Goodbye, Holland!

[The Avon Lady]

One down (http://dutchconcerns.blogspot.com/2007/07/bad-news-from-holland.html).

Who's next? :hmm:

[Tchocky]

Democracy leads to socialism and socialism leads to the tiranny of the majority.

Hello Albania.

[bradclark1]

Is 14 July the new April Fools? I have a time believing someone could seriously come up with that.

[The Avon Lady]

Democracy leads to socialism and socialism leads to the tiranny of the majority.

Hello Albania.
Why, what ever do you mean (http://www.serbianna.com/photo_2007/0114.html)?
Is 14 July the new April Fools? I have a time believing someone could seriously come up with that.
There's a fool for every day of the year.

[Yahoshua]

Is the world still spinning clockwise or has it started spinning top-to-bottom now?

[The Avon Lady]

Is the world still spinning clockwise or has it started spinning top-to-bottom now?
Still clockwise but working in the future on revolving on a different spin (http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1349).

[HunterICX]

One down (http://dutchconcerns.blogspot.com/2007/07/bad-news-from-holland.html).

Who's next? :hmm:

OLD NEWS!:smug:
I knew this 6 years ago.
why else do you think I live in spain :lol:
to get rid of the Left wing bull**** we have in our country and allowing immigrants everything they want and the dutch people have to deal with it and shut up.

[The Avon Lady]

why else do you think I live in spain :lol:
Never-ending job (http://www.elperiodico.com/default.asp?idpublicacio_PK=46&idioma=CAS&idnoticia_PK=377211&idseccio_PK=1008).

[Tchocky]

tiranny....tirana

yawn

[The Avon Lady]

tiranny....tirana

yawn
Yes. Sleep, Europe, sleep (http://www.amazon.com/While-Europe-Slept-Radical-Destroying/dp/0385514727/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-5368013-8401409?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184517122&sr=1-2).

[Tchocky]

Don't wake me until it's too late to do anything.

[The Avon Lady]

Don't wake me until it's too late to do anything.
Thanks for taking our survey (http://www.just-international.org/article.cfm?newsid=20002389)!

And you folks in England can sleep in late tomorrow, too, 'cause school's out (http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/13304)!

Good luck, Britain!

[Tchocky]

So...many people see Islam as peaceful. Could this be because of the large numbers of Muslims in Britain who aren't firebombing airports? Maybe.
aaaand said attack harmed the image of islam in Britain. Quelle surprise.

Ooh, the Sunday Express. I want to read that.

[joea]

This is a pure troll thread. Same old same old. :shifty:

[Konovalov]

This is a pure troll thread. Same old same old. :shifty:

I agree.

[The Avon Lady]

So...many people see Islam as peaceful. Could this be because of the large numbers of Muslims in Britain who aren't firebombing airports? Maybe.
Sleep some more, Brits (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/016577.php).
Ooh, the Sunday Express. I want to read that.
Happy now (http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6890000/newsid_6898400/6898457.stm?bw=nb&mp=wm)? You can't make this stuff up. :nope:

Head.

In.

Sand.

:yep:

[The Avon Lady]

This is a pure troll thread. Same old same old. :shifty:

I agree.
Suprise!

Not. :nope:

Actually the one that is trolling here is you. Don't think too hard about it.

[Tchocky]

So...many people see Islam as peaceful. Could this be because of the large numbers of Muslims in Britain who aren't firebombing airports? Maybe. Sleep some more, Brits (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/016577.php).It's hard to fall asleep with my head stuck in the sand. Can't I use some sort of sand-pillow? I promise I won't listen to reason!

Ooh, the Sunday Express. I want to read that. Happy now (http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6890000/newsid_6898400/6898457.stm?bw=nb&mp=wm)? You can't make this stuff up. :nope: Yeah, you can't make that story up because it's a parade of "Churchill was great, innit?". Take a look at the new curriculum, it's freeing up time in the school day to allow teachers to be more flexible in how they run classes. Sounds good to me. Of course, if you're going to run straight to the tabloid press on stuff like this, go right ahead.
Head. In. Same old same old.

Actually, here's (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6897426.stm) a bit of analysis on the changes. The picture might be enough to draw you in.

[The Avon Lady]

Actually, here's (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6897426.stm) a bit of analysis on the changes. The picture might be enough to draw you in.
Drool. Drool. :88)

Nice analysis yet even the writer is overly indecisive. But I just have to laugh at cookery, financial capability, and personal well-being, let alone global warming. Sorry, I've seen similar pathetic attempts at offering up such soft curriculums. One doesn't have to be a minister of education to anticipate the long term results. This is a sad dumbing down of education.

Interesting subject on its own, BTW. Why don't you start a separate thread about it? :yep:

[The Avon Lady]

So...many people see Islam as peaceful. Could this be because of the large numbers of Muslims in Britain who aren't firebombing airports? Maybe.
Time to look a gifthorse in the mouth. Click on pic for news story:

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/1152/trojanhorsenn6.jpg (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/15/nterr215.xml)

But, yes, it's most probably not in Counterpunch or the Guardian, so you can go back to sleep. Sorry to disturb your tranquill thoughts. Facts are annoying like that. Nighty-night!

[Tchocky]

I suppose I'm not bothered to start a thread on it. It's displeasing to see misrepresentation in what's purported to be a proper newspaper. Why'd you bring it up anyway? I'm sure it would be easy to find a balanced, sober story on the subject. Same as the BBC interviews. I think we all know who Churchill was.

But, yes, it's most probably not in Counterpunch or the Guardian, so you can go back to sleep. Sorry to disturb your tranquill thoughts. Facts are annoying like that. Nighty-night!
Nah, the Guardian is leading with AQ recruitment in prisons and a column calling for a just war against murderers. http://www.guardian.co.uk/
Ho, that one didn't work! Have another try.

Why do you think this would disturb me? Crazy people do crazy things, such as bombings etc. I'm not surprised that people who declare the West to be their enemy end up attacking it. I am surprised that so many got through, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it (Just my head/life etc). My tranquil thoughts are going quite nicely, cheers.
You've got this lovely attitude that implies that anyone who doesn't agree with you is wilfully ignorant.
I don't know how to match that up with some posts, though. For example linking to rubbish, biased articles, then claiming that I have my head in the sand. That's a bit of a stretch.

[Skybird]

You've got this lovely attitude that implies that anyone who doesn't agree with you is wilfully ignorant.

In what way are you different? After having become the target of your views several times now, I must say your descriptions matches your own acting perfectly. I do not remember how often you have simplified remarks of mine to a degree that made me wonder if you even read more than the first two sentences of what I had written. And how often you have ignored simple reference to unwelcomed news, truths, facts, statistics that cast some shadow of a doubt on your defending of your positions.

Just days ago we had a long debate started by Neal on threads like this. I recommended back then and recommend now to simply leave such threads out. It cannot be that discussions on Islam are considered acceptable as long as, in the name of friendliness, they are referring to it in a distorted and friendly way that hides it's intolerant and unfriendly content, while pointing at these details of it'S nature is considered hatespeech and is always threatened by moderators to get locked. That is an widening of modern PC madness into this forum that really does no honour to this place.

If somebody wants to lock something, then lock Islam-topics altogether, not just those that are critical of Islam. That means to lock political threads too if they touch nations in the middle east, because here, policy and religion cannot be separated. - That way neither lies get told about Islam, nor a fight about pro and contra arguments can erupt, and no personal yelling can take place.

I wonder what is so difficult in doing so. Moderation really needs to make a fundamental, binding decision on this thing. that is no overregulation, and no crippling of freedom of speech - that is simply the pragamatic thing to do, and thus could be understood as being clever.

[PeriscopeDepth]

If somebody wants to lock something, then lock Islam-topics altogether, not just those that are critical of Islam. That means to lock political threads too if they touch nations in the middle east, because here, policy and religion cannot be separated. - That way neither lies get told about Islam, nor a fight about pro and contra arguments can erupt, and no personal yelling can take place.

:yep:

PD

[Takeda Shingen]

If somebody wants to lock something, then lock Islam-topics altogether, not just those that are critical of Islam. That means to lock political threads too if they touch nations in the middle east, because here, policy and religion cannot be separated. - That way neither lies get told about Islam, nor a fight about pro and contra arguments can erupt, and no personal yelling can take place.

Or we would just all grow up and realize that (1) Subsim.com in not an inherently political website, and (2) that self-professed rational adults should refrain from personal attacks and name calling. That just might solve a lot of problems without over-regulation of conduct and topical selection.

I have said it before: The internet has the remarkable effect of taking who would normally be mature and productive members of society and turning them into squabbling children. It becomes more true each day.

[The Avon Lady]

Thank you, Holland, for sending this gem of a woman (http://www.cbc.ca/onthemap/fullpage.php?id=87) in the direction of the United States. Play the video. :up:

[Skybird]

Or we would just all grow up and realize that (1) Subsim.com in not an inherently political website, and (2) that self-professed rational adults should refrain from personal attacks and name calling. That just might solve a lot of problems without over-regulation of conduct and topical selection.

Your educational attitude in all honours - but if it doesn't work, then it doesn't work. And this forum is not the right adress to train people in being better beings anyway.

Laissez-faire can be exaggerated, and it often is. However, the decision I recommended is Neal's responsebility anyway, not that of the mods. It's about changing a detail of board's policies, touching questions of debates on politics and Islam, in this case. You remember our PMs, and how I think on the issue. ;)

[P_Funk]

Time to look a gifthorse in the mouth. Click on pic for news story: That was hardly a decisive article. There are maybe 4000 UK citizens trained, though MI-5 estimated 1600 active. One line says that the vast majority of UK -> Pakistan/Afghanistan travel is legitimate. Says perhaps many opf the trained have given up the idea and moved on to live a real life. But the tantalizing idea is that they're also all maybe in hiding....

Point is that its not overwhelming. I can't figure out who the enemy is anymore anyway. Is it al Quaeda? Islam? Terrorists in general? Immigrants that want to turn our countries into religious theocracies? Oh wait... what are the christians bitching about in the US? Oh yea creationism, prayer in schools, gay marriage, 10 commandments in the courts...

I think that the proper caption for that image is 'beware of greeks bearing gifts'.

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/184/jacktx6.gif

[Skybird]

On and on this thread runs - so be it. But I fail to see why such queer statements that - as I see it - attempt to distort Islam should get away with it. Either we have no discussion of Islam altogether - or we allow both sides to comment.

There are maybe 4000 UK citizens trained, though MI-5 estimated 1600 active. One line says that the vast majority of UK -> Pakistan/Afghanistan travel is legitimate. Says perhaps many opf the trained have given up the idea and moved on to live a real life. But the tantalizing idea is that they're also all maybe in hiding....

Forget terrorists. These are not our problem, they are highly overestimated, even if we have a 9/11 every year. If you find them, you can shoot them. But you can't shoot a mass of several millions, growing. The silent undermining of our home culture is what it is all about, the attempt to enforce Islam by "outbreading" European populations. Demographies in the widest sense is the dangerous weapon, not bombs. And Islamic leaders and clerics time and again tell us this in plain words, and do not hide their intention, to overcome european culture by the fertility of their women, and the whole process of mass migration into the west and the growing of Islamic sub-culturs and parallel societies is illustrating that they do in confomrity with what they say.

So why find Westerners it so difficult to simply listen to them and take them by their word...?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6309983.stm

And various:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2244590.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4988900.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6309427.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4131762.stm

the least we could ask for is reciprocity. the freedom Islam has been given in the West - given to Christianity and Judaism and other cultures in Islamic nations as well. But exactly the opposite is happening. Those who always complain about how vulnerable and misunderstood and mistreated muslims are in western societies (where they already doiminate in parts of major cities and make the native european population moving out and getting away) never seem to complain and protest about the massive cultural discrimination, supression and intolerance practiced in Muslim nations. there was no dialogue in the past 40 years - only a foolish western monologue, and bending towards Islam, with Islam not moving a bit, and taking what was given to it - but never giving back in return, on equal terms. and why should it anyway, since it sees that the West is adapting islamic demands more and more, all by itself...?

[The Avon Lady]

the least we could ask for is reciprocity. the freedom Islam has been given in the West - given to Christianity and Judaism and other cultures in Islamic nations as well. But exactly the opposite is happening. Those who always complain about how vulnerable and misunderstood and mistreated muslims are in western societies (where they already doiminate in parts of major cities and make the native european population moving out and getting away) never seem to complain and protest about the massive cultural discrimination, supression and intolerance practiced in Muslim nations. there was no dialogue in the past 40 years - only a foolish western monologue, and bending towards Islam, with Islam not moving a bit, and taking what was given to it - but never giving back in return, on equal terms. and why should it anyway, since it sees that the West is adapting islamic demands more and more, all by itself...?
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/7442/onewaysw9.jpg

[baggygreen]

I concur with AL and skybird on this, and i dont even live anywhere near europe!

As i see it, islam as a whole takes and takes, but offers little. I'll give you a broad example. A westerner travels to a predominantly islamic country like... Indonesia, bali to be precise. Beach paradise, with lovely locals (especially when you speak the language) and magnificent weather. But, with the exception of a few spots on the island, women (and men) are asked to respect islamic culture and dress modestly. Noone i know has any objections with this, and i know i certainly dont.

My objections arise when islamic tourists travel to western country's, take again as an example, australia in summer (or autumn, winter or spring, cos lets face it, down under rocks all year round!:lol: - but i digress). Said tourists visit sydney's famous manly, bondi or coogee beaches, and are appalled at the lack of modesty shown by both men and women (but more by women). Take things a step further, and have the islamic sheikh of the nation announce (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52630) that women who are scantily clad are inviting rape (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/13/1026185124700.html) the way meat on the street attracts stray and feral cats.

And yet, despite this obvious disparity in the levels of respect for other cultures, the majority of left-leaning westerners seem to think it ok to adjust rules and laws of the west even more to suit the growing presence of islam. the bottom line, as far as im concerned, is that if you travel or move to a new place, you are accepting the way things are done there, you're not going there then trying to make it just like home! What riles me most is that the more moderate muslims as a rule will not come out and vocalise their opposition. Sure, you get a few people every now and again, but where is the rest of the population?!?

Thats my... what, maybe 6 cents :)

[P_Funk]

62% of 16 to 24-year-olds feel they have as much in common with non-Muslims as Muslims, compared with 71% of over-55s


60% of Muslims would prefer to send their children to a mixed state school, compared with 35% who would prefer to send their child to an Islamic school


59% of Muslims would prefer to live under British law, compared with 28% who would prefer to live under Sharia law


Once again I find all that underwhelming. It suggests that it isn't the people as much as the extremists. Or would Skybird instead post a poll he doens't believe in.

Now that is me rejecting the assertion that all Islam is the threat. I'm not saying I'm closed ot the idea but think of it like I'm still not beyond a reasonable doubt. But on the other hand by all means do not hand over our culture and tradition to the immigrants or the religions. If our laws function as they were meant to then it isn't an issue. We shouldn't conform to other cultures within our own borders, just respect. Thats the difference. Fears of democratic subversion are easily ended if we treat the issue correctly. its obvious that every muslim isn't about to start a jihad against their own countrymen. Just don't make it easy to conform our society to their views. Its just like telling the christians off.

[Skybird]

Nice job, P_Funk. :nope: If one were deaf, blind and dumb, one would even believe it. Okay, for all that cannot read in context, the full quote:

Key findings from a survey by the centre-right think tank, Policy Exchange, of more than 1,000 Muslims living across the UK.

RELIGION

86% of Muslims feel that religion is the most important thing in their life
36% of 16 to 24-year-olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, compared with 19% of over-55sThe often found one third-quota amongst the young ones on questions tpouching the grwoing radicalisationa nd growin orhtodoxy of the third generation in the West, or the group below an age of 25.



62% of 16 to 24-year-olds feel they have as much in common with non-Muslims as Muslims, compared with 71% of over-55s



EDUCATION

60% of Muslims would prefer to send their children to a mixed state school, compared with 35% who would prefer to send their child to an Islamic school
37% of 16 to 24-year-olds would prefer to send their children to Islamic state schools, compared with 19% of over-55sAgain, one third of the young ones tend to favour orthodox solutions.



SHARIA LAW

59% of Muslims would prefer to live under British law, compared with 28% who would prefer to live under Sharia law
37% of 16 to 24-year-olds prefer Sharia compared with 17% of over-55sLIFESTYLE

74% of 16 to 24-year-olds would prefer Muslim women to choose to wear the veil, compared with only 28% of over-55s
21% of Muslims have consumed alcohol
65% have paid interest on a normal mortgage
19% have gambled
9% have admitted to taking drugsFOREIGN POLICY

7% "admire organisations like al-Qaeda that are prepared to fight the West". 13% of 16 to 24-year-olds agreed with this statement compared with 3% of over-55s
41% named foreign policy as an important issue to Muslims but they were not necessarily more informed or engaged than the wider population
58% believe that "many of the problems in the world today are a result of arrogant Western attitudes"CAUSING OFFENCE

37% believe that "one of the benefits of modern society is the freedom to criticise other people's religious or political views, even when it causes offence"So obviously over 60% do not believe so.


28% of Muslims believe that authorities in Britain go over the top in trying not to offend MuslimsIt seems the other 72 percent don't think so and to some degree are even happy with what the British government is doing.




75% believe it was wrong for a council to ban an advertisement for a Christmas carol service in 2003 for fear of causing tension
64% believe it was wrong for a council to ban all images of pigs from its offices, for example on calendars and toys in 2005, for fear of offending MuslimsSUGGESTIONS MADE IN REPORT

Stop emphasising difference and engage with Muslims as citizens, not through their religious identityDifficult in a sertting that does not separate between state, social community and religion, but see it all as just one.



Recognise that the Muslim "community" is not homogenous, and attempts to give group rights or representation will only alienate sections of the population further not homogenous only means: somke are Islamic, and others are not. The Quran does not now different degrees of being Islamic, and what also is oignroed is that the group of the younger ones willing to embrace greater orthodoxy and "radical" islam is growing constantly and since long. that is ture in Europe, referring espoeically to Germany where I know from first hand, as well as for islamic countries wehre I have beeb, especially Turkey (in rural place orhtodxy never was weak - quote the opposite), and in Iran i also saw a growing radicalisation of the young. there are studies making lknks between avergae age of a society, and it'S willingness and/or probablity to wage wars of aggression and, in this context, become engaged in terrorist acts. the younger, the more energy and dynamic the people, the more dynamic, the more expansive, the more expansive the more aggressive. It's like that with most of historical societies we know. That's why I say that until the demographic developements do not turn young Muslim nations into old ones in roughly two generation (50-70 years), islam will remain to be on the global offensive - until it runs out of demographic energy.



Stop treating Muslims as a vulnerable group. The exaggeration of Islamophobia does not make Muslims feel protected but instead reinforces feelings of victimisation and alienationPlus it evades to motivate them to confront their faith with some reasonable, ciritical thinking and asking questions about in a non-circular manner. If they never ask questions about themselves, they will not see the need to chnage themselves, and always will expect that the world will change according to them.


Encourage a broader intellectual debate in order to challenge the crude anti-Western, anti-British ideas that dominate cultural and intellectual life. This means allowing free speech and debate, even when it causes offence to some minority groups

[quote]

Keep a sense of perspective. The obsession of politicians and the media with scrutinising the wider Muslim population, either as victims or potential terrorists, means that Muslims are regarded as outsiders, rather than as members of society like everyone elseBut historically islam is not like anyone else, and it also is no part of European culture, history and identity. Becasue of that native populations are so antipathic against the growin Islamic presence in europe. It is an alien element and very much out of place, since quranic thinking and the tradition of western thinking as it emerged over the past 2000 years is not compatible.

Multi-culturalism does not work, and never has!, in free, liberal societies. It only worked in tyrannies, monarchies, empires and context that used pressure and force to enforce everyone sitting still next place to another ethnicity. Yugoslavia. Soviet Union. The Habsburg Empire and the Danube dynasty. Rome. In a way it is even true for several Arab nations. Iraq. Africa. Where the controlling government dissapeared, multiculturalism did not go away - the parties were in place, and could not simply dissapear aagin. The bursted into real or potential violance instead.

[The Avon Lady]

Time to look a gifthorse in the mouth. Click on pic for news story: That was hardly a decisive article. There are maybe 4000 UK citizens trained, though MI-5 estimated 1600 active.
Read, weep and come to your senses (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/017189.php).

It took 19 people "off the radar" to kill some 3000 people in under one and a half hours, with boxcutters as their weapon of choice. Use your imagination. They certainly are. And they are laughing.

[Skybird]

German language:

http://www.welt.de/politik/article1029746/Kulturen_vermischen_sich_nicht.html

A sociologist's view on why cultures do not really mix, but instead harden their borders when moving together by trade or tourism, and why subcultures forming in a foreign social environment do not really integrate, but grow in independant identity that keeps them separate both from their original culture, and their hosting culture.

Found it by chance a minute ago.

[Skybird]

If I were you, I would not link to jihadwatch.com but to the newspaper they are pointing at, AL. Too many people here go amok just because they see "jihadwatch.com", and do not understand that JW does not create their news, but simply repeat and link to what other news agencies and sources have reported.

[The Avon Lady]

If I were you, I would not link to jihadwatch.com but to the newspaper they are pointing at, AL. Too many people here go amok just because they see "jihadwatch.com", and do not understand that JW does not create their news, but simply repeat and link to what other news agencies and sources have reported.
I'm aware of the JihadWatchPhobes among us. :p

But I will not compromise on the fact that the articles and commentary posted by JW's authors are not phobic nor racist.

Indeed, I have often linked to mass media articles, which is what some 70-80% of the entries at JW do in any case. But I am not ashamed in posting JW links. Quite the contrary. Bless them for their work. Imagine the level of ignorance without them. :nope:

It's time to stop cowering from the truth simply because it makes some people uncomfortable.

UPDATE: sig appropriately updated. :D

[Onkel Neal]

Nice job, P_Funk. :nope: If one were deaf, blind and dumb, one would even believe it.

Condescencion not necessary here. Just present your arguement and try not to belittle his.

58% of Europeans believe that "many of the problems in the world today are a result of arrogant US attitudes"

Fixed!

[Tchocky]

If I were you, I would not link to jihadwatch.com but to the newspaper they are pointing at, AL. Too many people here go amok just because they see "jihadwatch.com", and do not understand that JW does not create their news, but simply repeat and link to what other news agencies and sources have reported.
I wouldn't say anyone goes "amok", but it is better to get the report/story straight up, without JW's editorial frame.

[The Avon Lady]

If I were you, I would not link to jihadwatch.com but to the newspaper they are pointing at, AL. Too many people here go amok just because they see "jihadwatch.com", and do not understand that JW does not create their news, but simply repeat and link to what other news agencies and sources have reported.
I wouldn't say anyone goes "amok", but it is better to get the report/story straight up, without JW's editorial frame.
Yes. After all, who wants to deal with expressed opinions! :roll:

[Tchocky]

Going straight to JW is like reading the Op-Ed page first. It's better to have your own opinion before reading someone else's. For reasons of clarity, the original source is preferable.

[Skybird]

Nice job, P_Funk. :nope: If one were deaf, blind and dumb, one would even believe it.

Condescencion not necessary here. Just present your arguement and try not to belittle his.

Ripping some data out of a greater set of data intentionally and then leave the other stuff out, by that making it appear that the left out data does not put the choosen data back in to perspective, is not "nice". It's like quoting out of context. Or cheating.

58% of Europeans believe that "many of the problems in the world today are a result of arrogant US attitudes"

Fixed!
Pardon? A joke, or somehing else? The correct quote is:

58% believe that "many of the problems in the world today are a result of arrogant Western attitudes"

The questionaire implies that the talk is not of Europeans, but those 1000 Muslims being polled.

[The Avon Lady]

Going straight to JW is like reading the Op-Ed page first. It's better to have your own opinion before reading someone else's. For reasons of clarity, the original source is preferable.
If you go to JW, close one eye and wince with the other, you'll be able to make out the underlined hyperlinks to the main news articles under discussion without becoming contaminated.

:ping: http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/8127/52402991eh0.jpg :ping:

[Skybird]

I wonder what you will do when you have run out of signature line space, AL!? :lol:

[Tchocky]

Going straight to JW is like reading the Op-Ed page first. It's better to have your own opinion before reading someone else's. For reasons of clarity, the original source is preferable. If you go to JW, close one eye and wince with the other, you'll be able to make out the underlined hyperlinks to the main news articles under discussion without becoming contaminated.
True, but apparently there's folk here who run amok, so I thought I'd weigh in.

[The Avon Lady]

I wonder what you will do when you have run out of signature line space, AL!? :lol:
My sig will have to point to a link page I'll set up. :know: :yep: :D

[HunterICX]

:hmm: Funny,
lot of the things posted above is taken out of newspaper and statistics.

what about words from ''who lived in holland''
I think like me, seen, heard smelled the things happend in holland ;)

to be honest, the governement is more worried about filling their own pockets and to gain money by increasing taxes, adding traffic rules which add more fines if you break them. for example the police , it has been called ''Your Friend!'' <- BIGGEST ERROR IN HISTORY

the police isnt your friend! as you dont know him or his familly. and you dont want to be his best friend. no, he is the guy who protects you! and must maintain the lawn and order on the streets, city and the villages.
The Police has been called the Friend alright, stupid.
coz how can he be your friend, he's more the pr*ck that gives you a fine when you go 5 miles over the speed limit. or when your parked him slightly wrong and when you come back..KEDANG a wheelblock! you can pay to get rid of it! etc etc.

the police is so weak that if they HIT a criminal whois fighting the police to resist his arrest, and the police gives him a good smack...the criminal can sue the police for hitting him. there is a part I dont understand in that. but O.k. the police is your friend. :nope:

also YOU cant do ANYTHING without consequences when you find a burglar in your home with a pistol. but you can take him by surprise and hit his head with a frying pan and knock him out.
guess what! YOU'RE GOING TO BE IN BIG TROUBLE! :doh:

Dont bother to call the police when you hear your neighbour screaming for help as he is getting tortured. the police probally waits 30 minutes to wait for assistance as they are slowpokes.

now this is what I've heard from my dad as he has been a AH supermarket manager for over 30 years.
when he had a Junk or just someone robbing stuff in his shop and he caught him and called the police to pick him up. you get the most dumb question ever!

Police: Did you allow him to take this stuff?
my thoughts about that: really WHAT THE HECK! now really if I would allow him to steal my stuff I wouldnt call you dumbnuts in the first place!

now lets talk about the immigrants and the crap we had from them:
I,m not beeing a racist here as I know its about that freaking part of them screwing it for them all.

lets take somethings that just really pissed me of

9/11 the WTC

in some streets in holland , muslims where shouting out loud of joy and dancing on the streets! and nobody told or did anything about that, OUTRAGEOUS!
and they are allowed to do that! as we need to understand their believes!
:nope: I would have liked to see getting their arses kicked back into their homes.

to make that even worse

4 May the day that we remember the death in holland:

they where having a soccer game with the layed down wreaths to honor the sacrifices. youngers from marroco where having a nice soccer party while yelling JEWS MUST DIE.
some said : ''we have to respect their religion'' and ''their feelings''
the minister said it was Disrespectfull and shocked (that was more to hush us down) but nothing has been done about it.

just clearly states that those person do NOT RESPECT THE PRICE been paid in those days of world war 2 to liberate our country!
if I would witness that I would gang up those soccer players and beat the living hell out of them.

after the death of Theo van Gogh who has been killed for making a movie in name of Freedom of speech.
after that, some dutch started to set fire on some muslim schools. and our minister says that is a NO - NO. we cannot do that BAD DUTCH! show manners!
Right? now why cant we show our anger why do we have to take the crap they cause! I dont understand why there are even muslim schools well I dont mind a couple but in the numbers we have?
1. the rates on those schools are VERY LOW
2. some schools have material that are about how BAD infidels and jews are (you know the story)

Heck, if we have it about schools , the mosques are popping out of the ground as mushrooms in our country. some have recorded the Imam talking about
''the ground shall shake under the feet of the infidels GET THEM GET THEM cut their throats and kill them like pigs as they are''
:roll: (my thoughts: clear the building and demolish it, and arrest the imam and throw him out of the country for promoting radical muslim religion)

Ow there is going to be a hospital specially for muslims too....:nope:
whats wrong with our Hospitals?

now lets talk about terror in our country

the famous is the Murder of theo van gogh in name of Freedom of speech.
his movie submission clearly must pissed of the muslims...while in fact there is not hing much insulting about movie anyway. but he got a knife for making that movie.
poor fella.

now the killer Mohammed B.
it was a wild chase of the police and finally they got him after a shot in his leg.
funny it took a darn long time before he was had been laid on Life long sentence to never be released. now the police who arrested him...I,m not joking where crying as what Mohammed B said to them. I'm really sorry, but showing you feelings in front of the guy who you have arrested just shows how WEAK you are. I know they are humans but its a bad situation to cry.

another fella Samir.A

who multiple times have been caught suspected for terror attacks.
the guy doesnt fit in our country. but no..even caught with official documents and building plans of governement buildings and airports and stuff in his house to make a bomb, and almost forgot the video tape which you see on TV when they are about to do horrible things. he goes free....
rip his dutch passport to pieces , and kick him back to his own country.:shifty:

sorry for the long post , but I had to throw it out :yep:

HunterICX

[P_Funk]

It took 19 people "off the radar" to kill some 3000 people in under one and a half hours, with boxcutters as their weapon of choice. Use your imagination. They certainly are. And they are laughing. Yes and people like to go on about how it could have been prevented if either Clinton or Bush had done their job (depending on which side of the aisle you pee on). They took advantage of a weakness. Many of the others are less competent or even ambivalent. And once again if there are only 1600 active plotters in a nation of millions then I hardly think thats justice to a religion of millions. But of course the sabre rattlers like to make it into a society changing thing. A handful of true enemies makes half the world our enemy and you'd better give up the bulk of your constitution too.

Still I don't accept the sociological assertion that Islam is itself the source of evil. When I quoted those statistics I pointed out a few important majorities. Most muslims seem to like British law. And only a minority of young people are touting their radical orthodoxy. And so the young are idealistic and radical. That isn't impeachment for the breadth of a culture. The young are where the radicals always get their following. And I don't see the point of saying that 80% of muslims think religions is the most important thing to them. I'm sure alot of christians would say the same. The point is that it isn't conclusive.

And Skybird I thought you were bigger than those petty comments. It didn't hurt me half as much as my opinion of you. Wheres the polite disagreement?

[Happy Times]

Most muslims seem to like British law.

Im sure they all like it when it suits them.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7c5_1184606504

"Convicted al-qaeda terrorist, Dhiren Barot, has entire face and neck burned by british inmates with scalding oil, muslim lawyer demands prisoner of war status and special rights for all muslim terrorists arrested, includiing their own special wing of the prison."



:rotfl:

[P_Funk]

Most muslims seem to like British law.
Im sure they all like it when it suits them.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7c5_1184606504

"Convicted al-qaeda terrorist, Dhiren Barot, has entire face and neck burned by british inmates with scalding oil, muslim lawyer demands prisoner of war status and special rights for all muslim terrorists arrested, includiing their own special wing of the prison."



:rotfl:
Well if we keep throwing them in prison camps, calling it a war, and not trying them by normal civilian laws then maybe it isn't so unreasonable to expect that request. Special enemy deserves special treatment. Or are they suddenly just like everyone else again?

[Yahoshua]

Well if we keep throwing them in prison camps, calling it a war, and not trying them by normal civilian laws then maybe it isn't so unreasonable to expect that request. Special enemy deserves special treatment. Or are they suddenly just like everyone else again?

They don't wear uniforms and aren't affiliated with any particular nation, therefore they aren't covered by the Geneva Convention (under which the treatment of POWs' are handled), but their offenses fall under military jurisdiction and outside that of civil jurisdiction. They aren't like anyone else, and they don't deserve anything out of the ordinary.

[Happy Times]

Most muslims seem to like British law.
Im sure they all like it when it suits them.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7c5_1184606504

"Convicted al-qaeda terrorist, Dhiren Barot, has entire face and neck burned by british inmates with scalding oil, muslim lawyer demands prisoner of war status and special rights for all muslim terrorists arrested, includiing their own special wing of the prison."



:rotfl:
Well if we keep throwing them in prison camps, calling it a war, and not trying them by normal civilian laws then maybe it isn't so unreasonable to expect that request. Special enemy deserves special treatment. Or are they suddenly just like everyone else again?

Well Dhiren got a normal trial in criminal court. He helped in killing thousands of people. Did you hear him go "boom" in his video, i would kick his face in (edit. realised he doesnt have one :rotfl: ) if i would meet him and pay the bill smiling. 40 years is too little for his offence imo. Now he wants special treatment not to get burned, raped or shanked. Should we give that to pedophiles also? I honestly dont care what happens to him.

[The Avon Lady]

It took 19 people "off the radar" to kill some 3000 people in under one and a half hours, with boxcutters as their weapon of choice. Use your imagination. They certainly are. And they are laughing. Yes and people like to go on about how it could have been prevented if either Clinton or Bush had done their job (depending on which side of the aisle you pee on).
You mean it was unpreventable? You mean there were no lessons to learn? You mean there were no leads to follow, no activities that could have/should have been monitored?

Maybe you're right. Some people seem to have learned absolutely nothing.
They took advantage of a weakness.
Stupidity is a weakness. Ignorance is a weakness. So is arrogance.
Many of the others are less competent or even ambivalent.
How do you know not to say "many of the others are more competent"?
And once again if there are only 1600 active plotters in a nation of millions then I hardly think thats justice to a religion of millions.
Read "One in a thousand?" (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/017388.php) - at Jihad Watch, of course. I suppose that's a dare for you.
But of course the sabre rattlers like to make it into a society changing thing. A handful of true enemies makes half the world our enemy and you'd better give up the bulk of your constitution too.
Yes. Bombs. Terror attacks. Iraq, Iran, Saudi funded madrasas. People slaughtered in Thailand, Niger, Darfur. Paris burning. Trains smoldering. Towers falling. Mouths shut closed. Open proclamations of future goals and desires.

Eyes wide shut.

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/764/roseglassesip2.jpg
Still I don't accept the sociological assertion that Islam is itself the source of evil.
Based on what? History? News in the making? Consistant Islamic teachings from the times on Mohamed onward?
When I quoted those statistics I pointed out a few important majorities. Most muslims seem to like British law. And only a minority of young people are touting their radical orthodoxy. And so the young are idealistic and radical. That isn't impeachment for the breadth of a culture. The young are where the radicals always get their following. And I don't see the point of saying that 80% of muslims think religions is the most important thing to them. I'm sure alot of christians would say the same. The point is that it isn't conclusive.
Everything's inconclusive. Everything's gray (or rose colored). There is no black and white.

Some who are in the know, however, will tell it to you straight (http://www.memri.org/bin/opener_latest.cgi?ID=SD165007).

UPDATE: Another one in the know (http://www.nysun.com/article/58062). Here's another (http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/editorial/story.html?id=23fb70a0-3386-4517-9fc7-1157a1d33a14). One last one (plenty more available - these have simply been published with the last 2 weeks):
"When I was still a member of what is probably best termed the British Jihadi Network,
a series of semi-autonomous British Muslim terrorist groups linked by a single ideology,
I remember how we used to laugh in celebration whenever people on TV proclaimed
that the sole cause for Islamic acts of terror like 9/11, the Madrid bombings and 7/7
was Western foreign policy. "

"By blaming the government for our actions, those who pushed the 'Blair's bombs' line
did our propaganda work for us. More important, they also helped to draw away any
critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology."

- Hassan Butt (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2115832,00.html), former member of Omar Bakri's UK jihad group Al-Muhajiroun

"Philistines upon you, Samson!"

[Happy Times]

What hard core prisons do you have in the US? I was just thinking maybe they would be more appropriate places than that illegal Guantanamo.;)

[Skybird]

It took 19 people "off the radar" to kill some 3000 people in under one and a half hours, with boxcutters as their weapon of choice. Use your imagination. They certainly are. And they are laughing. Yes and people like to go on about how it could have been prevented if either Clinton or Bush had done their job (depending on which side of the aisle you pee on). They took advantage of a weakness. Many of the others are less competent or even ambivalent. And once again if there are only 1600 active plotters in a nation of millions then I hardly think thats justice to a religion of millions. But of course the sabre rattlers like to make it into a society changing thing. A handful of true enemies makes half the world our enemy and you'd better give up the bulk of your constitution too.

Still I don't accept the sociological assertion that Islam is itself the source of evil. When I quoted those statistics I pointed out a few important majorities. Most muslims seem to like British law. And only a minority of young people are touting their radical orthodoxy. And so the young are idealistic and radical. That isn't impeachment for the breadth of a culture. The young are where the radicals always get their following. And I don't see the point of saying that 80% of muslims think religions is the most important thing to them. I'm sure alot of christians would say the same. The point is that it isn't conclusive.

And Skybird I thought you were bigger than those petty comments. It didn't hurt me half as much as my opinion of you. Wheres the polite disagreement?
The faulty way you referred to that statistics was unpolite in itself. Like turning words in my mouth. Ripping out of context. Cheating. Polite disagreement - another one of these empty phrases. the consequences of a given disagreement is what decides for me wether I take it easy, or not. not liking the same kind of games is one thing. accepting different consequences for my home culture - is something very different.

And btw, it is not important oif you believe those sociological assertions or ot - if you are able to compare reality with the "theological" content of Islam - this is what decides your position. And for that you need to learn a bit academical analysis of Islam. Don't get me wrong, this is no attack, I mean it as a simple fact. Many people today run around and think freedom of speech allows them to demand that what they imagine, and believe, and wish for, must be taken as solid argument equal in worth like knowledge. And especially the Islam debate is plagued by this syndrome. I would never label me an academic expert on Islam, but I have red quite some historical and other academical books analysising it'S political, sociological and theological content, I have red the most of the quran, but I need to turn pages in it to quote from it, I do not have it all in my memory. But I know what is there, and I know where to find it if I want to search for it. I have been in islamic countries, and finally I still get occasional input from friends I know that work in the social and educational field in berlin, Hamburg and Frankfurt, where they have to deal a lot with migration probems and the cultural backgroudn these problems often derive from. From all this I take the right to claim not to be a great expert, but to know a bit more about it than just believing in superficial hear-say, what is the norm today in public discussion of the matter.

The main threat, both qualitative and quantitative, in the global terror scene today is from groups being educated by Quranic/Islamic/Muhammed's thinking. Not Jews. Not Christians. Not Hindus. Not Buddhists. Not politically ambitious people. Not Christian rightwingers. Not Jewish radicals. If you think Islam's teaching and the way these teachings form and educate an certain mindset, have nothing to do with that, then nobody can help you. It is considered to be politically correct to say tiome and again that religion has nothing to do with the troubles Islam is causing. That is totally wrong. Religion has all to do with it. It is creating the troubles. We are in the centre of a global religious confrontation.

And generally said, there are some things that I consider to be totally untolerable, forms of certain extremism, ideologies, egocentrisms. I do not buy this unlimited tolerance-thing. that one voltaire-quote of "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it.", is one of the most overestimated and hollow piece of literature quotes I know, and raises this psychologist's eye-brow (there are patients in therapies suffering from such self-sacrificing problems like this, in family- and relation-constellation). I think a bit different here, and in terms of reciprocity: I tolerate you as much as you tolerate me. Where you don't tolerate me, my tolerance for you ends.

Unfortunately terms like peace or tolerance (means: in ol' Muhammad'S thinking) have a totally different meaning than with us in the West. A conception of peacefuzl coexistence, as we interpret this ophrase, simply is unknown in the Quran: here it is always about dominance of Islam, an obedient and serving attitude of those subjugated, with whom Islam "coexists", and holding peace as long only as is needed to regain enough strength to overcome the dar-al-harb. whereas peace again is no coexistance, but the victory over and the annihilation of dar-al-harb, or anything that is not Islam and what by this difference alone already is a challenge to islam's self-perception. It is abouit narcissism, and explpoitation.

Never forget that it was a powerhungry bandit, blackmailer, warmonger and murderer who put it all together in thoughts and conceptions. It would be stupid to expect such a violant, unscrupelous person to show up with ideas of reason, peace, freedom and tolerance.

[The Avon Lady]

Never forget that it was a powerhungry bandit, blackmailer, warmonger and murderer who put it all together in thoughts and conceptions. It would be stupid to expect such a violant, unscrupelous person to show up with ideas of reason, peace, freedom and tolerance.
A quote to raise eyebrows and chop off heads - whichever comes first.

:roll: :/\\chop

[Skybird]

Never forget that it was a powerhungry bandit, blackmailer, warmonger and murderer who put it all together in thoughts and conceptions. It would be stupid to expect such a violant, unscrupelous person to show up with ideas of reason, peace, freedom and tolerance.
A quote to raise eyebrows and chop off heads - whichever comes first.

:roll: :/\\chop

According mail I already get since early last year. And yes, it raised an eye-brow - mine.

[Fish]

rip his dutch passport to pieces , and kick him back to his own country.:shifty:




After reading your post, glad you did. :stare:

[Happy Times]

rip his dutch passport to pieces , and kick him back to his own country.:shifty:




After reading your post, glad you did. :stare:

He told it as he sees it. Do you see the situation differently?

[tycho102]

Many of the others are less competent or even ambivalent. And once again if there are only 1600 active plotters in a nation of millions then I hardly think thats justice to a religion of millions.

Part of the problem with all the Catholics priests fiddling around with kids is the fact there are 1.1 billion Catholics in this world. That Archdioses Fund (the "ADF") goes to support these $600 million settlements and other attorney fees. They have been for the past 50 years, it just hasn't made the news until recently. So all through the 60's and 70's and 80's, when people were giving money to the ADF, 20% was giong to bishops and the other 80% was going to all the legal issues.



The support system is a fundamental problem. Same reason we firebombed Dresden; to shut down the support system. Civilians support the war effort -- the faithful support the clergy and mujahideen. There is some factual basis behind all these pithy "gotta kick a few grandmas down the stairs if you want to save the world" anecdotes.

[TteFAboB]

You're supposed to post on my Welcome back thread after saying good-bye! :smug:

Welcome, Islamic Holland! The Netherlands is a nether world run by the drug industry and swarmed by prostitutes. It is the stain of Europe, a cancer in between the cancer. Islam is the cure. I warn my muslim brothers, however, that they remain smart as once we become dominant in Holland it will be our turn and they'll try to control us instead. We must make them believe that they're fooling us while in fact we fool them. To compensate for the degradation of this most perverted country, may it be the first in Europe to become a Sharia state!
:up: :up:

[P_Funk]

And generally said, there are some things that I consider to be totally untolerable, forms of certain extremism, ideologies, egocentrisms. I do not buy this unlimited tolerance-thing. that one voltaire-quote of "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it.", is one of the most overestimated and hollow piece of literature quotes I know, and raises this psychologist's eye-brow (there are patients in therapies suffering from such self-sacrificing problems like this, in family- and relation-constellation). I think a bit different here, and in terms of reciprocity: I tolerate you as much as you tolerate me. Where you don't tolerate me, my tolerance for you ends. I totally agree with you there. Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating some kind of inverted extremism that calls for blind tolorance. To me its always a balance. There are elements of any culture that when they immigrate into a culture without pressure to conform at least to respect of the overriding culture of the land begin to distort and supplant it. And it is true that Islam seems to be even more prone to this effect. But at the same time I don't see the need to demonize the entire religion. For one saying that the blind understanding of the Quran and Muhammed's word is the only way to be a muslim. That is the same as saying that the only Christian is a catholic as the Pope has just reiterated. It may in fact be true that absolutist muslims that do not take any wiggle room in their beliefs are potentially dangerous and unfriedly to other cultures, but there seem to be a large enough number of less than orthodox muslims to allow for a less than blanket understanding of the term "muslim".

I find it frustrating that I'm some how dismissed or attacked as an ignorant fool just for not blowing the horn so loudly. Apparently being a moderate or being undecided or simply asking questions is unacceptable. Its especially annoying when I get called names and am given a child's treatment by those that think I'm wrong. Skybird I don't care if you didn't like the way I took those statistics. If you think it was academically incorrect then tell me. I thought you had a better intellect than to fall to what seems to be waste gate's former level. As it is he seems to be more forgiving than you. Hard to believe my respect for the two of you is inverting.

I'm just tired of the apocalytic "wake up and smell your doom" attitude in these discussions. The only reason I answered is because I was spoken to personally. At first I was against Takeda's idea to stop talk of Islam. Maybe he's right.

[The Avon Lady]

You're supposed to post on my Welcome back thread after saying good-bye! :smug:

Welcome, Islamic Holland! The Netherlands is a nether world run by the drug industry and swarmed by prostitutes.
You forgot to mention, ironically, that Holland long ago legalized euthanasia.

[Skybird]

I totally agree with you there. Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating some kind of inverted extremism that calls for blind tolorance. To me its always a balance. There are elements of any culture that when they immigrate into a culture without pressure to conform at least to respect of the overriding culture of the land begin to distort and supplant it. And it is true that Islam seems to be even more prone to this effect. But at the same time I don't see the need to demonize the entire religion. For one saying that the blind understanding of the Quran and Muhammed's word is the only way to be a muslim. That is the same as saying that the only Christian is a catholic as the Pope has just reiterated.

No it is not. Becasue the church (or Paul) can be argued to have a legal claim in saying that it was founded by Jesus, also, the b ible is accepted by all churches to be NOT the word of God, only some very minor quotes in it are understood to be delivered as being the orginal word of God (the ten commandements, for example). Between Jesus, and the written fixing of the Gospels lied more than two generations. The Quran, on the other hand, can academically been prooved to have changed and altered and undergone most drastic linguistic changes in the first three centureies, however, different to the church, wide consensus amongst Muslim clerics is that this is not importnat, and that the quran enevrtheless from A to Z is the word of Allah who spoke though the mouth of muhammad. It is explicitly said and tought that this is a miracle that defeats al academical analysis.

Quran and Bible do not compare. Ideologically or by content, Quran compares only to the old testament, and in no way it compares to the four Gosples, in no way. also, the bible does not claim to be the word of God from A to Z. But Islam claims that for the Quran. muhammad said so. If today a Musolim says it is unreaosnbale to assume that - he is lucky not to live at the time of muhammad and be in his reach. His life would be in danger. Two secretaries of muhammad (who could not write himself) had to flee to save their lives when discovering that Muhammad added word by word comments they made for his planned preachings - and later told the mass it were not his secretaries, but God's own words. that was very clear evidence, in their eyes, how holy his serman really was.

It may in fact be true that absolutist muslims that do not take any wiggle room in their beliefs are potentially dangerous and unfriedly to other cultures, but there seem to be a large enough number of less than orthodox muslims to allow for a less than blanket understanding of the term "muslim".

I have explained my stand on that often enough. not every christian claiming to be christian is really Christian in the meaning of following the exmaple set by the Christ. Not every Muslim claiming to be muslim, follows all the backwardly rules and superstition and blind dogma of Muhammad. If you do not follow the example of christ's life, you are not a true Christian. If you do not follow the rules laid down by muhammad and summaRIZED IN THE QURAN AND HADITH, YOU ARE NOT truly muhammedan. That simple it is. But if you refuse to follow some of the blind, bad, damaging Islamic rules and by that already rejected it - you must alloow the question why nevertheless you want to be considered a member of Muhammedanism...? Muhammad did not allow to be picky about what of his teachings you may want to choose, and what to refuse, it's an all-or-nothing-at-all-affair. That was powerpolitics, and keeping up the control. the whole islamic system in it'S totally totalitarian draft is about this: being a complete, a whole, a united "ONE". The Sharia is meant as a tool not to believe in the right things, but in the right wqay. That is a very huge difference to other religions. You are not left with any freedom to choose. The diversity you - and many "Muslims"! - see Islam allowing - is self-deception of yours. It is not allowed at all, as most prominently illustrated by the law that everybody leaving Islam must be killed.


I find it frustrating that I'm some how dismissed or attacked as an ignorant fool just for not blowing the horn so loudly. Apparently being a moderate or being undecided or simply asking questions is unacceptable.

You did not ask question, you intentionally abused a given piece of statistics to make it appear as serving your agenda, and that is some kind of cheating that I take queer. And now you present yourself as the innocent victim of my intolerance because I did not let you get away with it and gave you a well-deserved clap on your fingers? Note that I could have done the same like you, of course I am aware that the data exoressed min those values is not only black and not only white. I did not, instead linked the whole thing. And later I pointed at some inherent information becoming evident when using the numbers as a positive and from that outlined the negative that was not explicitly described in numbers black on white, so to speak.

Its especially annoying when I get called names and am given a child's treatment by those that think I'm wrong. Skybird I don't care if you didn't like the way I took those statistics. If you think it was academically incorrect then tell me.

I don' buy it that you did not know in how far you arranged the numbers - your selection was too picky. And that's why I gave you a short snappy remark.

I thought you had a better intellect than to fall to what seems to be waste gate's former level. As it is he seems to be more forgiving than you. Hard to believe my respect for the two of you is inverting.

If you see him the same way like me, than you are heading for a frotnal collision anyway. We are lightyears apart. Beyond that, mind if I take a minute to sob, and dry my wet eyes again, wait...

I'm just tired of the apocalytic "wake up and smell your doom" attitude in these discussions. The only reason I answered is because I was spoken to personally. At first I was against Takeda's idea to stop talk of Islam. Maybe he's right.

It was my idea to stop (ban) it - Takeda trusts on the self-healing reason of people to voluntarily stop it. i've been too long at this forum to trust in that. But still, Neal does not listen :D . I did not want to engage in Islam-related debates again after Neals thread some days ago, and recommended to ban political debates otoching Islamic countries as well, because here you cannot keep religion out of politics. but if that moratorium is used to only gloss over islam and nice-talk it, in explicit ignorration of some simple facts, i must refuse to accept that happenigng unopposed. I do like that in my real life: not searching Islam for having a rumble, but never evading it if it happens to find me or cross my usual paths - and I have no intention to behave differently while on the web.

So again, guys, let's stop these Islam debates, I'm all for it, really:

Just days ago we had a long debate started by Neal on threads like this. I recommended back then and recommend now to simply leave such threads out. It cannot be that discussions on Islam are considered acceptable as long as, in the name of friendliness, they are referring to it in a distorted and friendly way that hides it's intolerant and unfriendly content, while pointing at these details of it'S nature is considered hatespeech and is always threatened by moderators to get locked. That is an widening of modern PC madness into this forum that really does no honour to this place.

If somebody wants to lock something, then lock Islam-topics altogether, not just those that are critical of Islam. That means to lock political threads too if they touch nations in the middle east, because here, policy and religion cannot be separated. - That way neither lies get told about Islam, nor a fight about pro and contra arguments can erupt, and no personal yelling can take place.

[Takeda Shingen]

It was my idea to stop (ban) it - Takeda trusts on the self-healing reason of people to voluntarily stop it. i've been too long at this forum to trust in that.

Ha. I absolutely do not trust in the prevailing nature of any type of reason. Please take the totality of what I have said: Members should act with reason, but cannot, for the internet forum serves as the antithesis of reason. Furthermore, when it comes to the quelling of hostitlities, I must appeal to whatever voluntary nature remains after the corruption of the internet. There is no other course of action: It would be unethical to have a member suspended for disagreeing with me. However, to paint me as lolligagger, sitting back and foolishly hoping that the forum will see reason, is an inaccurate assumption. You assume too much.

To paraphrase from a former president: My objective is forum stability and civility. If we can have this with unlimited discussion of Islam, then we shall have it. If we can have this with no discussion of Islam, then we shall have it, and, if we can have have this with some topical discussion of Islam and not others, then we will have that too. And so we come to it. The problem is not Islam. No, the problem civility. By my last reckoning, there were two great truths here: (1) this is a private forum with its own set of conduct regulations, and (2) you are responsible for you. Am I naively trusting again? No, but if a member is constantly betrating his or her fellow members, and the time comes that action must be taking, let it be known that it was the member's actions, not opinions, that caused the action. I simply must reinforce that distinction from time to time. There stands the puropose of what I have said.

[waste gate]

To paraphrase from a former president

Lincoln?

EDIT:

PS For those of you who like to invoke my name in arguments I have not participated in..........I am flattered but please stop.

[The Avon Lady]

To paraphrase from a former president
Lincoln?
How about at least a linc?

[waste gate]

To paraphrase from a former president
Lincoln?
How about at least a linc?

Just sounded to me like what Lincoln said about saving the union visa vis slavery.

I have no link to post.

[Takeda Shingen]

Well done, waste gate. It is indeed a paraphrase of the Lincoln letter to New York Tribune editor Horace Greeley (22 August, 1862) in response to Greeley's open letter, The Prayer to Twenty Millions.

Source: The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, 1990, Rutgers University Press

If you want 'lincs', you can go to google.com and query Lincoln's letter to Horace Greeley. You will find ample 'lincs' there, but be warned that this is only superficial. Anyone with a computer and internet connection can tell you anything about anyone. This does not render the information factual. To publish, however, draws heavy scrutiny, which results in greater validity. Thus, hard research comes from books, not bytes.

[The Avon Lady]

Thus, hard research comes from books, not bytes.
Nonsense! Expelliarmus (http://www.boingboing.net/2007/07/17/last_harry_potter_le.html)! :p

[Onkel Neal]

To paraphrase from a former president: My objective is forum stability and civility.

Well said, and I'm impressed with your choice of president to paraphrase.

[Heibges]

To paraphrase from a former president

Lincoln?

EDIT:

PS For those of you who like to invoke my name in arguments I have not participated in..........I am flattered but please stop.

You're a regular Kaiser Soze.:D

[TteFAboB]

You're supposed to post on my Welcome back thread after saying good-bye! :smug:

Welcome, Islamic Holland! The Netherlands is a nether world run by the drug industry and swarmed by prostitutes.
You forgot to mention, ironically, that Holland long ago legalized euthanasia.

Hmm, I'm basing myself on the program of the Venezuelan Hezbollah. If I remember correctly, they want to:

1. Stop the drug industry.
2. Stop the prostitution industry.
3. Stop corruption. (nice start on their part)
4. Institute mandatory charity tax.

But fair enough...the Dutch are morally corrupt; and, they don't pay the Zakah, they are an uncharitable people.

Happy?

[The Avon Lady]

To paraphrase from a former president: My objective is forum stability and civility.

Well said, and I'm impressed with your choice of president to paraphrase.
Lincoln said "If you go to mixing in a mix-up, you only make the muddle worse."

Obviously Lincoln didn't like forum moderators. :smug: :p

[Takeda Shingen]

To paraphrase from a former president: My objective is forum stability and civility.

Well said, and I'm impressed with your choice of president to paraphrase.
Lincoln said "If you go to mixing in a mix-up, you only make the muddle worse."

Obviously Lincoln didn't like forum moderators. :smug: :p

It would seem that you and Mr. Lincoln have common ground.

[The Avon Lady]

To paraphrase from a former president: My objective is forum stability and civility.

Well said, and I'm impressed with your choice of president to paraphrase.
Lincoln said "If you go to mixing in a mix-up, you only make the muddle worse."

Obviously Lincoln didn't like forum moderators. :smug: :p
It would seem that you and Mr. Lincoln have common ground.
Yes. He even advocated against moderating at home:

"I have learned a great many years ago that in a fight between husband and wife, a third party should never get between the woman's skillet and the man's ax-handle."

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/5999/29462682ri6.jpg

[Takeda Shingen]

Uh huh. Mr. Lincoln, after saying this, went on to trample the first ammendment rights of the individual and the collective press, and suspend habeas corpus. Clearly, despite his words, his actions were of the dictate 'preservation by any means necessary.' It seems to me that he would have made a fine moderator.

[The Avon Lady]

Uh huh. Mr. Lincoln, after saying this, went on to trample the first ammendment rights of the individual and the collective press, and suspend habeas corpus. Clearly, despite his words, his actions were of the dictate 'preservation by any means necessary.' It seems to me that he would have made a fine moderator.
"I may not have made as great a President as some other man, but I believe I have kept these discordant elements together as well as one could."

[The Avon Lady]

Back on topic..............

Just found this, from this past April: Time to Get Out (http://www.pajamasmedia.com/2007/04/time_to_get_out.php). Excerpt:

This year some 32% are seriously considering a move as opposed to 26% last year according to the ‘Emigration Monitor’. What is even more revealing is that the 20 to 30 age group constitutes the largest group of leavers, a trend that got further momentum when one polling group figured out that about half of the nation’s adolescents would, given the chance, prefer to pack up and go. Last year’s number confirm that the Dutch are experiencing the largest net outflow of people since the post-war emigration boom of the 1950s and the remarkable attitude shifts will ensure that this trend will persist in the years to come.

[Fish]

You're supposed to post on my Welcome back thread after saying good-bye! :smug:

Welcome, Islamic Holland! The Netherlands is a nether world run by the drug industry and swarmed by prostitutes.
You forgot to mention, ironically, that Holland long ago legalized euthanasia.

In 2002, The Netherlands legalized euthanasia. Euthanasia is still a criminal offence but the law codified a twenty year old convention of not prosecuting doctors who have committed euthanasia in very specific cases, under very specific circumstances!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_the_Netherlands

[Fish]

Back on topic..............

Just found this, from this past April: Time to Get Out (http://www.pajamasmedia.com/2007/04/time_to_get_out.php). Excerpt:

This year some 32% are seriously considering a move as opposed to 26% last year according to the ‘Emigration Monitor’. What is even more revealing is that the 20 to 30 age group constitutes the largest group of leavers, a trend that got further momentum when one polling group figured out that about half of the nation’s adolescents would, given the chance, prefer to pack up and go. Last year’s number confirm that the Dutch are experiencing the largest net outflow of people since the post-war emigration boom of the 1950s and the remarkable attitude shifts will ensure that this trend will persist in the years to come.

They’re young, affluent, well-educated, entrepreneurial, fluent in English and smart enough to have figured that the time has come to get out as the future can no longer be found at home.

They had the same ideas in the 1950s.:hmm:

[Happy Times]

Back on topic..............

Just found this, from this past April: Time to Get Out (http://www.pajamasmedia.com/2007/04/time_to_get_out.php). Excerpt:

This year some 32% are seriously considering a move as opposed to 26% last year according to the ‘Emigration Monitor’. What is even more revealing is that the 20 to 30 age group constitutes the largest group of leavers, a trend that got further momentum when one polling group figured out that about half of the nation’s adolescents would, given the chance, prefer to pack up and go. Last year’s number confirm that the Dutch are experiencing the largest net outflow of people since the post-war emigration boom of the 1950s and the remarkable attitude shifts will ensure that this trend will persist in the years to come.

A link if someone wants to come here. :lol:

http://www.expat-finland.com/

[The Avon Lady]

They had the same ideas in the 1950s.:hmm:
The difference being Holland didn't have the same immigrant influx and social upheavals back then.

The article does not pinpoint what is causing the departures. And for our purposes here, you can assume that people are mostly leaving for economical reasons. No matter what the reason, if so many natives are leaving, so is their culture. The vaccum is being filled by someone else, with other values and priorities, and that's what this thread is about.

[Fish]

They had the same ideas in the 1950s.:hmm:
The difference being Holland didn't have the same immigrant influx and social upheavals back then.



Yeah, back then it where jews. You know jewish -christian roots? Now they are from all over the world.
So in a few hundred or more years the culture is changed. Whats new?

[Skybird]

"Few hundred years or more?" Make it "much earlier". I count in 2-4 generations only.

[Fish]

"Few hundred years or more?" Make it "much earlier". I count in 2-4 generations only.

We live in a moving world, ain't we. :cool:

[Skybird]

It certainly is the greatest migration of people (Völkerwanderung) history does know, both in absolute numbers or percentages. i mean all what happens, not just the Dutch exodus.

Germany is loosing lots of people, too: educated middle and upper class, academical specialists, "intelligentia". Many move to Scandinavia, Spain, and Canada. The immigrants we get are not compensating for that, in educational quality and independence from the social wellfare system. So, it is a deficit deal for us, too.

Not that any politicians cares - or dares to tell that. Mentioning these differences in "quality" is verboten. You'll get called a racist and man-hater immediately. But it is a fact.

[waste gate]

I haven't watched this tread much, except for the growing number of pages. If Holland wants Islam let them have it. If they are the first in Europe they certainly won't be the last. I've noticed Europe's lack of action in anything which will affect it.
Let it be. Bread and circus. Our socialist Gov't will protect us, fools.

Until Europeans grow some balls I say let it fall.