Historical Question U-869?

[Mowinz]

Hi folks!

I read this book a few years ago and never seen the television documentary but am still curious about this boat. My first question for you naval historians is why? Why would a U-boat venture so close to enemy territory in early 1945? They had to know the war was basically over and coming to an end soon? No? Were they on a suicide mission or did they just want to surrender?

We know this boat was sunk off of New Jersey.

From PBS...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostsub/tour.html#

From the U.S Coast Guard...

http://www.uscg.mil/history/WEBCUTTERS/U869_Crow_Koiner.html

From what I read so far, the Kriegsmarine thought this boat was lost thousands of miles away. By Feb.1945, everyone in the German Military had to know they were losing fast. This mission makes no sense to me whatsoever!

A few months later, U-858 was the first submarine to surrender to the United States Navy after the cessation of hostilities with Germany in May of 1945. And the surrender took place about forty miles off the coast of Cape May, New Jersey.

U-858 had been out on patrol for six weeks and had torpedoed 16 Allied
ships when her commander, Kapitanleutenant (that's equal to a Lieutenant Commander) Thilo Bode received word from his wireless operator that Germany had capitulated and all naval vessels were ordered to stand down and surrender as soon as possible. Kapitan Bode immediately signaled his intention to turn over his vessel to American forces, and on Tuesday, May 15, 1945 he rendezvoused with a task-group from the US Atlantic Fleet, just east of Cape May.

Naturally, newsmen and photographers were on hand to document the historic moment. They reported that the crew of U-858 seemed quite young (the average age for U-boat crewmen was 20 years of age). They said the men looked unkempt and a bit ragged, but six weeks of traveling in what has been described as a sewer pipe with valves (German subs of that era had no showers or laundry facilities) could make any group of men less than fresh.

The reporters at the transfer of command noted that the 27-year-old Bavarian Kapitan Bode was tall, smooth-shaven, and pasty-faced, with a keen wit about him. When journalists asked the German skipper for his reaction to the surrender orders, he shrugged his shoulders and said, "We expected it. What was the use of going on? We hadn't seen any ships to attack." Kapitan Bode added, "Give me my submarine, my crew and I'd like to help fight the Japs with the US Navy."

http://www.capemay.com/capemayarchives/germansub.html

Seriously about U-869...suicide mission or surrender? I believe it was indeed completely suicide for a U-Boat to get so close to U.S shores in 1945 when they didn't have to. So I think they had to be surrendering and instead got some heat. Of course I could be all wrong...yeah...it's a mystery and I'm clueless and no one REALLY knows. What do you guys think?

Cheers

[CapZap1970]

A secret agreement was made between Doenitz and the americans, for 2 german submarines to sail to United States with very important people and some very sensitive infomation on board. This was done so the important documents would not be captured by Russia. The thing is that in their journey, the subs were atteacked on several occasions despite the agreement, and of course, in order to preserve their lives and the lives of those important prson aboard, they had to torpedo some military ships. Those details are ignored by most people, but yes, t the end both subs finally surrendered and their precious cargo delivered. ;)
Of course, for propaganda purposes, it was said that the subs were "captured" and the germans sunk those american military on their trip`as they were trying to escape to Buenos Aires (Argentina) when the war was about to finish. Nothing was mentioned ever about the agreement until a couple of years ago, when some secret documents were desclassified by the US government. :know:
CapZap

[Mechman]

If that story is indeed true, the u-869 wasnt one of the subs, as it was sunk.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

U-869 was discovered by a civilian wreck diver. (Bill Nagle)

Several years later it was positively identified by civilian divers John Chatterton and Richi Kohler after many dives and three fatalities.

Based on the nature of the damage to the sub, a circle runner impacted the base of its conning tower causing a catastrophic failure of the pressure hull.

Believe me gents, there is no conspiracy theory that can be attached to this boat. It was simply out of communication with BdU. All Enigma communications between U-869 and BdU were intercepted. Later comparison showed that U-869 made attempts to respond to BdU but failed.

BdU believed it sunk off Gibralter though U-869 had carried on with its primary mission to patrol the waters off the coastal regions of New York.

Read "Shadow Divers."

U-869 has been a personal interest of mine for several years... and is in part one of the stories that launched my obsession with U-boats.

[Mowinz]

I was hoping you would chime in Kpt. Lehmann. Many thanks for the GWX add-on! Regarding the U-869...

I wouldn't say there is any kind of conspiracy theory at all. However, having done very little research it seems some things just don't add up for this U-boat.

From the Coast Guard link:

http://www.uscg.mil/history/WEBCUTTERS/U869_Crow_Koiner.html

The crew of the German submarine U-869 sailed two months earlier with a different reality. They felt they were condemned men. This was their first patrol and there was no optimism that they would return to the quay greeted as heroes with marching bands and pretty girls admiring the victory pennants hanging from the conning tower. The U-Boats had abandoned their warm, lively French bases and their new bleak Norwegian bases were in a shambles and constantly under attack. Victories were rare and celebratory pennants rarer. They had departed Kristanstand, Norway on December 8, 1944 for a point in the ocean several hundred miles south of Iceland, from there they would be directed via encoded radio message for a patrol destination. On December 29, 1944 U-Boat command radioed the submarine to patrol an area off the New Jersey Coast. The order was in turn rescinded when the U-869 radioed in her fuel supply. The young captain of the submarine, twenty eight year old Hellmut Neuerburg, had been extra cautious on his voyage to his detachment point. Neuerburg was on his first sub patrol ever and he no doubt was alarmed at the growing number of lost Commander’s portraits that were covering the walls of the officers’ clubs. Instead of taking his boat between Ireland and Iceland, Neuerburg had decided to travel the longer, but less patrolled route south of Greenland. This is what had diminished his fuel supply. U-Boat command rerouted him to the straights of Gibraltar were he would have more time to operate on patrol. They expected him to arrive on February 1, 1945.

If the young Captain was so cautious? Why was he so close to the US? The war was ending and they had to know it was going to be over soon. Considering its final location, there's no indication to me whatsoever that any degree of caution was actually taken.

How about the fuel supply? Considering the longer route U-869 took...could this boat have made it back to an axis port or supply destination? I don't think so...

Still, things don't quite add up.

Cheers :up:

[Heffalump]

Shadow Divers is a good book but I don't think U869 was destroyed by a circle runner -- mostly for the two distinct impact points, as outlined in the Coast Guard article.

[barracuda]

A secret agreement was made between Doenitz and the americans, for 2 german submarines to sail to United States with very important people and some very sensitive infomation on board. This was done so the important documents would not be captured by Russia. The thing is that in their journey, the subs were atteacked on several occasions despite the agreement, and of course, in order to preserve their lives and the lives of those important prson aboard, they had to torpedo some military ships. Those details are ignored by most people, but yes, t the end both subs finally surrendered and their precious cargo delivered. ;)
Of course, for propaganda purposes, it was said that the subs were "captured" and the germans sunk those american military on their trip`as they were trying to escape to Buenos Aires (Argentina) when the war was about to finish. Nothing was mentioned ever about the agreement until a couple of years ago, when some secret documents were desclassified by the US government. :know:
CapZap


I have never heard such history. If it´s true it´s amazing. Where can I read about that?

[CapZap1970]

A secret agreement was made between Doenitz and the americans, for 2 german submarines to sail to United States with very important people and some very sensitive infomation on board. This was done so the important documents would not be captured by Russia. The thing is that in their journey, the subs were atteacked on several occasions despite the agreement, and of course, in order to preserve their lives and the lives of those important prson aboard, they had to torpedo some military ships. Those details are ignored by most people, but yes, t the end both subs finally surrendered and their precious cargo delivered. ;)
Of course, for propaganda purposes, it was said that the subs were "captured" and the germans sunk those american military on their trip`as they were trying to escape to Buenos Aires (Argentina) when the war was about to finish. Nothing was mentioned ever about the agreement until a couple of years ago, when some secret documents were desclassified by the US government. :know:
CapZap


I have never heard such history. If it´s true it´s amazing. Where can I read about that?
Let me get all the info together... I have a book about it, plus some other articles... I will give you the links when I am done... Oh, by the way, certainly it's not the case of the U-869, but it happened. It's far from being a conspiracy case, but some details about it are very interesting. ;)
CapZap

[Mechman]

At least it's not as far fetched as the whole Nazi-american treaty u-cruiser thing.

[GoldenRivet]

I read shadow divers ages ago... great book.

IIRC the boat was headed for one patrol area and re-routed to another, but never received the message to do so.

her fate is currently credited to these two boats - and rightly so i believe

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/history/WEBCUTTERS/U869_Crow_Koiner.html

Im quite sure that these U-boat sailors were being depth charged for quite some time after they had already been killed as the two boats continued their depth charge runs with great aggression.

what an increadibly helpless feeling it would have been to be sitting on the bottom with those loud pings blasting away at you. The report claims that with the depth setting of the depth charges one or more of the charges would have likely exploded within one or two feet of the hull! Though it is highly unlikely that you would survive that sort of blast - on the off chance that you did survive you would see the boat fill with water almost entirely within a few seconds. even if you could swim to the surface the depth charges continued to be dropped for quite a while after the boat was probably already destroyed.

Its just shameful that the war was so close to being over. The bravey of these U-boat sailors facing their odds by this point in the war cannot be overstated - im surprised that more U-boats didnt beach themselves on american shores by early 1945 just to surrender to the locals. Surely these sailors knew they were fighting a war that - at this point - could not be won... but they faced their duty anyway.

what more can you ask of your men?