Muslims

[Onkel Neal]

I may be asking for trouble, but people, please show some taste and sense; Islam is a religon, practiced by people, same as Judaism, Christianity, etc. All religons have some harsh elements in their history and holy books. Just like many modern Jews and Christians, some Muslims ignore those parts. I am not starting a debate on the merits of one religon over another, but come on, for Pete's sake. We know your religon is the one, true path to enlightenment, but don't beat us in the head with it.

Not all Muslims are evil jihadists. Many are uneducated people living in cultural wastelands, sort of like Europe in the Middle Ages. Some are very educated, bright, thoughtful members of society. There are a few we all know in every day life, and on this forum. Show a little respect to your fellow Subsimmer and don't bash his religon (or non-religon) endlessly.

As for the Muslim terrorists and violent activists, I do not excuse them or feel much like tolerating them, but in this forum, be clear and distinguish between those who practice hate and violence, and those who do not.

best,
Neal

[SUBMAN1]

I hear ya, but I don't see any Hindus or Bhudists running around on Jihad! :D That is why no one talks about those other religions. When Islamists run around on Jihad, their fellow Muslims don't even denouce it! That is why everyone trashes on the religion.

-S

[Onkel Neal]

Sure, and I understand that. But we don't have to be just like everyone else.

[Officerpuppy]

As for the Muslim terrorists and violent activists, I do not excuse them or feel much like tolerating them, but in this forum, be clear and distinguish between those who practice hate and violence, and those who do not.

best,
Neal

Hear hear:know:

[dean_acheson]

This would be a good forum to post a link to CAIR's denunciation of 9/11.

Oh, wait.....

[Boris]

I hear ya, but I don't see any Hindus or Bhudists running around on Jihad! :D That is why no one talks about those other religions. When Islamists run around on Jihad, their fellow Muslims don't even denouce it! That is why everyone trashes on the religion.

-S

Don't comment on things you have no idea about. The islamic world is very large and very complex. Who says their 'fellow' Muslims don't denounce the terrorists? I know Muslims who would take offence to being called 'fellows' with terrorists. My Flatmate Kemel doesn't even consider islamic terrorists to be Muslims at all, preferring to think of them as some sort of seperatist sect.

[Letum]

Anyone should be able to come here to engage their enthusiasm for subs without feeling that hostilities are directed at them because of their religion/race/skintone/gender etc.

If I was Islamic I would not find the Subsim forums a welcoming place.
This has to be changed.


I wouldnt mind a total ban on all religion related posts. There are other places to talk about such things.

[Tchocky]

If I was Islamic I would not find the Subsim forums a welcoming place.
qft.

[joea]

If I was Islamic I would not find the Subsim forums a welcoming place. qft.

QFTx2

[Konovalov]

Regarding what Letum said above, I can vouch for that from personal experience. To my knowledge there were half a dozen Subsim members who are Muslim that once populated this forum. However given the tone of these forums towards Muslims and Islam over the last couple of years it is not surprising really that I appear to be the only one left as I haven't heard from or seen any activity from any of these members for quite a few months and in a couple of cases years.

I fully agree with every thing written by Neal in his post. Obviously I could leave this forum because quite often it feels like being beaten over the head time and time again. However I have been a member at Subsim for almost five years and have contributed heavily to the General, Sub Command and SHIII topic forums and for me this is really my online/cyberspace home. At the end of the day we are all sub simmers. :yep:

Regards,

Konovalov. :)

Edit: What is QFT short for?

[Tchocky]

Quoted For Truth

[Konovalov]

Understood. :yep:

[Tchocky]

I wouldnt mind a total ban on all religion related posts.

Aw hang on, I'm having a lot of fun with Buddhism (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b235/LarsenB/enl.jpg)

[Oberon]

Hurrah! The big man speaks what 75% of us have thought.

Whilst I agree that Islam certainly isn't turning out to be a 'religion of peace', it's certainly not been the first, and I doubt very much it'll be the last. We've lost too many members in the General Topics crusades.

[Takeda Shingen]

At the end of the day we are all sub simmers. :yep:

This really comes to the point. This is SUBSIM.com, not politicalcrossfire.com, or politicalhotwire.com or itsallpolitics.com. This is a website for combat simulations, specifically naval and submarine simulations. I have always seen the hierarchy as follows:

Tier 1: SHIV, SHIII, SHII, DW, Sub Command and Classic Subsims
This is why you are here. You typed 'submarine simulations' into Google and ended up at SubSim. We all want the the latest mods, patches and release information, and SubSim is the place for that.

Tier 2: Other Naval Sims, Flight Sims, Other computer sims/games
Hey, most simulation enthusiasts like more than just submarine simulations. I, for example, am an avid MFS player. The 747-400 is my plane of choice. I'll even admit to being a frequent player of Medieval 2, despite its shortcomings. They're still simulations.

Tier 3: General Topics
This is something to do when waiting for SHIV patch 1.3, or GWX 1.04, or the latest DW enhancement from LuftWulf, or when just waiting for that next contact report.

So what's your point, Tak? It's this: Too many people seem to have this inverted. Yes, there is a slot here for political or religious discussion. However, that slot is peripheral at best. This is not a political forum. This can be a place to discuss daily issues, but it is not the place to push your particular political agenda. There are members here for whom this seems to be the primary modus operandi, and this, to me, is backwards.

In short, discuss off topic items at will, but do understand that this forum has a limited scope in that regard, and you are very unlikely to change anyone's mind here. Go to the afforementioned sites for that type of discussion.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Am I in the right forum? This thread is making way too much sense.

PD

[Linton]

"So what's your point, Tak? It's this: Too many people seem to have this inverted. Yes, there is a slot here for political or religious discussion. However, that slot is peripheral at best. This is not a political forum. This can be a place to discuss daily issues, but it is not the place to push your particular political agenda. There are members here for whom this seems to be the primary modus operandi, and this, to me, is backwards.

In short, discuss off topic items at will, but do understand that this forum has a limited scope in that regard, and you are very unlikely to change anyone's mind here. Go to the afforementioned sites for that type of discussion."

That may be your best ever post!!!

[robbo180265]

Neal's post is like a long cool drink of water after a walk in the desert. Why can't we just stay away from the religious and political stuff? We're never going to agree(I've learnt that much in the short time I've been here)

I like the genral topics forum - it's probably my favourite out of all the forums, but the baiting has got to stop. There are plenty of other forums (some of which you'll find me in - same user name) where we can argue, and try to trap each other

Can't we just be friends united in our love of Subsim?

[geetrue]

We could try changing their name from muslims to mum's ... Why?


Because mum's the word :lol:

[cobalt]

finally...............
















wheres waste gate and avon lady on this thread?


i'm sure they object!

[TheBrauerHour]

When I dive I like to have people of all religions with me, that just gives me that much more coverage in the prayer department should things take a turn for the worse!

And on another note, I didn't know QFT stood for Quoted For Truth. I always thought it meant Quite F**king True! :p

[Mush Martin]

Sure, and I understand that. But we don't have to be just like everyone else.


Nice, :up::up: , I agree that your opener is like a cool drink or a breath
of fresh air. whats even cooler is every other post on this thread. Makes
it feel a bit more like a community to me.

it "Feels" like a campaign of dehumanization has been being conducted
on the general threads specifically"
@Cobalt:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

[AVGWarhawk]

I was always told that politics and religion do not mix. I believe I was told correctly.

[Safe-Keeper]

I agree with Neal. While Islamic extremists are responsible for a lot of terrorist activity in the world, not to mention oppression and mutilation of women and repression of democracy, the bashing of fundamentalist Islam, heck, even Islam itself is too overblown on this forum. Even threads not on Muslims are frequently hijacked into arguments on Islam, terrorism, Israel, and BBC-vs-FOX News. It's very apparent to me that 'somebody' have an irrational dislike of Islam and are using this forum to vent it.

Look, if you want to bash fundamentalists non-stop, there are pages like FSTDT (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/www.fstdt.com), RichardDawkins.net (http://richarddawkins.net/), and JihadWatch (http://www.jihadwatch.org/) for that.

So what's your point, Tak? It's this: Too many people seem to have this inverted. Yes, there is a slot here for political or religious discussion. However, that slot is peripheral at best. This is not a political forum. This can be a place to discuss daily issues, but it is not the place to push your particular political agenda. There are members here for whom this seems to be the primary modus operandi, and this, to me, is backwards.Well, I wouldn't mind a single thread on religious fundamentalism, but plastering it all over the fourm is... redundant. To say it in a friendly way;).

[kiwi_2005]

Jesus says "Right On" Neal:up:

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a390/Kiwi_Frank/jesus.jpg

Even the man himself wouldn't mock the other...

[micky1up]

making a mistake confusing islamists with islam they are two seperate entities one is a peacefull religion the other mascarades as religion they use islam to shield what they do and reguardless of wether we do this or that they will continue to attack the west we need to have unity to defeat this but the big problems are the human rights act and the pC brigade in the uk they are helping the terroists:damn:

[Steel_Tomb]

Hmmm...so when over two thousand people died on 9/11 muslims were in the streets cheering and praising Allah how wonderful and mighty he is and we are expected to just wipe it under the carpet? I'm all for supporting a relgion as long as they respect the views of others, but many people in this particular relgion just seem to rip other religions to pieces and then go on a rampage when someone makes something as trivial as a cartoon?? Get a grip! Aye there are a huge number of Muslims which are well educated and kind people...but there are others who aren't as good just like in any walk of life I suppose. The problem is when theres a terrorist act you don't see the Muslim popultation protesting on the streets of London pressing for an end to Jihad and extremism...you will actually probably find them protesting against the Government for something more trivial. This is just my opinion though, and its not flame bait either so we should leave it at that :). I will resepct the fourm rules but I'm not exactly for this. But like I said I will go with what the admins feel is best for the community.

[Heibges]

Hmmm...so when over two thousand people died on 9/11 muslims were in the streets cheering and praising Allah how wonderful and mighty he is and we are expected to just wipe it under the carpet? I'm all for supporting a relgion as long as they respect the views of others, but many people in this particular relgion just seem to rip other religions to pieces and then go on a rampage when someone makes something as trivial as a cartoon?? Get a grip! Aye there are a huge number of Muslims which are well educated and kind people...but there are others who aren't as good just like in any walk of life I suppose. The problem is when theres a terrorist act you don't see the Muslim popultation protesting on the streets of London pressing for an end to Jihad and extremism...you will actually probably find them protesting against the Government for something more trivial. This is just my opinion though, and its not flame bait either so we should leave it at that :). I will resepct the fourm rules but I'm not exactly for this. But like I said I will go with what the admins feel is best for the community.

Actually, the day after 9/11, there was a huge march in Tehran in support of the folks who were killed.

My friend from college who died in 9 11 was originally from Iran.

[Tchocky]

The problem is when theres a terrorist act you don't see the Muslim popultation protesting on the streets of London pressing for an end to Jihad and extremism
You rarely see anyone on the streets protesting Jihadism/extremism, why should UK muslims have to declare their separation from an insane act? Should Americans Jews have marched in protest at the killing of Yitzhak Rabin? Christians march whenever an abortion clinic is attacked?

Tak, you said that changing opinions is well-nigh impossible on this forum. Personally, I think that's why it's getting so much political/polemical traffic.

[Reaves]

There is a quote that explains my feelings on the subject.

I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment. -Malcolm X

There are good and bad people in all countries/religions/races/music taste. Don't blame the many for the actions of the few.

[P_Funk]

I think that the problem of late is that there are so many people here who take the alleged threat of Islam so seriously that discussion about it in anything less than a pat on the back kinda way leads to some very venomous exchanges. I don't think that the subject itself is all that bad. You can make an academic assertion that Islam as a cultural entity is prone to extremism and violence but aside from Skybird I find the perveyors of this point of view to be very stand offish and difficult to actually talk to. You disagree with them and they flame you. Wheres the polite disagreement? Why do I have to be an idiot if that youtube video didn't make me think I should deport everyone named Khalid from my country?

I don't think that subject matter is the issue. I think any subject can be discussed in a civilized way. Real debate isn't primarily about disagreeing, its about exploring ideas and battling intellect. I know every time when I post that I'm not going to change any minds, but I enjoy expressing ideas because in articulating them I begin to know them better and sometimes I'll grow a little just in the process of writing them out a little differently.

I think that the problem is a serious lack of Voltaire in this forum.
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it. If people didn't defend to the death their own right to say whatever it is they're saying then maybe we wouldn't need to be calling for a moratorium on Islam related talk. I for one enjoy talking about it, and its important to hear the differing views on it. But people aren't very cooperative in keeping things civil. Maybe it would help if every anti-Islam thread didn't start with some Nostradamus style prediction.

Thats just my... *checks word count*... dollar twenty-five

[TteFAboB]

The problem is when theres a terrorist act you don't see the Muslim popultation protesting on the streets of London pressing for an end to Jihad and extremism
You rarely see anyone on the streets protesting Jihadism/extremism, why should UK muslims have to declare their separation from an insane act?

Don't misquote him like that, here's the rest of it:

you will actually probably find them protesting against the Government for something more trivial.

It's not about how rarely anyone protests then, it's about the difference in the number or scale of protests by Muslims against jihad or against the government. So the Muslims who do protest do so against the government, and if those are rare, then even more rare are the protests against Jihad.

Should Americans Jews have marched in protest at the killing of Yitzhak Rabin? Christians march whenever an abortion clinic is attacked?


Actually, his funeral was quite an international event and Wikipedia states that "Hundreds of thousands of grieving Israelis thronged the square where Rabin was murdered to mourn his death." Did hundreds of thousands of grieving Muslims ever thronged anywhere in the UK to mourn even a single victim of any terror attack?

But he's talking about the 2,000 deaths at 9/11. Is there an equivalence in one assassination and the number of dead in abortion bombings and murders through the decades? I can't find a good number, let me know if you have one. What I noticed, however, is that there's alot more harassment than bombings and murders. Perhaps that's why the latest attack in the UK was a failure: they were aiming for the harassment statistic to get closer to standing on equal grounds with anti-abortion militants.

Lastly, of course it's important to declare the separation! Both British Muslims and Pro-Life organizations have declared their position regarding terrorism. Murder and terrorism are crimes, not doing so would leave them in the murky waters of condoning or apologizing it. The point (not his) is that this doesn't has to be done by protests, which would be a lost cause anyway as most of the Muslims who protest against the UK simply don't have anything better to do, like work, study or take care of a family, so active and productive Muslims couldn't compete in the streets with them even if they wanted to. Who would skip reading the Koran to play outside? The Imam wouldn't be proud.

[Chock]

I was brought up as a Roman Catholic (I've since completely disowned it by the way), but many of my family are still into it. Nevertheless, when I was young and still going to Church, despite being Catholic, my family were threatened by the IRA (specifically, the threat was because of an open letter which my father wrote to The Times newspaper, the letter being critical of the IRA's actions. I only found out about all this some years later).

My father was a prominent politician, ending up as the Mayor of my home town, which probably had something to do with the threat too. So, in deference to the safety of his family (i.e. me, my sister and my mother), my father shut up about this and also ceased correspondence with the newspaper on the matter, and you can hardly blame him for making that choice, but it must have been difficult for him, as politics were really his thing. What this illustrates is that you can be vocal against people distorting your beliefs, but you better be aware that it will make you a target. So if you find that every time some idiot straps some C4 to himself, supposedly in the name of Islam, and every muslim in the land is not instantly marching in protest about it, just bear in mind why that might be so.

Terrorist bombs in the UK were a regular feature of growing up when I was a kid, so I suspect I'd not have been particularly bothered to know about that threat to me personally, as hardly a week went by without my school or some building getting a bomb threat phoned in by the IRA (and yup, it was a Roman Catholic School I attended too), usually they were just to disrupt things, but every once in a while, some building would go boom. It was something you got used to.

Just as well, since I was caught up in the 3,000 lb bomb which destroyed much of the centre of Manchester in 1996 too. The blast taking out most of the stuff sitting in my in-tray at work at the time. Amazing what you can do with fertisiler and a quick recipe search on the internet.

Now, fast forward to the twenty-first century, and the father of a child to whom I am one of the Godparents was killed in the World Trade Center attack on 9/11. So it seems that acts of terror have been with me most of my life, and in light of recent events in the UK, apparently are continuing the trend. I've merely quoted a few specific events in which terrorism has had a personal effect on mine and my family/friend's lives, and I could certainly quote more, including more friends who have been killed and injured, but you get the general idea.

So as you can imagine, I am certainly no friend of terrorist actions, and I'm not a supporter of any religion at all, as it always seems to stem from that source. But having said all that, I am living proof that not all supporters of a religion condone the actions of those purporting to represent them, even if they are not vocal about it, and nor would I throw a blanket accusation at muslims which suggested they were guilty of it either.

:D Chock

[Iceman]

Politics and Religion topics are for grown ups....Quit being spineless yes men.Neal's point is taken and noted...it is a common sense/golden rule post that should have not needed to be...

Religion,Politics,Race,Creed, or style of bathroom paper used and how many sheets...all just dust in the wind.

Love thy neighbor as thy self.

Love worketh no harm.

Peace...and God,Allah,Buddah, or the Flying spaghetti monster Bless You All :)

[Chock]

My post, and I assume a lot of others too, are not about being 'spineless yes men', rather, seeking to add to the voices which one would hope go some way to show that not everyone who posts on this forum is some kind of Islamaphobe.

It's already been pointed out by several people that muslims seem to have been driven away from this forum by antagonistic threads which lump them all together, and that any visitors of that faith would hardly find subsim looking like a welcoming place if they saw some of the threads which crop up. Standing up and voicing support against that kind of thing is neither spineless nor apparent, it would seem.

That's why I posted on this thread.

:D Chock

[August]

I understand why non radical muslims might be reluctant to put themselves and their families on someones death list by speaking out but what they need to realize is ultimately they are the only ones who can stop terrorism from being done in the name of their religion.

No one else can distinguish friend from foe, radical influence from peaceful, good from evil in their culture. Certanly not with anything approaching the degree of success it would require not to prepetuate the cycle of hatred and violence that creates new generations of suicide bombers.

[Jimbuna]

Peace...and God,Allah,Buddah, or the Flying spaghetti monster Bless You All

Amen :up:

[Skybird]

Against such iron determination, as displayed in this thread,

- to ignore essential aspects of reality, or an issue at question,

- to gloss over unwelcomed grim truths that nevertheless can be proven black on white, and can be proven by comparing history and present to theology and basic scriptures, and can be proven by present observations, and even statistical and academical analysis of which we have an academical tradition ranging back decades and even centuries, having produced a great ammount of literature dealing with questions of oriental and Islamic studies,

- not to take note of straight and shameless declarations of hostility by the other,

- and not listening to warnings from insiders and members of the other'S community whom one should want to assume that they know it better than most others,

- to relativize one thing by endlessly comparing it to another thing that by nature, structure and content in no way is comparable;

all argument, all reason, all innocence of simple facts and academical analysis collected over years and decades - is helpless. Man is vulnerable to a practice of if repeating one untrue thing just often enough, one will finally believe that it is nevertheless the truth.

One can only shake his head in frustration. Maybe this forum is not the right place for such discussions, but the ammount of ignorrance and lacking knowledge that nevertheless claims the right to be taken as serious argument is simply demoralizing.

Of course always with the best of intentions. As if one could buy anything for good intentions alone.

What you consider to be your virtues, is nothing but weakness in the face of an enemy who throughout his existence always only knew the language of strength. What you consider to be good intentions, is ignorrance. What you consider to be peaceful coexistence, is phlegmatism in the face of a threat. That you allow your own rules, laws and standards being turnedagainst you and paralyse you, is your stupidity. All together, this will seal your fall.

I wish you a happy appeasing. You must not fear that you will hear much more on all this from me anymore. In past months I already have drastically reduced according threads started by me, and limited myself to react to threads by others. This I will not do anymore, too. If it is said that religion is allowed to talk about, but only on the basis that all religions are of equal value and quality, and by rejecting any differences, and if one can only talk about it on the basis of seriously distorting and nicetalking it and ignoring both the long tradition of academical analysis we had in the West until some 40-50 years ago, and the loud warning signals we see today, then a true open discours or discussion is not possible anymore, and the permission to debate is limited to small-talking about a carricature of the real thing only - not including the thing itself.

I regret that the bad behavior of some, and the sometimes flooding of the board with these kinds of threads (of which I, like others, have sometimes been guilty in the past, too, I must admit) led to this conflict now. Nevertheless, the way it is settled now, is nothing else but another one of so very many small micro-victories in the advance of Islam, for talking about Islam's reality now is considered uncorrect by board policies. I totally refuse to assist in such actions in my real life, so how could I seriously be expected to do any different than to refuse that in my online-activities as well? At least that is more honest a position of mine than the creeping around potentially conflicting issues that has become so very much a modern habit in present politics, and social behavior as well.

The cleanest solution would be to simply forbid political and religious discussions all together. No pro and no contra on a forbidden issue. that would be pragmatic. That is what I would do, and it is much better than to allow only distorted discussions making ridicule of themselves.

[XabbaRus]

Sky I think you miss the point. This isn't against rational debate on the subject but recently there have been several threads started with what is blatantley racist posting which makes one wonder what sort of people are now coming to subsim forum.

also some of these "inside" people have their own personal agenda which they attempt to push as much as possible.

I do agree there is a PC attitude which makes it difficult to go after these madmen but to attack a whole religion and lump every single one of them into the same group as the terrorists is absurd.

[Skybird]

Sky I think you miss the point. This isn't against rational debate on the subject but recently there have been several threads started with what is blatantley racist posting which makes one wonder what sort of people are now coming to subsim forum.

also some of these "inside" people have their own personal agenda which they attempt to push as much as possible.

I do agree there is a PC attitude which makes it difficult to go after these madmen but to attack a whole religion and lump every single one of them into the same group as the terrorists is absurd.

I do not miss the point, I refer simply to Neal's opening, some replies here, and last but not least an interesting talking I just have had with Takeda two days ago. Since that was private PM, I cannot comment on that in public, only saying he generally hinted at some implications of the board rules as he sees them, with which I cannot agree, that's why I refuse to accept these discussion rules on certain issues and instead encourages to ban such diuscussion at all. Some more PMs from different people in the last days as well, because of WG, in which they also commented on the general mood in the GT forum.

I somewhat disagree with your last paragraph, since you rule out that the religion has something to do with the violence and cannot be seen as the source of it by educating this mindset that opportunistically accepts and even demands violence, but as I just said above: I refuse to go on that issue anymore, and leave you people to the consequences of your well-meaningness. It has been covered more than once anyway.

[Onkel Neal]

It's not appeasing, it's declining to paint every Muslim with the same brush. I apply the same approach to people who label every Christian as narrow-minded or all Germans as inclined to facsim.

[Chock]

From Skybird:

I regret that the bad behavior of some, and the sometimes flooding of the board with these kinds of threads (of which I, like others, have sometimes been guilty in the past, too, I must admit) led to this conflict now.

And yet despite the regret, and seeing the effect your stance has, you continue:

Nevertheless, the way it is settled now, is nothing else but another one of so very many small micro-victories in the advance of Islam, for talking about Islam's reality now is considered uncorrect by board policies. I totally refuse to assist in such actions in my real life, so how could I seriously be expected to do any different than to refuse that in my online-activities as well?

So apparently you are also 'the one who soars' conveniently past the consequences of what you say and have said. I'm sure that makes you a blast at social gatherings, but one thing I'm not sure of, is how refusing to make a sweeping generalisation about every muslim is going to result in some sort of ultimate Islamic victory. And refusing to do so is hardly the same as rolling over and surrendering to terrorism, as you seem to imply with suggestions of ignorance for refusing to be part of some anti-Islamic lynch mob.

So unless you take the view that - just to avoid being partisan - we perhaps ought to round up everyone in Germany just on the offchance that there might be one or two Nazi sympathisers kicking about, or maybe kill everyone in China to make sure we get those responsible for the Tiananmen Square massacre, then I fail to see the justification for targeting someone's faith in order to get some bad apples who claim to represent it, even if I do think that faith (as I do all others) is nonsense myself. And that is all this thread is directed toward, not some notion of appeasing scumbags, Islamic or otherwise, either on a thread or in the real world. Slam Islamic terrorists and their supporters all you want, fine by me, but please put the tar brush away.

Or maybe we should Nuke the planet from orbit? After all, it's the only way to be sure...

:D Chock

[U-533]

I heard on the radio, just last Thursday I believe it was, that 1/3 of the worlds population is Muslim.

So if there are 6.2 billion people on this dirt ball, that means 3 billion are Muslim... is that right?

Now from what I have been told 20% of that 3 billion are the radical kill the infidel type Muslim...so lets see that is...

Holy Cow... 600million radical Muslim terrorist...is that right? Thats twice the USA's population... did'nt the USA just make 330million mark in population?

OK Okok ... thats just to high of a figure I cannot believe there are 600million kill the infidel type Muslims out there........ lets just go with half all that...

Thats 300milli.......?

no no no ... gotta be less than that!

UMMm... half that....

150million..........no I cant handle that figure either ...

I cant believe there are 150million people who will kill you for being a nonMuslim...

lets half that

75million

no still to high

half that again

35million

NOWAY!!! no religion is gonna have that many whackos out there blowing themselves up , it would not be civil.

half that again

15Million

Can't be ... just noway will I believe there are 15million people waiting to kill me.

So... half that again...

7Million..........................

yeah right ha ha...

half that again....

3 million

that can't be.... there are not 3 million people that want to kill me

I WILL NOT BELIEVE THAT


MY REALITY WILL NOT HANDLE THIS FIGURE

ok ok ok just half it again

1.5mill........................ ? round that down to 1 million

ok 1 million

I don't know ,still sounds to high to me...

Arbitrarily :hmm: :hmm: lets go with 100,000

Just a hundred thousand... ok ...outta that theres been what 10,000 killed or imprisoned... since 9/11

That still leaves 90,000 to deal with....

90 thousand... 90 t h o u s a n d . . . ...................

thats a big army but half of them are disorganized and dont have the training YET to carry out missions...

45,000....

ok ...1/2 that... cause they don't have the finacial backing YET to carry out attacks

20,000...:hmm:

Well ,I think this figure may scare to many people in to action.

So .. lets just go with 1

1 nutjob, whacko, who is Muslim and willing to strap on explosives and kill you...

Just 1.

1

1 folks....1

Ok I can handle this figure.

We got 1 more nutjob gonna go to virgin town on your death...

Who is it?

-------------

I have just been informed there are only 1 billion Muslims in the world.

So just find the one that is the threat.

[Tchocky]

1/3 of 6 billion is not 3 billion

There are around 1 billion Muslims in the world.

[P_Funk]

1/3 of 6 billion is not 3 billion

There are around 1 billion Muslims in the world.
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

I was gonna say something scathing and witty but damn.

[U-533]

1/3 of 6 billion is not 3 billion

There are around 1 billion Muslims in the world.

Thank you, Tchocky.

My humble applogies for this mistake.

Just half all the figures again and round that off.


:sunny: :sunny: :sunny: :sunny:

[U-533]

1/3 of 6 billion is not 3 billion

There are around 1 billion Muslims in the world.
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

I was gonna say something scathing and witty but damn.

Go ahead!

Theres still one nutjob whacko Muslim wanting to kill you.

Is it the one behind the counter at the "Quicky shop"?

Maybe it's the one in the taxi your riding in...

Could be the one in the hospital giving you an injection....

hmm ... could be it's the one on the train with you....

What ever or who ever it is ... there still be 1 left

I hope the other peaceful Muslims will point it out before anything happens.

[Tchocky]

'What are you doing?'

Oh, nothing. Exhuming McCarthy.

[P_Funk]

'What are you doing?'

Oh, nothing. Exhuming McCarthy.
I love you.:rotfl:

[robbo180265]

'What are you doing?'

Oh, nothing. Exhuming McCarthy.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[PeriscopeDepth]

Go ahead!

Theres still one nutjob whacko Muslim wanting to kill you.

Is it the one behind the counter at the "Quicky shop"?

Maybe it's the one in the taxi your riding in...

Could be the one in the hospital giving you an injection....

hmm ... could be it's the one on the train with you....

What ever or who ever it is ... there still be 1 left

I hope the other peaceful Muslims will point it out before anything happens.
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Quick! You seem to have left one well known Islamist hiding place out!




































CHECK UNDER YOUR BED AS WELL!

PD

[waste gate]

I think I'm within the rules here.

More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined.
http://www.crisismagazine.com/october2003/madden.htm

Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years. http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingyear.html

More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland. .http://http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/death95w.htm (http://http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/death95w.htm)

19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed between 1608 and 1987http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/ESPYdate.pdf

[geetrue]

I heard on the radio, just last Thursday I believe it was, that 1/3 of the worlds population is Muslim.

So if there are 6.2 billion people on this dirt ball, that means 3 billion are Muslim... is that right?

-------------

I have just been informed there are only 1 billion Muslims in the world.

So just find the one that is the threat.

There are over one billion catholic's in the world too, with over 700,000,000 of them in South America alone. I know this will shock you, but I use to be a janitor in a Catholic church.
Yep, little ole me ... they like to hire christians or something, because I have never followed that particular faith.

Just jesus ... :yep:

I ask this simple question: How many automobiles, trucks, planes, ships, trains, computers, modern electronics, house hold applances do you pocess that a strictly muslim country has built and sold in the market places of the world?

[Konovalov]

This thread appears to have gone wildly off topic depsite the owner of this websites best intentions. What was a simple and easy to understand appeal for a little bit of civility, balance, and reason from Neal has just become another of the typical threads indicative of what has gone on here for the last couple of years. If the above post above from Waste gate isn't the clearest example of how this thread by Neal has been hijacked I don't know what is. Can't we just give this thing a f...k..g rest for a while please?

[geetrue]

Okay you win ... Konovalov

I went back and read the thread heading about Muslim's and found this quote:

I am not starting a debate on the merits of one religon over another, but come on, for Pete's sake. We know your religon is the one, true path to enlightenment, but don't beat us in the head with it.


I'll be more careful of what is hidden in my soul and won't stop bubbling out sometimes, sorry. :oops:

[waste gate]

This thread appears to have gone wildly off topic depsite the owner of this websites best intentions. What was a simple and easy to understand appeal for a little bit of civility, balance, and reason from Neal has just become another of the typical threads indicative of what has gone on here for the last couple of years. If the above post above from Waste gate isn't the clearest example of how this thread by Neal has been hijacked I don't know what is. Can't we just give this thing a f...k..g rest for a while please?

How did I hijack the thread? My name was invoked twice before I made any comment and my use of the word Islamist clearly distiguishes the difference between the 900 million -1.3 billion Muslims world wide and the 10% of Islamists who wish us/me ill.

The animosity shown to myself and others of the same opinion, in swarm attacks, only shows that we must be onto something.

PS I'm being much more circumspect than another poster whom you seem to can find no issue with regardless of the opinion. You know of whom I speak. Look at his post and tell me again that I hijacked this thread.

[P_Funk]

In the 10 years that the CIA funded the CONTRA terrorist campaign in Nicaragua 50 thousand people died, which would be 2% of the population. In the US that would be 4.5 million people.

Statistics can make any side sound right.:up:

[Tchocky]

please show some taste and sense

"Help, help! I'm being oppressed!"

[fatty]

This thread appears to have gone wildly off topic depsite the owner of this websites best intentions. What was a simple and easy to understand appeal for a little bit of civility, balance, and reason from Neal has just become another of the typical threads indicative of what has gone on here for the last couple of years. If the above post above from Waste gate isn't the clearest example of how this thread by Neal has been hijacked I don't know what is. Can't we just give this thing a f...k..g rest for a while please?

Good post Konovalov. Lots of ideas presented here are interesting and deserve merit, but unfortunately our commander-in-chief was not requesting input on this subject. He made a reasonable request, and there shouldn't really be any ifs, ands, or buts about it.

[Konovalov]

..our commander-in-chief was not requesting input on this subject. He made a reasonable request, and there shouldn't really be any ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Exactly. :yep:

[waste gate]

This thread appears to have gone wildly off topic depsite the owner of this websites best intentions. What was a simple and easy to understand appeal for a little bit of civility, balance, and reason from Neal has just become another of the typical threads indicative of what has gone on here for the last couple of years. If the above post above from Waste gate isn't the clearest example of how this thread by Neal has been hijacked I don't know what is. Can't we just give this thing a f...k..g rest for a while please?

Good post Konovalov. Lots of ideas presented here are interesting and deserve merit, but unfortunately our commander-in-chief was not requesting input on this subject. He made a reasonable request, and there shouldn't really be any ifs, ands, or buts about it.

I won't disagree with the original purpose of the thread. Just the supposition that I was the one to hijack it and my opinion is less legitimate than any other which has been posted.

I'll say it again I didn't hijack this thread but I will follow it where it goes.

[cobalt]

my opinion is less legitimate than any other which has been posted.

right on

[robbo180265]

This thread appears to have gone wildly off topic depsite the owner of this websites best intentions. What was a simple and easy to understand appeal for a little bit of civility, balance, and reason from Neal has just become another of the typical threads indicative of what has gone on here for the last couple of years. If the above post above from Waste gate isn't the clearest example of how this thread by Neal has been hijacked I don't know what is. Can't we just give this thing a f...k..g rest for a while please?

Good post Konovalov. Lots of ideas presented here are interesting and deserve merit, but unfortunately our commander-in-chief was not requesting input on this subject. He made a reasonable request, and there shouldn't really be any ifs, ands, or buts about it.

:up: :up: :up:

[waste gate]

my opinion is less legitimate than any other which has been posted.

right on

Thanks cobalt. That was incredably out of context. Shame on you:nope:

[Takeda Shingen]

my opinion is less legitimate than any other which has been posted.

right on

Knock it off. We've talked about this type of behavior before.

[P_Funk]

my opinion is less legitimate than any other which has been posted.
right on
Thanks cobalt. That was incredably out of context. Shame on you:nope: For the sake of civility I gotta side with WG here. I already quoted Voltaire once in this thread. I can't very well be a complete hypocrit now, at least not in the same thread.;)

[micky1up]

Hmmm...so when over two thousand people died on 9/11 muslims were in the streets cheering and praising Allah how wonderful and mighty he is and we are expected to just wipe it under the carpet? I'm all for supporting a relgion as long as they respect the views of others, but many people in this particular relgion just seem to rip other religions to pieces and then go on a rampage when someone makes something as trivial as a cartoon?? Get a grip! Aye there are a huge number of Muslims which are well educated and kind people...but there are others who aren't as good just like in any walk of life I suppose. The problem is when theres a terrorist act you don't see the Muslim popultation protesting on the streets of London pressing for an end to Jihad and extremism...you will actually probably find them protesting against the Government for something more trivial. This is just my opinion though, and its not flame bait either so we should leave it at that :). I will resepct the fourm rules but I'm not exactly for this. But like I said I will go with what the admins feel is best for the community.


so your going to tarnish an entire religion of hundreds of millions because of a few thousand fanatics well even in america there a few thousand neo nazi's should i blame the entirity of america for those few

[HunterICX]

my opinion is less legitimate than any other which has been posted.
right on
Knock it off. We've talked about this type of behavior before.

and that doesnt going to change, as soon if there is a religious thread..bingo!

[Takeda Shingen]

I'm not going to get involved in any topical discussion. However, I would like to point out that waste gate did not hijack this thread. It was off-topic by the middle of page two. Furthermore, his name was mentioned several times, and not in a very flattering context. If I were him, I would also have replied.

You don't have to like people's politics, but let's be fair. You don't have to gang up on someone over nothing. In fact, you shouldn't gang up on people on this forum at all. Let's be nice.

[U-533]

(Checking under his bed)

Whew! Forgot that place.

[Onkel Neal]

1/3 of 6 billion is not 3 billion

There are around 1 billion Muslims in the world.

Edited, I think the point was already made well enough :oops:

[Onkel Neal]

1/3 of 6 billion is not 3 billion

There are around 1 billion Muslims in the world.
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

I was gonna say something scathing and witty but damn.

Go ahead!

Theres still one nutjob whacko Muslim wanting to kill you.

Is it the one behind the counter at the "Quicky shop"?

Maybe it's the one in the taxi your riding in...

Could be the one in the hospital giving you an injection....

hmm ... could be it's the one on the train with you....

What ever or who ever it is ... there still be 1 left

I hope the other peaceful Muslims will point it out before anything happens.

There a lot of common variety nutjobs out there (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/07/07/america/NA-GEN-US-Gang-Rape-Teens.php), so what? In the USA, so does that make Americans seething monsters?

[HunterICX]

1/3 of 6 billion is not 3 billion

There are around 1 billion Muslims in the world.
Ha ha! :lol:

http://home.wanadoo.nl/greatwar14-18/Shot%20Down%20In%20Flames.jpg

:oNeal! I said do not publish that picture......:dead:

[fredbass]

I'm not going to get involved in any topical discussion. However, I would like to point out that waste gate did not hijack this thread. It was off-topic by the middle of page two. Furthermore, his name was mentioned several times, and not in a very flattering context. If I were him, I would also have replied.

You don't have to like people's politics, but let's be fair. You don't have to gang up on someone over nothing. In fact, you shouldn't gang up on people on this forum at all. Let's be nice.

You are a very fair man, Takeda.

[geetrue]

To heck with the muslims ...

I'm only going to say this one time:


"San Diego Chargers are going to the Super Bowl"

Is that a hi-jack if I mentioned muslims first?

[Takeda Shingen]

"San Diego Chargers are going to the Super Bowl"

Yes, indeed. They will be sitting together in section C-21, with good access to the nacho stand.

[P_Funk]

I'll make you a deal geetrue. I'll root for the Chargers next NFL season if you root for the Canucks next NHL season. :D

[The Avon Lady]

wheres waste gate and avon lady on this thread?


i'm sure they object!
Here. Hope you're happy.

My one and only post on this thread.

Neal, I would have thought you knew better.

Skybird, everything you said. Repeat as necessary. It's threads like this that make me appreciate your current sig's quote much more.

I'll end off with a quote from Karl Popper's The Open Society and Its Enemies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Open_Society_and_Its_Enemies), chapter 7:

Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance.
If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant,
if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught
of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.

In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always
suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can
counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public
opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should
claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may
easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of
rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may
forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is
deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their
fists or pistols.

We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to
tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching
intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider
incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way
as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the
revival of the slave trade, as criminal.

And that's that. :roll:

[Skybird]

Supplementing AL's quoting of Popper, I (for the seocnd time in the past years, I think) give this little gem by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in my inadequate translation (at the end).

Bonhoeffer was an evangelic theologist participating in the resistance against hitler. For his convictions he was arrested in 1943, and murdered in 1945. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer

Both indiscriminately tolerant Westerners and followers of religious dogmas should feel adressed.


Dummheit ist ein gefährlicherer Feind des Guten als Bosheit. Gegen das Böse läßt sich protestieren, es läßt sich bloßstellen, es läßt sich notfalls mit Gewalt verhindern, das Böse trägt immer den Keim der Selbstzerstörung in sich, indem es mindestens ein Unbehagen im Menschen zurückläßt. Gegen die Dummheit sind wir wehrlos. Weder mit Protesten noch mit Gewalt läßt sich hier etwas ausrichten; Gründe verfangen nicht; Tatsachen, die dem eigenen Vorurteil widersprechen, brauchen einfach nicht geglaubt zu werden – in solchen Fällen wird der Dumme sogar kritisch -, und wenn sie unausweichlich sind, können sie einfach als nichtssagende Einzelfälle beiseite geschoben werden. Dabei ist der Dumme im Unterschied zum Bösen restlos mit sich selbst zufrieden; ja, er wird sogar gefährlich, indem er leicht gereizt zum Angriff übergeht. Daher ist dem Dummen gegenüber mehr Vorsicht geboten als gegenüber dem Bösen. Niemals werden wir mehr versuchen, den Dummen durch Gründe zu überzeugen; es ist sinnlos und gefährlich.
Um zu wissen, wie wir der Dummheit beikommen können, müssen wir ihr Wesen zu verstehen versuchen. Soviel ist sicher, daß sie nicht wesentlich ein intellektueller, sondern ein menschlicher Defekt ist. Es gibt intellektuell außerordentlich bewegliche Menschen, die dumm sind, und intellektuell sehr schwerfällige, die alles andere als dumm sind. Diese Entdeckung machen wir zu unserer Überraschung anläßlich bestimmter Situationen. Dabei gewinnt man weniger den Eindruck, daß die Dummheit ein angeborener Defekt ist, als daß unter bestimmten Umständen die Menschen dumm gemacht werden, bzw. sich dumm machen lassen. Wir beobachten weiterhin, daß abgeschlossen und einsam lebende Menschen diesen Defekt seltener zeigen als zur Gesellung neigende oder verurteilte Menschen und Menschengruppen.So scheint die Dummheit vielleicht weniger ein psychologisches als ein soziologisches Problem zu sein. Sie ist eine besondere Form der Einwirkung geschichtlicher Umstände auf den Menschen, eine psychologische Begleiterscheinung bestimmter äußerer Verhältnisse.
Bei genauem Hinsehen zeigt sich, daß jede starke, äußere Machtentfaltung, sei sie politischer oder religiöser Art, einen großen Teil der Menschen mit Dummheit schlägt. Ja, es hat den Anschein, als sei dies geradezu ein soziologisch-psychologisches Gesetz. Die Macht der einen braucht die Dummheit der anderen. Der Vorgang ist dabei nicht der, daß bestimmte – also etwa intellektuelle – Anlagen des Menschen plötzlich verkümmern oder ausfallen, sondern daß unter dem überwältigenden Eindruck der Machtentfaltung dem Menschen seine innere Selbstständigkeit geraubt wird und daß dieser nun – mehr oder weniger unbewußt – darauf verzichtet, zu den sich ergebenden Lebenslagen ein eigenes Verhalten zu finden. Daß der Dumme oft bockig ist, darf nicht darüber hinweg täuschen, daß er nicht selbstständig ist. Man spürt es geradezu im Gespräch mit ihm, daß man es gar nicht mit ihm selbst, mit ihm persönlich, sondern mit über ihn mächtig gewordenen Schlagworten, Parolen etc. zu tun hat. Er ist in einem Banne, er ist verblendet, er ist in seinem eigenen Wesen mißbraucht, mißhandelt. So zum willenlosen Instrument geworden, wir der Dumme auch zu allem Bösen fähig sein und zugleich unfähig, dies als Böses zu erkennen. Dadurch werden Menschen für immer zugrunde gerichtet werden können.

Translation:

Stupidity is a more dangerous enemy to the good than is evil. Against evil one can protest, it can be exposed, if necessary it can be prevented by the use of force, the evil always carries the seed of it's own self-destruction inside itself, in the way that it always, at least, leaves a certain uneasiness in man. But against stupidity we are defenseless. Neither protest nor violence can achieve something; reasons and arguments don't get thought about, facts that are contradicting one's own prejudice simply must not be believed - in such cases the stupid even becomes critical -, and if it cannot be avoided to accept them nevertheless, they get cleaned off the table as unimportant exceptions/isolated cases. At the same time the stupid, different to the evil one, is completely satisfied with himself; he even becomes dangerous by going on the attack when being irritated. Therefore, when dealing with the stupid, more caution is needed than when dealing the evil one. Never again we will try to convince the stupid by reasons and arguments, it is in vain, and dangerous.
In order to know how we could deal with stupidity, we need to understand it's essential nature. So much is sure: that it is not so much an intellectual deficit, but a human defect. There are very intellectual people, who are stupid, and there are people who intellectually are a bit slow, but in no way are stupid. to our surprise, we make this discovery on the occasion of certain situations, where we get the impression that stupidity is not so much an innate defect, but that under certain conditions humans are being made stupid, or rather allow to be turned into stupids. Further we observe that that isolated and lonely living people tend less often towards this defect, than people that tend to live or are forced to live in a more social and group-oriented manner. So, stupidity seems to be less a psychological and more a sociological problem. It is a special form of influence of historical conditions that affects man, a psychological inner concomitant of certain outer conditions. Looking closer at it, it becomes clear that every kind of outer display of power, wether it be of political or religious nature, makes a huge part of the people to be dumb , even more, it almost seems to be a sociological-psychological law. the power of the one - needs the stupidity of the other. the process is not that certain inherent predispositions suddenly get stunted, or fail completely, but that by the overwhelming impression of the display of power man gets stripped of his inner independence, so that from now on he - more or less subconsciously - declines to find his own behavior towards the emerging different challenges and situations of his daily life. That the stupid often is stubborn cannot hide the fact that he is lacking in independence. One almost feels it when talking with him, that one is not dealing with himself, but with catch-phrases and slogans. He is under a spell, he is blinded, in his own nature he is abused and mistreated. Being turned into a tool without will, the stupid is able to do all evil things, at the same time being unable to realise the evil in his deeds. In this way, man can be destroyed forever.



A friend is a gift to a friend
not from the heavy soil where blood and
race and oaths are mighty and holy,
where the earth itself watches over the sacred
hallowed and ancient ordinances
and defends and avenges them,
not from the heavy soil of the earth,
but from free choice and the free desire
of the heart, which are not in need of
an oath or a law.

Nicht aus dem schweren Boden
wo Blut und Geschlecht und Schwur
mächtig und heilig sind,
wo die Erde selbst
gegen Wahnsinn und Frevel
die geweihten heilgen uralten Ordnungen
hütet und schützt und rächt, —
nicht aus dem schweren Boden der Erde,
sondern aus freiem Gefallen
und freiem Verlangen des Geistes,
der nicht des Eides und des Gesetzes bedarf,
wird der Freund dem Freunde geschenkt.

[Dowly]

Religion? Bah.. I just quote a friend of mine "Religion sickens me". Come one! It's like believing that Santa Claus really exists!

BIG BANG FTW!! :rock:

[Happy Times]

“What should the free world do while facing Islamist intimidation?” – wrote Robert Redeker, a French philosophy teacher and writer. His op-ed article, published by Le Figaro in Paris on September 19, 2006 resulted in many death-threats, directed at its author for his alleged “defamation of Islam and of Prophet Mohammed”.




What should the free world do while facing Islamist intimidation?


By Robert Redeker


The reactions caused by Benedict XVI’s analysis of Islam and violence highlight the underhanded maneuver carried out by Islam to stifle what the West values more than anything, and which does not exist in any Moslem country: freedom of thought and expression.

Islam tries to impose its rules on Europe: opening of public swimming pools at certain hours reserved exclusively for women, ban on caricaturing this religion, demands for special diets for Muslim children in school cafeterias, struggle to impose the veil at school, accusations of Islamophobia against free spirits.

How can one explain the ban on the wearing thongs on Paris-Beaches (Paris-plages) this summer? The reasoning put forth was bizarre: women wearing thongs would risk “disturbing the peace”. Did this mean that bands of frustrated youths would become violent while being offended by displays of beauty? Or were the authorities scared of Islamist demonstrations by “virtue squads” near Paris-Beaches?

However, the authorization of the veil on the street is more disturbing to public peace than wearing a thong, because it invites complaints against the upholding the oppression of women .This ban represents an Islamization of sensibilities in France, a more or less conscious submission to the diktats of Islam. At the very least it is the result of the insidious Muslim pressure on the minds: even those who protested the introduction of a “Jean Paul II Square” in Paris would not be opposed to the construction of mosques. Islam is trying to force Europe to yield to its vision of humanity.

As in the past with Communism, the West finds itself under ideological watch. Islam presents itself, like defunct Communism, as an alternative to the Western world. In the way of Communism before it, Islam, to conquer spirits, plays on a sensitive string. It prides itself on a legitimacy which troubles Western conscience, which is attentive to others: it claims to be the voice of the oppressed of the planet. Yesterday, the voice of the poor supposedly came from Moscow, today it originates in Mecca! Again, today, western intellectuals incarnate the eye of the Koran, as they have incarnated the eye of Moscow. They now excommunicate people because of Islamophobia, as they did before because of anti-communism.

This opening to others, specific to the West, is a secularization of Christianity that can be summarized thus: the other person must come before me. The Westerner, heir to Christianity, is that who exposes his soul bare. He runs the risk of being seen as weak. With the same ardor as Communism, Islam treats generosity, broadmindedness, tolerance, gentleness, women’s liberty and freedom of manners, democratic values, as marks of decadence. They are weaknesses that it seeks to exploit, by means of useful idiots, self-righteous consciences drowning in nice feelings, in order to impose the Koranic order on the Western world itself.

The Koran is a book of unparalleled violence. Maxime Rodinson states, in Encyclopedia Universalis, some truths that in France are as significant as they are taboo. On one hand: “Mohammed revealed in Medina unsuspected qualities as political leader and military chief (…) He resorted to private war, by then a prevalent custom in Arabia (….) Mohammed soon sent small groups of partisans to attack the Meccan caravans, thus punishing his unbelieving compatriots and simultaneously acquiring the booty of a wealthy man.”

There is more: “Mohammed profited from this success by eradicating the Jewish tribe which resided in Medina, the Quarayza, whom he accused of suspect behavior.” And: “After the death of Khadija, he married a widow, a good housewife, called Sawda, and in addition to the little Aisha, barely ten years old. His erotic predilections, held in check for a long time, led him to ten simultaneous marriages.”

A merciless war chief, plunderer, slaughterer of Jews and a polygamist, such is the man revealed through the Koran.

Oh, the Catholic Church is not above reproach. Its history is strewn with dark pages, for which it has officially repented. The Inquisition, the hounding of witches, the execution of the philosophers Giordano Bruno and Vanini, those wrong-thinking Epicureans, in the 18th century the execution of the knight of La Barre for impiety, do not plead in the church’s favor. But what differentiates Christianity from Islam is obvious: it is always possible to go back to true evangelical values, the peaceful character of Jesus as opposed to the deviations of the Church.

None of the faults of the Church have their roots in the Gospel. Jesus is non-violent. Going back to Jesus is akin to forswear the excesses of the Church. Going back to Mahomet, to the contrary, reinforces hate and violence. Jesus is a master of love, Mahomet is a master of hatred.

The stoning of Satan, each year in Mecca, is not only an obsolete superstition. It not only sets the stage for a hysterical crowd flirting with barbarity. Its imports anthropological. Here is a rite, which each Muslim is invited to submit to, that emphasizes violence as a sacred duty in the very heart of the believer.

This stoning, accompanied each year by the accidental trampling to death of some of the believers, sometimes up to several hundreds, is a rite that feeds archaic violence.

Instead of getting rid of this archaic violence, and thus imitating Judaism and Christianity (Judaism starts when it abandons human sacrifice, and enters civilization; Christianity transforms sacrifice through the Eucharist), Islam builds a nest for this violence, where it will incubate. Whereas Judaism and Christianity are religions whose rites spurn violence, by de-legitimizing it, Islam is a religion that exalts violence and hatred in its everyday rites and sacred book.

Hatred and violence dwell in the book with which every Muslim is brought up, the Koran. As in the Cold War, where violence and intimidation were the methods used by an ideology hell bent on hegemony, so today Islam tries to put its leaden mantel all over the world. Benedict XVI’s cruel experience is testimony to this. Nowadays, the West has to be called the “free world” in comparison to the Muslim world; likewise, the enemies of the “free world”, the zealous bureaucrats of the Koran’s vision, swarm in the very center of the free World.

And yes, thats that.:down:

[The Avon Lady]

Must make small comment:
Judaism starts when it abandons human sacrifice, and enters civilization
Sorry, Mr. Redeker. Judaism never advocated human sacrifice. See, for example, The Binding (http://www.aish.com/torahportion/moray/The_Binding.asp).

[Onkel Neal]

wheres waste gate and avon lady on this thread?


i'm sure they object!
Here. Hope you're happy.

My one and only post on this thread.

Neal, I would have thought you knew better.


I'll end off with a quote from Karl Popper's The Open Society and Its Enemies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Open_Society_and_Its_Enemies), chapter 7:

Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance.
If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant,
if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught
of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.


I'll gladly take this opportunity to disagree but still respect your opinion. :) and you. In addition, let me set that strawman afire and point out that in no way do I advocate "unlimted tolerance". I'm still unhappy with the silence of mainstream Mulsims when it comes to this struggle, and I am in favor of what some call radical de-immigration policies in Western nations. If people cannot accept Western culture while living in a Western country, send them back to their holy land.

I didn't start this thread to discuss those topics, nor to get into Jewish religous history or the merits of one religon vs another (religon being where people believe in supreme beings, sacred texts, supernatural miracles, afterlife, etc). There are Muslims who have no quarrel with us and who are us, so why alienate them in public discussions?

cheers
Neal

[bradclark1]

There are Muslims who have no quarrel with us and who are us, so why alienate them in public discussions?

That actually says it best, in a blanket kind of way.

[U-533]

I'm still unhappy with the silence of mainstream Mulsims when it comes to this struggle, and I am in favor of what some call radical de-immigration policies in Western nations. If people cannot accept Western culture while living in a Western country, send them back to their holy land.




I agree.
You have hit the nail on the thumb.

I want to know why the so called Mainstream Muslims who say they want peace won't point a finger at a nutjob-Muslim.
I have my ideas why.
I have read others ideas why.

I guess I just need to hear it from one of the fore mentioned Muslims.

WHY.


======

Now I ask this. Not to just Neal.

Do you think Western culture in a Western country should be made to change to accommodate a minority?

Careful now... This slope is long and slippery.

[Skybird]

There are Muslims who have no quarrel with us and who are us, so why alienate them in public discussions?

a.) Your thinking behind that argument stands or falls with the definition of what a Muslim is. To define that, there is only one authority: Muhammad's Quran, which may be a record of his own quotations only, nevertheless is understood as the word of God himself and thus is not available to human interpretation or changing - for it is the word of God, you see. The bible is not seen that way, only minor parts of it, for example the ten commandements. Would you say the ten commandements, as given by God himself, are open for correction, interpretation, changings according to mortal man's liking? Sometimes take them this way, sometimes the other way? Probably not. They, like the quran, need to be taken literally, for both claim to be the word, will and intention of God. And taking the Quran literally, there cannot be a Muslim identity that is at the same time "us" (in a western, non-Islamic national and cultural understanding), and "Muslim". That is why good ol' Lawrence failed: he did not get that for the Arab tribes he tried to unify the Western idea of "nation" and "national identity" did not play an important role. "Not West, not East - Islamic we want to be!" was one of the paroles of the Mujaheddin during the war against the Soviets. "Borders and nations mean nothing, there is only the Ummah, and what is outside of it and is ruked to become part of the Ummah a bit later", I once heared a Turkish cleric saying. Dar-al-harb and dar-al-Islam is the important difference that Islam lives by: the house of Islam versus the house of war (=non-Islam). Peace is acchieved by overthrowing the house of war, lasting peaceful coexistence is impossible, cease-firings are ordered to be as short as possible only, for pragmatical reasons. Variations of "Islam first, nationality second" is what you hear in all countries that are muslim, or hold larger Muslim communities.

You want to much Neal, and you are too well-meaning: perfect harmony and respect and reasonable understanding, without hurting anyone. But you will never reach that. You call for the impossible. That what you adress - does not answer your wishes on equal terms, but on selfish terms only.



b.) Not alienating those Muslims you talk of maybe is only possible at the price of not confronting Muslims, no matter there "orientation", at all. And that is too costly a price. It includes not to ask critical questions of those the West wrongly perceive as extremists (they are closer to the Quran than almost all "liberal", "moderate" Muslims), and so what you effectively do is supporting that queer attempt of the West that has brought us to wehre we are: not to confront islam and not to force muslims to finally face the many inner contradictions of their faith. that way, they see that they must not ask themselves at all, and must not chnage at all, because of the Neals in this world who do not confront them in the name of not alienating the friendly muslims there are.

What do you think is the reason why Muslim integrartion in Europe has failed so drastically? In germany, the interior ministry has launched a series of so-called "integration summits" with muslim organizations. They have sent only radical speakers, in your understanding of "radical", while the silent group of moderates, as you would call them, did not seriously care for being represented there. And now, short before the second meeting at the round table, Germany has gotten a new integration law, that makes it obligatory that newcomers need to learn at least a minimum of 200-300 (!!!) german words. that is so minimal that it even does not make too much sense. Reaction: Muslim organizations call "Racism", "Islamophobia!", complain about lacking respect for Turkish culture in special, and Muslim culture in general, say that it cannot be expected that Muslim immigrants in Germany are expected to become able to communicate in even most rudimental german, and call Germany one of the worst offenders of human rights on the planet. The interior minister is so sick and tired that he said in public "Es reicht!", and from the circle of close advisors around him and other governmental officials it was heared that behind the curtain of the public stage they were "sick and tired" (Schnauze voll haben) of the endless Islamic and Turkish tirades and demands. The Islam groups threaten to boycott the meeting, until Germany takes back that law. the parliament, in their eyes, has no rights, it seems. So much for their integration willingness. It is only the latest example of a long and apparently neverending series of endless confrontations and demands that we must change according to Islamic rules, and Turkish demands. And you are wondering why more and more people become so bitterly opposing towards Islam in the West...?

Neal, you are not logical in your intentions. You too much avoid clear decision, and where needed: conflict, that may be because maybe you have a wrong or not complete understanding of Islam. Do not compare it to anything you know from western history and culture. This mental attitude Islam is teaching is more alien than you imagine. It simply does not compare to what we have in the west. That's why your criterions and categories do not match. And that'S why your intention with this thread is unrealistic, and that is the reason why I recommended you to exclude political and religous debates all together in he GT forum. You simply hope for more goodness than can come from this.

I really would recommend you close this thread and ban religious and political debates all together. then you have a peaceful forum, and when no lies or distortions abiout Islam are getting told by some, then others will not see any need to object to that and correct that and must not feel challenged to do so. What you try to get now is - nicetalking it only. And that is short of censorship.

[robbo180265]

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w181/robbo180265/1183365366500.jpg

[Tchocky]

Skybird, is this the "Islam != Every Muslim" thing again?

What's wrong with making people feel welcome on the forums? If I was Muslim I think I'd be getting annoyed at you, for refusing to show civility to me because of the actions of others.

(I'm honestly trying to see this another way, but it's hard.
Neal - please show a little civility and respect
Skybird - Lawrence of Arabia!

Yeah, exaggeration and misrepresentation are all mine. But don't you see the mountain you're making this into?)

What happens in German integration is not relevant to what happens on General Topics. It doesn't give anyone here the right to denigrate others on the basis of what others who happen to share a religious label do.

You want to much Neal, and you are too well-meaning: perfect harmony and respect and reasonable understanding, without hurting anyone. But you will never reach that. You call for the impossible. That what you adress - does not answer your wishes on equal terms, but on selfish terms only. Can't we
try to have respect and understanding on the forums? Is that too liberal or well-intentioned? Too much like appeasement?
Yeah, the next sticky will be Tak's "Peace In Our Time".

This isn't about religion, it's about SUBSIM forums.

[Hitman]

Well here goes my only two cents on this topic:

Cent #1: I came long ago to Subsim.com because it was a place about naval simulations. I loved it instantly and I still love it today as that. I got involved in discussions about religions and politics in this GT forum sometimes, and I do not regret it. Yet my number of posts in the naval forums clearly outnumber by a huge amount that of posts in this GT forum.

Cent #2: There are lately some people here who seem to have forgotten that Subsim.com is a naval sims website. And who are residing in this GT forum PERMANENTLY without any other apparent interest in the other subsim forums and/or naval/flight/tank sims except pushing their polytichal/religious/whatever agenda here. IMHO that is a bad misunderstading of what this community is all about, and leads only to a degradation of it.

I would like to invite those people (They know who they are, no need to call out names) to make a serious reconsideration of what they are doing here, and extract conclusions. I'm not implying I want to see anyone leave subsim.com, but certainly I would like to encourage them to go back as main activity to what brought them here at first: Naval sims.

[Jimbuna]

Well here goes my only two cents on this topic:

Cent #1: I came long ago to Subsim.com because it was a place about naval simulations. I loved it instantly and I still love it today as that. I got involved in discussions about religions and politics in this GT forum sometimes, and I do not regret it. Yet my number of posts in the naval forums clearly outnumber by a huge amount that of posts in this GT forum.

Cent #2: There are lately some people here who seem to have forgotten that Subsim.com is a naval sims website. And who are residing in this GT forum PERMANENTLY without any other apparent interest in the other subsim forums and/or naval/flight/tank sims except pushing their polytichal/religious/whatever agenda here. IMHO that is a bad misunderstading of what this community is all about, and leads only to a degradation of it.

I would like to invite those people (They know who they are, no need to call out names) to make a serious reconsideration of what they are doing here, and extract conclusions. I'm not implying I want to see anyone leave subsim.com, but certainly I would like to encourage them to go back as main activity to what brought them here at first: Naval sims.

>Loud Applause< :sunny: :up:

[XabbaRus]

I think it is time this thread was locked. It was mainly just for Neal to tell people to calm it but once again it has turned into the Skybird and friends anti-muslim posting thread.

Neal lock it up please.

[Takeda Shingen]

I'm taking Xabba's advice one step further and locking this thread myself. Neal can come by and give the final word as he wishes, but further discussion from the general membership on this topic is redundant, to say the least.