would not be that hard to do.

JCC

[TDK1044]

Yes. Offer a 'super easy' mode to attract arcade players. This would potentially increase sales, and players using that mode might then learn to play the game as a sim and understand that it's much more fun that way. The rest of us lose nothing by this option being included. :D

[ktrboston]

I do not think SH4 should have GOD mode were is the fun in that. I think that is why people buy SH4 to get the real deal. I think a tutural would be nice to explain some of the things you have stated above.

[elanaiba]

Frankly, I'm not sure that such options would touch the right players.

Easy options help, but at some point there is a risk that new players treat the game the wrong way, think its totally boring (unlimited torpedoes or not, unless a big check box changes the way the campaign works, they will have have about zero fun) and unrewarding.

There was this discussion of unlimited torpedoes for multiplayer. That would have lead to more than say 1/2 of the servers online using it, translating to ridiculous gameplay and no kill satisfaction, and even quicker abandoning of the online play.

[John Channing]

I guess my point is who are "the right players"?

I started out as a Subsim player with the usual list of software on my pc (SS2, Wolfpack, AOD. SSN 21 Seawolf, etc). One day I was in some software store and saw "Fleet Defender" and thought "Cool.. another way to blow up ships"! I started out with hard settings and just about gave up on the thing. Someone on the usenet group comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flightsims suggested I try easy mode and I was hooked.

I don't want to think how much I spent on flightsims since then.

People won't know if they are the right people until they try it. SHIV:WOTP has all of the other elements to hook the casual player (graphics, explosions, easy targeting) so it makes sense to me to have an option to open the tent flap up that last litle bit and welcome everybody in. Then, they can decide.

JCC

[mookiemookie]

Agreed with JScones...I suppose if God mode was an easy to implement option, it would be okay. But trying to be all things to all people can lead to mediocre results. As long as it doesn't detract from other aspects of the sim, then I don't see the harm.

Now better documentation on the other hand, would be wonderful. Especially in light of the way the instruction manual is.

[Sonarman]

Perhaps Ubi should follow the lead of Werner Sobe with his excellent tutorial videos.

[Ducimus]

Best way to help new players in a submarine simulation, is with easy to understand documentation informing them of information they are not aware of.

[cunnutazzo]

Best way to help new players in a submarine simulation, is with easy to understand documentation informing them of information they are not aware of.

... offering to the customers a well completed game without too many bugs! :lol:

[John Channing]

Let's try to answer the man's question and keep the editorializing to a minimum, ok?

JCC

[elanaiba]

I think the right way is to have a gradual, logical learning curve that lures the player in and helps him both play the game and see that it is worth taking the time to learn more and dig deeper.

Easy way in? Hell yes! Godmode? No, I don't think so.

I always felt that hardcore flight sims and sims in general are more rewarding and spectacular than many arcade crap games. I've never sweat like I did in my Falcon 3 fights.

Make no mistake about it, there is no crazy hardcore realism freak at the helm of SH4.

Given the resources, we would do both the "core" and soft shell that helps new players.

[TDK1044]

Given the resources, we would do both the "core" and soft shell that helps new players.

But given the fact that you're never going to be given those resources, Dan, in order to increase sales and attract the 'shoot em up' young console crowd, what do you lose by offering a "Godmode' option? Nobody here loses anything because we love sims and the challenges that they afford us, and if in order to increase sales and keep Ubisoft interested in the Silent Hunter franchise means attracting a younger console demographic to the game by offering a child like setting...who cares? Give them an invunerable sub and let them shoot the s**t out of stuff.:D

[elanaiba]

Tudor (check credits) and I have this joke about 7+ age rating: "Oh yeah, 7 years of Naval Academy".

Again, my opinion is that a simple godmode wouldn't do that much, because playing godmode ON would be only fun if you could find them targets, and the transition to "normal" would be as hard as it is now.

A little more work is needed elsewhere.

And, too much of little resources spent "elsewhere" may mean less of them in "core" areas. We've had enough of the boycott/won't buy/sue ubi threads as it is now, thank you very much :)

Anyway, take this for what it is - a debate on a forum.

[John Channing]

So a workable compromise would be a training campaign that starts with basic navigation, moves up through plotting an intercept course, a simple attack, a more complex attack, evading one escort, evading several escorts, and then a complete convoy attack.

The kicker would be that you would need an instructor on board with you in the same manner as the "Jane's Longbow" training missions (probably the best tutorials ever made for a combat sim).

All of this would have to be completed before you could take command of your own sub.

Works for me.

JCC

[fredbass]

So a workable compromise would be a training campaign that starts with basic navigation, moves up through plotting an intercept course, a simple attack, a more complex attack, evading one escort, evading several escorts, and then a complete convoy attack.

The kicker would be that you would need an instructor on board with you in the same manner as the "Jane's Longbow" training missions (probably the best tutorials ever made for a combat sim).

All of this would have to be completed before you could take command of your own sub.

Works for me.

JCC

Works for me too :up:

[panzer 49th]

I really don't think it attracts many "arcady" types to begin with.

It attracted me im an arcady type (not in this game though nothing arcade about it) (to a certain degree that is)

[ReallyDedPoet]

Something I think that would help would be some threads talking about some of the great things going on with SH4 now versus what was there in the beginning, SH4 bashing, etc., etc.

I am sure some of the newer members saw some of the earlier stuff and left as quick as they could :yep:

To me there is enough in the current game settings and mods for just about any level of player.


RDP

[AVGWarhawk]

So a workable compromise would be a training campaign that starts with basic navigation, moves up through plotting an intercept course, a simple attack, a more complex attack, evading one escort, evading several escorts, and then a complete convoy attack.

The kicker would be that you would need an instructor on board with you in the same manner as the "Jane's Longbow" training missions (probably the best tutorials ever made for a combat sim).

All of this would have to be completed before you could take command of your own sub.

Works for me.

JCC


Now that would be very nice. Earn your dolphins as it were. Get quailifed before you take the helm.

[Bear]

Attractive to "NEW" players. I started out on first person shooter sims. Yes, a God Mode is what I liked in the beginning. Blast the hell out of something/someone and enjoy the graphics.

My personality is such that I bored of that shortly and moved straight to the hardest level and of course got my butt beat, but I was hooked. Then I read the manual, then I did the tutioral missions.

To me the hardest part of a tactial sim is getting from point A to point B. If any of you played the CFS sims you remember that once you got X miles from your take off point you could hit the x button and be within range of the enemy quickly. You would drop out of warp, so to speak, a few miles from contact. TC in SH4 does not cut it, since you drop out ever few seconds due to radio traffic.

Even with the fantastic graphics of SH4, you can only enjoy a smoke on the bridge on a beautiful moon lite night a few dozen times unless you are a HCS, before that gets boring.

So if the question is posed to sell more units to keep UBI happy so they can keep us happy with a "good" expansion or SH5? I say Yes to a God mode, warp drive or whatever it takes to get NEW people to buy it.

I believe if they play it for just a little while they will want to play it on a harder level before long. Ha, Just make it an option. I like options... :up:

[Marko_Ramius]

Someone spoke about Falcon 3 and yes, it was, for me, very usefull to have enough options to begin with this complex sim.

I'd say that yes, make a "god mod". it's always useful, without hurting the "hard core gamers".


Imagine a father who like realism and play SH4, then let the game to his very young sun : Both could be very happy and have fun with the game.


I already said this : The accesibility is part of the overall quality of a game.

[Mostinius]

I don't think a god mode would be strictly necessary, although I do agree with the points about providing a way to ease new players into sub sims - or into one particular sub sim.

My suggestion would be, firstly, comprehensive tutorials and context help built into the game. Second, a series of training missions (SH4 already has training missions, but they tend not to offer help while in progress, which would be useful).

Finally, I'd suggest that rather than make the player's boat indestructible, the best way to provide an easy in for the game would be to make the campaign tweakable. Rather than just choosing easy-medium-hard, like most games do, I'd allow the player comprehensive control over every aspect of the campaign generation engine (whatever it is), as well as the existing realism options. Using sliders or switches or whatever at the beginning of the campaign, the player could specify:
The average number of ships that're likely to appear in any one encounter, and the available margin around the average that can be used for variation. So choosing 'one' and no margin would mean you only ever meet one ship at a time. There'd be a 'disable' option for this slider that would put the game into realistic mode.
The density of convoys and groups in the play area (the higher the number the more frequently you'll encounter ships).
The ratio of warships to merchants: from 100% merchant traffic down to a realistic distribution (you could, I suppose, include an option for 100% warships as well, but personally I can't see the point).
The frequency and intensity of air attacks, down to a possible 'air attacks disabled' setting.
The enemy's sensor effectiveness and tactical skill (down to zero for a happy hunting experience unmolested by things going bang all over you).
A modifier for enemy weapon destructiveness. Even if they hit you, you could shrug it off. Again, the maximum setting would be realistic damage - or, I suppose, if you were a real glutton for punishment, you could allow for even higher settings (but again, I don't know why you'd want to).
The frequency of different mission types, weighed between general patrols, photography, and such like; and the areas the missions are likely to put you.You get the idea, I'm sure. It's true that most people will probably want high realism and the challenge that comes with it. The fact is that some players do play for fun more than education, and some inevitably find they have more fun playing a less realistic game - at least at first. Might be hard for some of the more dedicated simmers to understand, but there it is. As long as the full-realism options are there for those who want them, though, further options can only expand the game's appeal.

[mookiemookie]

I don't think a god mode would be strictly necessary, although I do agree with the points about providing a way to ease new players into sub sims - or into one particular sub sim.

My suggestion would be, firstly, comprehensive tutorials and context help built into the game. Second, a series of training missions (SH4 already has training missions, but they tend not to offer help while in progress, which would be useful).

Finally, I'd suggest that rather than make the player's boat indestructible, the best way to provide an easy in for the game would be to make the campaign tweakable. Rather than just choosing easy-medium-hard, like most games do, I'd allow the player comprehensive control over every aspect of the campaign generation engine (whatever it is), as well as the existing realism options. Using sliders or switches or whatever at the beginning of the campaign, the player could specify:
The average number of ships that're likely to appear in any one encounter, and the available margin around the average that can be used for variation. So choosing 'one' and no margin would mean you only ever meet one ship at a time. There'd be a 'disable' option for this slider that would put the game into realistic mode.
The density of convoys and groups in the play area (the higher the number the more frequently you'll encounter ships).
The ratio of warships to merchants: from 100% merchant traffic down to a realistic distribution (you could, I suppose, include an option for 100% warships as well, but personally I can't see the point).
The frequency and intensity of air attacks, down to a possible 'air attacks disabled' setting.
The enemy's sensor effectiveness and tactical skill (down to zero for a happy hunting experience unmolested by things going bang all over you).
A modifier for enemy weapon destructiveness. Even if they hit you, you could shrug it off. Again, the maximum setting would be realistic damage - or, I suppose, if you were a real glutton for punishment, you could allow for even higher settings (but again, I don't know why you'd want to).
The frequency of different mission types, weighed between general patrols, photography, and such like; and the areas the missions are likely to put you.You get the idea, I'm sure. It's true that most people will probably want high realism and the challenge that comes with it. The fact is that some players do play for fun more than education, and some inevitably find they have more fun playing a less realistic game - at least at first. Might be hard for some of the more dedicated simmers to understand, but there it is. As long as the full-realism options are there for those who want them, though, further options can only expand the game's appeal.

I think those are all great ideas. I've played games with settings like that as options, so it can be done. It would allow people to customize their experiences and it would allow people like me to play it as hardcore as they liked. :up:

[SS401]

Hallo maerean_m,

you may excuse my English and hopefully understand what I would like to express.

I'm quiet new to the Subs. Played my last game about ten, fifteen years and more ago. Now, for a couple of month its for me - from the deep blue sky to the deep of the ocean. From „fast“ and „seconds“ to „slow“ and „hours“. It is still not easy for me to understand and to get the craftmannship to handle a Sub and a crew like a Captain have to! I'm playing on "Easy"

To get more fans and players for SH4 – I would do what TDK1044 is saying in his first Post! Just like that – do it! He's right no doubt about it!

To get into the game/life of the deep blue sea, the Thrill to hunt, to calculate, to be smart and so on – yes you need something like a real school. You need a very good training and understanding of the work of a Seaman. In the German UBI forum i.e. they wrote a good book!!

This game is still full of a lot off errors and bugs. Eliminate them – One by One. That would be a step into the right direction as well, I am absolute sure! Thats the way to keep the Moral up! ;)

And last but not least – don't be to proud. Take the help and the ideas of all the People you can get. There are fantastic, very clever people around here, with brilliant Talent! Get them involved – and you will be No. 1 ! :D

Good luck
SS401 :)

[wetwarev7]

Why can't I vote "no"? :hmm:

[simonb1612]

Anything that could increase the number of players would be a good thing as long as it were an option and not something that would take away the experience of realism that the current dedicated fans enjoy. I think that a larger customer base would benefit us all. Ubisoft = higher profits, gamers = better service (hopefully) and better products from both Ubi and others such as graphics card companies that prioritize their fixed based on the popularity of games.

[Snuffy]

I didn't vote for the reason there are not enough choices.

[donut]

Hallo maerean_m,

you may excuse my English and hopefully understand what I would like to express.

I'm quiet new to the Subs. Played my last game about ten, fifteen years and more ago. Now, for a couple of month its for me - from the deep blue sky to the deep of the ocean. From „fast“ and „seconds“ to „slow“ and „hours“. It is still not easy for me to understand and to get the craftsmanship to handle a Sub and a crew like a Captain have to! I'm playing on "Easy"

To get more fans and players for SH4 – I would do what TDK1044 is saying in his first Post! Just like that – do it! He's right no doubt about it!

To get into the game/life of the deep blue sea, the Thrill to hunt, to calculate, to be smart and so on – yes you need something like a real school. You need a very good training and understanding of the work of a Seaman. In the German UBI forum i.e. they wrote a good book!!

This game is still full of a lot off errors and bugs. Eliminate them – One by One. That would be a step into the right direction as well, I am absolute sure! Thats the way to keep the Moral up! ;)

And last but not least – don't be to proud. Take the help and the ideas of all the People you can get. There are fantastic, very clever people around here, with brilliant Talent! Get them involved – and you will be No. 1 ! :D

Good luck
SS401 :) Late war,the game,w/experience is like shooting fish in a barrel,but then we are winning.:rock:

[John Channing]

Why can't I vote "no"? :hmm:

You just did.

:D

JCC

[Joe S]

remember the good old days of SHI when you could set the ability of the enemy, decide whether or not the convoy would be escorted, etc, etc,etc, they dont make them like that any more. Now the emphasis is on graphics at the apparent expense of gameplay. Joe S

[John Channing]

I am not sure how being able to determine what type of adversary you come up against would make for a better game.

For gameplay purposes isn't it a lot better not to know what you are up against, like real life?

JCC

[Sailor Steve]

Those settings in SH1 were for single missions only. You couldn't control those things in a campaign. SH1 also had many times more encounters than real life, and escorts that would instantly regain contact if you went to high TC while escaping.

It had its good points, but there were some bad as well.

[TDK1044]

If it would increase sales, I see nothing wrong with having an 'Arcade Mode' menu for the 'shoot em up' brigade.

The true simmer would never allow his mouse to slide anywhere near it, but the true simmer might not have a Silent Hunter 5 sim to play without it.

[Mostinius]

I am not sure how being able to determine what type of adversary you come up against would make for a better game.

For gameplay purposes isn't it a lot better not to know what you are up against, like real life?If you're confident in playing and you want the realism of a full-on simulation, then yes, of course it's better. But if you're not yet 100% on the workings of the game - or if you're simply one of those players who's less interested in exacting detail - and you want to skew the odds in your favour then the option would be there for you to tweak the opposition.

The point would be to make the game more customisable to take account of the hard-core simmers and accommodate the more casual gamers of whatever skill level. In flight sims, Falcon 4 did it admirably, allowing the player to adjust realism settings a la SH4; and also allowing for a bit of control over his or her squadron's mission emphasis (air intercept; interdiction; Wild Weasel; etc) and the likely skill level of opposition, and so on.

[Incubus]

I agree on a tutorial mode.

One reason its so hard for me to wrap my head around manually producing a torpedo solution and hitting a ship is because the way I learn really favors a tutorial. I really wish there was a game mode where it basically talks you through each step. The instruction manual does adress this, but trying to have the manual open while doing it for the first time is frustrating- its easy to get lost/lose my place, or get stuck not knowing how they did the next step.

The mode I'd like to see, is basically like this: Your boat is motionless, and you have a tutorial where it explains how to get a solution on a motionless target. Maybe the first tutorial is the simplest- each step the game shows you what to do, and you must do the same thing in order to proceed, with an 'i don't get it button' going into more detail/explaining it in a simpler manner. They could have 5 training modes, with various ways of getting a solution (including using sonar, which is really cool, and also attacking convoys effectively). The torpedoes in this mode would insta-reload after they hit, so if you missed you could simply tweak some data and try again. After practicing in a mode like that for an hour or two, I would be a lot more confident about doing it at 100% realism. Similarly, I'd like to see tutorial modes in-game for other things, like tracking targets with map contacts off, and other miscellaneous things that are hard for me to do if they aren't automated in-game.

[kiwi_2005]

I play the game with unlimited fuel :yep::roll: Well i got enough trouble dealing with aircraft that i dont want to worry about fuel!