Tour de Farce

[Skybird]

Several teams now have sanctioned their own drivers. Now even the tour leader in the yellow shirt has been stopped - by his own team. The organizers of the tour still are hesitant to be consequent, obviously the show is more important for them than consequent anti-doping policies. Meanwhile, outside the field of active drivers, former idols have their heads in the sling (Ulrich), are about to find a rope around their neck (Armstrong), some even already died from side-effects of their doping, or try to arrange deals with the state attorneys (several active or planned drivers of the current tour).

How serious could an anti-dope policy have been , if the control of the system was left for the most to those criminal figures who previously had made a system of doping? Did anyone really believe that people who used needles and blood conserves all of a sudden would say "Okay, let's clean it up", and immediately would make a 180° turnout and stick to their words? That assumptions was naive, and ridiculous.

The bike sports stinks to heaven. Sport doctors can - and have - calculate for you that the energy the human body is burning during one day at the tour with that kind of speed that we see amongst professionals would mean an equivalent of eating 10-15 packages of pasta/noodles per day. Anyone believing bikers eat that much - every day???

Also, what worth have anti doping policies - if you follow them, and the others not? The competition still is distorted, and unfair. I just imagine what will happening duzring the Olymoics in China. China will make sure at all cost that the Olympics on it's own soild bring golden times to comepnsate for the financial investement, and to raise the prestige. Protection of the health of individual athletes is not really necessary for acchieving that. Of course, other nations will send massively doped athletes as well.

It's not just the Tour, the Tour just seem to be the tip of the iceberg, imo. And that'S why I say: stop the hypocricy around sports. I would like to see doping not only being legalised, but to make it obligatory for every professional athelete. Be honest to the audience, and let every young talent know from the very beginning what he is heading into. at least, that way equal chances will be brought back that way, even if through the backdoor. Since the Olympic spirit is as dead as that mouse I just rolled over with my tank anyway, and sporting events could not survive withoiut being turned into massive sponsoring events and economical showcases, let's be at least honest about the nature of things. Those who feel an obligation to the ideals of free, fair, equal-chanced sporting competition, should stay away from the world championships, Olympics, tours, and whatever there is. Leave the stage to the showactors. Whatever the tour today is: sport in the wider context of certain ideals and a certain spirit has little to do with it. Stop wasting public money into promoting a show for cheating egos, that gives the young ones nothing but false idols.

Becasue if you have not understood that sporting spirit is more than just about winning at all cost, even at the cost of betraying and lying, than you still have something important to learn. Fame is superficial and will fade sooner or later, often it is a question of days only. - The quality of mind and attitude you realized in yourself in the moment of victory or defeat is what will last, and stay with you. and if you see honesty in that exoerience, and the lack of cheating, then it was worth it, no matter how it went. some long time ago there was a marathon event, and short before the line, inside the stadium, one man or woman was stumbling and fell down, exhausted, the one before him/her, in medal ranks, stopped, turned around, grabed the person and helped him/her over the line. I do not remeber the rankling. but for me this was the winner of the race - for he had defeated his own ego. No greater victory and triumph there can be.

[mbthegreat]

by driver do you mean "rider"

[Heibges]

Just look at Lyle Alzado.:cry:

[Reaves]

some long time ago there was a marathon event, and short before the line, inside the stadium, one man or woman was stumbling and fell down, exhausted, the one before him/her, in medal ranks, stopped, turned around, grabed the person and helped him/her over the line. I do not remeber the rankling. but for me this was the winner of the race - for he had defeated his own ego. No greater victory and triumph there can be.


That could be John Landy, a truly great Australian.

In Australia, Landy is perhaps most famously remembered for his performance in the 1500 metres final at the 1956 Australian National Championships prior to the Melbourne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne) 1956 Olympic Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956_Summer_Olympics). In the race, Landy stopped and doubled backed to check on fellow runner Ron Clarke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Clarke) after another runner clipped Clarke's heel, causing him to fall early in the third lap of the race. Clarke, the then-junior 1500 m world champion, who had been leading the race, got back to his feet and started running again; Landy followed. Incredibly, in the final two laps Landy made up a large deficit to win the race, something considered one of the greatest moments in Australian sporting history. Said the National Centre for History and Education in Australia, "It was a spontaneous gesture of sportsmanship and it has never been forgotten."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Landy

[Skybird]

No, I do not mean Landy, I mean a marathon race, a wordchampionship or olympics somwhere between the 1988 games in Seoul, and probably 2000. It was dry, very hot, and a clear sunny day. The ladies (I think it were female runners) also were threatened to be disqualified, for helping each other over the line was considered to be against the rules. Don't know if that was made true and they lost their ranking. I think they nevertheless ranked both amongst the top three.

[Skybird]

Update: new tour leader and owner of the yellow shirt is Alberto Contador from team Discovery channel. He is a known customer of the doping doctor Fuentes and therefore even shouldn't have been given permission to start at the tour at all.

If a last bomb was needed to bring the whole tour concept down to shatters - this is it.

[Konovalov]

I think that the title of your topic is perfect. :up: These riders are ruining their own sport. What a nice way to repay the sport that allows them to earn a living not to mention possible fame. :nope:

[Smaragdadler]

Allways the same. Remember the "great sport nation" GDR, who was "on first level with US and USSR at Olympics" at the 80's?
All systematicly doped by SED-goverment order...:)

[Takeda Shingen]

You are absolutely correct, Sky. Cycling has failed to reconcile it's substance abuse policy with reality. Doping exists in every major sport, but cycling seems to be the worst when it comes to frequency and publicity.

[Heibges]

I think in the United States there is still the perception it is just a few bad apples.

Read..Barry Bonds.

But I think it was 1992 or 1993 and they had like 20 or 30 guys who hit 50 homeruns. The fans loved it, and baseball said nothing.

[TteFAboB]

Yes, let them dope themselves but keep track of collateral effects: any athlete who dies before some life expectancy mark looses all medals, victories and throphies. So does any athlete that starts requiring dialysis at any age. Anything else? Liver failure too perhaps? And any hormonal therapy I guess.

Now we're back into competition: to see who has the body that can take the greatest amount of trash and survive long enough AND win some events.

[Heibges]

I think the sporting press is doing a pretty fine job of keeping us appraised of these events.

We know more about BALCO than we do about Scooter Libby's treasonous behavior.

[Reaves]

The advertisements on TV call this 'Real Tough Guys.'

Well with shrunken genitalia from steroid abuse I don't think they are real tough or real guys...

What should have a large amount of prestige is now loaded with controversy, welcome to the new millenium!

[micky1up]

the problem is this nearly every sport has went from having characters to having robots with no personality for instance tennis we had macenroe connors borg they had a laugh and a joke and yes even smiled its the same with many sports snooker and to some extent football and golf even formaula one they have become too professional with all the time spent on winning and none on having fun

[Konovalov]

the problem is this nearly every sport has went from having charaters to having robots with no personality for instance tennis we had macenroe connors borg they had a laugh and a joke and yes even smiled its the same with many sports snooker and to some extent football and golf even formaula one they have become too professional with all the time spent on winning and none on having fun

That's because it all boils down to money these days. Massive prize money along with huge commercial endorsements and sponsorship.

In the words of the fictional character Gordon Gecko from the brilliant film Wall Street, "...greed for a lack of a better word—is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms, greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge, has marked the upward surge of mankind."

Heck, I loved that speech he made in the film Wall Street that I think it deserves to be added to my sig. :D

[Skybird]

McEnroe vs Connors, and later - popular over here - the duels between Leconte and Becker - those were the times!

It's not always that becoming old means to glorify the past. I think many things 20 or more years back really were much better in fact. It seems many people agree on that, at least over here.

Jimmy Connors - a warrior soul who nevertheless never took the game overly serious and always had time for a smile, but still putting his heart into the match. It's just that he seemed to know that there is more valuable things in life than just tennis. I loved to watch him. What is he doing today?

[HunterICX]

If I see the Sport news on the TV
I,m wondering

if its the Tour de France
or a Game show ''Whois doping!?''

[Thniper]

If I see the Sport news on the TV
I,m wondering

if its the Tour de France
or a Game show ''Whois doping!?''

You mean "Who is not doping?" :D

As long as there's money in the business you'll have doping all the time.
Cycling isn't a sport anymore, it's just another form of making money.
And the cyclists are the ones who get the smallest piece of the action.

Same goes for other sports like football, athletics, etc.

[tycho102]

obviously the show is more important for them than consequent anti-doping policies.

How serious could an anti-dope policy have been , if the control of the system was left for the most to those criminal figures who previously had made a system of doping? Did anyone really believe that people who used needles and blood conserves all of a sudden would say "Okay, let's clean it up", and immediately would make a 180° turnout and stick to their words? That assumptions was naive, and ridiculous.

Also, what worth have anti doping policies - if you follow them, and the others not?

The competition still is distorted, and unfair.

Protection of the health of individual athletes is not really necessary for acchieving that.

Of course, other nations will send massively doped athletes as well.

It's not just the Tour, the Tour just seem to be the tip of the iceberg, imo.

And that'S why I say: stop the hypocricy around sports.

I would like to see doping not only being legalised, but to make it obligatory for every professional athelete. Be honest to the audience, and let every young talent know from the very beginning what he is heading into.
Christ, dude. Here I was going to go down through and respond to all those other statements, and then you blew that one out of the water with the two correct sentences. You know, from time to time, you're fairly locked-on.

"Sports" haven't changed. They are still designed to find the people with the best genetic predisposition. In the 21st century, that will be the people who are most able to tolerate the synthetic drugs and hormones. Eventually this will swing over to bionics and depressed immune systems.

I don't much care, except that some of these......advances have application to combat infantry. And it's as good a place as any to test new, unapproved drugs that can bypass the screening system. The screening system is important because it forces corporations to develop new drugs and hormones that are not yet detectable. I've no opinion of whether it's right or wrong, other than everyone should simply be aware of the system's functionality and purpose.

However.

I don't care to see the system applied to children, such as the 10 year old gymnists that everyone uses in the Olympics. Professional adult athletes are responsible for their own choices, but bastards need to be executed for pumping stuff into the kids.

[micky1up]

sorry your wrong sport has changed over the years AGENTs have got involved make sport a money thing when before it wasnt so now its about fee's and the agents CUT

[Heibges]

When did Borg ever smile? :D

[Skybird]

When did Borg ever smile? :DWhen he assimilated Wimbledon.

[corleonedk]

Whitout doping there wont be any Tour de france left,because you wont have the riders that attract tv audience.Riders like Indurain ,armstrong,riis, ect,those who seem super humans.The leadership of the tour knows that,the trick is to seem like they are doing something about it.

Michael Rasmussen did not get kicked,because he was doped.He got kicked because some journalist said he saw him in Italy,something that has yet to be proven at all.That made the Tour leadership afraid of another doping case,and told Rabobank to whitdraw him.In other words eighter do it,or get the whole team kicked.If he was doped or not and he properly was,is not the case here really.He tested negative in all test both before and during the race..Right now he is home building his defense,and the real fun will begin if he can prove he was in Mexico by his passport like he said he was.

[Fish]

Update: new tour leader and owner of the yellow shirt is Alberto Contador from team Discovery channel. He is a known customer of the doping doctor Fuentes and therefore even shouldn't have been given permission to start at the tour at all.

.

Not the truth Skybird, your slandering the guy. :nope:

[Fish]

Michael Rasmussen did not get kicked,because he was doped.He got kicked because some journalist said he saw him in Italy,something that has yet to be proven at all..

Very well spoken.
The lynch party is there before the judge has spoken. :down:

[micky1up]

Michael Rasmussen did not get kicked,because he was doped.He got kicked because some journalist said he saw him in Italy,something that has yet to be proven at all..

Very well spoken.
The lynch party is there before the judge has spoken. :down:


maybe but the actions are not of an innocent man you would protest vermently looks like he just accepted it and left

[corleonedk]

Well imagine he can actually prove them wrong..Then what..A major lawsuit against Tour de France and his old team,his old team suing Tour de france..And what will the riders do,knowing it could hapend to them aswell..Will they risk having their lives destroyed,just because of rumors and maybe false statements by journalists..It could destroy the tour aswell,they left themselves wide open by acting in panic like this.This would never have hapend under the old tour leadership..Its going to be interesting to follow this in the coming days.

Like in every sport there is and will always be doping,and the only way they could ever stop it in Tour de France is shutting the race down for good.And the chance of them doing that,is equal to me hitting a fishing boat form 10k km distance 1st shot.Unless every major TV station decide they wont cover the tour anymore,but then they will cover something else.And guess what.:know:

[corleonedk]

Michael Rasmussen did not get kicked,because he was doped.He got kicked because some journalist said he saw him in Italy,something that has yet to be proven at all..
Very well spoken.
The lynch party is there before the judge has spoken. :down:

maybe but the actions are not of an innocent man you would protest vermently looks like he just accepted it and left

The man got his life destroyed,and is in shock understandably..He said that he will respond to this in a day or two..He is not totally clean,he did get 2 warnings from ICU.But that itself isn't a big deal,he is not the first to receive warnings.But it was enough for the press to smell blood and demand his head,and up pops a journalist and say he saw him in Italy..And no one wonders why he didn't say anything before.

[Skybird]

Update: new tour leader and owner of the yellow shirt is Alberto Contador from team Discovery channel. He is a known customer of the doping doctor Fuentes and therefore even shouldn't have been given permission to start at the tour at all.

.

Not the truth Skybird, your slandering the guy. :nope:

No, his name is black on white on a list of customers by Fuentes. It has been reported repeatedly in the media these days, and there was a full articvle in a German biker magazoine as well. but it is not only us Germans saying so. In the main, it is the Spanish examiners.

[Skybird]

Michael Rasmussen did not get kicked,because he was doped.He got kicked because some journalist said he saw him in Italy,something that has yet to be proven at all..

Very well spoken.
The lynch party is there before the judge has spoken. :down:
No, by international regulations, you are obligated to make yourself available to doping tests, even if they are surpsising. He repeatedly evaded that by making wrong statements about where he was going to conduzct training, and thus doping controlers were unable to find him. By the sport's regulation, a certain ammount of failed dates for doping tests are counted as doping, and he has been seen in training places were he was not expected, and in hiding training dresses that obviously were meant to help evading that his staying location becomes known. His team fired him becasue he lied to the team's managers about his training locations as well. As a pro being payed several hundred thousand dollars per year, he certainly knows the regulations. If he forgot them, he is an idiot who brought his whole team into discredit. If he remembered them, he must allow the question why he tried to evade the controllers so hard and so often.

Fish discovers his heart for the sport, it seems :) If so, help to clean up the pigsty - don't play it down.

[micky1up]

Michael Rasmussen did not get kicked,because he was doped.He got kicked because some journalist said he saw him in Italy,something that has yet to be proven at all..
Very well spoken.
The lynch party is there before the judge has spoken. :down:

maybe but the actions are not of an innocent man you would protest vermently looks like he just accepted it and left

The man got his life destroyed,and is in shock understandably..He said that he will respond to this in a day or two..He is not totally clean,he did get 2 warnings from ICU.But that itself isn't a big deal,he is not the first to receive warnings.But it was enough for the press to smell blood and demand his head,and up pops a journalist and say he saw him in Italy..And no one wonders why he didn't say anything before.


why you defending him it looks clear cut to me he knew the rules evaded the test (why would someone do that?) its the same as people complaining about cctv cameras and ID cards if you have nothing to hide theres no problem

[corleonedk]

I'm defending him because its possible he is innocent,its that simple really...

Did he make mistakes..Yes and he received 2 warnings..3rd warning will get you charged for doping..But do you people know how many warnings they give out each year to people,its allot of warnings because they fail to give the correct information.But to make this clear,2 warnings is not enough.Why should it be different for this man than everybody else.

Wrong he did not get kicked for the lie,he got kicked because the Tour leaders put pressure on Rabobank fearing another doping scandal.And i can understand them,dont get me wrong here.

It has yet to be proven that he was in Italy at all..All they have is a statement from a journalist..

Is he doped or not..Who knows..According to all the tests of him,he is not.And those should be the ones that matters..Everything else is just speculations of a scandal press..And ask yourself if you prefer to be judged by those,or in a court of law..I know what i would choose ;)

[micky1up]

quiet often in the UK the senences handed down by our out of touch judges is monsterous i dont trust the judges at all an man can kill someone and get 10 years or less but if you steal some insured cash from a bank you get 15 years plus even when you harmed no one

[Skybird]

Wrong he did not get kicked for the lie,he got kicked because the Tour leaders put pressure on Rabobank fearing another doping scandal.And i can understand them,dont get me wrong here.
It has been exactly the other way around. the tour management desperately tries to give an impression of business as usual, and was and is under massive force for being to soft on doping. It's not my conclusion when saiyng so - it was reported in and out in Tv interviews and sports TV programs beside the tour - for both German TV channels who initially reported live habe completey withdrawn and stopped any coverage of the live events. a third channel then took over, only finding himself becoming the taregt of so masisve public criticism that they let the opportunity forfeit and broadcasted live covergae from German football events instead.

Sponsors and team managements alike consider to sue several drivers of claims of fraud, seeking compensation for the financial damages the fiasco this year'S tour has brought to them. Germn team Telekom is amongst these, because before the tour the Germans were the leading voice in wanting to battle doping, and then ... German Telekom company probably completely withdraws from sponsoring, along with several other major sponsors and team financiers.

It is not about betraying the sport, and the audience. It is also about economical damage casued by bringing sponsor's names into discredit. Sponsors are not sponsoring for free, they hope for advertising effects, and scoring points in public perception and relation. but what is happeniong right now is not delivering these effects - but exactly the opposite.

A French newsppaper has printed an obituary notice on the Tour de France, saying that it died at the age of 104 after suffering from a long and serious disease... :D

Let's put those nails into the coffin and bury it, then hope it never pops up again like a zombie.

[corleonedk]

I agree i dont see much future for the Tour,because the problem will never go away..I have allot of respect for those two German tv stations,it took allot of balls to make that decision..

Most of the team managements are as deeply involved in this as the riders,its a matter of bringing results to the sponsors.As my old lieutenant use to say..Its ok to cheat,just don't get caught private..

Anyway unless they decide to cancel next years tour,we will see riders get kicked next year also.

[Fish]

Michael Rasmussen did not get kicked,because he was doped.He got kicked because some journalist said he saw him in Italy,something that has yet to be proven at all..

Very well spoken.
The lynch party is there before the judge has spoken. :down:


maybe but the actions are not of an innocent man you would protest vermently looks like he just accepted it and left

Time will learn.

[Fish]

Update: new tour leader and owner of the yellow shirt is Alberto Contador from team Discovery channel. He is a known customer of the doping doctor Fuentes and therefore even shouldn't have been given permission to start at the tour at all.

.

Not the truth Skybird, your slandering the guy. :nope:

No, his name is black on white on a list of customers by Fuentes. It has been reported repeatedly in the media these days, and there was a full articvle in a German biker magazoine as well. but it is not only us Germans saying so. In the main, it is the Spanish examiners.

He was on a list yes, not from Fuentes however, but from the UCI, they cleared him later.

As I am told.

[Fish]

Wrong he did not get kicked for the lie,he got kicked because the Tour leaders put pressure on Rabobank fearing another doping scandal.And i can understand them,dont get me wrong here.
It has been exactly the other way around. the tour management desperately tries to give an impression of business as usual, and was and is under massive force for being to soft on doping. It's not my conclusion when saiyng so - it was reported in and out in Tv interviews and sports TV programs beside the tour - for both German TV channels who initially reported live habe completey withdrawn and stopped any coverage of the live events. a third channel then took over, only finding himself becoming the taregt of so masisve public criticism that they let the opportunity forfeit and broadcasted live covergae from German football events instead.

Sponsors and team managements alike consider to sue several drivers of claims of fraud, seeking compensation for the financial damages the fiasco this year'S tour has brought to them. Germn team Telekom is amongst these, because before the tour the Germans were the leading voice in wanting to battle doping, and then ... German Telekom company probably completely withdraws from sponsoring, along with several other major sponsors and team financiers.

It is not about betraying the sport, and the audience. It is also about economical damage casued by bringing sponsor's names into discredit. Sponsors are not sponsoring for free, they hope for advertising effects, and scoring points in public perception and relation. but what is happeniong right now is not delivering these effects - but exactly the opposite.

A French newsppaper has printed an obituary notice on the Tour de France, saying that it died at the age of 104 after suffering from a long and serious disease... :D

Let's put those nails into the coffin and bury it, then hope it never pops up again like a zombie.

I can understand the German TV journalists, hoping the rest of the world folow them. Sorry, we don't.
When you want to stop the tour because of dope, you can stop sport all over the world.
The tour is almost clean, just a few dumbheads think they can come away. Not.:nope:

[Skybird]

I can understand the German TV journalists, hoping the rest of the world folow them.
Pardon...?
Sorry, we don't.
Who is "we"?
When you want to stop the tour because of dope, you can stop sport all over the world.
Okay, then lets carry on and don'T mind about it. Fish wants to have his show.

"And that'S why I say: stop the hypocricy around sports. I would like to see doping not only being legalised, but to make it obligatory for every professional athelete. Be honest to the audience, and let every young talent know from the very beginning what he is heading into. at least, that way equal chances will be brought back that way, even if through the backdoor. Since the Olympic spirit is as dead as that mouse I just rolled over with my tank anyway, and sporting events could not survive withoiut being turned into massive sponsoring events and economical showcases, let's be at least honest about the nature of things. "
The tour is almost clean, just a few dumbheads think they can come away. Not.:nope:
Now you must be kidding, or you must have very spectacular evidence that proves all the experts and reasearchers and examiners telling us the exact opposite are wrong, and all their evidence are fakes. Bills with names and blood-bottles with clear links to certain drivers mean nothing, of course, nor does positive doping test results, and suspicious actings of certain drivers mean anything.

there is nothing wrong in liking bike riding, Fish. I can understand it, I do it myself a lot, and people in Munster are more bike-crazy than the Dutch. But I strongly recommend not to do it with closed eyes.

[micky1up]

oh look the second test has proved poistive and hes been sacked from team 2 tests dont lie do they

[corleonedk]

Michael Rasmussen have given an interview stating that he still think he did nothing wrong,to the point of getting him kicked from the race.And that it will be taken to court,but also that given the chance you will see him in next years Tour..

Also there is a demand that ICU release a list of warnings given to riders in this years Tour the France,ICU have not responded to this yet.But would be interesting indeed to look at that list,im sure it would prove that Michael Rasmussen was just one of many.

[Fish]

Last rumors:
1 Cassine lied about Rasmussen being in Italy.
2 Teo de Rooy, team chef Rabo bank team quit his job? :-?

[Skybird]

Another biker disqualified for being tested positively on EPO: Iban Mayo, 16th place in the tour ranking.

Another way of looking at things:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,497226,00.html