Ok no way they heard me!

[GoldenRivet]

Im not one to usually complain about this sort of thing but this is increadible. :nope:

There i am in my VIIC in 1945, i pull into a spot of the ocean where i think im going to be fairly safe from contacts to wait out the last 3 or 4 days of the war. i dove down to 130 meters, stopped engines and rigged for silent running to wait it out to the end of hostilities. after about a half a day in the game, while im stopped down deep, hydrophone contacts are now approaching... A small group of destroyers passes about 1500-2000m off my starboard side moving at approximately 15-20 knots parallel to my boat.

suddenly, while still at 130 meters, silent running and stopped... the pinging begins by one of the destroyers, im not sure whichone, But eventually all three were making hedge hog attacks and DC attacks on me. initially with serious accuracy!

i used decoys, and eventually dove to 230 meters creeping along at one knot using my usual evasive tactics. some of their depth charge attacks were very inacurate but still too close for comfort.

eventually they were attacking one of my decoys. i was slipping away and got about 3K meters from the location where they were attacking. I maintained one knot, checked the depth - holding steady at 230 meters. smooth sailing, no damage, 230 meters is looking good. heading was looking good, i felt confident of escaping these uber-destroyers.

suddenly. death screen. "U-boat destroyed by pressure" :damn:

i consider myself to be pretty good at understanding how sonar works and how GWX works and how to avoid detection... but i think it is pretty rediculous that a destroyer group that (A) has no previous knowlege of my existance or my position (B) is moving at a high rate of speed... can detect a U-boat that is (C) 130 meters depth (D) rigged for silent running (E) all stopped and (F) already has a low aspect ratio!!! - can detect my sub.

perhaps someone of more experience than myself can provide me with some insight as to how the GWX destroyers are capable of such feats :rotfl:

now...

i understand that they are always EITHER listening or Pinging, i just dont understand how they initially detected me in the first place.

[ichso]

Perhaps they were just pinging around like the escorts of convoys do it ?
They can't do that at full speed, but if they were going at only 15kn it might be possible.

But still it would have been luck if you were not showing them your broad side.
Sounds strange alltogether.
I could imaginge that the SH3 engine is a little bit generic about that. That late in the war the DD's were such concious, experienced and well equiped that they had a high chance of detecting subs.

So they get your contact even if it seems unlogical, but it's perhaps a little randomized or cheated too.
This could simulate that u-boats were detected even if they didn't know why.

[GoldenRivet]

guess this is another one for the Bernard file.

Little known facts about "The bernard file"

-BdU records division has an entire archive dedicated to "the Bernard file" :nope:

-Germany lost the second world war because of all of the resources and manpower that went into compiling, maintaining and producing ink, type writers and paper for the upkeep of the Bernard File.

-An entire library had to be constructed to contain the Bernard File by January of 1940. However the initial warehouse compound proved too small because the Bernard file had grown to include so many documents by the time the building was completed.

-Eventually an entire compound of archival warehouses were built for the purpose of containing the Bernard file.

-approximately 117,000 gallons of standard black ink was used every year by the Kriegsmarine to type case reports which had been contributed to the bernard file.

-15,270 Gestapo agents, undercover or otherwise have been listed as killed in the line of duty or missing while searching for or investigating the mysterious "Bernard" during the course of the entire war. Interestingly, each agent death was attributed to unexplainable circumstances.

-to this date, over 60 years after the closure of hostilities, the Berlin postal service STILL forwards a back log of Bernard file documents to the present day Bundestag.

-recently declassified documents from the bernard file indicate that a slip of paper was found near the bodies of Adolf and Eva in their Berlin bunker which contained only one small phrase... "E Tu Bernard"

-Prior to the German invasion of North Africa, the sahara desert was a fertile forrest, however all of the trees were harvested within a 9 month period so that paper production for the Bernard file could be sustained. It is rumored by military historians that the upkeep of the Bernard file's paper needs and Germany's Oil needs were the two main strategic reasons behind the North African invasion. Still today the lush sahara forrest is only sand.

- Every time you lick a stamp, you're consuming 1/10 of a calorie. It is for this reason that correspondence clerks responsible for the distribution of documents related to the Bernard file never had to eat, and in fact gained weight at a steady pace.

-The first three pages of Germany's Surrender to the allied powers were typed on the back of paper which was borrowed from the bernard file archives... at the time there were no clean sheets of paper remaining anywhere in all of Germany.

-recently declassified bernard file documents indicate that the final enigma transmissions from 111 U-boats were simply one word... "Bernard!!!"

[papa_smurf]

Sounds like you were just very unlucky that time.

Or just blame it on Bernard - everyone else does.

[Brag]

Sounds like you were just very unlucky that time.

Or just blame it on Bernard - everyone else does.

:damn: :dead: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

@Goldenrivet:

At 130 meters deep and within 2000 meters radius of (1945) late war sonar... you are certainly at risk and within sonar range of possible detection.

Ships are apparently able to use active sonar in SH3 while they are at speeds over 15 kts. I would not say that this is typical of all ships at the moment, as I've never experienced this phenomenon during the months I adjusted the enemy ASW sensors. (I have not yet found ANY moddable setting that allows for cutting ASW sonar useage off at certain speeds.)

Having a low aspect ratio offers protection, but is not a guarantee... and is certainly not a bullet-proof vest.

Elite enemy units... and especially hunter-killer groups in SH3 are deadly to begin with... give them advanced ASW systems at the end of the war... and you don't even want to make contact with them.

In my experience elite units are much more "vigorous" at searching and pinning targets during patrol sweeps... AND work as a team to sink the player sub. Only one vessel needs to be in contact with you, and can "direct other units" as in real life.

At any rate, it would be pointless if hunter killer groups went out on patrol sweeps and did not use active sensors to search.

You also have a PM.

[joegrundman]

And that PM contains the top secret submarine launched harpoon missile mod

[GoldenRivet]

@Goldenrivet:

At 130 meters deep and within 2000 meters radius of (1945) late war sonar... you are certainly at risk and within sonar range of possible detection.

Ships are apparently able to use active sonar in SH3 while they are at speeds over 15 kts. I would not say that this is typical of all ships at the moment, as I've never experienced this phenomenon during the months I adjusted the enemy ASW sensors. (I have not yet found ANY moddable setting that allows for cutting ASW sonar useage off at certain speeds.)

Having a low aspect ratio offers protection, but is not a guarantee... and is certainly not a bullet-proof vest.

Elite enemy units... and especially hunter-killer groups in SH3 are deadly to begin with... give them advanced ASW systems at the end of the war... and you don't even want to make contact with them.

In my experience elite units are much more "vigorous" at searching and pinning targets during patrol sweeps... AND work as a team to sink the player sub. Only one vessel needs to be in contact with you, and can "direct other units" as in real life.

At any rate, it would be pointless if hunter killer groups went out on patrol sweeps and did not use active sensors to search.

You also have a PM.

i see, so they would have been pinging already to begin with, i just wouldnt be able to hear the pinging until i was within their pinging range?

that makes sense :up:

thanks

[Jimbuna]

I have responded Kaleun :arrgh!:

[Shelton]

yea i was going to say 130 meters thats quite shallow for 1945 technology - remember depth is your best friend!

[GoldenRivet]

yeah... 130 is pretty shallow, but i was trying to hold real still. :rotfl:

I assumed (when you assume you make an ass of U and me) but i assumed that at all stopped and silent i could let this group pass by and survive a career i have been runing for a while... 3 or 4 days left!!!

anyhow

something Kapt. Lehmann pointed out that i didnt even consider was that they may have been banging away with their active sonar the whole time and not just all of the sudden.

i didnt mean to imply frustration with GWX or SH3... just frustration of being so close to the end and fuggin' it up on something like this and i hoped someone might have been able to explain what i could have done differently to evade this group- I knew better than to do it the way i did, but options can become quite limited in quite a hurry. :damn:

[_Seth_]

A little OT:
Bernard survived WWII, but due to his "achivements" in the Kriegsmarine, he was later transferred to the Luftwaffe... as a Sergeant in a Luftstalag....Stalag 13, if i remember correctly.....He also changed his last name to Schultz..:lol::lol:

(When do we get the wikipeida-article about Bernard.....:rotfl:)

[GoldenRivet]

DANG!

...i was this close to including something linking bernard to Hogans Heroes :rotfl:

[Jaeger]

i observed the same uber DD capabilities. look at the thread "GWX uber AI demistified" by Ducimus. they can spot you, if your sub is in their active sonar range, which is about 2000 meter in late war. they can always detect you, silent running and full stop doesnt give advantages. if they would be pinging all the time, you should here the ping. but you cant here a ping until you are in active sonar range. if entered this range, they activate their sonar gear and try to find you. thats the game. try to stay more than 2000 meters away, when a group is passing, or you can be detected.

greetz, Jaeger

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Well, just a thought here.

When using GWX in 1945... you really need to play as if they are trying to kill you.:lol:

In fact, play paranoid.

...and you need to use every trick in the book to shake 'em.

I do admit to having a bit of a chuckle remembering something me and some of my army buddies would do when we were bored...

We'd be in the middle of the desert wearing green... then we'd freeze suddenly and proclaim, "I'm camoflaged! You can't see me!"

1945 was something like that for U-boats.

[GoldenRivet]

your right, and i do... usually play paranoid after 1943

i saw the short time remaining on the callender and got complaicent which is totally against my way of playing and it got my DiD career killed :damn:

[Sailor Steve]

On the other hand, realistically you shouldn't be able to stop underwater and just sit there; especially for several days. You should have to keep moving at least two or three knots just to maintain depth.

[robj250]

I know I'm gonna get bombarded for this, But, for the "realistic" effects of GWX seem to me to be a little too much "realistic".

A person would not know how realistic things were if that person was not in a ship that got hit by a torpedo and survived to tell about how long it took a ship to sink, or others who sat there and watched how long, or have been in a U-boat to tell us what it was really like.:hmm:

Or a sonar and ASDIC operator to tell us what it was like.

How long did it take a monster of a ship like the Titanic to sink?:hmm:

Okay, go ahead and give it to me.:arrgh!:

Oh yea, They would not let me into the Navy cause I was to short:rotfl: :rotfl:

[robj250]

Just ignore robj250 and he'll go away :D

[GoldenRivet]

well rob the thing you have to think about is this...

The modders use a lot of time and energy to research volumes of articles, books, websites, historical technical data and the like to create an SH3 mod like GWX for example that is as close to reality as SH3's hard code allows.

those historical documents, books and the like were written often by those who were there first hand, or written by people who had at the very least interviewed dozens of people who were there.

just FYI... according to crew and eye witnesses the titanic took approximately 2 hours and 40 minutes to sink. and that was supposedly the result of several jagged rips along the starboard bow... not a gaping wound from a torpedo. and torpedoes dont always tear massive holes in a ship. In some cases the ship may only develop a major stress fracture or crack that allows sea water into the ship at a slower rate than a gaping hole.

I have read books that indicate that a hand full of torpedoed tankers burned while afloat for upwards of 4 days before finally sinking.

Hans Goebler was one such man who survived as a U-Boat crewman to tell us what it was like in his co-written book "Steel boat, Iron Hearts" in which he basically describes a hunter killer group as being an inescapable threat to the U-boats. If a U-boat encountered a HK group it was 99.9% assured that you were done for. A ww2 era submarine simply MUST surface at some point or another to recharge oxygen or batteries and with the HK group being constantly surrounded by air patrols, destroyers, radar, radio direction finders and that bloody floating airport there was very little chance you would escape them. modern subs dont have so much of a problem with this because they can pretty much stay submerged indefinately but in this kind of battle a ww2 era sub is hosed.

in fact... during WW2 a U-boat crew had roughly a 25% chance of surviving the war. therfore, in theory, if you were to play 10 campaigns in GWX only 2 or 3 of them would result in survival... and perhaps 2 of those 3 survived campaigns were the result of surrender at sea through SH3 commander. the other 7 or 8 campaigns would result only in death.

It's my personal opinion that GWX replicates the lethality of the u-boat struggle with as much perfection as can be obtained by any SH3 mod.

perhaps the GWX devs should consider releasing an eye candy only mod for players who want an arcade like experience? stock sensors and stock air patrols but with all of the pretty boats and harbor traffic?

call it "GWX Lite"??? :hmm:

[The Munster]

Just ignore robj250 and he'll go away :D

You missed the ignore thread that ran thru the week; we all ignored it.

[bigboywooly]

Plus we are all limited to the game engine
Settings that work in RL dont work ingame
Meh

[Blacklight]

-BdU records division has an entire archive dedicated to "the Bernard file" :nope:


Apparently, the United States, Russia, and China all have Bernard files as well. There are massive ammounts of incidences that have occured for these countries in project "Dangerous Waters" that have been reccorded as well. :nope:

[GoldenRivet]

i cought a glimpse of the ignore thread... but i ignored it :lol:

it must have hit its peak right about the time i was getting on the Mission Space ride at Disney World in Orlando early last week!!! :rock:

[BROJD]

I was approaching a convoy tonight guarded by two DDs (late 1939). I was getting good readings on the distant DD from my hydrophone operator, but the closer one wasn't showing up, even when I was at periscope depth and could see him clearly 4500 meters away (and bearing 290 degrees). I went deep and went silent, 0 knots, but he still found me and pinged me, even though I still wasn't getting hydrophone readings on his location.

I would try to sprint forward every time he made a DC pass to lose him, but he always reacquired me.

I got sunked. It stunk. I'm still trying to figure out this game.

[Jimbuna]

Check the credentials of your hydrophone guy and judging by the distances you are quoting, why not pop into his shack and have a listen yourself (manually) ?
It is possible one was listening and being led to your location by the other (that's how they often did it in RL) :arrgh!:

[Shelton]

I was approaching a convoy tonight guarded by two DDs (late 1939). I was getting good readings on the distant DD from my hydrophone operator, but the closer one wasn't showing up, even when I was at periscope depth and could see him clearly 4500 meters away (and bearing 290 degrees). I went deep and went silent, 0 knots, but he still found me and pinged me, even though I still wasn't getting hydrophone readings on his location.

I would try to sprint forward every time he made a DC pass to lose him, but he always reacquired me.

I got sunked. It stunk. I'm still trying to figure out this game.

how deep was deep? hopefully you went to 150m ?

[BROJD]

I went down to 80-100 m. Do I need to go deeper? :damn:

[Jimbuna]

I went down to 80-100 m. Do I need to go deeper? :damn:

If your using SH3 Commander with random thermal layers....at times you'll need to go beyond 200+ metres :arrgh!:

[Brag]

I went down to 80-100 m. Do I need to go deeper? :damn:

Minimum 150 meters.
If you stay in oone location, they will always reaquire you.

Move at 1 or 2 kts, with rudder set at 5 degrees. Go flank while he's dropping to get away from the cans. Go back to two knots or slower. The DD will need to find you again.

When you stopped, that was the mistake. He came from behind you and found you at DATUM point.

I stay at periscope depth when approaching a convoy. Surface noise makes it more difficult for DD to hear you.

If spotted by escort, I dive and go fast at PD for about a minute, then dive to about 50 meters and go quiet.

[Shelton]

remember depth is your friend when being attacked!

[gimpy117]

it's the exact oppsite in 1939....

[Pappy55]

My old man was a ASDIC Sonar operator on a Hunt class destroyer.
HMS Inconstant and another destroyer HMS Wilton.

one of these was responsable for a U-boat sinking. I can ask him about the range of British sonar when he was serveing.

I think secretly he wats to Hijack my PC to play SH-III and SH-IV.

back when i was a school kid my old Amiga was hijacked for Silent Service II :)

So tomorrow I will ask him about sonar range

[GoldenRivet]

Ask him specifically if they were capable of using their hydrophones to detect a drifting submarine (screws not turning) if it were down at about 100+ meters depth.

i think we have already determined through that they were using active sonar ASDIC randomly and just happened upon me.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Ask him specifically if they were capable of using their hydrophones to detect a drifting submarine (screws not turning) if it were down at about 100+ meters depth.

i think we have already determined through that they were using active sonar ASDIC randomly and just happened upon me.

Though I'm sure Pappy55's response will be interesting indeed, something you gentlemen need to know regarding SH3 is that simply plugging real-life data into the files does not necessarily yield a life-like performance. This is certainly true of the sensors as well.

ASDIC/Sonar was quite susceptible to water temperature which could cause the beam to warp or dissipate rapidly. This variable is not represented in SH3... Though you can use SH3 Commander to offer a representation of thermal layers, even then it does not offer a true representation of beam geometry changes.

(Just as I can't see a way to keep ASW ships from banging away with the active sonar above 15 kts... without potentially remodelling every ASW ship in GWX. That kind of extra work would be prohibitive at this stage anyway.)

With all possible due respect to the ASDIC operator's real-life service, it would take more than one statement to warrant another deep review of the ASW sensor package in GWX.

Memories fade or change with time. Add this and various other limitations of the objects we are working on, and you see the dilemma.

What we have now, is a working representation of ASW sensors becoming progressively more effective as the war goes on... as they did in real life. The player can most certainly survive them assuming that he adapts to them as time goes on. Though you must become more daring, run deeper, and be willing to LET A TARGET GO on occasion... GWX is certainly surviveable at the worst of times.

Furthermore, even a slight change to the sensors in GWX can lead to a cascade effect of dismal performances. I will not allow them to become a joke.

Do what you will. I'm sticking to my guns guys. We have a good thing going and I'm not going to torpedo it.

[GoldenRivet]

you and the rest of the team have come up with a working formula Kpt. :up:

id like to see his answer just for the sake of being that much more informed :know:

[Shelton]

My old man was a ASDIC Sonar operator on a Hunt class destroyer.
HMS Inconstant and another destroyer HMS Wilton.

one of these was responsable for a U-boat sinking. I can ask him about the range of British sonar when he was serveing.

I think secretly he wats to Hijack my PC to play SH-III and SH-IV.

back when i was a school kid my old Amiga was hijacked for Silent Service II :)

So tomorrow I will ask him about sonar range

ASDIC had a range of about 2000 to 2500 yards from my research.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

you and the rest of the team have come up with a working formula Kpt. :up:

id like to see his answer just for the sake of being that much more informed :know:

Oh me too. Don't get me wrong.:up:

ASDIC had a range of about 2000 to 2500 yards from my research.

Without looking, that's pretty much what we have as well. I'm guessing that you meant 'meters' though?

[GoldenRivet]

yeah prolly meant meters, i always catch myself saying yards too

[Shelton]

yes your right meters.

[Pappy55]

I asked him about the hydrophones and he said it is possible.. Unlikley but still possible.

I have a few questions about what happened before you were found..

Were you far from your last contact and did you engage it?

I am thinking maybe you were detected in an encounter and they sent out the hunters to look for you.

I have attacked ports with only merchants in before and on my way out a few miles from land there were a pair of Destroyers comeing my way at flank speed as well as aircraft circleing the area.

Just my theory..

[GoldenRivet]

I asked him about the hydrophones and he said it is possible.. Unlikley but still possible.

I have a few questions about what happened before you were found..

Were you far from your last contact and did you engage it?

I am thinking maybe you were detected in an encounter and they sent out the hunters to look for you.

I have attacked ports with only merchants in before and on my way out a few miles from land there were a pair of Destroyers comeing my way at flank speed as well as aircraft circleing the area.

Just my theory..

i was only 2 or 3 days into the patrol and had no previous contacts, this group of 3 destroyers was my first contacts of this particular patrol.

at this moment im convinced that these destroyers were pinging and just happened upon me by sheer luck.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I asked him about the hydrophones and he said it is possible.. Unlikley but still possible.

I have a few questions about what happened before you were found..

Were you far from your last contact and did you engage it?

I am thinking maybe you were detected in an encounter and they sent out the hunters to look for you.

I have attacked ports with only merchants in before and on my way out a few miles from land there were a pair of Destroyers comeing my way at flank speed as well as aircraft circleing the area.

Just my theory..

I can confirm with certainty that ALL local ASW assets in-game are sent to hunt for you if you are detected in game.

For instance: You sink a destroyer, and within half an hour or so you are attacked by an aircraft... or vice-versa.

The AI will do its best to maintain contact with or re-acquire and destroy you once aware of your location.

Therefore, following an engagement, you must make yourself be somewhere else if you know that you are in an area that is likely to be saturated with patrolling enemy forces... such as the Bay of Biscay... Gibralter... etc etc.

Engage, and then displace.

[Cezbor]

I confirm that kpt., I experienced that too many times, Britts really throw everything they've got in the area to hunt you down, .... even if you were detected by a tiny sloop :-?

[dcb]

I can confirm with certainty that ALL local ASW assets in-game are sent to hunt for you if you are detected in game.


Is this certain also for convoys? Because when I attacked certain convoys I got the impression that some escorts - those close to my position - were hunting me, while others were doing their routine patrol moves. Even last night, I got detected while on surface by a Black Swan while shadowing a convoy. The sloop came at me guns blazing, but the other escorts plainly ignored me. And there were some destroyers able to reach me in no time, at their 34+ knots. Which wasn't the case and I ran away from the Black Swan on surface.

[Shelton]

I guess the other destroyers were there to protect the convoy from other uboat attacks.