Steps to automatically determine speed using 1.3 Patch

[rdhiggins]

Hello,

I have been trying to figure out why I am having problems using the Automatic Speed determinator that was introduced in patch 1.3

Can somebody please list the EXACT steps in how they are doing it......

This is how I am doing it.

1. Visual contact of enemy vessel
2. Once visual contact is made then I proceed to crash drive and go to periscope depth.
3. Usually the enemy is around 5000 nm.
4. I raise the attack periscope and use the recognition manual to identify the vessel.
5. I then perform the range and the AOB, and then click on the PK.
6. I lower the periscope and wait about 30 seconds.
7. I then raise my periscope and perform another range and the AOB.
8. I click on the Identify Ship button and nothing happens.....
9. I have even tried to do another range and AOB, (and clicking again on the identify ship but nothing seems to happen)

[LukeFF]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=588571&postcount=1

[rdhiggins]

Thank you will give that a shot :up:

[AVGWarhawk]

It seems you always need a visual. I cannot get speed estimation by using just sonar and active pinging. Not that this is a huge issue. I just plot and dial in the speed. It worked on may last attack. Pitch black night with the slashing ran:oops: . I got three hits just using the sonar and active pinging for range. I dialed in 3 kts as the target was tracking very slow.

[rdhiggins]

I may have a problem.... I am going to install a fresh install of Silent Hunter 4 with the 1.3 patch.

Also it might seem like a dumb question.... but I am going to ask anyways....

The ID button (last button on the Periscope) is this the "Estimate Target Speed button"? I just want to make sure I am using the right one...

Thanks again!

[AVGWarhawk]

I may have a problem.... I am going to install a fresh install of Silent Hunter 4 with the 1.3 patch.

Also it might seem like a dumb question.... but I am going to ask anyways....

The ID button (last button on the Periscope) is this the "Estimate Target Speed button"? I just want to make sure I am using the right one...

Thanks again!

I do not believe you are using the correct button. When in scope or TBT view the upper right hand corner is the tool to set up range AOB and speed. Get the range and bearing. Do this twice(have to wait a minute or so for the second reading. At this time click on the speed button and then click the little picture of a stopwatch at the top. If the plotting officer gives a speed on the target click the red button to update the TDC. Remeber, only good data will give you a good speed reading.

[maerean_m]

You don't need to reinstall the game.

Just have to press this button:
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s305/maerean_m/SilentHunter4/EstimateTargetSpeed.jpg

These are the steps to follow:
make sure the Position Keeper is OFF since it changes the TDC data using the speed determined for the previous ship you attacked. So PK is OFF.
Estimating the speed is affected by the efficiency of the crew, so it is useful to be in "battle stations" mode.
identify the ship so the correct mast height is set in the dial.
lock on the target. if the target is not locked the bearing will be off by at least one degree and you may get speed estimates in the range of 50 knots.
do a range measurement with the stadimeter and send it to the tdc
lower the periscope to avoid being seen
wait for 10 seconds (any more than that is useless)
raise the periscope
lock on the target. if the target is not locked the bearing will be off by at least one degree and you may get speed estimates in the range of 50 knots.
do a range measurement with the stadimeter and send it to the tdc
press the "Estimate target's speed". The estimated speed is set inside the dial (and typed in the message log). Pressing the button many times will produce different values, because of the human error. It is wise to send to the TDC the average of the given values.
send the speed to TDC
determine AOB
now the data are correct and you can activate the PK, lower the periscope and attack completely undetected :)So this not quite "automatically", but at least you have the firing squad to do all the math for you:
pin-point the positions (measured in degrees of latitude and longitude) of the target on the map (with almost GPS precision) based on the relative position of a target to the (moving) position of the sub. The parameters are the distance and the relative bearing to the target and the heading of the sub.
measure the distance between the 2 positions (this is in meters or yards)
determine the speed, knowing the distance and the time (this is meters or yards per second)
transform the speed in knots (based on the average length of the nautical mile).So, I guess that this math was what ticked everybody off when they said the stopwatch was broken :D. Basically, the stopwatch was only meant to give you the time between the range (and bearing) measurements. You had to do everything else, flowlessly, fast, every time :yep:. Well, no more!

PS: the system works even if there is no target in a thousand miles. So the system actually does all that calculations. Is not based on the fact that the game knows the position of all ships in the mission. You can do measurements of range and bearing "in clean air" and ask for a speed estimate with no problem. That's why is critical to lock on the target, so the result is the speed of that particular ship.

PPS: when you raise your periscope for the second range measurement, make sure you lock on the same ship. If you don't, the system will think the ship has teleported and report very high speeds :D . So when you see incredible speed estimates, it means you missed the ship and locked on another ship of the same class that's after you.

[switch.dota]

7. wait for 10 seconds (any more than that is useless)
The more you wait the more accurate the results will be -- at least in my experience. I tend to wait at least half a minute or so.

[AVGWarhawk]

Nice tutorial maerean_m!!!!!. I believe I will copy what you have and sticky it for a while:up:

[John Channing]

Sticky Hell!

I'm going to print it out and tape it to my monitor!

JCC

[FesterShinetop]

Sticky Hell!

I'm going to print it out and tape it to my monitor!

JCC

My thoughts exactly!!! :lol:

Nice tutorial maerean_m! Thanks!! :up:

[AVGWarhawk]

I followed these instructions and my torps were dead on!!!!:rock:

[rdhiggins]

Thanks to everyone for their help! :D I thought that the STOPWATCH button (from the TDC and TBT) was just the stopwatch and not just the Estimate Speed!!!

It would have been nice if the readme that came with 1.3 went into a little more explalation! :hmm:

Thanks!

[AVGWarhawk]

Thanks to everyone for their help! :D I thought that the STOPWATCH button (from the TDC and TBT) was just the stopwatch and not just the Estimate Speed!!!

It would have been nice if the readme that came with 1.3 went into a little more explalation! :hmm:

Thanks!

Kind of like the thorough manual that came with the....ah, never mind. Learn on the fly!

[macky]

How the hell do you guys do it:-? ...you never fail to impress me:up:

Now if only there was a concise nub guide to manual targeting I may be able to leave fps mode:yep:

[unga]

Many thanks for your nice, clear and very useful instructions maerean_m !!! :up::up::up:

[SeaSprite]

Does not work for me, even waiting between times the silly crew keep giving me wild speed estimates of around 50 to 70 knots lol. Testing on submarine school, so maybe its the crew?

[AVGWarhawk]

Does not work for me, even waiting between times the silly crew keep giving me wild speed estimates of around 50 to 70 knots lol. Testing on submarine school, so maybe its the crew?

Put your crew at battle stations. This seems to help. Also, the biggest key here is identifying the target correctly. Your bearing is calculated when you lock on the target with your scope or TBT. You then dial in the range using the stadimeter. Wait a bit and take another range and bearing. Again, if your target ID is wrong, the range will be skewed thus making your speed skewed. Even when I have correctly ID the target, my speed is not always correct. Your calculations are only as good as what you are feeding your TDC officer.

[maerean_m]

Does not work for me, even waiting between times the silly crew keep giving me wild speed estimates of around 50 to 70 knots lol. Testing on submarine school, so maybe its the crew?

That's because the mast height is way too small so the target is set too far when using the stadimeter (you can activate the Position Keeper to see that) and the speed needed to cover that distance has to be a big number.

[maerean_m]

It always seems my target values for the second ship are WAY off, as the torpedos go in odd directions.

:ping:

The position keeper must be activated only when you have sent fresh information to TDC: range & bearing, speed & AOB.

So after you sink a ship, you deactivate the PK and only reactivate it after you have completely described the new target.

Otherwise, your torpedoes will go in odd direction because after you send the first range measurement, the PK will change the TDC data using the last's ship AOB and speed. And there can be many seconds until you determine the new AOB and speed.

Remember: the Position Keeper was a mechanical calculator with toothed wheels, not a wizard, able to eliminate the bad targeting techniques. Its only purpose was to evolve the mathematical equation of the target's trajectory, but only after you have solved it at least once. This only allows for fewer raisings of the scope to avoid unnecessary exposure.

[E-Rock]

In the speed estimation procedure do you send range and AOB to the TDC twice (ie. lock target, send range, send AOB, wait, send range, send AOB then click stopwatch button) or just the range?

That was the method I used before reading this thread.

[maerean_m]

The speed of an entity is the ratio between the distance it travels in a given time over that time.

It doesn't matter whether the entity is spinning around its vertical axis (given by an AOB that changes during that time).

So you only need to send the range&bearing to get a speed estimate.

[iwanz85]

guys i have been reading this manual, but since im a newby i don't rly understand all the shortcuts and how to do it, ive got the following qeustions:
I need to send the range to the target to the "TDC", oke what is the TDC? Second, where is the send range to TDC button?
And how can i send the AOB , where is that button, can't find it either!
I can find send estimate target's speed, but then it says it needs more data :(
And what exactly is the stadimeter?
And my last qeustion, i need to identify the ship, in previous SH version that was done by using the recognition manual, how do i acces the manual in SH4? i can't seem to find it!

Sorry for these noob questions, but im just trying to understand and learn the game, i hope u can help me!

[Joe S]

The send data to TDC is the white triangle in the upper border of the dial.
The TDC is the Torpedo Data Computer, a device which calculates the gyro angle (firing angle) of a torpedo based on target range, bearing and speed data that you provide. It continuously updates the firing solution until the target changes course or speed.
The stadimeter is the range finding recticle in the periscope lens, the crosshairs and other markings. IF you know the height of a given part of the target, such as the mast, you can calculate the range by noting how many graduations on the periscope scale the object covers and doing a rather simply mathematical formula.
another range finding method was to use a split image in the periscope which is what the game simulates. Theoretically, it should also be possible to use the range finding rectile if the games scope magnification is accurately modeled.
You can access the id manual by hitting a key, (I cant remember which one now but its on the key chart, and also on one of the menu buttons on the bottom of the screen.

It is my belief that you do NOT have to correctly ID the target. You only need to know the masthieght. I am not at my home computer, but if you look at the various ships in a class, you will note that most ships in a given type,Destroyers, heavy cruisers, tankers, etc) have almost the same masthieght as other ships in the class.

Therefore, as long as you can identify what type of target you are aiming at, all you need to do is set an average masthieght..There are a few notable exceptions where the mastheight of a certain class of ship is quite a bit different from the others in that type. I recall that the Yamato class BB has a different mastheight than most other battleships.

I hope this helps, Joe S

[maerean_m]

The TDC is the Torpedo Data Computer... It continuously updates the firing solution until the target changes course or speed.
No, that's the Position Keeper that continuously updates the firing solution (that is stored by the TDC). If you don't start the Position Keeper, the TDC data is updated only by the player when sending new data to it (TDC). Only the american subs had a Position Keeper, the germans didn't.

[mrlucky35]

You don't need to reinstall the game.

Just have to press this button:
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s305/maerean_m/SilentHunter4/EstimateTargetSpeed.jpg

These are the steps to follow:

make sure the Position Keeper is OFF since it changes the TDC data using the speed determined for the previous ship you attacked. So PK is OFF.
Estimating the speed is affected by the efficiency of the crew, so it is useful to be in "battle stations" mode.
identify the ship so the correct mast height is set in the dial.
lock on the target. if the target is not locked the bearing will be off by at least one degree and you may get speed estimates in the range of 50 knots.
do a range measurement with the stadimeter and send it to the tdc
lower the periscope to avoid being seen
wait for 10 seconds (any more than that is useless)
raise the periscope
lock on the target. if the target is not locked the bearing will be off by at least one degree and you may get speed estimates in the range of 50 knots.
do a range measurement with the stadimeter and send it to the tdc
press the "Estimate target's speed". The estimated speed is set inside the dial (and typed in the message log). Pressing the button many times will produce different values, because of the human error. It is wise to send to the TDC the average of the given values.
send the speed to TDC
determine AOB
now the data are correct and you can activate the PK, lower the periscope and attack completely undetected :)So this not quite "automatically", but at least you have the firing squad to do all the math for you:

pin-point the positions (measured in degrees of latitude and longitude) of the target on the map (with almost GPS precision) based on the relative position of a target to the (moving) position of the sub. The parameters are the distance and the relative bearing to the target and the heading of the sub.
measure the distance between the 2 positions (this is in meters or yards)
determine the speed, knowing the distance and the time (this is meters or yards per second)
transform the speed in knots (based on the average length of the nautical mile).So, I guess that this math was what ticked everybody off when they said the stopwatch was broken :D. Basically, the stopwatch was only meant to give you the time between the range (and bearing) measurements. You had to do everything else, flowlessly, fast, every time :yep:. Well, no more!

PS: the system works even if there is no target in a thousand miles. So the system actually does all that calculations. Is not based on the fact that the game knows the position of all ships in the mission. You can do measurements of range and bearing "in clean air" and ask for a speed estimate with no problem. That's why is critical to lock on the target, so the result is the speed of that particular ship.

PPS: when you raise your periscope for the second range measurement, make sure you lock on the same ship. If you don't, the system will think the ship has teleported and report very high speeds :D . So when you see incredible speed estimates, it means you missed the ship and locked on another ship of the same class that's after you.

I,m a Newbie to this Game, But anyway, I have NO red Button on my TDC? Or I,m doing something wrong when I try to set up a shot? Or is the red Button always sposed to be there???:roll:

[Bando]

Are you sure you have Manual TDC active. Having no red insertion button mostly means auto TDC

[mrlucky35]

Are you sure you have Manual TDC active. Having no red insertion button mostly means auto TDC

Well, I don't know which is Manual or Auto? I,m playing on easy with 1.3 patch, and only had the game 5 days! Been Playing it for 5 to 6 hrs a night and still can't hit a barn!! Never played a sub sim before! But am having a ball playing and trying to learn what I,m doing! I just can't get the targeting down yet!:-? :up: I think i have been in the forums for the last 5 days also, Reading all the Threads on this targeting thing but I,am still at a loss or just plain DUMB LOL

[LukeFF]

Well, I don't know which is Manual or Auto? I,m playing on easy with 1.3 patch, and only had the game 5 days!

You probably have Auto enabled if you're playing on Easy mode. Check your difficulty settings, and you'll find out the answer for certain.

[mrlucky35]

Well, I don't know which is Manual or Auto? I,m playing on easy with 1.3 patch, and only had the game 5 days!

You probably have Auto enabled if you're playing on Easy mode. Check your difficulty settings, and you'll find out the answer for certain.

Will DO!! Thanks for all the help, Bunch of Great people in here!!:up:

[baracoeda]

Ok i have done all the steps the manual told me.
I had done a little bit of research to find out what all the terms meant.

But only one question remains : how do i known the angle on bow there is never a button that says calculate or something like that :p

im still trying to sink the japanese ship in the tutorial mission so if anyone can help me out that would be nice

[LukeFF]

But only one question remains : how do i known the angle on bow there is never a button that says calculate or something like that :p

See this post:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=605059&postcount=2

[E-Rock]

The speed of an entity is the ratio between the distance it travels in a given time over that time.

It doesn't matter whether the entity is spinning around its vertical axis (given by an AOB that changes during that time).

So you only need to send the range&bearing to get a speed estimate.

Yea that makes sense. Thanks for your help!

[baracoeda]

srry but i still dont understand it (mostly because my motherlanguage is dutch)

can somebody explain it really step-by-step with some pictures or something because i just dont get it how to aob.

O and another thing is that in that tutorial mission, the estimated speed is always way to fast. I have to put the stadiometer just down right?

[momo55]

Hey baracoeda welcome to the forum

Hier heb je een link naar videotutorials die je een héél eind op weg zullen helpen :
(here a link to some videotutorials that will help you ....)

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=118923

[Joe S]

Barcaeda,

The angle on the bow is the angle formed by the line of the target's course and the line of sight from you to the target. For example, if the target is heading directly at you the angle on the bow AOB is 0 degrees. If the target is heading straight north, and you hare heading straight west, and the target is right in front of you, the angle on the bow is 90 deg right. The Angle on the Bow is used by the TDC to calculate the target's course so the torpedo gyro angle can be set. you estimate the angle on the bow by clicking on the angle button (the middle one in the upper right hand TDC dial) An outline of a ship appears in the dial. Using the mouse pointer, rotate the ship icon until its orientation matches the target's angle on the bow. If the angle on the bow is 90 right, set the ship icon so it points directly to the right. If the target is comming directly at you , set the ship icon to point straight down, etc. Then click the little button on the top of the dial to send the AOB to the TDC. The position keeper will then show the target ships course on the upper left hand dial I hope this helps. Unfortunately , I am not at my home computer so I cannot post images, hopefully someone else can . Joe S

[Joe S]

I have been running a few "training missions" and tried to use sonar to send range and bearing to TDC. No luck whatsoever in getting accurate readings. I assume its possible based on results that others have posted, so I dont know why it isnt working. Joe S

[baracoeda]

Ok bedankt momo (ondertussen had ik al een filmpje gezien op youtube maar kzal ook es naar die kijken)

I have a question that is not related to the topic but i don't want to start a new topic :p

I just quitted carreer because something was wrong : my torpedo's didnt do any damage!!! :o is anyone familiar with this bug.

Is it also normal that when you dive in shallow water ,you dive true rocks and stuff on the bottom? :huh:

I was so happy when one of my torpedos hitted the target but it didnt do **** :nope:

[AVGWarhawk]

I have been running a few "training missions" and tried to use sonar to send range and bearing to TDC. No luck whatsoever in getting accurate readings. I assume its possible based on results that others have posted, so I dont know why it isnt working. Joe S

You need to ping three or four times and get the average range. Sound travel is unpredictable due to water and other factors. As far as range, I usually dial this in manually by using the sonar alone. These are not dead on for calculations but certainly any small error will be compensated by getting as close as you can to the target.

[Blood_splat]

Can the speed calculation be off if the ship is zigzagging? :confused:

[raduz]

Is it possible to automatically determine correct speed even if my sub is moving?

[maerean_m]

Is it possible to automatically determine correct speed even if my sub is moving?
Yes, the method used to estimate speed works even if your sub is moving (or changing course).

[Luckye]

Well, i've tried this 20 times, every time, after i've sent range to tdc twice, i go to speed and click the click and every time i never get an estimate, all i get is that big stupid clock popping up in middle of my screen.

[maerean_m]

Well, i've tried this 20 times, every time, after i've sent range to tdc twice, i go to speed and click the click and every time i never get an estimate, all i get is that big stupid clock popping up in middle of my screen.
You either
didn't install patch 1.3 (that changed that button from "displaying the clock" to "estimating the speed"). If you place the mouse over that button, the tooltip will probably say "Clock" instead of "Estimate target's speed".
use a mod that is intended for patch 1.2 and modified the "data\menu\menu_1024_768.ini" file, removing the modifications done to it in patch 1.3To determine the version you're using, look in the bottom right corner of the screen in the game's main menu.

[Luckye]

Thanks maeran, i didn't know how to find out what version i had but i thought i downloaded updates when i first tried to get online and assumed i had 1.3, i'll check that out, thanx again.

[GOZO]

Can the speed calculation be off if the ship is zigzagging? :confused:

Yes! definitely. Very much so depending on the distance to target.

On the other hand, if the target zig-zags along a line representing the "mean heading" you get a rough estimate of it´s speed along this axis. (A particle moving).

BUT it will be far far less accurate since you have to mark the target as it passes this line. (Difficult and just an estimation). ;)


You may try magnetic pistol setting the deoth accordingly. hopefully you will get a detonation.

--------------

If it part from just zig-zagging also divert from its "mean heading", well......tough!!!:-?


I try this with varying success;


a) Estimate an interception point perpendicular to target "mean heading"

b) Get close. Less than 500 yds.

c) Set AOB at 45 deg and send to TDC.

d) Lock and wait until bearing is the same value.......aaand

d) Measure range & send to TDC

e) Guess speed & send to TDC (Just set speed on dial and press triangle. can be preset.)

d) Fire salvo with a good spread!

If your speed guess is ok then it might work. The trick is to fire close!!! target filling the scope:o .

Good luck.



/OB

[Tigrone]

Is there any way to manually input range beyond a thousand yards? The range wheel has lugs, which block setting any range much greater. Is the only way to send range to the TDC is by stadimeter, sonar ping, or radar? Isn't there a way to just dial it in?