This game is scripted...

[HMCS]

Playing Grey Wolves mod w/ SHC.

Ok, barring any long shot or questionable moves on my part...

I admit, I save and replay fairly often, and the conclusion I have come to is, that the game sets up the results of the battles before you even get to shoot.

I have played this game for YEARS. Two really annoying things have become apparent.

First of all, surface attacks at night are invariably ineffective. The escorts ARE ALWAYS in position to intercept. Even on dark nights with weather on my side, I have yet to get in a surface shot under 3K. yds. Later in the war, they become pretty much impossible to pull off. Not realistic, considering that the Battle of The Atlantic was a "near-run thing" until May of '43. Most U-Boat attacks were carried out on the surface.

I have a saved game where I have penetrated a convoy and line up a near-perfect shot on 3 T3's. In 8 replays, the results were: hit 4 ships, sank 0: 3 times. Hit 3 ships, sank 1: 3 Times. Hit 3 ships, sank 0: 2 times. In each case, despite hitting the ships near/at the engine room sections of the ship, each T3 was able to shrug off each hit (pretty neat trick, considering their cargo) and kick their speed up to 12 kts.

Random? Not nearly. Realistic? In the words of Tony Soprano, fuhgetaboutit.

Which is what I am going to do with this game. Uninstall and fuhgetaboutit.

[Iron Budokan]

LOL! SH3 scripted? That's the funniest thing I've read this month. Yes, you can get in closer to convoys early in the war...IF you know what you're doing. And here's another shocker: the escorts are SUPPOSED to be in a position to intercept. That's why they're escorts. Where do you want them, back in Dover? :rotfl:

Get real. If you've really been playing this game for years and have yet to get within 3k meters of a convoy, even in the early stages of the war, then it's YOU and not the game.

[ReM]

Surface attack at night: move in with decks awash (about 7,5 mtrs deep) and you can get REAL close without being detected....you have to time your approach a little in order to avoid the escorts though...

I even managed to get inside the convoy without being detected a few times...

Give it a try.....

About the sinkings:

I agree that the torps should be a tad more powerful....it takes too much torpedoes for a kill; but you can always get off a shot aimed for the bow which is very effective....going for engineroom or funnel hits used to work wonders in stock SHIII, not so in GWX.

[Penelope_Grey]

Surface attacks are not impossible at all, they are very possible right into 1942 they can still be done. Its all about positioning, and yes even in early war when the escorts were not that great but were still good enough to find and drive away an attacking U-Boat. The job of the escorts was to drive U-boats away and if possible, destroy them. Their primary goal is to protect the convoy.

Escorts sweep the area around the convoy so that you cannot get in close When U-boats get close there is more chance their torpedo will hit, getting past an escort requires a degree of cunning, sometimes you may have to submerge to PD and let him go by, sometimes you may just have to pull back and return again in 20 minutes or so till the escort has gone his way. The main thing ya need.... patience.... and another useful thing; persistence.

Some good tips are to put the boat low in the water, 7m is a bit too low in my view as it slows you down too much so I go with about 6m. This is a must in type IX's due to their long crash dives.

So you have to sneak, make sure the escorts can't see your broadside and the key thing, slow and steady. Doing a Das Boot, charging in at ahead flank only works if there are no escorts there to see your attack. The steadier you go the better, as you are not creating the same kind of wake that you would make at flank. Also, before you start the attack figure out what you are going to shoot at before hand, and try to make all the torpedoes hit around the same time.

The real remarkable thing... you may actually be able to escape on the surface too! If you can turn round and run like hell at flank you could well get away with it and not have to suffer a single depthcharge! Cool huh? This principle is the case for all versions of the game be it base game, GWX, WAC etc...

You say you are playing The Grey Wolves mod, you mean the first one, or the second incarnation - GWX?

[SmokinTep]

Bye Bye..............

[TarJak]

The main thing ya need.... patience.... and another useful thing; persistence.I agree wholeheatedly Pen!

Penelope missed mentioning only one of the 3 P's; Planning! Thought she did describe doing it. Work out how you will approach, what you will shoot at and how you will get away BEFORE trying to get close. Once you have a method that works keep using it.

As you can see from the responses it can be done with some personal application. You think that this is not a realistic game? I suggest you do some research and reading on the subject. It was not easy for an RL Kaluen to sneak up to a convoy and just shoot and kill.

Wishing that this game was easier, I would say it is not realistic. I don't think I've seen a less scripted game. Even running the same situation after saving several times I have observed very different behaviours by the escorts and convoys particularly when they are aware of your presence. After nearly 3 years of playing I'm constantly surprised by the new things I see am still blown away by the complexity and detail that is in it.

[JScones]

Penelope missed mentioning only one of the 3 P's; Planning!
<shudders> This comment brought back memories of my Army days and the "7 P's" - "Prior Preparation and Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance".

Still follow that mantra through to this very day.

And it's just as relevant in SH3. ;)

[Puster Bill]

I get a laugh when people complain about tankers not sinking.

Tankers are compartmented vessels that are either full of air when empty, and thus have a great deal of reserve bouyancy, or they are full of liquid that is lighter than water, and thus have a great deal of reserve bouyancy.

In real life, tankers were harder to sink than cargo vessels, because of the compartmentalization inherent in a vessel designed to ship liquids.

[TarJak]

Penelope missed mentioning only one of the 3 P's; Planning! <shudders> This comment brought back memories of my Army days and the "7 P's" - "Prior Preparation and Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance".

Still follow that mantra through to this very day.

And it's just as relevant in SH3. ;)

Can't get by without it. In RL or simulation.

[The Munster]

Penelope missed mentioning only one of the 3 P's; Planning!
<shudders> This comment brought back memories of my Army days and the "7 P's" - "Prior Preparation and Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance".

Still follow that mantra through to this very day.

And it's just as relevant in SH3. ;)

..brought back memories of School days, the 4 S 's we were not allowed to do
Spitting, Swearing, Shouting and Singing .. the good old days.

[nikbear]

I get a laugh when people complain about tankers not sinking.

Tankers are compartmented vessels that are either full of air when empty, and thus have a great deal of reserve bouyancy, or they are full of liquid that is lighter than water, and thus have a great deal of reserve bouyancy.

In real life, tankers were harder to sink than cargo vessels, because of the compartmentalization inherent in a vessel designed to ship liquids.

While I agree with you there,There are exceptions,Yes I'm looking at you passenger/cargo:nope: that really needs looking at;)

[Penelope_Grey]

Well I suppose if you shout loud enough somebody will listen to you over issues like that. :rotfl:

[IrischKapitan]

I get a laugh when people complain about tankers not sinking.

Tankers are compartmented vessels that are either full of air when empty, and thus have a great deal of reserve bouyancy, or they are full of liquid that is lighter than water, and thus have a great deal of reserve bouyancy.

In real life, tankers were harder to sink than cargo vessels, because of the compartmentalization inherent in a vessel designed to ship liquids.
While I agree with you there,There are exceptions,Yes I'm looking at you passenger/cargo:nope: that really needs looking at;)


Yes and your also forgetting, that tankers carried anything from crude oil to petrol to normal water (yes water!! how do you think troops survived in Africa without their daily ration of water!)

[nikbear]

Well I suppose if you shout loud enough somebody will listen to you over issues like that. :rotfl:

I do hope so Pen,I hate those things with a passion,as an experiment I thought I'd see how much punishment one could take and still stay afloat,three,yes 3 torps and at least 20 105mm shells and the bloody thing still made 4 knots without a single superstructure left on the boat!:damn: even when it did grind to a halt it didn't sink for ages,it just sat in the water bobing along like a cork in a pond:nope: truly awful.

[Puster Bill]

it just sat in the water bobing along like a cork in a pond:nope: truly awful.

Maybe that was the cargo: Cork.

Yeah, liquid cork.

[Brag]

Passenger/cargoes eat torpedoes to make them strong :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[GoldenRivet]

I have taken out many passenger/cargo ships with one fish.... it just takes them several hours to sink!

and T3 tankers - piece of cake- i suppose you "LOCK" on to a target and have the weapons officer plot the shot? if thats the case dont be surprised at your results... your going to take out the engine... big deal ... so you just stopped a tanker. the object is to SINK her. try plotting a shot so that it hits the bow just ahead of the bridge and another to hit astern somewhere so that you create flooding in multiple compartments (SH3 DOES simulate that). Bow shots KILL ships - period.

On surface attacks: Other players and I myself have also conducted surface attacks INSIDE the lanes of a convoy on many many many occasions and successfully launched an attack against the merchants with little or no retaliation in the early years. (keep in mind surface attacks are pretty much suicide after 43 unless you are going up against a single merchant)

deepest apologies BUT if you cant get within 900 meters of a convoy while surfaced - without being detected - either your technique is very poor or you just have not had enough practice. (yes even the convoys with 5 or 6 black swans can be infiltrated)

SH3 is a hunter's game and takes a great deal of patience - especially if you are using the GWX mod.

You must follow convoys for DAYS observing them for course changes and selecting the targets you will hit...spend almost an entire day maneuvering into position and time it so you are in firing position after dark... it is really no easy task; a complete attack (if done properly) from the time the first ship of a convoy is sighted to the sinking of the first target would take at least 3 to 4 days to complete at 1X compression.

Any hunter, or any real Keluen can tell you SH3/GWX is not about the kill, its about the hunt and the series of carefully executed events that leads up to the kill. The sinking of the target ship is but the terminal part of an intricate and envolved multi step process.

review your strategy and method - strive to learn something from every attack - though you might try to "SINK THEM ALL!" you must live with the realization that just as in real life - there will always be the ones that simply got away.

Trust me - I UNDERSTAND YOUR FRUSTRATION - few games will piss you off like spending an hour or two plotting out an attack and you fire a spread of not one... not two... but THREE DUDS at a juicy battleship and he increases to flank and dissapears over the horizon. thats the beauty of SH3 you get all of the glorious victories of the U-boat commander but you also get to see the side no other game shows you... the crushing bitter frustration of dealing with weather... poor equipment and anything else murphy's law can throw at you to thwart your attack.

Even though SH3 is the type of game that is not for everyone i wish you good luck and i hope you reconsider your removal of SH3.

[Heibges]

I routinely sneak within 1000m of the merchants in the weather and visibility conditions you describe. If you take the time to figure out their search patterns, and it may take hours of game and/or real time, you will be able to conduct your night time surface attacks.

[TarJak]

@GoldenRivet: Well said!

[Brag]

@GoldenRivet: Well said!

GoldenRivet: Great definition! :D

[Steel_Tomb]

I must admit I'm hopeless at surface attacks, i never really try them only use the dg on lone ships, always submerge and attack convoys with fish. If I can come home with about 10k + thats a good result imho as its more likely what kaleuns got in RL.

[Penelope_Grey]

Thing with surface attacks is that they ARE better than submerged attacks. For a number of reasons.

1) On the surface in the dark a U-boat is practically invisible. Early war that is.
2) Speed and agility.
3) Hydrophones and Asdic cannot find you.

Underwater you are extremely compromised when it goes to getting the attack going. When attacking underwater, its a case of hit what I can. If the better targets have gone by already... tough.

Also while it is possible to sneak into the lanes, I really do advise against that, it makes a withdrawl rather difficult, not only that, you don't know what is inside that convoy waiting for you, a cruiser perhaps?

In short surface attacks offer better opportunities to do some damage. It also offers an option for escape. I have found you can withdraw, and then return half hour later when your bow tubes are reloaded and attack again! Can't do that submerged!

They are worth mastering. The day I fully mastered surface attacks was the day I put my daring surface attack thread up. :D

Usually what happens to me is, I attack need to go to ahead flank briefly to get my other two tubes fired, end up crash diving as my torpedoes hit. Sometimes I attack and get away scott free... but there is one question I want to ask... Who here, gets nervous about attacking a convoy?

[SmokinTep]

I'm always nervous attacking a convoy. I stay away from surface attacks. I find that they will start zig zagging which makes it a lot more difficult. Early war I may attack on the surface, but it is now Nov 41, and I want to get my boat home in one piece.

[danurve]

I nominate Penelope_Grey to make a video on surface attack expertise :know:

My attempts at them usually end in disaster.
I have however become good at what I call spider attacks from submerged positions.

Btw: so friggin what if certain things in the game are scripted. What do you want for 20$ and free?

[Avatar]

Be careful of doing the ol' decks awash thing at night and in a storm. I do that too, but once my boat dipped down deep enough for the escourt to hear my engines and then they were on to me. I was travelling at about Ahead Standard.
As for SH3 being scripted? I dont think that's true. The box says a fully dynamic campaign.

[KeybdFlyer]

Nicely put, GoldenRivet. What makes SH3/GWX stand apart from other "games" (for me) is that it approaches reality while still remaining playable. Things do go wrong and no amount of careful planning or skillful execution of those plans can neutralise their effects. The task is to then recover from the situation and get back into position for another try - even if it again results in failure. Frustrating at times, yes. But immensely satisfying when you get the reward for your efforts! Does anybody remember Total Annihilation by Cavedog from 1995? That game went on for years past it's expected demise (based on it's programming level) because it had similar qualities. SH3/GWX will be the same - immersion, re-playability and graphics that still amaze will see it through for many years yet! IMHO anyway, lol.

[The Munster]

Only time I get that feeling in my stomach is at periscope depth when the front ships of three columms are approaching, getting larger and larger and just as you start figuring out who the heavy guys are, that gut wrenching 'ping' kicks off from the leading Escort.

[Canovaro]

Only time I get that feeling in my stomach is at periscope depth when the front ships of three columms are approaching, getting larger and larger and just as you start figuring out who the heavy guys are, that gut wrenching 'ping' kicks off from the leading Escort.
:yep::yep::yep:

I dream about the asdic sound, and then I wake up from it feeling realy alarmed, seriously.
I'm always nervous when attacking a convoy! :o

[HMCS]

The box says a fully dynamic campaign.
Well, if it says so on the box, then it MUST be true!!

Ha ha ha.

But seriously folks, I have downloaded GWX and loving it. I always get more responses to a highly critical topic line than a less critical one. Some very good tips presented, many thanks.

Whaddya gonna do? It's the Coyote in me (trickster).

Stay tuned for "this game ruined my marriage", or "this *******ING game gave me PTSD".
I think that MSNBC or Fox News might pick up on that as well.

[Penelope_Grey]

The box says a fully dynamic campaign.
Well, if it says so on the box, then it MUST be true!!

Ha ha ha.

But seriously folks, I have downloaded GWX and loving it. I always get more responses to a highly critical topic line than a less critical one. Some very good tips presented, many thanks.

Whaddya gonna do? It's the Coyote in me (trickster).

Yes it is true. They can't put "Dynamic Campaign" on the box if it is not true, that is basically misleading the customer and is a crime.

Whadda we gonna do? I have a few good ideas kicking about in my head. :hulk:

Least you said thanks though.:up:

[java`s revenge]

I get a laugh when people complain about tankers not sinking.

Tankers are compartmented vessels that are either full of air when empty, and thus have a great deal of reserve bouyancy, or they are full of liquid that is lighter than water, and thus have a great deal of reserve bouyancy.

In real life, tankers were harder to sink than cargo vessels, because of the compartmentalization inherent in a vessel designed to ship liquids.

Yes okay i do agree but you forget what kind of cargo a tanker had.
Did you ever hold a burning match to a drum of benzin?

I can remember in my youthtime when i saw wwII documentary on tv that a wolfpack attacked a convoy and that tankers were burning and / or exploding very well.

I have never read about it on this forum that people know about
very dangerous cargo a tanker can/could consist. Everybody thinks that
a tanker in the game transports milk or so.

Only how difficult it is to sink a tanker in the game by compartments.

Man oh man what is this for kind of speaking.

For example, the Jave (photo hereunder) sunk within 15 minutes by one japanese torpedo.
How? It had just loaded his seamines under deck.

[GoldenRivet]

Tanker cargo could include any of the following and more:

Fuel Oil
Aviation Fuel
Jet Fuel
Crude Oil
Diesel
Gasoline
Sea Water ballast
Fresh Water Ballast
Machine or Lubricating oil (not explosively combustible)

Remember Fuel vapor is what really burns - i have seen a lit match submerged into a jar of gasoline - which extinguished the match just as if it were submerged into water. but when you begin to place a cap over the jar with a small hole and repeat the process you get a jet shooting out the hole.

If you slam a ww2 era torpedo into the side of a tanker the oil contents are not likely to just explode with catastrophic force sinking the whole ship in seconds. The compartment will flood to an extent, oil will spill out to an extent. Naval Architects design ships with this sort of event in mind.

if you REALLY want to kill a tanker catch him under the following conditions

1. Moving slowly
2. Calm or no wind
3. Calm sea
4. Torpedo the ship once to cause a breach
5. Torpedo the ship a second time to detonate the contents

here is why this works:

A slow moving tanker in calm wind and calm sea's has a hard time getting rid of exposed fuel and oil vapor. If you torpedo him, massive amounts of vapor will leave the ship rapidly enveloping the ship in a cloud of explosive gasses. All it takes is one tiny spark to take her out... thats where the second torpedo comes in :)

set one torpedo to magnetic detonation under the keel in a spot just forward of the wheel house. send a second torpedo with impact detonation at about 4 meters running depth. This will guarantee you a sinking and will almost always result in the tanker splitting in half.

[bigboywooly]

And we all forget the SS Ohio

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Ohio

There was a tanker that didnt sink despite being torpedoed\bombed and having a Ge aircraft crash onto the deck
Was a bit of a mess but no grand explosion

Sometimes tankers explode sometimes not

The mission editor has 3 cargo loadouts for tankers
Only 1 is fuel
So there is a chance the ship wont be carrying anything volatile
Torpedo that and you wont ever get a fireball

Mind you one of the other loadouts is ammo so thats about as explosive as you can get

[Sailor Steve]

My favorite is the San Demetrio: the tanker that not only didn't sink, she came back to rescue her own crew!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_San_Demetrio