Bitter And Twisted

[Mostinius]

I make no excuses. This is a post written in deep and abiding bitterness and bad temper from the plummeting wreckage of yet another sunken submarine.

It's not the tedium of having to embark on yet another campaign just to get smacked down on the first encounter (lesson: save regularly).

It's not the annoyance of the omniscient destroyers (if you can see them, no matter how deep and slow you're travelling, or how dark it is, they can see you).

It's not the nuclear depth charges these people are using, just one of which will deal you mortal damage from miles away.

No, it's none of these things. It's that, once you get yourself into trouble and you know there's nothing to be done, you know that your crew is already dead. That they're still moving around, doing stuff and talking doesn't make a difference.

I know the crew are just simulated and so don't really matter. And I know Jim Kirk would save the day. But really: couldn't they have included an 'abandon ship' command?

:nope:

PS - Actually, it is partially those bloody destroyers. I mean, I'm in the smallest boat the USN issues, dived and sitting still; it's the middle of the night - I mean seriously the middle of the night: I couldn't see a damn thing... They STILL locked onto me from miles away and ran a beeline straight for me at full speed - smashed me to pieces in minutes. How do they DO that when I'm only barely able to detect them and the damn great liner they're transporting?

[SteamWake]

Im not sure what 'middle of the night' has to do with being spotted if your submerged :hmm:

[ReallyDedPoet]

Have a look at this: http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/ai.htm


RDP

[Mostinius]

Im not sure what 'middle of the night' has to do with being spotted if your submerged :hmm:Absolutely nothing. But the rest of it didn't help, so I thought I'd mention that that didn't either. :cool:

Have a look at this: http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/ai.htmGood article and interesting. Thanks. For what it's worth I knew about aspect angle, but fouled up elsewhere. And, I have to admit, the whole 'sit and wait for them to come to you' bit is one of my great failings, since I'm painfully aware how slow my boat is in comparison to the convoy I'm trying to hit. So, I tend to rush in where angels only go mob-handed with knuckledusters, rather than stand off and wait for the escorts to rush past. That said, I do recall wreaking very entertaining havoc on an eight-ship, two-column formation once by sitting horizontally between the columns and launching torps bow and stern as each pair went by. I didn't live to escape, sadly, but even so, good fun for a short while...!

[9th_cow]

It's not the nuclear depth charges these people are using, just one of which will deal you mortal damage from miles away.


That right there makes me so unhappy i would be banned from the forums for stating just how unhappy it makes me.

The fact that you cant make surface attacks at night is a bit of a pain too i must admit. but the depth charge thing is a real killer.

[Rockin Robbins]

I wonder why this is so different from my experience? Please don't think I'm just bragging here. Let's start out by asking whether you're running with the 1.3 patch, and then with what mods? That might be part of it. Then I'm afraid we're going to have to start paying as much attention to strategy and mechanics here at Subsim as we do to modifications.

OK, let's talk about long distance approach and strategy first. When you first detect ships it should be on radar. Attempt to identify what kind of ships you are dealing with. Specifically, we're trying to identify escort behavior. While the merchants will keep position the escorts will be buzzing around like little bees, changing heading and speed. When they are within sonar range, descend to periscope depth, take personal control of your hydrophone and count the escorts. Good. Now you know what the opposition is. Keep in mind that the sound of further escorts can be masked by merchants.

Now evaluate the sonar conditions. Smooth seas? No temperature layer down there? Less than 200' of water? Clear air with unlimited visibility? This is no time to tangle with destroyers. Stay away!

Are you in 3000 ft of water? Fog? Darkness? Rough seas? Nice thermal layer? The more of these there are, the more advantages you have.

Rules of engagement:

1. You want to be detected first by the sight of one of their fat, juicy merchants being blown to bits by a couple torpedoes.

2. When within 3000 yards of a hunting destroyer, you remain at periscope depth, engines at 100 rpm or less. You're stalking merchants, not destroyers. Keep track of them but realize your chances of torpedoing a fully alert destroyer are small. Believe it or not you're harder to find at periscope depth and you retain the offensive position.

3. Point your bow or stern to the nearest destroyer to display the smallest cross section.

4. Better to sink one ship than damage 3. Two or three torpedoes per target. If playing without Trigger Maru you can reduce that by 1 shoot 2 per target. Figure you'll have to hit 'em twice to sink 'em. Sometimes you will need more than that.

5. Don't fire til you see the whites of their eyes. Maximum range for a legitimate shot is 1000 yards. 500 or 600 is what you're looking for. Nothing less fun than risking your neck to miss your target. If you're gonna die, go with lots of company.

I'll leave it right here for someone else to jump in with more ideas. He needs pointers on periscope use, turning off manual targeting until he can run his sub and evasion tactics after the shooting is over. I bet I've left some things out too. Take it guys!:up:

Edit: Ducimus is the expert here. Check out his post in another thread: #7
(http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=622218&postcount=7)

[FAdmiral]

Ok, this is fairly standard on the different convoys I have been involved with
lately. June 1943 near Rabaul: A big passenger liner with 3 of Japans best
escorts guarding it. It is midday in good weather and I am surfaced runing
towards them after getting the 4 contacts on the hydrophones. Suddenly
an escort comes into view, it is at maxium distance so I think I have more time
to close on the surface. WRONG !! Another excort pops into view and both are
coming straight for me at 35 kts. I dive to PD bow on to them. At PD, I watch
them through the scope and now see 3 DDs coming for me, 1 back aways from
the other 2. I have been running at standard but when the lead DD gets to 4000
yds., I do a dive to 200 feet. As soon as I pass the thermal (140), I go to silent
and turn 90 deg. to port. 2 of them pass very near me & keep going. 1 is still
coming and as he approaches directly towards me, I turn 90 deg. to starboard.
He passes with no indication of detection and goes to join the other 2. Now they
are all milling around behind me. I wait till the liner draws near doing the zig-zag
bit. At the last possible moment, I come to PD, raise scope, put 2 fish into it,
drop scope and decend back to 200 feet moving directly away from the DDs.
They search and search but never came that close to me. And yes, they did
drop a few DC patterns making some mighty big holes in the water. I have done
this so many times it's getting boring. In all my testing, NO destroyer has ever
detected me below the thermal running silent. (well, Bungo Pete did but he was
the one rare DD that could) I rarely take damage unless I am testing something
and do the foolish thing like stayin on the surface during an air attack...

JIM

[donut]

Nice maneuvers,there FAdmiral :up: works for me. I must agree ,IJN visual detection is extrema! At night IJN infrared eye balls are just as extreme.This is some what of a game dampener,and a night surface attack is not possible. These sailors need Redwine's lethal radius fix for DC blast effect,it helps.

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

Well at least it makes a difference from before, when they were absolutely useless :yep:

[Seaman_Hornsby]

I must agree ,IJN visual detection is extrema! At night IJN infrared eye balls are just as extreme.This is some what of a game dampener,and a night surface attack is not possible.

Check this out:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=600453&postcount=6

It was confirmed that pre-1.3 that Japanese destroyers were using their air-search radar to detect you on the surface, thus you had charging destroyers even before you saw them. I think they're still doing this in 1.3.

[AVGWarhawk]

So, I tend to rush in where angels only go mob-handed with knuckledusters, rather than stand off and wait for the escorts to rush past.

This happens to me also. Patience X2 is needed in this game. I often want to rush in with torps blazing instead of waiting for the most opportune time to send out the fish. Hurry up and wait as it were. Sometimes I need someone standing behind me saying, "wait for it, wait for it..." This is the hardest part for me anyway.

[donut]

[quote=Seaman_Hornsby]

Check this out:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=600453&postcount=6 [quote]

Looks as though Jace11 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=214743) Has the problem pegged,wonder if [REL] S3D - Silent 3ditor (alpha) ,can be used to modify INJ.visual sensors. Thxs.,Seaman_Hornsby good find !

[kikn79]

Something I have observed occasionally, but have no proof of, is that if I am stopped with no headway at all, the DDs seem to be able to fine me better than if I am running at 1 or 2kts. I have always thought that the variable of sub speed is from 0.01 to 3kts is quiet but they forgot to code in 0.00 and the game views it as outside the "quiet" parameters and hears you.

I have noticed that the people that say they always get caught seem to say somewhere they are completely stopped. Perhaps there is something to my theory after all?

Chuck

[FAdmiral]

Being stopped at PD or somewhere below (still above thermal) running silent
should keep you from being heard vs. hydrophones but the sonar will bounce
off you and give a detection signal to the enemy. If you click on the approaching
DD, you will see 3 circles, the largest is a 360 deg. visual, the next is a circle with
the aft missing (passive hydrophones) and the 3rd is the sonar half circle in front
of the DD. This gives you an indication of basically where those sensors are for
that certain DD. But there may be other factors involved too. Crew experience,
ship speed and possible some random issues. I'd like to think that the game AI
would NOT make all those detection methods too standard. I like the random so
that you will not always know just where & when you will be detected...

JIM

[SteamWake]

Something I have observed occasionally, but have no proof of, is that if I am stopped with no headway at all, the DDs seem to be able to fine me better than if I am running at 1 or 2kts. I have always thought that the variable of sub speed is from 0.01 to 3kts is quiet but they forgot to code in 0.00 and the game views it as outside the "quiet" parameters and hears you.

I have noticed that the people that say they always get caught seem to say somewhere they are completely stopped. Perhaps there is something to my theory after all?

Chuck

It could also be a moving target adds to the ambiguity of the solution.

[NefariousKoel]

I must agree ,IJN visual detection is extrema! At night IJN infrared eye balls are just as extreme.This is some what of a game dampener,and a night surface attack is not possible.
Check this out:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=600453&postcount=6

It was confirmed that pre-1.3 that Japanese destroyers were using their air-search radar to detect you on the surface, thus you had charging destroyers even before you saw them. I think they're still doing this in 1.3.

:o

I wondered why they kept sighting me LONG before they even popped up on the horizon (always headed straight at me).

This needs to be fixed f*ckin' fast!:shifty:

[AVGWarhawk]

Interesting. The radar for the Japanese really did not come in to play until late war. Even then not all had the radar set up.

[Vorkapitan]

Question.

When being "pinged", does that mean you ARE detected or does it mean that you are NOT detected until the echo is received...? What is the interval time?

I'm assuming that when you first hear the "ping" that means you are already detected.

I just need a confirmation.

[AVGWarhawk]

Question.

When being "pinged", does that mean you ARE detected or does it mean that you are NOT detected until the echo is received...? What is the interval time?

I'm assuming that when you first hear the "ping" that means you are already detected.

I just need a confirmation.

Pings can be heard even when he is searching. So a ping does not mean he is locked on you. A sure indication he has got you pegged....he makes a run at you and ping starts to repeat faster and faster. You will hear the screw going over head.

[Vorkapitan]

Question.

When being "pinged", does that mean you ARE detected or does it mean that you are NOT detected until the echo is received...? What is the interval time?

I'm assuming that when you first hear the "ping" that means you are already detected.

I just need a confirmation.

Pings can be heard even when he is searching. So a ping does not mean he is locked on you. A sure indication he has got you pegged....he makes a run at you and ping starts to repeat faster and faster. You will hear the screw going over head.

AVGWarhawk,

Thanks..... That's exactly what I thought...It also seems that I can hear the return echo. Is that true also?

[AVGWarhawk]

The only return echo I hear is when I ping at the target I selected.

[Rockin Robbins]

Here's a repost of a couple earlier posts. They're the story of being on the receiving end of over 100 ashcans and it might be entertaining:

OK, I'm playing with destroyers again. Here's something different. I was stalking radar contacts in fog, driving rain, 10 m/sec wind, overcast and daytime. Visibility is about 450 yards, sometimes less. I'm shooting torpedoes on sonar only and just sank 2 freighters that way, six torpedoes, 5 hits, thank you WernerSobe!

Two more radar contacts running six knots north, freighters, right? So I set up ahead, 1000 yards off track and wait for my stern shots. Hehehehehehehehehehe! Watch the radar until they're a mile away. Submerge to periscope depth and acquire em on sonar. Wait for the bearing to be about 350 and it's time to start pinging. Ping. Ping. Target speeding up. Approaching fast!

Hmmmmmmm..... That's not very freighter-like conduct... Oh, @#$@#$%@!!! crash dive. At 110 ft or so hit full right rudder pull back to ahead 1/3 at 180 or so and straighen out the rudder. Ahhhhh a nice thermal layer, rig for silent running, hit the RPM at exactly 100 RPM, the quietest (that isn't exactly 1/3 throttle, by the way Ducimus) and just wait to slink away.

Three minutes later here's that high speed freight train overhead and he's dropping ashcans right on top of me. Good thing I'm at 260 and have some time. Full left, ahead emergency for a couple seconds and back to 1000 RPM. The event camera came on so he must have been pretty close. He didn't ping once.

Lets go down to 300, change course 90º, lalalalalalalalalalalala. Freight train again. Here comes the depth charges. Right on top of me and I slink out again because depth is my buddy.

This has happened four times now in a 45 minute period. From the beginning mr destroyer has not pinged once. Unless he has Superman up there using his x-ray vision, this is totally impossible. I'm in lousy sonar conditions with a great thermal layer above me, silent running trying both 100 RPM and your ahead 1/3. He follows me around like a good puppy dog.

Sorry Ducimus, that's way out of the line of possibility. Methinks the AI needs some tweaking. Even in GWX they have to ping you to find you running silent at 1 kt (although these depth charges don't seem as deadly as GWX).

Other than this event, I really have enjoyed TM. Coming from RFB I didn't really expect to, but it seems to me reality is well served here if you ignore Superman up there. Have any kryptonite?:huh:

*****************************************
Arrrrrrrrrrr! Gave em the slip. :arrgh!:Hey, next time a Zero crashes in your neighborhood, can you get me one of those Mitsubishi tachs? Oh yeah, I couldn't use it anyway because I left my metric screwdriver in Pearl. Guess I'm stuck with these Oldsmobile tachometers. I couldn't read metric RPM or whatever they use anyway. I was onboard one of those Limey subs and their tachs said "REVS." Keep me away from those things too.

OK, I'm up here on the surface taking a shower again. Radar says Superpoop is a mile away and not moving. It's mighty tempting to go see what I can do with him but I have a shade over 15,000 tons and 8 stern torps left, one in tube 1 up front. I have half a tank of diesel. "Mass tonnage" will never come up when talking about this cruise. Seems to me the uber-AI results in much more realistic tonnage per patrol. Of course you could cheat and return to Midway for refits to extend it. In R/L Admiral Lockwood would have something to say about that.

No sign of any tractor beams or phazers. The destroyers can be dealt with and survival is not that difficult for me. Of course I'm trained on GWX where there are no thermal layers and the U-Boats are slower running silent at 1 kt instead of the American Gato's 2 kt at quietest speed. I'm not going to change a thing because I'm just having too much fun. I'd say if you're getting killed too much you ought to work on your tactics.

Remember, when the destroyer is pinging, he's not listening. Pinging is your signal to hit the throttle and maneuver yourself quickly to a new hidey spot at a different depth and get back to silent running. Pinging does not mean he necessarily knows where you are, either. Inaction is fatal here. Keep twisting. Vary depths with the realization that deeper is better most of the time.

When the charges hit the water, remember his stern is now facing you. Do a radical turn and hit the throttle because you're in the clear for a bit. If he's on top of you dropping ashcans and you sit there, your patrol is over. He can't hear you, he can't ping you right now. Hit the jets and get out of there. After a short spurt, go back to silent running again.

If there are two or more destroyers you can be sure that at least one is always backed away listening. That means much shorter bursts of power reluctantly used only when survival is in the balance. Stay deep, quiet and zigzag like the drunken sailor you are in Pearl. Your goal is to put both destroyers back of bearings 135/225 and the angles progressing toward 180, showing you are leaving them safely astern.

Remember you are moving. When the bearing to the destroyer stays the same, that means you would be on a collision course if you were on the surface. In this case it means that he is either moving straight away from you or is going to pass right overhead. There's a freight train a'comin'. Try to change course to see if his bearing then begins to change, showing he will pass ahead or astern. If the bearing does not change, he's following your turn. Then you have to time the drop and run out from under it as the ashcans fall.

Ducimus, you're the expert! Anything to add? Am I making you want to get out here?:up: I can tell you one thing. RFB is gonna have to wait. This is too much fun.

*****************************************

Had two-thirds battery left and was playing pattycake with Mr Destroyer. After the tenth dry run or so, I figured he's lost his teeth, so I came up to periscope depth. It seemed like he had a harder time tracking me at periscope depth! Anybody have any info on that? So I poked up the scope to see how he conducted business.

I'm still freakin about running him clear out of ashcans, but he's still plenty dangerous. Probably on the radio with his little airplane buddies or other tin cans. Earlier in the battle, when he was running at me and I shot three in a spread he outmaneuvered the torps and just ran over me. That was bad because he wasn't out of depth charges yet.:down:

Don't want to do that again. So I waited to see how he conducted his attack. High speed approach and run over me. Lets off on the throttle after he's a hundred yards beyond me and lolligags out there. Hmmmmmm... I'll try one torpedo and see what I can do next run.

Stuck up the scope so he saw it, and just like old Ferdinand the bull he charges at 30 kt! I just lowered the scope and stayed put. Raised it after he passed. Angle on the bow 180º. Speed who cares!!! Range, mark! 400 yards. Wait one... Fire three. One up the poop chute while he's pickin his nose, eh? BOOOOOOOOOM! He lifted up and came down in two flaming pieces. How do I do this?.... @#$@##!!!! Who'da thought Google would have problems linking. Photobucket time!!!!
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/SH4Img31-7-2007_2032.25_345.jpg
The Mutsuki from hell pays the price....

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/SH4Img31-7-2007_2033.33_111.jpg

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/SH4Img31-7-2007_2033.33_111.jpg
Ah, tis better to light one candle than to curse the darkness. This Japanese destroyer was worthy of any Limey tin can in the English Channel. It was Muhammed Ali and Joe Frazier. One mistake and somebody dies. He got first shot with over 100 depth charges in dozens of deadly accurate runs with me in only 200' of water. I tried him earlier with that spread of 3 and came up empty. He almost killed me there. But he was the one that made his allotted one fatal mistake this time. Everybody's entitled to just ONE of those, you know.

I machine gunned the lifeboat. It isn't enough to destroy the boat, you must kill men who are that dangerous before they kill your friends on a future patrol. War is hell and sometimes we love it so. I'll apologize to the man upstairs when I get there, but our meeting has been posponed for now. Let me just breathe the fresh surface air and smell the smoke of victory.

"Hey Cookie, fire up that oven and get to work on our victory cake!"

"Cap, there ain't no oven on this lousy simulation. You should never buy another Ubisoft product. This damn thing ain't finished until I have an oven!"

"You should talk, Cookie, you were in the conning tower all during the attack whining about no periscope animations. Get a life, would ya? Now bake that cake. That's an order."

"Surface the boat. Course 90, speed 2/3, I'm going below. Wake me at 0500 or if we detect any aircraft."

I have to post that whole story in the stories thread but haven't had the ambition. Hope you picked up a couple pointers and enjoyed the story.

[-Pv-]

Sitting still is a nono if you are in detection/attack range of military ships. Stay on the move and keep the enemy guessing even if you are crawling on your hands and knees. You certainly cannot work the aspect angle or slip by a DC attack sitting still nor can you change depth effectively. It's important when the escort drops a DC charge where he thinks you are, you not be there any more.

Since 1.3 Battle Stations increases your noise level a bit over that of normal stations and Silent Running. I use Battle Stations when being attacked to respond to repairs more efficiently and when the enemy deffinately knows where I am and I cannot avoid making noise. I keep it off all the rest of the time.

As far as the general tone of the thread, it's obvious from all the suggestions from experienced sub simmers the game is not coded to doom you to Davie Jones. Play smart and you will beat the puter more times than not.

You might also peruse the many posts from people complaining the game is too easy and the escorts too dumb. The reality is it's somewhere in between and every player is going to have a slightly different experience. This is a clue the game has great depth and balance.

Last, if you are not having fun, turn down the game settings until you do.
-Pv-

[Rockin Robbins]

Last, if you are not having fun, turn down the game settings until you do.
-Pv-

There you go! And don't feel bad about it either. It's not as if the settings are set in stone. You can make the game more difficult as your skills get better. I'd start with manual targeting off too until boat handling becomes routine. Maybe the best way to turn the settings down would be just to make depth charges less deadly, so if they hit you they don't kill you. I don't know how to do that but someone will chime in here with instructions. After all: this is Subsim!

Then slowly increase the difficulty as you become more skilled at the game. You're not going to build any skills by being killed in five minutes by the first destroyer you see.:damn: You gotta live to learn!

So turn the settings down a bit to begin with. You'll be at full manual soon enough and in the meantime, it's just between you and me. I won't tell a soul that you're playing with anything less than full manual.:yep:

[SteamWake]

Wonder what Rockin Robbins had to say... sorry couldent read it dark blue on black :doh:

Anyhow someone asked about the time from ping to the return echo. It depends of course on the distance between the target and the source. Still though its in the span of a second or to down to fractions of seconds. Speed of sound is 600 feet per second in air ? I think its basically doubled in water. Please correct me if Im wrong.

[-Pv-]

... something about the writer shouldn't have been depth charged (he got away without being hit btw) if he's below the layer changing depth while at 100 RPM without being pinged...

So I would ask why the escort captain wouldn't lay down a pattern of charges multiple times over a general area SUSPECTED to contain an enemy sub when it was last detected?

While I emphasized the futility of sitting still when detected, it's also bad to spend too much time crawling when it's obvious the can got lucky and he's bracketing you with near misses. It's time to make like a squid and squirt your way outa there. Take advantage of the can not using sonar and go high speed for a while during the turbulent water and you are behind him. Even if he gets a wiff of your noise, he only knows a little about what direction you are relative to him, knows you have high RPMs, and can guess by the volume how far you might be, but by the time he's turned around, you are further away, have gone silent, turned, and changed depth. You may have to do this many times. He may drop a lot of DC set to multiple depths hoping to get lucky. Some will continue to land close and trigger the cam. As time goes on his misses will increase.
Obviously if you are being hogged by more than one escort, you have to be crafter than this, and with three or more, your chances of squeezing through diminish greatly. Nothing unrealistic about any of this. Play smart. Learn from your mistakes, use different tactictics and realize not every can has the same capability or skill.

Rule number 1
Be aggressive
Rule number 2
Don't get detected
Rule number 3
Once detected, use multiple tactics to get away and don't slack off thinking you're safe after the 1st DC pass just because you used your favorite pet tactic.

Once detected, remember the surface ship now has the advantage and he has to make mistakes to loose you and every mistake you make negates the ones he makes retaining his advantage.

-Pv-

[Rockin Robbins]

OK, guys. I've edited my first post to black on the quoted story so hopefully it can be read. Apparently this chat engine doesn't change colors for visibility for people with different viewing options. At least Smart Dark isn't so smart.

There is a quick and dirty workaround. Just highlight the unreadable text with your mouse. Tada!

What looks good for me looks bad with the black background. This makes the color options useless.:down: Go read it now and see what you think.