A petition for Americans to sign...

[SUBMAN1]

I don't mind Bush doing what he wants to do in most circumstances, but this AT&T / NSA marriage has got to stop.

https://secure.eff.org/site/Advocacy?JServSessionIdr005=p853934856.app2a&cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=270

-S

[Rockin Robbins]

I hate to participate in turning Subsim into a political forum, but you started it. Let's have a little history lesson here about what you call "wiretapping". First, lets look at the value of "wiretapping" in eras past.

In World War I, the British, suspecting that the Germans were planning to stage a covert operation against the United States to keep us too busy to join the European war, tapped the transatlantic cable. They intercepted and decoded the Zimmerman telegram, advising the German ambassador to take a little vacation to Mexico and firm up the already in progress plan for an invasion of the US through Mexico. The proof the British supplied that the Germans were plotting to kill Americans on American soil put to rest the pitiful fantasies of the isolationists and convinced an anti-war president that sometimes war is unavoidable and that the choice to do nothing is a choice nonetheless. In this case it would have been a disasterous choice. Thank God for British wiretapping!

In WWII "wiretapping" and decoding of Japanese messages resulted in our full knowledge of plans for the Midway attack by a huge Japanese force. This allowed us to position our four lousy carriers, who stood no chance in a normal battle, in such a way that they soundly defeated the vastly superior Japanese navy in the decisive battle in the Pacific.

Similar decoding of the German enigma code and "wiretapping" allowed us a key to holding the battle of the Atlantic until hunter killer groups could be formed to isolate and eliminate individual U-Boats, who were still initially located by "wiretapping".

Now lets go to just 10 years ago. President Clinton's Echelon "wiretapping" project did not only intercept communications from terrorists overseas to American recipients as the present "wiretapping" program does. The Echelon program listened to every single cell phone conversation in the country, recording and analysing every single call from American to American for years! Where was your protest then? I don't hear you!!!! (Sargeant Carter voice from Gomer Pyle here)

The fact is the present hand-wringing over a much less egregious program is purely political in nature: the seizing of any means, honest or dishonest to attack political enemies. These attacks are made with the "peaceniks" full knowledge that this "wiretapping" (no quotes here this time coming up) is not wiretapping, it is interception of wireless broadcasts. It is interception not of internal communications, but of communications originating from outside to country.

Until some intillectual honesty is shown, no constructive dialog can take place. But your position is that when your guy listens to EVERY INTERNAL wireless conversation without court supervision or oversight of any kind, everything is hunky dorey! When "the enemy" listens to EXTERNALLY ORIGINATED calls to specific targets suspected of terrorist activities with increasing court supervision, that's "wiretapping" even though you know it is not wiretapping at all, as these are wireless communications.

It comes down to an issue of trust. Treating your position honestly, you trust Democrats and do not trust Republicans. Therefore crimes committed by Democrats are excusable and could be good. Everything done by the opposition is evil, rooted in hate for the American people they serve. There is not one human being of any worth in the opposite party to yours. Rubbish!

I certainly disagree heartily with many of the policies of President Roosevelt and Clinton. But I will be the first to say that they were absolutely committed to the welfare of America. Clinton took our military to Somalia against the wishes of the UN and into Yugoslavia unilaterally. You went along with that without reservation. Roosevelt allowed the British secret service to illegally operate out of New York City and made preparations for the British government to operate in exile from the US (illegally I might add), risking impeachment which surely would have followed had stupid isolationist Republicans of the age found out, when it looked like the British were about to join forces with the Germans in the prelude to WWII. The abdication of Edward had less to do with marrying a commoner than the redirection of Britian away from the Nazis. Read "A Man Called Intrepid." Learn. Think for yourself.

Although we come by our partisan nastiness honestly, inheriting it from our British progenitors, who are much more nasty and more entertaining when they do it (One night in the House of Commons, Churchill, after imbibing a few drinks, stumbled into Bessie Braddock, a corpulent Labourite member from Liverpool. An angry Bessie straightened her clothes and addressed the British statesman."Winston," she roared. "You are drunk, and what’s more, you are disgustingly drunk." Churchill, surveying Bessie, replied, "And might I say, Mrs. Braddock, you are ugly, and what’s more, disgustingly ugly. But tomorrow," Churchill added, "I shall be sober."), at some level we have to realize that in the cause of our own safety, sometimes we have to abandon the fun and games of politics and get on with self-protection. Whether that self-protection is done by "our guys" or "their guys" it needs to be done and will be done by either party.

Just watch when the Democrats win. And remember this post. And think. And learn. Then act accordingly next time.

Take her deep. Rig for silent running. Find that thermal layer quick, turn 90º left and reduce RPM to 100. Exec, you're one of those damn Republicans but take charge. Wake me at 0700.

[The Avon Lady]

Yep. :yep:

[bradclark1]

you trust Democrats and do not trust Republicans. Therefore crimes committed by Democrats are excusable and could be good.
:D :rotfl: I didn't know you switched parties SUBMAN1.

[Skybird]

you trust Democrats and do not trust Republicans. Therefore crimes committed by Democrats are excusable and could be good.
:D :rotfl: I didn't know you switched parties SUBMAN1.
:lol:

[bradclark1]

OT but.... This shows the "You are with us or against us" mentality. You question the wiretapping so therefore you are a Democrat. How about someone just thinks it's wrong and lord forbid, it's got nothing to do with politics but has to do with what that person perceives as basic American rights.
I don't know SUBMAN1's reason for starting this thread but I would assume (rightly or wrongly) that it has to do with abuse of power. The operation was started in an underhanded slimey way. When the facts come out and what they say isn't or they aren't forthcoming in information then one has to question why. I'm not talking about letting everyone into what they are doing but letting our countries leadership know the details. Congress's initial approval was done in good faith and that faith was abused.
My jury is still out and this isn't a black or white issue.

[Sailor Steve]

I'm not sure how I feel about this one either. They did say specifically that this was being done "outside the country". Doesn't make a difference? I'm not sure. I do think they've stepped a little over the line in a couple of areas (see my current sig), but I want more information on this one before I start protesting in earnest.