Pickett's Charge today

[nikimcbee]

American history could have changed today. One of America's key crossroads in history. Today was the third day of the Battle of Gettysburg.

(my favorite part)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-DoYsM2Chxo

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YHSixnUqxCM

(high water mark)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oW3DfXrn8Yc

(park today)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hPfTUcUBL60

[dean_acheson]

the day was going so well, until this came up. ;)

Faulkner used to say that it was possible for every southern boy to go back in their minds to a time when the flags were unfurled, but the charge hadn't started yet.... maybe that is why it took so long to implement the 14th amendment... :-?

[The Avon Lady]

So much in so relatively few words:

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation,
conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation, so conceived and so
dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to
dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that
nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate—we can not consecrate—we can not hallow—this ground.
The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power
to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never
forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work
which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to
the great task remaining before us — that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that
cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion — that we here highly resolve that these
dead shall not have died in vain — that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom — and
that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

Wow.

[Heibges]

the day was going so well, until this came up. ;)

Faulkner used to say that it was possible for every southern boy to go back in their minds to a time when the flags were unfurled, but the charge hadn't started yet.... maybe that is why it took so long to implement the 14th amendment... :-?

That sounds like the drunken antebellum version of "all real Americans love the sting of battle".:D

But serioulsly, going to the Gettysburg battlefield is a very sobering experience. Folks always says the WWI was the first modern war, but in many respects I think that honor goes to the American Civil War. If you look at the old pictures of the Southern cites ruined by the Union, you won't see pictures of cities like that until WWII.

It's very strange going to the South as a Yankee, but you can understand why so many folks are P.O.'d and you hear that "The South will Rise Again."

[Iceman]

A deep man believes in miracles, waits for them, believes in magic, believes that the orator will decompose his adversary; believes that the evil eye can wither, that the heart’s blessing can heal; that love can exalt talent; can overcome all odds.

Ralph Waldo Emerson - The Conduct of Life {Beauty}

[Lord_Kitchener]

Faulkner used to say that it was possible for every southern boy to go back in their minds to a time when the flags were unfurled, but the charge hadn't started yet........Yep, every real southerner wishes we had clobbered them that day! Guilty as charged..lol. However we all know slavery was wrong and a huge mistake...still...

[waste gate]

52,000 Americans lost their lives between July 1 and July 3 1863. That isn't a typo, 52,000!

What would this country be like if they had given up the fight on July 4?
As hard as it is, and I have no allusions, sometimes you have to fight.

Edit
The Battle of Chickamauga may have been worse, September 19-20, 1863 (two days), 34,624.

[NEON DEON]

In 1860, the population of the US was about 30 million.

623,000 Americans died in the Civil War from 1861 to 1865.

In 1940, the population of the US was about 130 million.

407,000 Americans died in WW II from 1941 to 1945.

All us wars combined excluding the Civil War: 645,000 vs. The Civil War 623,000.

The Civil War was the worst war in American history.

[U-533]

If this 'War Criminal' ( http://www.publiusrendezvous.com/sherman.gif ) had not made his so called ride through the south I think things would have been allot different.

We still would have fought the war...
The North would have given up...
The south would have left the North alone...
The states would come back together...
Slavery ( in the USA )would have been shown in it's true light...
We as a nation would not have the racial problems we have today...
We as a nation would not be paying the taxes we pay today...

These are just a few highlights that may have happened if the 'War Criminal' pictured above did not make his ride.

Kinda makes me think of the saying

"If wishes where horses ,beggers would ride"

Edited

I have to hand it to him... his tactics have proven to be extremly effective.

[Takeda Shingen]

Interesting. I agree with one, not the rest.

We still would have fought the war...
Obviously. Sherman did not cause the Civil War. He was, in fact, a junior commander at its onset.

The North would have given up...
Probably not. Once Vicksburg was taken and the Mississippi was in Union hands, the war was effectively lost for the Confederacy. Yes, it may have stretched out the war for an extra year or so, but the South was running out of men and materiel.

The south would have left the North alone...
The Attack on Fort Sumter: 1861
The March to the Sea: 1864


The states would come back together...
Slavery was more than a 'moral' or political system; it was an economic reality. Cotton was the South's livelyhood, and slaves were needed to farm. Accordingly, with the onset of Emancipation (1863), the financial needs of the South's agricultural economy would have made any reconciliation impossible.

Slavery ( in the USA )would have been shown in it's true light...
It was already well-established that slaves were treated harshly. After all, they were slaves.

We as a nation would not have the racial problems we have today...
You're right: We would have completely different ones.

We as a nation would not be paying the taxes we pay today...
You're also right: We would have totally new taxes to pay.

On topic: I love Gettysburg, and have visited it numerous times. If possible, get yourself a car guide. The guide will drive your car and take you to the site of each event in chronological order. You'll get out of the car, walk along and hear the stories, then move on to the next site. Very informal and very fascinating.

[Heibges]

In 1860, the population of the US was about 30 million.

623,000 Americans died in the Civil War from 1861 to 1865.

In 1940, the population of the US was about 130 million.

407,000 Americans died in WW II from 1941 to 1945.

All us wars combined excluding the Civil War: 645,000 vs. The Civil War 623,000.

The Civil War was the worst war in American history.

OMG, we lost nearly 2.5% of our population in the Civil War.:oops:

[Sailor Steve]

52,000 Americans lost their lives between July 1 and July 3 1863. That isn't a typo, 52,000!
No, it isn't a typo. It also isn't correct.

There were 52,000 casualties, including dead, wounded and missing. The total count of lost lives was around 6,000. Still terrible, but nowhere near the number you cite.
http://gburginfo.brinkster.net/Casualties.htm

[waste gate]

52,000 Americans lost their lives between July 1 and July 3 1863. That isn't a typo, 52,000!
No, it isn't a typo. It also isn't correct.

There were 52,000 casualties, including dead, wounded and missing. The total count of lost lives was around 6,000. Still terrible, but nowhere near the number you cite.
http://gburginfo.brinkster.net/Casualties.htm

You have to love revisionist history.

[Sailor Steve]

:rotfl:

If you want to dismiss the people who have spent that kind of time doing that kind of research as "revisionist", then I guess you must know something the rest of us don't.

Please, by all means, show me the real numbers, sources, references and proof.

[waste gate]

:rotfl:

If you want to dismiss the people who have spent that kind of time doing that kind of research as "revisionist", then I guess you must know something the rest of us don't.

Please, by all means, show me the real numbers, sources, references and proof.

Perhaps it takes more research on my behalf. I'll look into it. Including James McPherson's work.

[August]

:rotfl:

If you want to dismiss the people who have spent that kind of time doing that kind of research as "revisionist", then I guess you must know something the rest of us don't.

Please, by all means, show me the real numbers, sources, references and proof.
Perhaps it takes more research on my behalf. I'll look into it. Including James McPherson's work.

FWIW it's a fairly common mistake to confuse overall casualty rates with those KIA.

I'd even go so far to say that given the rudimentary medical facilities of the period as well as the high mortality rate amongst POWs in that war there's a lot of wounded and missing that could be added to the overall death toll.

[Tchocky]

Civil wars are always vicious, often more so then international conflicts.
I really must read up on the US Civil War, it's a chunk of history that I'm not so sharp on.

[Heibges]

52,000 Americans lost their lives between July 1 and July 3 1863. That isn't a typo, 52,000!

What would this country be like if they had given up the fight on July 4?
As hard as it is, and I have no allusions, sometimes you have to fight.

Edit
The Battle of Chickamauga may have been worse, September 19-20, 1863 (two days), 34,624.

If I remember, from having to read that horrible book "Killer Angels" in the Army, that Antietam is "the bloodiest day in American History".

[Heibges]

Civil wars are always vicious, often more so then international conflicts.
I really must read up on the US Civil War, it's a chunk of history that I'm not so sharp on.

I took a seminar in college on the Russian Civil War, and those were some really bad times. No one really has a good tally on how many were killed during those years.

Sometimes I think I know much more about Russian history than I do the history of my own country.

[Heibges]

:rotfl:

If you want to dismiss the people who have spent that kind of time doing that kind of research as "revisionist", then I guess you must know something the rest of us don't.

Please, by all means, show me the real numbers, sources, references and proof.
Perhaps it takes more research on my behalf. I'll look into it. Including James McPherson's work.

FWIW it's a fairly common mistake to confuse overall casualty rates with those KIA.

I'd even go so far to say that given the rudimentary medical facilities of the period as well as the high mortality rate amongst POWs in that war there's a lot of wounded and missing that could be added to the overall death toll.

But I also think many of the wounded in those days ended up dying after the battle from complications.

[PeriscopeDepth]

FYI, IIRC WWI was the first war where more soldiers died of enemy fire than disease.

PD

[Heibges]

FYI, IIRC WWI was the first war where more soldiers died of enemy fire than disease.

PD

And I believe 90% of the KIA's were from Large Caliber Artillery. This really shocked me as it put the effectiveness of the machinegun into perspective.

[nikimcbee]

If this 'War Criminal' ( http://www.publiusrendezvous.com/sherman.gif ) had not made his so called ride through the south I think things would have been allot different.

We still would have fought the war...
The North would have given up...
The south would have left the North alone...
The states would come back together...
Slavery ( in the USA )would have been shown in it's true light...
We as a nation would not have the racial problems we have today...
We as a nation would not be paying the taxes we pay today...

These are just a few highlights that may have happened if the 'War Criminal' pictured above did not make his ride.

Kinda makes me think of the saying

"If wishes where horses ,beggers would ride"

Edited

I have to hand it to him... his tactics have proven to be extremly effective.


okay, now the question is, Do you know "Marching Through Georgia"? and will you sing it for us?:roll:
J/k, shameless troll question.:cool:

[nikimcbee]

52,000 Americans lost their lives between July 1 and July 3 1863. That isn't a typo, 52,000!
No, it isn't a typo. It also isn't correct.

There were 52,000 casualties, including dead, wounded and missing. The total count of lost lives was around 6,000. Still terrible, but nowhere near the number you cite.
http://gburginfo.brinkster.net/Casualties.htm


So, there are more Sailor Steve posts, then there were people killed.:oops: Now that fact WILL make the next subsim book.:yep:

[August]

And I believe 90% of the KIA's were from Large Caliber Artillery. This really shocked me as it put the effectiveness of the machinegun into perspective.

Combined with improvements in battlefield medicine of course.

[nikimcbee]

And I believe 90% of the KIA's were from Large Caliber Artillery. This really shocked me as it put the effectiveness of the machinegun into perspective.

Combined with improvements in battlefield medicine of course.

The Civil War doctors/ hospitals were never in any position to handle the amount of wounded the battles were generating. But, I doubt modern medicine could deal with thousands of casualties at once.

[August]

And I believe 90% of the KIA's were from Large Caliber Artillery. This really shocked me as it put the effectiveness of the machinegun into perspective.
Combined with improvements in battlefield medicine of course.
The Civil War doctors/ hospitals were never in any position to handle the amount of wounded the battles were generating. But, I doubt modern medicine could deal with thousands of casualties at once.

Heibges was talking about WW1 but I'd say that modern medicine could do a better job with any given amount of casualties than 19th century medicine could. Understanding of the importance of keeping wounds clean alone made a huge difference in the mortality rate.