Isn't the EU supposed to stand up for it members?

[SUBMAN1]

How can the EU survive if there is no comradery?

-S

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2698287,00.html

[dean_acheson]

oh my....

[XabbaRus]

Good they should stay out of it. But hey what do you expect. The EU sticks its nose in when it doesn't need.

[Skybird]

Russia has something that the EU wants, needs, but does not have: energy ressources. And being the EU does not give it the right to demand the Russians to violate their own constitution. If the gas and oil is not being sold to Europe, then the Russians will sell it to India and China - big deal. So, who has the longer breath in this, the EU or Russia?

It's a crime story, somebody was murdered, the order probably came from a state, and the likely Russian assassin is unlikely to be brought to a British court. Story told, close the book, next please.

Russia is in the stronger position in this, legally, and politically. and after all, Russia, and Europe are not really the same kind of cultures, but two separate and different ones, the one subscribing to the idea of unlimited liberalism and tolerance, the other to a more authoritarian governing style - and a majority of their people seem to like it there. The failed expectations on both sides to achieve a more far-leading friendship between both cultures is one reason why this showdown is slowly growing out of proportions. Putin is disappointed that his invitations for closer cooperations and working together have been rejected, last time concerning the ABM system, and Europe is dissappointed that the Russian "democracy" does not follow demands to be run like the europeans do with theirs. After all, it still remains to be two cultures, not one.

Looking at what is happening in and to Europe, I cannot blame the Russians for rejecting Western models. I mean I also would not jump out of the window, or mutilate my brain by self-inflicted brain-surgery just because I see somebody else doing it. It is clever to refuse to follow that example.

[waste gate]

Its all very confusing. Just last month there was a summit of EU nations to unite the nations. This month a diplomatic row occurs and unity is thrown out the window. What will happen when something really serious arises?

[SUBMAN1]

Its all very confusing. Just last month there was a summit of EU nations to unite the nations. This month a diplomatic row occurs and unity is thrown out the window. What will happen when something really serious arises?

Have to rely upon NATO once more.

[Happy Times]

How can the EU survive if there is no comradery?

-S

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2698287,00.html

Yes, welcome aboard in to the same boat.:lol: Its true EU is allways saying it will act united but Russia is very good in dividing the union. The main reason is the energy card. Especially Germany and Italy have become too dependent of Russia. Some Portugese or Spaniards just dont care. When the Estonian statue crisis was going down Germans were silent untill Finland send our foreign minister to explain severity of the issue. But you have France on your side, thats really something. I can name the other countries that back you up with 100%. Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czech, Hungary. Dont know about Netherland and Belgium. So you are not alone but the big countries are divided on Russia.;)

[Skybird]

When you have 27 egoist factions in one boat, the one thing you should not expect with regard to costly issues is - unity. Too many cooks in the kitchen.

And again, russia is in the stronger psoition here, and rightfully can point to legal arguments. Since when can we expect them to brake their own laws and constitution, just because the wonderful EU choses to ignore the one as well as the other? Would your country hand over a suspect to the court in another country simply because the latter demands it? It is not given in case of Germany. It is not automatic in Britain. I am not aware of all laws in the diffrent Western nations, but I think there are quite some who also would not do it. However, there is the European extradition treaty of 1957, and this includes the important article 6:


Article 6 – Extradition of nationals


A Contracting Party shall have the right to refuse extradition of its nationals.
Each Contracting Party may, by a declaration made at the time of signature or of deposit of its instrument of ratification or accession, define as far as it is concerned the term "nationals" within the meaning of this Convention.
Nationality shall be determined as at the time of the decision concerning extradition. If, however, the person claimed is first recognised as a national of the requested Party during the period between the time of the decision and the time contemplated for the surrender, the requested Party may avail itself of the provision contained in sub-paragraph a of this article.
If the requested Party does not extradite its national, it shall at the request of the requesting Party submit the case to its competent authorities in order that proceedings may be taken if they are considered appropriate. For this purpose, the files, information and exhibits relating to the offence shall be transmitted without charge by the means provided for in Article 12, paragraph 1. The requesting Party shall be informed of the result of its request.The Russians commented on this in March 2000:

"With respect to sub-paragraph "a" of paragraph 1 of Article 6 of the Convention the Russian Federation declares that in accordance with Article 61 (part I) of the Constitution of the Russian Federation a citizen of the Russian Federation may not be extradited to another State."


End of story, period. Neither do the russians act illegally, nor do they brake an international laws and treaties, nor is their position surprisng in any way. They firmly stand on solid ground covered by their constitution as well as international treaties. They even acted logically when offering to trial the suspect at a Russian court - which Britain denied.

the whole case has far-leading political implications by including names like Berezowsky and Lugowoj, regarding a possible enforcing of a third term for Putin (some mighty people came to power only because of him and when he leaves office, they will fall soon), and intel conspiracies both on russian and British side. But that is a whole thread and essay for itself :) Nobody of us here should be convinced to know all about it, and we never will know it all. But that is one more reason to wage the debate with more objective and matter-of-factness, instead of subscribing to blindly accuse Russia and start a badly informed propaganda-war against them. they simly have laws and treaties on their side, and they are in the stronger position if europe would try to intimidate them. All we achieve by this is that we feed their already strong suspicions against us - and if that really is in anyone's interest is an issue that should be thought over twice. the globe revolves neither around the EU, nor Britain, and what British media produced in propaganda and fallacy on this case is saying more about Britain, than about Russia.

[Konovalov]

When you have 27 egoist factions in one boat, the one thing you should not expect with regard to costly issues is - unity. Too many cooks in the kitchen.

And again, russia is in the stronger psoition here, and rightfully can point to legal arguments. Since when can we expect them to brake their own laws and constitution, just because the wonderful EU choses to ignore the one as well as the other? Would your country hand over a suspect to the court in another country simply because the latter demands it? It is not given in case of Germany. It is not automatic in Britain. I am not aware of all laws in the diffrent Western nations, but I think there are quite some who also would not do it. However, there is the European extradition treaty of 1957, and this includes the important article 6:


Article 6 – Extradition of nationals


A Contracting Party shall have the right to refuse extradition of its nationals.
Each Contracting Party may, by a declaration made at the time of signature or of deposit of its instrument of ratification or accession, define as far as it is concerned the term "nationals" within the meaning of this Convention.
Nationality shall be determined as at the time of the decision concerning extradition. If, however, the person claimed is first recognised as a national of the requested Party during the period between the time of the decision and the time contemplated for the surrender, the requested Party may avail itself of the provision contained in sub-paragraph a of this article.
If the requested Party does not extradite its national, it shall at the request of the requesting Party submit the case to its competent authorities in order that proceedings may be taken if they are considered appropriate. For this purpose, the files, information and exhibits relating to the offence shall be transmitted without charge by the means provided for in Article 12, paragraph 1. The requesting Party shall be informed of the result of its request.The Russians commented on this in March 2000:

"With respect to sub-paragraph "a" of paragraph 1 of Article 6 of the Convention the Russian Federation declares that in accordance with Article 61 (part I) of the Constitution of the Russian Federation a citizen of the Russian Federation may not be extradited to another State."


End of story, period. Neither do the russians act illegally, nor do they brake an international laws and treaties, nor is their position surprisng in any way. They firmly stand on solid ground covered by their constitution as well as international treaties. They even acted logically when offering to trial the suspect at a Russian court - which Britain denied.

the whole case has far-leading political implications by including names like Berezowsky and Lugowoj, regarding a possible enforcing of a third term for Putin (some mighty people came to power only because of him and when he leaves office, they will fall soon), and intel conspiracies both on russian and British side. But that is a whole thread and essay for itself :) Nobody of us here should be convinced to know all about it, and we never will know it all. But that is one more reason to wage the debate with more objective and matter-of-factness, instead of subscribing to blindly accuse Russia and start a badly informed propaganda-war against them. they simly have laws and treaties on their side, and they are in the stronger position if europe would try to intimidate them. All we achieve by this is that we feed their already strong suspicions against us - and if that really is in anyone's interest is an issue that should be thought over twice.

Absolutely. :yep: In effect Britain and it's allies are asking Russia to breach it's own constitution while at the same time Russia is expected to move forward on the path of democratic reform. :-? Quite frankly it looks silly.

[Happy Times]

But lets remember that the whole crisis started with the russians poisoning of a british citizen and endangering the lifes of hundreds of other people. Should the British goverment be silent? Just because the Germans have a gas pipe deep up their ass.:dead:

[Skybird]

Nobody denies a crime has taken place. So far we have suspects only, no proven guilty ones. that's why a suspect is brought to court, remember? To prove he's innocent or guilty. that background of the Litwinenko murdering I still regard as - not "clear", to put it that way. We probably will never know the true story behind it. we only have reason to assume that figures inside the russian state are behind it (the expensive way of killing the man) - or that this method to murder him was deliberaty chosen to put the examiners off a scent. The issue is damaging for Putin'S respectability in western opinion, which is a formidable motive, and he surely has made himself not only friends, but enemies in russia as well. I still wonder if the two Russian bombers reaching as far as Scotland recently were ordered by the Russian government - or a powerful rebellious elite hiding inside the military. the official retaliation for the diplomats expelled by Britain meanwhile has arrived: the russians y expelled four British diplomats in return, and installed some difficulties to replace them too easily. so why those two flights, then?

The new wealth of Russia has produced new demands to the government in the military elites, and bolsters growing new Russian national pride and calls for being less soft on NATO's expansive policies.

So, you see, the British can become as loud as they want - if they are right is something very different. BTW, Litwinenko had been British for just four weeks - handy timing to become British, eh?

[XabbaRus]

Oh please The Russians the Russians...as if you know for sure it was Putin and his government. That is still a hypothesis only. You can only surmise due to the circumstances. Read up on Litvinenko. Yes he had a position in the FSB that allowed him to be privy for some information but given the way that before his death he was hawking info to anyone who would listen maybe he just pissed of some business people who happen to be connected to the Kremlin.

Why bump him off now? He defected 3 years ago and wrote his book a couple of years before that. It doesn't make sense.

So to sumarise, was he murdered yes, was it on order from Putin, unlikely, could it have been someone else connected to the Kremlin probably. Was it a political killing or a personal one probably connected to business I would vote for that one.

You have to look at motive. bump them off in your own country sure, but in a foreign country in such a cack handed manner knowing the response. Doesn't seem rational to me, and Puting strikes me as very rational.

Oh and Happy Times Litvinenko had only just become a British citizen so stop referring to it as if he had been one of long standing.

Sky is right, the EU and the UK is asking Russia to break its own laws but would they do the same if asked by other countries, or is it ok to ask Russia to do it because it is big bad Russia so thats fine? It seems to me UK is chucking a hissy fit because Russia won't break its own laws and it doesn't suit the UK.

[Happy Times]

Oh please The Russians the Russians...as if you know for sure it was Putin and his government. That is still a hypothesis only. You can only surmise due to the circumstances. Read up on Litvinenko. Yes he had a position in the FSB that allowed him to be privy for some information but given the way that before his death he was hawking info to anyone who would listen maybe he just pissed of some business people who happen to be connected to the Kremlin.

Why bump him off now? He defected 3 years ago and wrote his book a couple of years before that. It doesn't make sense.

So to sumarise, was he murdered yes, was it on order from Putin, unlikely, could it have been someone else connected to the Kremlin probably. Was it a political killing or a personal one probably connected to business I would vote for that one.

You have to look at motive. bump them off in your own country sure, but in a foreign country in such a cack handed manner knowing the response. Doesn't seem rational to me, and Puting strikes me as very rational.

Oh and Happy Times Litvinenko had only just become a British citizen so stop referring to it as if he had been one of long standing.

Sky is right, the EU and the UK is asking Russia to break its own laws but would they do the same if asked by other countries, or is it ok to ask Russia to do it because it is big bad Russia so thats fine? It seems to me UK is chucking a hissy fit because Russia won't break its own laws and it doesn't suit the UK.

Yes, poor Russians again, they get picked on again. Give me a brake. Do you care that hudreds of Brits were exposed to this highly lethal poison? Polonium isnt something you can buy from the street. It goes to the high up and if it isnt Putin why doesnt he arrest someone? If someone did the same in Russia they wouldnt get a fit?

[Skybird]

You know, Happy Times, you really should get SBP, board a tank and teach them what Finnish muscle is! Let some unstoppable arguments fly, helps to cool down your emotions while heating up theirs. there are two guys who have even made dedicated realistic Finnish camouflage patterns with Finnish national emblems for the Leopards, T72s and BMPs the Finnish forces are operating! And some time in the future, the T72 will be fully crewable for the player, too.

You could also use existing realistic skins for Russian vehicles to mark them with Russian, Soviet or East-German national emblems. Let's vent!

[XabbaRus]

Please Happy, oh and by the way it is break not brake.

Yes Russia does get picked on, always the bad boy and people are surprised when they respond to type.

I'm not saying no one in the Kremlin had anything to do with it, what I have a problem with is the UK govt's hypocrisy, they UK press presenting hypothesis as fact and the complete over exagerration in the press.

I do believe Putin had nothing to do with it, I do believe that Berezovsky has a role in the greater than it seems, I don't doubt that some people in the FSB could have decided to bump him off, a vendetta. It just so happens it suits Putin to have him gone.

Please Happy tell me why Putin would want Litvinenko dead and order such a clumsy way of doing it.

[The Avon Lady]

Please Happy tell me why Putin would want Litvinenko dead and order such a clumsy way of doing it.
Silent partner control of the movie rights (http://www.hecklerspray.com/johnny-depp-to-make-crazy-poisoned-russian-spy-flick/20076530.php)! :|\\

[Happy Times]

Please Happy tell me why Putin would want Litvinenko dead and order such a clumsy way of doing it.

He was a traitor and to make a point?
So it suits Putin but he wasnt behind it?
Some rogue elements in FSB?
Wait, wasnt Putin the head of FSB before he came president?
So i should believe the Kreml version that it is Berezovsky behind it? :roll:
Il go with Scotland Yard this time, the ones that warned Berezovsky of an other hitman.

[Tchocky]

Thread title reminds me of the RN sailors in Iran.
It is a bilateral issue, the EU doesn't need to be involved right now. It's between Russia and the UK. I don't think it would help for the EU to weigh in on either side.

[XabbaRus]

Funny how this information crept out at this time. Funny how it was broken to the news by Berezovsky and his chums.

Litvinenko defected years ago. So why make the point now?
Putin was head of the FSB before he was president and your point is?

Bush Senior was head of the CIA before he became president, oh but I forgot that's America and she's a democracy so the CIA never bumped people off for political reasons.

[Happy Times]

Funny how this information crept out at this time. Funny how it was broken to the news by Berezovsky and his chums.

Litvinenko defected years ago. So why make the point now?
Putin was head of the FSB before he was president and your point is?

Bush Senior was head of the CIA before he became president, oh but I forgot that's America and she's a democracy so the CIA never bumped people off for political reasons.

So the British intelligence and police are played by Berezovsky, yeah right.
I dont know why now, thats why it would be good to get Lugovoi in court..
Little OT but compared to Russia, USA really is a beacon of hope.

[sergbuto]

In effect Britain and it's allies are asking Russia to breach it's own constitution while at the same time Russia is expected to move forward on the path of democratic reform. :-? Quite frankly it looks silly.
It is silly. Brits actually expect Russia to cooperate on the case after they "insalted" Russia a few times before by not letting to prosecure Russian suspects which live in UK. Berezovsky planned and organized murders of a number of Russians back in 90s but he is a legitimate businessman in UK now. One can kill as many Russians as he wants and as long as he invests money in UK that is okay.

I guess UK also expects a law adjustment in Brazil. It should be tolerable to do finansional crimes in Brazil for those who live in UK. :rotfl: What other way can they defend Berezovsky this time? :rotfl:

[Skybird]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/22/npoison322.xml

No-one has ever been extradited either way between the UK and Russia and it is unlikely, given the current political climate, that anyone will be in the foreseeable future.
However, legal mechanisms exist, at least on paper, to allow individuals to be extradited.

Russia has, in fact, made 17 failed extradition requests to the UK since 2001, according to the Home Office.
The most notable of these requests related to Boris Berezovsky, the wealthy oligarch and arch-opponent of President Putin.
A British court threw out the Russian extradition claim.
The UK has made one request to Russia, for an individual who the Home Office declined to identify, but British prosecutors failed to establish “dual criminality” - that the offence existed in both criminal codes.