Sh4 likes multi-core...a little

[XanderF]

I did some testing recently to try and determine which type of CPU would be better for my system - a really fast single-core (AMD Athlon64 1mb cache @ 2.7ghz) or slower dual-core (AMD Athlon64 dual 1mb-cache-per-core @ 2.0ghz).

Results for Sh4 were taken in an 'easy' mode (to make sinking ships fast and reliable for explosion/physics effects) - one run in the 'Battle of Samar' scenario, another from leaving Pearl.

Tests were taken with the 1.2 patch, each run 3 times performing the same actions, using FRAPS to collect data. Without further ado:

http://xanderf.go.dyndns.org/images/pc/sh4.gif

As you can see, for the 'Battle of Samar', going from slow-dual to fast-single made fairly little difference to average and max FPS - a drop, but within the margin of error. However, minimum framerate dropped a LOT going single-core.

Ditto leaving Peal - although the avg and max definitely went up, the min dropped much more than the gain in avg and max. And, as anyone who games for a while knows, it's the minimums you 'feel' more than anything else ('max' is just about useless, actually).

As the game does not appear to really take advantage of multi-threaded design, I'd suggest these numbers represent improvements in overall system efficiency - sound, loading textures, even 3d vertex operation optimizations (both ATI and nVidia use multi-core CPUs to help with this).

Still, it's impressive to see a drop of 30%-40% going from a dual 2.0ghz CPU to a single 2.7ghz CPU on a game that supposedly does not benefit from dual-cores at all!

My recommendation to smooth out the 'framerate drops' in playing is definitely to get a dual core CPU, and as fast of one as possible - one can only imagine what a dual-core at 2.6ghz or 2.8ghz would look like!

(Oh, one more thing - results were taken on a Radeon X1950 Pro - 512mb PCI-E 16x system with 2gb of ram at DDR500 speeds. Game at 1280x960 with 4xAA and 16xAF. I think almost everyone - myself, included, when starting this test - would have assumed that this is a video-card-limited situation. And I think it may still be - but it's clear the CPU choice even in such a "GPU throttled" case DEFINITELY makes a difference!)

[Jmack]

curiously ... i have :

intel(R) Core(R)2 6400 2.14ghz
2048 mb DDRII
geForce 7300gt 512 mb DDRII
320HD

and i get better fps by setting affinity
of SH4 for running on CPU1 or CPU0
if i set it to both fps drops

in fact ... im almost shure that my
old system with this 7300gt would
get better results

and it was a pentium 4 at 3.08Ghz

[clayp]

I know you guys hate me when I post...:oops: I get 115-130 fps in bridge view and battle..Interior views are over 200 fps..This is with game settings and card settings as high as they will go....:cool:

[Lagger123987]

8800s are pricy, better to wait for a little price drop on them.

[XanderF]

curiously ... i have :

intel(R) Core(R)2 6400 2.14ghz
2048 mb DDRII
geForce 7300gt 512 mb DDRII
320HD

and i get better fps by setting affinity
of SH4 for running on CPU1 or CPU0
if i set it to both fps drops

in fact ... im almost shure that my
old system with this 7300gt would
get better results

and it was a pentium 4 at 3.08Ghz

Have the Microsoft dual-core hotfix (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?displaylang=en&FamilyID=C2AB5A48-8240-4934-BBD8-34FB8A0FCE3B) installed?

Also, the 7300GT may be bottlenecking things a bit - it's a very, very slow card. VERY close to the GeForce 6600 (non-GT) / Radeon X600XT in performance. Also, if you installed the nVidia drivers since having a dual-core system, they will optimize themselves for dual-core performance, and may be swamping the video card with things to do (actually resulting in a performance drop).

I know you guys hate me when I post...:oops: I get 115-130 fps in bridge view and battle..Interior views are over 200 fps..This is with game settings and card settings as high as they will go....:cool:

Is that WITH 4x anti-aliasing and 16x aniso filtering? Given my framerate just about doubles when I turn those off, and your card isn't THAT much more powerful than mine (I mean, obviously, it is - but closer to 3x performance, not 10x), your numbers seem more like those are not on, or are not working properly.

[-Pv-]

I have the MAD 2.2GHz DC and I never get the low frame rates Xander reported. I have a graphics card that can keep up with the CPU.
-Pv-

[XanderF]

I have the MAD 2.2GHz DC and I never get the low frame rates Xander reported. I have a graphics card that can keep up with the CPU.
-Pv-

First off:
- What video card do you have? Given the absolute best, most powerful card on the market (GeForce 8800 Ultra), is only about 3 times the performance of mine (http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=725&model2=775&chart=277) (yes, I know it's not an 8800 Ultra in the chart - but it's an 8800GTX at nearly the same spec), I'm skeptical you have a card that gets so much better performance with the same settings.

Then:
- Are you SURE you have these settings? 1280x1024 with 4xAA? AA was a real pain to get working in Sh4, and it does halve the framerate (at least). Looks GREAT, though, so it's worth doing.
- Have you run FRAPS (http://www.fraps.com/) to check your framerate? Sh4 is not a shooter, and before doing so, I would have sworn my framerate was easily double what it actually is. I'm used to playing games with 60fps+, and even in 'Oblivion' with the same basic settings (1280x1024, 4xAA), I get better than 40fps average, and I max out over 200fps in dungeons in that game. Sh4 is just different, though. 20fps in Sh4 does feel a lot like 50fps+ in other titles, so I bet if you run FRAPS you'd be surprised at what your actual framerate IS in the game.

[clayp]

curiously ... i have :

intel(R) Core(R)2 6400 2.14ghz
2048 mb DDRII
geForce 7300gt 512 mb DDRII
320HD

and i get better fps by setting affinity
of SH4 for running on CPU1 or CPU0
if i set it to both fps drops

in fact ... im almost shure that my
old system with this 7300gt would
get better results

and it was a pentium 4 at 3.08Ghz
Have the Microsoft dual-core hotfix (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?displaylang=en&FamilyID=C2AB5A48-8240-4934-BBD8-34FB8A0FCE3B) installed?

Also, the 7300GT may be bottlenecking things a bit - it's a very, very slow card. VERY close to the GeForce 6600 (non-GT) / Radeon X600XT in performance. Also, if you installed the nVidia drivers since having a dual-core system, they will optimize themselves for dual-core performance, and may be swamping the video card with things to do (actually resulting in a performance drop).

I know you guys hate me when I post...:oops: I get 115-130 fps in bridge view and battle..Interior views are over 200 fps..This is with game settings and card settings as high as they will go....:cool:
Is that WITH 4x anti-aliasing and 16x aniso filtering? Given my framerate just about doubles when I turn those off, and your card isn't THAT much more powerful than mine (I mean, obviously, it is - but closer to 3x performance, not 10x), your numbers seem more like those are not on, or are not working properly.

Thats with 16 and 16 and everything else maxed...I have no reason to lie.I will try and take some screen shots...I'm trying to do some screenshots but I'm having a problem figureing it out.One things for sure I will nevere again post in any of these performance threads on this site every time I do Iam called a lier....:(

[clayp]

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/3222/settingshl4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[sunvalleyslim]

Hey clayp,
Take no offense. It's just some guys can't believe your out doing them. Unless they go out and match your system exactly, and then run their own tests there's no way they can refute your claims. So unless someone can prove otherwise then your claim stands. Spouting off without facts proves nothing on their part..........:up: :up:

[clayp]

Hey clayp,
Take no offense. It's just some guys can't believe your out doing them. Unless they go out and match your system exactly, and then run their own tests there's no way they can refute your claims. So unless someone can prove otherwise then your claim stands. Spouting off without facts proves nothing on their part..........:up: :up:

I dont need the agravation and I would NEVER call someone a lier on this forum..:-?

[clayp]

Notice the fps top left!!!!

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/281/sh4img2272007201836671gs8.png (http://imageshack.us)

[clayp]

Notice the Fraps fps top left...Any one else want to call me a lier!!!!!!!!

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/8550/sh4img2272007202641265tq2.png (http://imageshack.us)

[fair_weather]

Atleast I know what my system will act like, or close to.

Getting in one weeks time:

AMD 64 5600+ (Dual core) 2.8ghz
OCZ gold ram 2gig kit (will up it to 4 gigs in a month or two)
Nvidia 8800GTX :D
250 gig hdd
DVD-ram drive
Motherboard with onboard Quadro.
Vista

I won't be running it at super high res (monitor can only support 1440x900) But you can be sure I'm maxing the settings as soon as I get it.

[clayp]

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/4930/sh4img2272007204134734hf8.png (http://imageshack.us)

[XanderF]

LOL - ClayP, no offense - I wasn't trying to accuse you of lying, just that you might have something set wrong.

And, as I suspected, you do. Haven't you noticed that you don't actually have any anti-aliasing in the game?

From your own screenshot:

http://xanderf.go.dyndns.org/images/pc/sh4_gun.jpg

But, that does make sense. You see that your FSAA settings are set to "Enhance the applications setting".

http://xanderf.go.dyndns.org/images/pc/settings.jpg

What that does is work with the in-game FSAA options to choose the 'correct' mode of CSAA or MSAA, depending on which the game requests and the best mode available from the video driver.

However, Sh4 HAS no in-game FSAA settings, so...it does nothing. The setting below (currently '16x') thus has no effect at all - it's "enhancing" the in-game FSAA to 16x, but 16x times zero is...still zero.

You need to change this value to "override the application setting" (or "Override any Application" - verbology varies by version) in order to get any FSAA in Sh4.

So, to recap, at the moment, you have no FSAA running. Your screenshot shows this, as does the settings panel. I absolutely don't believe this is malicious deception, and am certainly not accusing you of anything at all. You were probably just not aware of what the settings did, which is no surprise given the ENORMOUS number of changes to the control panel nVidia keeps putting out - just trying to keep up with what each setting does, and how to use them - can keep anyone on their toes.

[Jmack]

curiously ... i have :

intel(R) Core(R)2 6400 2.14ghz
2048 mb DDRII
geForce 7300gt 512 mb DDRII
320HD

and i get better fps by setting affinity
of SH4 for running on CPU1 or CPU0
if i set it to both fps drops

in fact ... im almost shure that my
old system with this 7300gt would
get better results

and it was a pentium 4 at 3.08Ghz
Have the Microsoft dual-core hotfix (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?displaylang=en&FamilyID=C2AB5A48-8240-4934-BBD8-34FB8A0FCE3B) installed?

Also, the 7300GT may be bottlenecking things a bit - it's a very, very slow card. VERY close to the GeForce 6600 (non-GT) / Radeon X600XT in performance. Also, if you installed the nVidia drivers since having a dual-core system, they will optimize themselves for dual-core performance, and may be swamping the video card with things to do (actually resulting in a performance drop).

I know you guys hate me when I post...:oops: I get 115-130 fps in bridge view and battle..Interior views are over 200 fps..This is with game settings and card settings as high as they will go....:cool:
Is that WITH 4x anti-aliasing and 16x aniso filtering? Given my framerate just about doubles when I turn those off, and your card isn't THAT much more powerful than mine (I mean, obviously, it is - but closer to 3x performance, not 10x), your numbers seem more like those are not on, or are not working properly.

managed to install the update ... what does it do specificly ?

[clayp]

XanderF you are right,I changed that setting and it slowed it down some.Now it gets 90's in bridge view and battle and 140 interior..Picture is much better also...:D

[XanderF]

XanderF you are right,I changed that setting and it slowed it down some.Now it gets 90's in bridge view and battle and 140 interior..Picture is much better also...:D

Glad I could help! FSAA sure is nice looking!

Anyway, to duplicate my above test - the 'leaving Pearl' one is easiest. Start a new patrol in Pearl, and set a series of waypoints going counter-clockwise around the island and ultimately out of the harbor. Make sure your sub is following them at 1/3 throttle, turn on the radio, and switch to external view. Zoom the camera out ALL the way, then hit the left or right arrow key while in camera navigation mode (you want to move the camera, not the sub's rudder! :lol: ) Anyway, just leave the camera spinning around the sub - put a weight on the arrow key or something - and let it run for 5 min. Take a look at the FRAPS averages, then.

I'd be quite interested in your results!

[clayp]

XanderF you are right,I changed that setting and it slowed it down some.Now it gets 90's in bridge view and battle and 140 interior..Picture is much better also...:D
Glad I could help! FSAA sure is nice looking!

Anyway, to duplicate my above test - the 'leaving Pearl' one is easiest. Start a new patrol in Pearl, and set a series of waypoints going counter-clockwise around the island and ultimately out of the harbor. Make sure your sub is following them at 1/3 throttle, turn on the radio, and switch to external view. Zoom the camera out ALL the way, then hit the left or right arrow key while in camera navigation mode (you want to move the camera, not the sub's rudder! :lol: ) Anyway, just leave the camera spinning around the sub - put a weight on the arrow key or something - and let it run for 5 min. Take a look at the FRAPS averages, then.

I'd be quite interested in your results!

I'll try it I dont know how soon but I will and post it back here...:D

[[dc]Blade]

@clayp
What Resolution do you have yours set too? I find that 1600x1200 or 1920x1440 and only 8x FSAA can be a nice comprimise:up:

These were at 1920x1440 and i think it was around 40FPS, remember your eye cant detect anything over 27FPS so as long as you can sustain that figure or above your gona start to get some real sharp images:D

here is a sample of a few with the dreaded wires!

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b83/russ21_uk/sh42007-07-1700-16-42-62.jpg

And Another!
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b83/russ21_uk/sh42007-07-1700-11-33-65.jpg

And it always looks best underwater:yep:
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b83/russ21_uk/sh42007-07-1700-27-57-37.jpg

[clayp]

I have mine set to 1280X960,I'm 67 and a diabetic among other things and I find that best for my eyes..Dosent your resolution make things smaller?

[[dc]Blade]

Yup the downside is it makes things smaller so you need a fairly big sized monitor, i tend to use 1600x1200 as this better to work with, 1920x1440 gives great screen shotts but has its limits in such that you cant realy see small icons so its realy limited in my opinion. But i guess its all down to what feals right for the individual and how it boosts their experiance...

Interesting thread mate its nice too see some comparisons always good for a tip or two:up:

[XanderF]

Blade']Interesting thread mate its nice too see some comparisons always good for a tip or two:up:

Oh, I'd totally be interested in your test results, too!

It's a sad state of affairs, but most hardware sites just don't test games outside the 'bog standard shooter' genre. CERTAINLY nobody has thoroughly tested any sub sims!

Actually...hmmm...this has kinda veered off the topic of this thread (RE: fast single-core vs slow dual-core), so...I'll make a new one for it!

[fair_weather]

I'll be glad to put in my current rig for the test.

Tis as follows:

AMD 64 3200+ 2.0ghz
1 gig DDR1 RAM
ASUS Geforce 7600GT 256mb
MSI K8N Motherboard

I'll run the PH test on all levels. Shouldn't take more than...oh...20-25 minutes when I get home.

[Rilex]

27fps of sharp imagery is fairly noticeable to the eye. Remember that SH4 does not have motion blur. Sharp images (mostly PC games) == need for higher frame rates to be able to fool the eye into perceiving fluid motion. Movies/TV generally do not have this issue, making <30 fps acceptable.

[Nightmare]

Have the Microsoft dual-core hotfix (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?displaylang=en&FamilyID=C2AB5A48-8240-4934-BBD8-34FB8A0FCE3B) installed?
Will this fix help Intel Core 2 Duos? I remember reading on the FutureMark forums that the AMD dual cores get a benefit running this patch but I haven't read anything about Intel processors.

[XanderF]

Have the Microsoft dual-core hotfix (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?displaylang=en&FamilyID=C2AB5A48-8240-4934-BBD8-34FB8A0FCE3B) installed?
Will this fix help Intel Core 2 Duos? I remember reading on the FutureMark forums that the AMD dual cores get a benefit running this patch but I haven't read anything about Intel processors.

Per Microsoft's notes, this is useful for anyone with a CPU that has power-saving features (which would be all recent AMD and Intel CPUs). For AMD, you'd also want to install their specific "Dual Core Optimizer (http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/TechnicalResources/0,,30_182_871_13118,00.html)", but this is obviously not a consideration for Intel. Intel does have an .inf driver (http://downloadcenter.intel.com/filter_results.aspx?strTypes=all&ProductID=2558&OSFullName=Windows*+XP+Professional&lang=eng&strOSs=44&submit=Go%21) for their Core 2 Duo parts, but I do not believe it does anything but identify the chip to the OS.

I'll be glad to put in my current rig for the test.

Tis as follows:

AMD 64 3200+ 2.0ghz
1 gig DDR1 RAM
ASUS Geforce 7600GT 256mb
MSI K8N Motherboard

I'll run the PH test on all levels. Shouldn't take more than...oh...20-25 minutes when I get home.

Cool, thanks! I'd be really interested in seeing how that system performs. I created a full thread for this test over here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=119126)!

[SHARKMEAT]

Clayp: I suggest you use Hardware setting instead of Open Gl as I noticed in your screen shot, this way it will take advantage of the Hardware drivers in DX 9c, and give you a better over all performance for SH4....CHEERS