Manual TDC-something is wrong with me

[supposedtobeworking]

I thought I was okay at manual TDC...I don't know what is going on...PLEASE HELP! Here is what I do...can someone tell me what I am doing wrong or offer how they go about manual TDC? I have watched the videos...and frankly I don't know how werenersobe makes it look so easy since it never pans out like that for me when I actually play the game. Here is what I do:

Get report of merchant...immediately slow to 1/3 and start getting range estimates from the Watch Officer via my personal key command. He says...contact at 22573 Ft. or something like that...okay so what I do then is:

1. Go to Map and mark my subs position. Then figure out the true bearing of the contact and draw a ruler to that position on the map. My conversion method is as follows (Please someone tell me if I am botching something):

using Calculator: 22573 Ft. Divided by 3 to get number of YARDS. THEN I Divide the number of YARDS by 2000 to get the amount of NAUTICAL MILES to determine how far to draw the ruler. It happens that the answer to that is 3.8 roughly. SO

-I draw my ruler to 3.8 Nm on the map in the direction of the contact from my ship and mark the spot.

2. Now, I wait about 3 minutes using the stop watch and repeat the process...ask WO for range..he gives it in ft..so I divide by 3 and then divide that result by 2000. I use the ruler to mark the second plot on the navmap in nm using that result. NOW:

3. I measure the distance between those two marks and get a speed...last time it was 10 knots. the distance was .5 nm in 3 minutes....If i converted right, that means that the target was traveling 10 knots--because 1000 yards in .5nm divided by 100=10. So this is where my first problem comes into play....

4. I submerge the ship to get in closer and start using the PK. I keep PK off until I think I have an accurate solution btw. So I:

a. ID the ship and put it into the PK
b. I use the stadimeter to find an initial range and input it into the pk
c. I measure the AOB by eye at first and then check it to see if it lines up
with the course i plotted on the map and then punch it into the pk

---I TURN PK ON NOW----is this correct?

d. I wait 10 or so secs and then take another range reading with the
stadimeter...punch it in...and then I run into problems
***** e. I press estimate speed button...and then I get a speed which is NOT what
I calculated on the map...it is usually double half or more than 3 knots
difference from what I plotted on the map. This has happened
consistently and I cannot figure where I am going wrong.
Another thing I remembered...I also ask the sonar man for info and he said the target was moving "slow". How accurate is this? because the estimate speed was anywhere between 7-9 knots..and my plotted speed for the target was 10. If the plotted speed was off..it leads me to believe the WO range callouts are not accurate...unless I messed the conversion up.

So I have tried inputting both the speed I get from my plots on the map. and the speed I get from the estimate..even tried an average once....still managed to miss....maybe I was unlucky or botched a previous measurement..but I was never this bad before...so thats why I am laying out my procedure.

Another problem is that by the time I get a decent solution (or so I think) there is never enough time to check it and double check it...because the ship is already in a position to fire and if I do all this re-checking I will lose the ship's optimal firing angle. This is particularly a problem when submerged (esp at night) when I have to get close to ID and get range and therefore do not have alot of time to recheck things.

Can someone please tell me if I am doing something wrong in conversions or setting up attacks? I am trying to line up my boat to approach well and be within 1 nm at 90 AOB or so. It's driving me nuts..since I was fine with manual TDC before Patch 1.3. I almost wonder if either my nomograph is incorrectly laid out...or the Watch Officer's range callouts are not accurate possibly...can anyone confirm? Thanks all.

[tedhealy]

I used to go through things like that, now I just go by the seat of my pants using the TDC. No nomograph needed.

ID the target.
Turn on PK.
Estimate speed.
Estimate AOB.
Set range.

wait at least 60 seconds and compare the TDC's computed bearing to the actual bearing and update info if needed. If the bearings are the same still, the solution is pretty good. If they are not the same, your solution is off.

You should have an idea if your TDC computed solution has the target too fast or too slow. If you estimated too much speed, the actual bearing will lag behind the TDC computed bearing. If you estimated too slow, the actual bearing will be out ahead of the TDC computed bearing. Adjust your speed estimate accordingly re-enter info if needed. AOB could throw things off if you get it terribly wrong, but AOB shouldn't be that hard to estimate with practice.

Keep checking to make sure the actual bearing and computed bearing are the same. I usually check every 3 minutes on an approach from long distance. If you are going to shoot from close range, you only need the 2 bearings to hold for less than a minute, whatever the running time of the torpedo is.

Out of habit, for a backup to my seat of the pants method, and because I like doing it, I mark the target on the map too. I just use the bearing and range info gathered from the stadimeter. You need the 360 degree bearing tool mod and you can plot the target very easily. Now if my seat of the pants method isn't working, I'll rework my info from the map to see where I'm going wrong.

I don't even try to mess with the watch officer's ranges in feet.

[supposedtobeworking]

thanks ted for your answer....but it happened again!! I just very meticulously set up a firing solution and calculated the speed and range very carefully. It was night and I only found one torpedo which went off in front of the bow out of four that missed on a small spread. The funny thing is that this time...the estimated speed from the crew and my calculated speed from the map were exactly the same....8knts. upon checking the estimate again...the crew changed their mind and told me 6 knts...???? Then they kept ctelling me 6 knts when checking the estimate again later...I'm still totally lost at where I am going wrong. Maybe the WO ranges are off? Also the PK seems to change the targets course sometimes when I input a new range...and I changed it back to the correct course. I am just really confused right now and I need a puppy to hold.

I guess now I am just going to say the hell with plotting it on the map and just do it by eye...but its ashame I really don't get what I am doing wrong...


ok.....right after i posted this and went back to my computer...two airplanes attacked me with bombs and sunk me again....this is the exact same thing that happened before...I am beginning to think that ptch 1.3 and me don't get along very well...
on a slightly humorous note..the two planes right after bombing me totally exploded and fell into the water...they were close...could it be that they ran into each other and had a midair collision?? Flak gun was not manned and they just exploded out of nowhere...bug??

[tedhealy]

I understand your frustration at the speed the crew is telling you and the WO weird range in feet, but it's very easy to know who is right with the TDC.

If you set 6 knots and the speed is really 8, the TDC's computed bearing will lag behind the actual bearing. If you set it at 8 knots and the speed is really 6, you'll see the computed bearing increasing over the actual bearing. If you set it at 8 and it really is 8, the computed bearing and the actual bearing will hold pretty steady barring any major AOB mistakes.

If you have lots of time on your setup, you should never be in doubt if you have a solution that will hit at ranges under 1500 yards, barring any last second target course changes and faulty torpedoes. You will know because you will have watched your TDC's bearing vs the real bearing. Now if for whatever reason you have to take a quick shot and haven't been able to study your target, then that's where the experience at estimating these things helps because you probably won't have enough time to watch the TDC bearing vs actual bearing to determine how good your solution is.

An example, you are heading due north 000. Target is off at 330 relative and heading due east - so it's going from left to right across your screen. You input all your info and watch your TDC's computed bearing (by mousing over the dial, a tooltip will pop up telling you the computed bearing), now if that computed bearing gets to 335 while the actual bearing to the ship is only at 332, then you know you have overestimated the target's speed. The TDC thinks the ship is going faster than it is. Reduce your speed estimate and re-check the computed vs actual bearing after a period of time. The one thing you need to watch out for when doing this though is sometimes your AOB can get out of whack and you need to set it again.

[supposedtobeworking]

ok i think you may be giving me back some of my old confidence...i remember reading about checking the bearings and I have not put alot of attention into doing that. I will try that next time. thanks.

[maerean_m]

You have it all here http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=593850&postcount=7

[Xelif]

Here's a simple solution:

Turn on Map Contacts temporarily. Don't use the information provided on the map, but calculate your solution as normal. Before firing, go to the attack map (button under the navigation area) and compare the PK plot (a white X with a line) with the target's actual plot. They should superimpose nearly exactly. If they don't, you know you are doing something wrong and can figure it out.

Also, I feel that using the watch officer's range estimate is entirely unrealistic :D Not a chance he can find range like that when you don't have enough of a visual to calculate range to the nearest thousand yards using the usual optical ranging method after identifying :hmm: (edit) Heh, I can't even identify the target at over about 4000 yards!

Looks like your first problem with the calculated speed being way off was because you only let 10 seconds elapse between range measurements, then asked for a speed estimate. I've done the calculations by hand, and the time you leave in between the measurements is -essential-. It needs to be over a minute if you want any faith in the results, and three minutes (in a nice slow approach) would be guarenteed accurate, as long as the ranging estimates are accurate.

[supposedtobeworking]

How do you get a fix on the targets course from far away without plotting it on the map then? (thats why i start using the WO range callouts since the stadimeter is virtually useless at long range). Just by eye? How do you know if you are getting too close and need to submerge to avoid detection?
btw, I did wait 3 minutes to calculate speed on the attack map using the callouts from the WO. I took multiple plots as well at 3 minute intervals. I've been a manual TDC man for quite some time which is why I am flustered by recent failed attacks in 1.3. In SH3 I used alot of math and apparently the metric system is more easy to work with...I scored hits all the time. In SH4 it seems like many people do much better using the PK only and guesstimating solutions by eye instead of working anything on the navmap. I enjoy drawing it all out on the map, but it is proving to be worthless for some reason (I think it has to do with the counter-intuitive imperial system), so I am going to try just using the peri and PK and see if I can hit anything that way.

I will also try turning no map updates off and compare my results...thanks for the tip.

[Joe S]

I have a question, how do you ask the WO for a range estimate? Thanks! Joe S

[supposedtobeworking]

You first need to have a program called Keychecker which I downloaded from the mods list in the SH3 Mod forum.

go to commands.cfg and edit it....find the Watch Officer section. Ctrl-F and search on "Nearest visual Contact" or "Nearest Target" and you should find the command for it under the Watch Officer category. It is pretty obvious though I cannot recall the exact name right now. then use Keychecker and type whatever key you want to use for it...I use numpad 5 and there is no conflicts. Then click "copy to clipboard" in the keychecker program and then click under the order in the commands.cfg file you have open. Paste the info you copied from Keychecker under the "report nearest visual contact" section all the way at the bottom--it should be the last line of info under that order. save the file and try it out in sh4. I'm dealing with some RL stuff right now, but if I have time sometime soon I'll ttry to find the specifics, but this should give you enough info to try it and it should work with a little effort.

[Xelif]

I approach the standard way - close on the target, ahead of their rough course, and when you can actually see them (3 to 4 nautical miles, often times less), it's probably a good idea to submerge. At this point I rarely can make an identification with any confidence, so I keep closing. As a sub has a lot lower profile, by the time you physically see them, they are almost guarenteed not to have seen you yet. Plus, once you blow a surface approach, remember the range you were at. By "blow a surface approach", I mean chug along chasing the target until you notice it start zig-zagging. Boom, they spotted you!

You -can't- plot targets on the map without having an accurate range estimate. This means you have to close just like every other skipper in the world. Long range engagements are not common :) I usually identify targets via periscope, not sitting on the surface. Like you said, they'll spot you surfaced if you get too close.

As a workaround, the US Navy developed something you will come to love - sonar :D Just send out a few active pings from the sonar station, assuming a destroyer isn't around, and take the average of the ranges they yield (I've noticed a 200-400 yard variance in the range shown on the sonar 'dial') No visual ranging or identifying needed if you choose to use sonar ranging. (edit) Ah, shooting from sonar without practice or a tutorial is difficult, so I would not try it using sonar exclusively, just use it as a ranging aid.

What range are you firing at?

Also, have you tried with map contacts enabled, then comparing your PK plot with the real target plot on the map, as I suggested? That'll quickly point out where you are going wrong in your solution. Once I got incredibly frustrated at a complete inability to hit a target - turns out I'd mis-identified a medium ship as a small ship and was ranging it at a good nautical mile closer than it actually was.

[Powerthighs]

I've been having trouble with the increased visual detection ranges in 1.3. In cases where you are approaching a target without prior knowledge of its course, and you are approaching from the side or back, it seems they see you not long after you see them.

It seems like if you do an end-around it can't be within range where you can see them. So, how do you nail down the course of the target well enough to do an end-around when you are not in front of them and you can't get close enough on the surface?

[supposedtobeworking]

Ditto what he said above! That is my same question...how do you estimate course from long range? Just by eye (I know you can also use sonar for range and bearing). What if it is a convoy? its just by eye then right? that sucks...lots of trial and error I would assume..is there no better way? Any method?

I have been doing better now, but I do not use the map anymore because of wernersobe's suggestion..just the pk tools and i estimate AOB visually and get a speed estimate...I enjoy working things out on the map and miss it, but I also like exploding ships.

[Xelif]

Yeah, that AOB trick is really handy.

I usually get a hydrophone reading while surfaced, oddly enough. I track them beyond sight range using that, which is, well, somewhat unrealistic. Radar should show enemy ships also, later in the game, but I am not familiar with it. A lot of the time I get results from the 'intel' reports on single ships, which give a reasonable approximation of course.

I haven't noticed the increased sight range, probably because I do most of my approaches underwater. If my sonarman wasn't so hilariously brilliant at finding hydrophone contacts while surfaced at 10 kts, it might be harder....

Submerge periodically to listen for contacts as in SH3, you can usually judge at least in which direction the contact is moving by how the sound shifts bearing.

I realize you guys probably know most of this, but hopefully something is useful :ping:

[supposedtobeworking]

it all helps xenif...thanks. btw what angle of the bow trick? aspect ratio?

[switch.dota]

At long range for single contacts use active sonar at periscope depth. You can get really good range estimates. Just make sure you ping at least 5 times and average out the results. If you have time and patience do it 10 times. Focus on the bearing the propellers are heard loudest to have a point of refence. Keep pinging 10 times in a row. Plot. Repeat after one minute. Remember to readjust the bearing on the loudest sound of the screws. After a few such plots you should have a pretty accurate course & speed estimation, tho you need to do it manually.

Otherwise use radar with 5 minutes in between plots (radar contacts I usually plot with 1km circles instead of single marks). You'll have a pretty high error but nothing a final approach correction using active sonar can't fix.

The AoB is easy to find if you know the target's course. Just adjust the aob to 90 either side. Now adjust the AoB dial so that the enemy ship dial on the PK (left side, top dial) is pointing exactly at the target's course. I.e. if the target's course is 60, the enemy ship dial should point at 60 degrees. That pretty much saves you from ever needing to guesstimate AoB.

[supposedtobeworking]

I am checking my bearings with the peri and comparing to the PK bearing to target and it seems to be helping. The only thing is when I score the first hit, the data changes and the ship starts manuevering and changing speed if not sunk. It takes me some time to reset up and recollect the data for a new solution...is there a quick way people deal with these situations to finish off the wounded target as fast as possible? Esp if the target can still go faster than me being submerged and limited in my top speed.

[Xelif]

Yeah. Fire more than one torpedo! :p

There's no salvo option, but it's pretty easy to fire multiple torpedoes. Without a mod, just change the salvo angle on the PK, then fire another torpedo. At close range I often fire 3 torpedoes, one at 1 degree right, one dead center, and one at 1 degree left. Opening the tubes before you fire helps a bit too (Q key).

The AOB trick is WernerSobe's trick of matching the PK target angle with the AOB indicator on board - his explanation made a bit more sense.