Help avoiding detection

[Theraven]

Hi, I've been playing SH4 on and off for a few months now, experimenting with different ships and years and what not. Ever since I installed the 1.3 patch I've found it impossible to attack any convoys because I ALWAYS get detected by the destroyers that are guarding the convoy. Now when I played with patch 1.2 as long as I wasn't surfaced they wouldn't see me. I even had a couple literally run into me and damage my sub because I was only about 20 feet below the surface and I was still not detected, they just kept on going. Now, under version 1.3, even if I am at periscope depth with my periscope still down even if I'm completely stopped and just sitting there they will detect me and I'll either die or barely make it out of there with my sub intact. At first I thought maybe it was because they heard me approaching even when I was pretty far out but today I was sitting in the spot I wanted to be in for a good 10 hours completely stopped waiting on the convoy to come and they still detected me and came after me. I was at periscope depth with the periscope down, completely stopped and it was at night.

It's really quite frustrating since I basically have to completely avoid convoys now. Am I doing something wrong? Or maybe this is just a bug with 1.3? Is there any way to fix it? Any advice you guys can offer is appreciated.

[Ducimus]

http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/ai.htm

[Theraven]

Hmm, that info was quite helpful, thanks Ducimus. I think part of my problem is since installing version 1.3 I've been playing a career starting late in the war so detection is easier than it was in my original careers when I started at the beginning of the war. It does leave me with a couple more questions though. In regards to the strategy of attacking a convoy, what's the best way to get in there, shoot a couple merchants and get out alive? I mean, from what I understand (based on the link you posted) I could sit below the thermal layer and then wait for the Destroyer in the front of the convoy to pass above me without being detected. Then, when I surface (well, to periscope depth) I'll be slightly in front of but mostly to the side of the Destroyers that escort the convoy on the left and right side. Will they still be able to detect me if I'm say... 2000 yards out but directly to their side at periscope depth? Or will they be able to hear me surfacing if they were listening rather than pinging? Basically it sounds like convoys late in the war are going to be more trouble than they're worth, but I just hate giving up on them.

[Frederf]

All stop, 380', silent running on. The DD still runs over me and finds me with TM1.5. Deep, quiet, and silent aren't enough to keep you from detection. I'm wondering if (stupidly) my broadside turned toward the convoy (in prep for a perpendicular attack) is giving me away. If I was deep, stopped, and parallel with the convoy if they wouldn't find the USS Needle in the Haystack Straights.

[DavidH]

i now avoid anything with the super destroyers around they, are a pain.

means less tonnage but you survive on single or double merchants,

& always save before any encounters



DavidH

[AVGWarhawk]

I basically come at them like this:

Imagine a clock if you would. Lead escort is at the 12 o'clock. The side escort are at 9 and 3 o'clock and the rear escort is at 6 o'clock. Roughly the lead is searching ahead of the convoy. The two side DD are looking off to the side and the rear escort searching the rear and sometimes ahead. What I do is position my heading to come in either at the 10 o'clock position or the 2 o'clock position. These seem to be the blind spots. I also go in below the thermal layer and once the lead escort has passed, I move to periscope depth and prepare the torps for firing. Once you get past that lead escort, you are pretty much good to go. Remember though, only use the scope sparingly. Leaving it up to enjoy the view is not good. I concentrate on 2 to 3 ships only. I'm certainly not going to sink them all in once shot. What I do like currently is the mix of DD and how effective they are. Some convoys are just going to be tough as all heck. Others will be the turkey shoot. Try what I do and see if that works for you.

[Ducimus]

All stop, 380', silent running on. The DD still runs over me and finds me with TM1.5. Deep, quiet, and silent aren't enough to keep you from detection. I'm wondering if (stupidly) my broadside turned toward the convoy (in prep for a perpendicular attack) is giving me away. If I was deep, stopped, and parallel with the convoy if they wouldn't find the USS Needle in the Haystack Straights.


:yep:

http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/convoy_attack_wrong.jpg
Don't do this. As tempting as it might be to try and get inside a convoy.


http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/convoy_attack_1.jpg
Stand off to the side, and away from the lead escorts path. Your aspect will get you detected every time. But you also can't stay where your at, because the side guarding escort will detect you as well. Solution is to wait tell the lead escort is just about to pass you, and start to move in

http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/convoy_attack_2.jpg
Like so.... Also notice the angle. A straight 90 shot on a convoy is acutally a bad thing to do, because its near impossible to time your shots, on top of that, you'll have overlapping targets if you come in at a slight angle to the convoy. In this scenario, youve just skipped the lead escort, and the side guarding one will pass astern of you. Shoot your fish.


This isnt a hard solution for every encounter. Sometimes you'll have to get creative. if theres ALOT of escorts, you'll have to approach the convoy bows on to keep your aspect low, and then pull a hard turn when your past the escort screen and on the firing position to bring your tubes to bear. The fly in the ointment in that scenario, is you'll make alot of noise to bring your tubes to bear in time because your window of opportunity to fire is very narrow.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Welcome to SUBSIM:up: Theraven


RDP

[AVGWarhawk]

Ahh Ducimus put my clock into pictures and nice ones as well:D:up:

[Snuffy]

I avoid the DD problem by taking them out first ... usually only spend 1 torp per DD.
(Of course I have yet to install TM 1.X or patch 1.3) I'm running "vanilla 1.2")

[LukeFF]

I avoid the DD problem by taking them out first ... usually only spend 1 torp per DD.

Which is a waste of time and torpedoes, not to mention the fact you've now alerted the rest of the convoy to your presence.

[banjo]

No, it's not necessarily a waste of time/torpedoes. Using TM 1.4 I have on several occasions sunk all the escorts (4 or 5) and then roared around submerged and got all the merchies. Usually end up taking the last couple surfaced. There are lots of options in this game.... Assess each situation seperately.

[Snuffy]

Which is a waste of time and torpedoes, not to mention the fact you've now alerted the rest of the convoy to your presence.

Nah, Luke I don't see it that way.
If I take out the probability of being attacked by sinking or seriously damaging the attacker first, then that's one less I have to worry about. And besides, every ounce that hits the bottom of the ocean just adds to the total overall score eventually.

As far as alerting the convoy, note my setup ... still runnin 1.2 patch plain vanilla, most of the convoy comes to a screeching halt or a snails pace after the initial attack.

But yer entitled to yer opinion. Thanks for sharing!

[Ducimus]

I feel like i failed at something.

[theluckyone17]

Ducimus, if you've failed at something, it wasn't for lack of effort.

If you're talking about anything related to SH, at least. Grocery shopping, on the other hand... well, you could be a failure at that. Never seen you shop. :D

[FAdmiral]

Which is a waste of time and torpedoes, not to mention the fact you've now alerted the rest of the convoy to your presence.

As far as alerting the convoy, note my setup ... still runnin 1.2 patch plain vanilla, most of the convoy comes to a screeching halt or a snails pace after the initial attack.

But yer entitled to yer opinion. Thanks for sharing!

They came to a halt cause a bug told them to do that just so you could have a
turkey shoot. Load 1.3 and see how easy that is now. With 1.3, they take off
in different directions zigging and zagging. Also the escorts dont stop and let
you shoot them either...

JIM

[WolfgangU421]

Just to add my twopenneth.
I remember in SHII when it first came out the same problem occurred then. It was impossible to get anywhere near a convoy without the DD's latching on to you. When playing SHIV I've noticed on numerous occassions this same problem occurring. From all the books I have read if a sub is on the surface at night with no moon it is very difficult to detect until it makes it's attack.
Eventually the dev boys for SHII brought out a patch which gave more realism to the actual conditions regarding detection.
Peter

[Frederf]

A straight 90 shot on a convoy is acutally a bad thing to do, because its near impossible to time your shots, on top of that, you'll have overlapping targets if you come in at a slight angle to the convoy. In this scenario, youve just skipped the lead escort, and the side guarding one will pass astern of you. Shoot your fish.

This isnt a hard solution for every encounter. Sometimes you'll have to get creative. if theres ALOT of escorts, you'll have to approach the convoy bows on to keep your aspect low, and then pull a hard turn when your past the escort screen and on the firing position to bring your tubes to bear. The fly in the ointment in that scenario, is you'll make alot of noise to bring your tubes to bear in time because your window of opportunity to fire is very narrow.
I will disagree about the 90 degreen thing being a 'hard shot' as it provides the largest angular target possible and the shortest torpedo run distance and the greatest percision of knowing where the target is angularly. The chance for hitting over targets in the case of a miss I don't know either way.

My complaint is that aspect should have DIDDLY to do with getting detected by passive hydrophones. Why would the broadside of a sub sound any different than the front? I understand the difference in aspect when active sonar is concerned, but active sonar is not being used to detect me.

I am also incredulous on if a DD would realistically be able to detect a subarmine that was dark as shadow no matter how close overhead it got, especially while running at 9 kts.

The 2 oclock entry is of course very good advice, less attainable when attacking a 21 kt task force of course because of the increase in the number of DDs and the higher reletive speed.

[Ducimus]

I will disagree about the 90 degreen thing being a 'hard shot'

Your not thinking advanced enough. It is a hard shot on the 2nd or 3rd salvo if you intent to shoot one, and time them so they all hit approximatly the same time. First salvo should always be at slow speed setting. Your 2nd salvo at fast speed. Usually you have about 30 seconds to set up your 2nd salvo after letting loose the first. Timing is important, you want them hitting all around the same time. If theres a large time gap on the 2nd salvo end of run, your target will have shifted position, having been warned by the first salvo, and the shots are wasted.

My complaint is that aspect should have DIDDLY to do with getting detected by passive hydrophones.

Aspect doesnt have a thing to do with passive detection. I don't know where you get this idea. You sound like the same guy from the official forums, and i said the same thign there, aspect on passive hydrophones does not get you detected. What you seem to have trouble accepting is how the game functions mechanically. If you think you can do better then the guys who made SH3 and SH4, please, by all means, apply for a job at ubisoft and deliver us a sim that performs historically accurate in code, as opposed to being accurate in appearance to the user.

At any rate, you can beleive what you want, ive said time and time again how to avoid detection and how to attack convoys. Instead all i hear is.. "but .. but... but.. but... ", and a whole lot of whining. This is how the game is, you either have the aptitude to learn it, or you do not. Whining about it, and complaning about how doubutful you are about the game based on your own assumptions, isn't going to change a damn thing.

[Frederf]

I detect a rather large chipoid in the vicinity of your shoulder region.

You're correct I'm not thinking that advanced about my attacks in terms of two sync'd ToT salvos and it actually sounds like a fun thing to try. Although ships weighing what they do and my inability to shift fires rapidly (mainly due to visual lag) means I haven't found an overwhelming justification for such a practice. I'm curious what kind of angle reletive to abeam you mean. 10 deg? 30deg? 50deg? Do you come to PD on these runs or not? I've tried a few 99' deep attacks and they work alright except I rarely know just when to take that first (and often only) ping before launch for last chance range data.

My notion that aspect has anything to do with passive sonar detection is strictly based off of experiencial data. I sit at 380' with SR and 0 kts with my beam to the enemy... I'm detected. I load up the same save game and turn so I'm parallel with the convoy... not detected. I understand that isn't conclusive (not like going through the sensor game files like you have) but you can see why I arrived at my notion. All I have is the knowlege I gain and my brain to sort through it, no more no less.

I'm so phobic of any engine usage with DDs around because since I can hear a merchant 20nm away surely they can hear me 1nm away no matter what.

Now I'm curious how this "2 oclock" approach really works. I've used it in SH3 (namely the MP missions since you're kinda pressed for time) a lot. Attacking a 9 kt target at 2 kts only gives you a 2/9*60 = 13 degree entry window from straight ahead. And that assumes you're using all of those 2 kts exactly perpendicular to the convoy's path.

With TM1.5 my convoy skills have gotten extremely rusty as I generally only find:

1. 2 merchie buddies
2. sampans
3. task forces (which I have no idea how to attack safely which I guess is the point)

[amurph182]

My notion that aspect has anything to do with passive sonar detection is strictly based off of experiencial data. I sit at 380' with SR and 0 kts with my beam to the enemy... I'm detected. I load up the same save game and turn so I'm parallel with the convoy... not detected. I understand that isn't conclusive (not like going through the sensor game files like you have) but you can see why I arrived at my notion. All I have is the knowlege I gain and my brain to sort through it, no more no less.


I've just learned how this works myself so I could be wrong, but I think you're mistaken about the detection method.

You aren't being detected passively.

The way the GAME works, if I understand correctly, is that if you present the escort with a good target for its ACTIVE sensors then it will choose to use those sensors to detect you. In real life, unless an escort was just steaming along pinging away randomly, it would be using passive sensors such as hydrophones and lookouts to look for submarines or evidence of submarines. Upon either hearing or seeing something, (such as hearing the sub or seeing a torpedo wake or periscope, etc) it would switch to active and THEN, if you were within the sonar cone and presenting the right angle, it would detect you.

But in the game, if you just happen to be in the sonar cone and presenting a favorable angle for detection and stay there for however long then the escort will magically know to use its active sensors and find you. In other words, if you would have been detected by active sonar if the escort was using it, then the game decides that that is a great moment to use it.

You aren't being detected passively and then attacked. You're being detected actively because you are in a position that meets the game's criteria for active detection, which causes the AI to magically activate it's sonar find you.

To avoid this, you simply do not position your boat in a way that IF the AI were to be using active sonar it would detect you. That way the AI never says to itself "hey, there's a boat there that I can't hear but if I start pinging I'll get him right away." You can still be detected passively by making too much noise.

[theluckyone17]

I sit at 380' with SR and 0 kts with my beam to the enemy... I'm detected. I load up the same save game and turn so I'm parallel with the convoy... not detected.
It was my understanding (due to reading a few other threads) that SH4 isn't programmed as you might think with regards to enemy AI and active/passive sonar. In my head, if I was setting SH4 up, I'd have the escorts concentrate on passive sonar, all the time... and use active sonar if/when they suspect that a sub is in a given area. Use active to pinpoint, etc.

Somebody in one of those other threads suggested that the above design is not what SH4 does... if you're within the cone of active sonar, at the right aspect, then the escort pings. Regardless of whether we think the escort should be pinging at that particular moment or not.

At that point, since you're in the cone and with your beam to the enemy, he's able to locate you. Rotate off the beam, and he can't... 'cause the game is saying he can't find you if he did ping.

That's a better way to phrase SH4's method, actually... if your sub is in such a position that if the escort could locate you via ping, then he will. If not, then the escort has to rely on the passive to locate you.

This is probably all complicated by the skill of the escort, too... I've had escorts that have detected me in almost unbelievable situations :shifty:, and others that should've pounced on me like a cat on a mouse, but continued by, oblivious. :doh:

Somebody feel free to tell me I'm wrong, 'cause I'd love to hear it... I'm tired of mentally picturing sonar ranges & aspects in my head on convoy approaches, wondering whether I'm going to blunder in someone's active sonar cone. :huh:

Edit: amurph182, you type too quickly for me ;)

[Snuffy]

They came to a halt cause a bug told them to do that just so you could have a turkey shoot. Load 1.3 and see how easy that is now. With 1.3, they take off in different directions zigging and zagging. Also the escorts dont stop and let you shoot them either...

JIM

Well when I finish this career and to the reinstall with the 1.3 patch and the latest edition of TM then I look forward to the challenge.

It should not be much longer, it's the Middle of Feb 1945 right now in my current running career.

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

My notion that aspect has anything to do with passive sonar detection is strictly based off of experiencial data. I sit at 380' with SR and 0 kts with my beam to the enemy... I'm detected. I load up the same save game and turn so I'm parallel with the convoy... not detected. I understand that isn't conclusive (not like going through the sensor game files like you have) but you can see why I arrived at my notion. All I have is the knowlege I gain and my brain to sort through it, no more no less.

I've just learned how this works myself so I could be wrong, but I think you're mistaken about the detection method.

You aren't being detected passively.

The way the GAME works, if I understand correctly, is that if you present the escort with a good target for its ACTIVE sensors then it will choose to use those sensors to detect you. In real life, unless an escort was just steaming along pinging away randomly, it would be using passive sensors such as hydrophones and lookouts to look for submarines or evidence of submarines. Upon either hearing or seeing something, (such as hearing the sub or seeing a torpedo wake or periscope, etc) it would switch to active and THEN, if you were within the sonar cone and presenting the right angle, it would detect you.

But in the game, if you just happen to be in the sonar cone and presenting a favorable angle for detection and stay there for however long then the escort will magically know to use its active sensors and find you. In other words, if you would have been detected by active sonar if the escort was using it, then the game decides that that is a great moment to use it.

You aren't being detected passively and then attacked. You're being detected actively because you are in a position that meets the game's criteria for active detection, which causes the AI to magically activate it's sonar find you.

To avoid this, you simply do not position your boat in a way that IF the AI were to be using active sonar it would detect you. That way the AI never says to itself "hey, there's a boat there that I can't hear but if I start pinging I'll get him right away." You can still be detected passively by making too much noise.

That explains a lot of absolutely ridiculous detections.

[amurph182]

That explains a lot of absolutely ridiculous detections.

indeed. And the thing of it is that it doesn't seem to make sense for doing it that way. As Ducimus points out, an AI DD can only use one sensor at a time which would make it pretty easy to say "use passive unless you have a contact, then use active". What I keep coming up with is that the devs thought it too easy to evade passive detection, or perhaps the DD's don't use active correctly after making a passive detection.

Another thought I had is that the game doesn't actually model active sonar but instead just throws some dice against certain numbers, such as aspect angle, sonar cone dimensions, etc, to determine if you are detected or not and it doesn't matter which system they are using at the time. But I am neither a programmer nor an experienced modder of this game so I'm just talking out my butt on that one.

[Ducimus]

The implentation of how active sonar works, i beleive was always done in the way it was done, to make up for short comings.

As i understand, real sonar, projects itself as narrow 15degree flashlight beam, sweeping from side to side. Sonar in these games does not do that. It does not sweep from side to side, it is afixed onto the front end of the escort like a floodlight.

Now i've seen efforts to make the beams geometry more realistic (IE reduce the beam to 15 degrees wide) and what happends is the AI can't detect anything. So i think what happened when the game was designed, was the need to enlarge the sonar beam, and then add variables to it that say, "yea, or nay" on being detected. In code, while it doesnt work like a real sonar, but i'd argue that in play, the effects on player behavior to avoid detection (or escape after having been detected) are nearly the same. In short, it doesnt recreate sonar, it emulates it. If it wasn't for some joker like me who's spent the last 3 years observing, analyzing, and tweaking the AI' sensors, i honestly don't think people would know any better.



I detect a rather large chipoid in the vicinity of your shoulder region.


Late night, and tinnitus occasionaly kicking my ass, makes for being really damn cranky.

[AVGWarhawk]

As i understand, real sonar, projects itself as narrow 15degree flashlight beam, sweeping from side to side. Sonar in these games does not do that. It does not sweep from side to side, it is afixed onto the front end of the escort like a floodlight.

Do you thing the amount of zig zagging the DD do cover that missing aspect of actually sweeping? Just wondering.

[Frederf]

Firstly, the given explanation of "DDs decide to ping if you happen to be there" satisfies both my experience while playing and Ducimus's knowlege of the game sensor files. It's sort of a "I told you so" and sort of not. I find it unfortunate when stealth options are lacking like this... if in fact this is the case.

The only test I could think of is modding a sub with exactly 0 sound signature and placing him in front of a DD and watching if the DD spots him simply due to how strong his sonar ping return would be if the DD happened to ping, with no other manner of detection possible. A SR sub could never be 100% silent with some vibration or sound being emmitted. Perhaps there is a minimum sound signature of the sub modelled in the game, perhaps the hydrophones on the DD can detect impossibly faint sound signatures (unrealistically so). Don't know. That would deserve yet another test, trying to get detected by a DD that did not have active sonar installed.

I don't understand exactly why 15deg window spotlight sonar wouldn't work modelled on DDs. If you have a -- contact on the hydrophones and you hit the "ping" button you instantly get a contact report "Merchant, closing, bearing xxx, long range!" This is basically narrow beam detection of a sweeping device. It would make it take longer for a DD to get an initial fix on you "Is here over there, nope, there, nope" by a few seconds or even minutes. Also shaking a DD would be easier as he'd have to ping your bearing to find you and being 90 degrees off would mean he'd have to search a bit. I won't argue with the experiences of those trying to tweak the AI sensors that this is hard/impossible to get working, but just pontificating for no real reason. Like the Beach Boys song, wouldn't it be nice.

Late night, and tinnitus occasionaly kicking my ass, makes for being really damn cranky.

You forget, I'm the most irritating person on the planet. :lol: No problem whatsoever.

[Ducimus]

I have to be honest, these discussions sort of wear me out. I think im going to stop participating in them, and just let people think what they want. You know, I didn't build the thing, i just have a pretty good idea on how it works. What frustrates me is when i say exactly how to not get detected, and yet people keep saying things like "its impossible"! Each time i thnk to myself, "BS".

I can approach almost any convoy, get a shot off, and not be detected. Infact, very rarely am i detected before my torepdos hit. Even with a destroyer coming straight at me, i know how to position myself so my chances of being detected are appreciably low. So i have a very hard time understanding why others find the AI so insurmountable.


Do you thing the amount of zig zagging the DD do cover that missing aspect of actually sweeping? Just wondering.

One could try, but im skeptical. I have a nagging that with all things considered, at best they'd be able to intially detect you, and the rest of the time you won't hear a single ping. I think they'd just mill about until the lost contact time has expired and go away.

[GT182]

Ducimus is right. Besides he learnt these lessons the hard way from SH3 and has appiled it to SH4.

And TM 1.4 is the advanced version of hide and seek. ;) Along with the other included parts to TM 1.4. It's not just eyecandy you know.

Never ever give your enemy your broadside... meet him headon and as slow as you can, or stopped. And always make sure Silent Running is the norm when meeting up with them. And only use your 'scope when you need to. The enemy wears glasses and can see your 'scope just fine when the bloody thing is sticking out of the water... it's a dam calling card saying "Here I am, come get me !"

[kikn79]

As i understand, real sonar, projects itself as narrow 15degree flashlight beam, sweeping from side to side.

Like it showed in SH1? :doh:

I still think that all stop is outside of the "range" of the programming quiet running. If they said that 0.01 - 2kts is quiet and anything outside of that range is noisy. I have slipped in front of destroyers @ 80 feet 90deg and not been detected as long as I was moving. Compare that to the one time I was 250ft deep completely stopped and totally bows on to the destroyer (in version 1.2, no less) and I was detected. I have yet to be detected by any destroyer (other than Bungo Pete who apparently has a crystal ball or telepathy with fish) while running 1-2kts. Especially if I'm under the thermal layer. I find them very easy to evade and I usually am able to withdraw, reload and make an end around for multiple tries at the convoy. I never take out a destroyer, unless he happens to get in my way, or he has irritated me in some fashion.

I would adhere to the tactics put forth by Ducimus. He is the resident expert on AI and sensor technology.

Chuck

[Rockin Robbins]

It is possible to ignore his advice, and if you are foolish even contradict it. It is also possible to die a lot. Playing SH3 the way you wish it would work will result in a result you wish you had not experienced.

I'm playing around in the Yellow Sea right now. At no time in the past 3 hour battle have I had more than 100' of water under me. Most of the time it's been in the 80's. Wind 15 m/s, fog, rain, choppy waves make periscope work very interesting.

I ran into a convoy of 5 freighters and a DD. DD was in front. My friend the radar let me position myself ahead and 800 yards off the track, where I sat at radar depth with engines stopped, repair party disengaged, silent running. When radar showed they were 800 yards away and I couldn't see anything I went to periscope depth. Then I saw the DD. Hi there! Nothing here but a hole in the water. I heard that somewhere.

Here comes the first merchant. It goes by and I don't see it at all. No shot. (insert favorite profane comment here. Go ahead. You'll feel better.) That's Ok, there's more.

Creep up on the track to 500 yards, watching the sonar bearing. Not even a shadow! WernerSobe, you finally got your sticky, let's try out your sonar targeting again. I had the heading and speed from radar data. Did you know you don't have to know AOB if you know the heading? Takes a little trial and terror, but you can set the heading on the TDC. Werner shows you how. It's time to ping some bearings and ranges! Ping. Pong. Click Click.....Ping, Pong. Click Click. One more. Ping. Pong. Click Click. Open torpedo tubes one and two. Fire one! Set spread 1½º left. Fire two! Wait, Wait, BOOM!!!! BOOM!!! Check the map. OH, @#$@#%@$@#!!!!! What's that sonar vector? Swing the periscope around to get a nice portrait view of the biggest, fastest Jap DD I've ever seen!

Down periscope! Hard left! Ahead emergency! Mr. DD slid behind me and killed a school of fish. I left ahead emergency on for five seconds and pulled back to a setting of two knots. I know that is definitely below 100 RPM, so it's darn quiet. Stayed at periscope depth, heck, there's no water under me anyway. I guess my pinging was like a dinner bell calling in the destroyer. Up scope and look around. Because of the rain, wind and chop, the DD has no clue where I am, even though he just about scraped my paint off in his death run of the fishies. Left the scope up to watch between the wave peaks. He doesn't see the scope. I'm leaving it up for about 15 seconds at a time, so I'm not being very careful with it.

Mr. DD ran circles slowly all around me at about 300 to 400 yards (meaning a shot would have been stupid. I'd just be writing an arrow on the water pointing straight to me. Every once in awhile he makes a blind run and drops charges right in front of me as I observe the whole run through the scope! I've read about this in real life but never expected to experience it in Silent Hunter 4. (Forrest Somebodyorother in "Wake of the Wahoo" writing about Mush Morton) He has no clue, so it's time to look around.

OH (fill in the blank)!!!!! A shape charges out of the fog at AOB zero. Another destroyer! Too close to do anything! Hope he doesn't know I'm here. I lower the scope and he passes directly overhead. Up scope. Hey, that thing is too fat for a DD. It's a nice Medium European Composite. AOB 180º, speed nothing special, bearing mark. Fire three! Forgot to open the tube door but the delay doesn't matter. BOOM! I've picked the DD's nose for another victim! I cozied up to the inert stricken freighter for companionship and waited for another victim, while watching the clueless DD, who wasn't about to give up. This is no time to make a mistake. I picked up a second victim emerging from the fog, prompting some poking around my position by the DD. I was nuzzled up close to my buddy the burning freighter. DD never saw me.

Over the next two hours I finished sinking all five of the DD's little chicks, receiving credit for four of them. I must have been too far from the fifth. The sunk icon was on the map, but was gray instead of the normal color. I never went deeper than periscope depth. It wouldn't have made sense to give up the ability to see for the protection of less than 80' of water. Often I just waited until Mr DD was out of sight, surfaced and jetted to a new position to settle down and pick off my next victim. He can't find you on sonar if you're on the surface!:arrgh!: After I sank all the freighters I just left the DD and continued my orbit of the star in the Yellow Sea so I can get credit for patrolling there.

I'm using Trigger Maru 1.5 with Natural Sinking Mechanics 3.0 classic (what a mod!). I back up Ducimus 100% when he says you can learn to deal with the DD's. Pick your circumstances, use sound strategy and believe his words on how the AI works. You'll be successful.

[theluckyone17]

How would you have adjusted your tactics if that DD had spotted your 'scope?

Oh, and I don't want to hear "I'm hosed" :cool:

[Rockin Robbins]

There are three positions you can be in when the DD spots your scope and all three mean something different.

First, the DD can see your scope from a parallel course, either at his bearing 90º or 270º. In this case or close to it, he can't immediately turn into you. Urgent action isn't necessary except dodging the gunfire that's surely coming your way. You need to get the scope down quick anyway. OK, so he's either passed ahead or passed behind. Now what's pointing at you? Yup, the hind end of his boat. You can't see it but you know it's there. And it means he can't ping you, he can't hear you. Hit the gas! Turn right or left trying to turn the opposite direction he does to put max distance between you. If you guess wrong you'll cramp his next maneuver, so all is not lost. So hit the gas, turn 90º right or left, keep full power on until he turns 90º behind you and go to silent running, 2 knots, repair crew manually turned off, secure from general quarters, scope down!

Second, the DD spots you when you're behind him. 2 choices here and you can choose both if you want. First, he's AOB 180, his speed cancels out, all you need is his heading, hey that's the same as yours! Fire one setting shallow, fast speed and you'll have a great chance to take him out. Second, you're looking at his finest end. Lower the scope, make the turn of your choice and do a high speed jet out of there. Remember to go to strict silent running after a short burst.

The third, and most dangerous (you just read that is what I did last!) is the one that promotes good cardiovascular health by raising your heartbeat to supersonic levels. He's straight ahead of you, coming at you, AOB zero! Prayer would be a good idea right now, but you'd best be evading during the prayer. If you have depth to work with like I didn't earlier this afternoon, immediately pull the scope down and simultaneously do a crash dive. As soon as you see six or seven knots (pretty darn quick) turn 45º left or right. You're trying to get enough depth that you can turn out from under the depth charges as they fall. It's gonna be close. But you should be OK. Soon as they start blowing up the entire universe you know that since you can hear them you survived:p. Get a little distance, look for a hidey spot (if sonar conditions are bad I love periscope depth to retain the initiative) and go to strict silent running while you change pants. Don't flush while on silent running.

That's about it. The important thing seems to be to think out what you are going to do beforehand. There is no time to consult the tea leaves in combat. Reaction must be instinctive. You're going to do a lot of stuff and not know why. Listen to your inner voice. He wants to survive real bad.

Last rule: when you make a mistake, if you survive then learn from it.

Edit: Other than that, you're hosed. :arrgh!: