K-19: The Widowmaker

[Puster Bill]

OK, am I the only one who thinks it is a bad idea to do an emergency surface at 20 knots through the ice?

They didn't even rig in the fore diveplanes. That sounds like a good way to get them wiped off the hull in a hurry to me.

Not to mention the damage you would do to the sail.

[GakunGak]

Even it is less than 1m of ice, It may be a work of fiction, but who knows....
For me, personally, The red october that evades a torp from the aircraft and it slams into the rocks... A lot of fiction in movies...
BOT: I agree 100% with that you said.... There should be at least sail damage, maybe that's the reason why their radio antenna failed, or maybe it was an act of sabotage and the intention was to blow the whole sub close to the US...:nope:
A litle conspiracy here...:lol:

[Puster Bill]

Yeah, well, the only conspiracy involved started in 1917...

As I recall, the Hotel class was basically a November boat with the missile compartment of a Golf class. They used to call the Novembers 'cancer wards'.

Don't get me started on the K-129, either. I read 'Red Star Rogue', and found a number of serious factual errors. What wasn't error was just "This is what could have happened".

[Heibges]

Yeah, well, the only conspiracy involved started in 1917...

As I recall, the Hotel class was basically a November boat with the missile compartment of a Golf class. They used to call the Novembers 'cancer wards'.

Don't get me started on the K-129, either. I read 'Red Star Rogue', and found a number of serious factual errors. What wasn't error was just "This is what could have happened".

LOL.:rotfl:

That Russian black sense of humor. It must have been a reference to the Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn novel "Cancer Ward".

[Kapitan]

Alot of russians including the surviving crew are out raged at the way the americans have portrayed them, the K-19 foundation has already sucsessfully sued the film makers as they believe the americans show them as "incompetant drunkerds" in reality no idiot would surface at 20 knots under ice it would have smashed the submarine to bloody bit.

I like the film in the fact its ok to watch but if you know the back ground and know people who know the survivors its alot diffrent.

Another thing is where the heck did that american destroyer come from? the K-19 was in an ice field for goodness sake not many ships only ice breakers go up to where K-19 was hence why there were no diesel submarines in the immediate area.

[Kapitan]

The hotel class were extended versions of earlier golf class with two nuclear reactors put inside thats the only real diffrence, the november design is way diffrent the only design to ever try and some what follow the tear drop hull was the later yankee and delta classes.

Even the typhoon is wedge shaped.

[Puster Bill]

The hotel class were extended versions of earlier golf class with two nuclear reactors put inside thats the only real diffrence, the november design is way diffrent the only design to ever try and some what follow the tear drop hull was the later yankee and delta classes.

Even the typhoon is wedge shaped.

Errmm, no. The Hotel class is a November with the missile section of a Golf inserted.

[Kapitan]

I can 100% assure you its not infact i can garentee you its not a november hull and yes ive been up close and personal to both in gremikha to find that out.

The november class has a tear drop hull like a sausage the hotel has a traditional boat hull.

This is the Golf class SSB conventional powerd ballistic missile submarine, this submarine is the stock gap between the older Zulu IV class and the back up to the newer hotel I class (incase anything went wrong).

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3497/k129yp5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


This is the real picture of the K3 Leninsky komsomol the first ever nuclear submarine aunched by the soviet union in 1958, this is the november class project 627 notice the distinct shape of the tear drop hull something the americans didnt come about with untill the 1960's its clearly a sausage shape.

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/686/november2ze1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

To prove even more of a point heres a rough diagramme of the novembers hull form taken from bellona, these bellona people are the people that help aid the decomissioning of russian submarines.

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/277/november1nt4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Now this is the real K-19 before her scrapping notice she was modified to Hotel II standards (which does not affect her hull form at the front, and as you can clearly see the bow is completely blunt and typical boat shaped.

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/4725/scrappingk19jm0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

now how you can say that the hotels are november hulls with plugs inserted i will never know for a start the hotels have a shorter beam than the novembers and the hotels are longer and heavyier, plus whats inside is totaly diffrent the november has 2 floors where the hotels only have a single floor.

If you would like to know more i could put you in touch with a few now retired russian captains and a rear admiral and also other serving seamen and officers in the russian navy, my stepfather whom is one would happily explain the diffrencies between the two classes as he was around at the time of thier building.

[pythos]

So they actually scrapped the K-19. I thought I heard some rich muckety muck purchased the hull, for the purpose of making a museum dedicated to the crews of early Russian nuclear subs.

It is my understanding the Novemember class was orginally concieved to have only one torpedo tube, which was to launch the HUGE T-17 nuclear tipped torpedo. The drawings I have seen of the boat depicted a tube half the length of the boat itself.

The idea was to destroy enemy harbors with this thing. Thank fully it was never made and the Novemember as we know it was instead made.

The Hotel looks like the aft section of a Novemember, with the mid section and bow of a golf. It was a stop gap method of creating a balistic missle launching submarine, using features of existing designs.

The Echo class was also of the Novemember lineage to my knowledge.

All three were concidered more hazardous to their crews, than to their enemy.

[Prof]

Another thing is where the heck did that american destroyer come from? the K-19 was in an ice field for goodness sake not many ships only ice breakers go up to where K-19 was hence why there were no diesel submarines in the immediate area.It's been a while since I read Huchthausen's book, but didn't K-19 eventually make contact with a nearby Soviet Diesel boat on the short-range radio?

[Kapitan]

Yes she did S270 a foxtrot class two of them were sent to help they took the crew off before a salvage vessel towed K19 home.

The other submarine S159 stood gaurd with orders to sink K19 should any NATO vessel come and try and board her.

[Lafferty]

well at least they did not try to interfere or there sure would have been a War.

[Kapitan]

Not really at the time of the incident the soviet union was not prepared for war, give it another 8 years then we would have had problems with the yankees coming down the slip way.

[TLAM Strike]

Not really at the time of the incident the soviet union was not prepared for war, give it another 8 years then we would have had problems with the yankees coming down the slip way. As I recall the US F*ed with the K-219 (that Yankee that suffed a missile explosion off Berumuda), cutting the towing line and maybe even taking some warheads after she sank and there wasn't a war. There have been many incadents durring that cold war like that (The Pueblo, U-2, K-129 etc) and none resulted in open war.

[Kapitan]

Can you prove the americans acctually cut the K219 tow lines?

Whats more the vessel towing K219 was a frieghter she wasnt built for ocean towing nor were the lines she was using, they were for docking the ship.

The reason the K129 was hushed up was because the soviets denyed the existance of the submarine and just sent letters to the familys saying "your son / father / brother has dissapeard without a trace"

The russians acctually said to the americans if you would drop the K129 story so would we.

K129 was an ederly golf class submarine it ment nothing to the russians bear in mind they already had hotels and were very rapidly progressing on the yankees, they wouldnt have cared the tech sitting in that dinosaur well wasnt worth the metal it was made from.

Whats more alot of people get confused about the K219, a US Submarine collided with a Delta I a day before K219 got into trouble thats where the confusion lies alot of people say a american sub collided with 219, but there was no evedence of a colision can you see any marks on the hull from any picture?

The silos of yankees and deltas are notourius for letting water in mix it with the liquid fuel you get a big bang this is what happend to K219.

How she sank no one knows its something Captain Igor Britanov will take to his grave. maybe she was scuttled or maybe she sank f her own occord.

[TLAM Strike]

Can you prove the americans acctually cut the K219 tow lines? Me no, the guys in the whale boat that almost got run over (err under?) by the US SSN could. Maybe the crew on both ships is lying when they said they saw the scope from a sub going twoards the tow line but if I had such a valuable source of intel sitting a few hundred miles off my shore I woundn't just let it slip away, not if I have a deniable way of keeping her stuck there.

K129 was an ederly golf class submarine it ment nothing to the russians bear in mind they already had hotels and were very rapidly progressing on the yankees, they wouldnt have cared the tech sitting in that dinosaur well wasnt worth the metal it was made from. Golf II Kap, she was old but fully updated with new tech and quite relyable compared to the Hotels. Don't forget the Cypher system aboard the K129 was top of the line. Plus any intel on the Soviet navy was valuable since the USSR was a closed socitiy.

Whats more alot of people get confused about the K219, a US Submarine collided with a Delta I a day before K219 got into trouble thats where the confusion lies alot of people say a american sub collided with 219, but there was no evedence of a colision can you see any marks on the hull from any picture? Well I'm not confused but for arguments sake if the rudder struck the missile deck it could have punctured the silo leaving only slight damage that vanished when the silo exploded but I find that very unlikely.

[Kapitan]

Points taken into condsideration there TLAM i can see where your coming from and yes i agree with some points bar the one about the periscope.

If the ship is towing the submarine that would make the line very taught and if the periscope was to try and slice through the rope it would be like a cheese wire going threw cheese so the periscope would be ripped off would that sound right?

I can understand that a rudder strike could damage the outer layer of the hull but i dont think it would be enough to create that much damage if it was the rudder that hit the yankee the rudder would be seriously damaged.

But i dont know i going to look into K219 a bit more i havnt really studied that submarine in detail greatly.

[Lafferty]

Can you prove the americans acctually cut the K219 tow lines?

Whats more the vessel towing K219 was a frieghter she wasnt built for ocean towing nor were the lines she was using, they were for docking the ship.

The reason the K129 was hushed up was because the soviets denyed the existance of the submarine and just sent letters to the familys saying "your son / father / brother has dissapeard without a trace"

The russians acctually said to the americans if you would drop the K129 story so would we.

K129 was an ederly golf class submarine it ment nothing to the russians bear in mind they already had hotels and were very rapidly progressing on the yankees, they wouldnt have cared the tech sitting in that dinosaur well wasnt worth the metal it was made from.

Whats more alot of people get confused about the K219, a US Submarine collided with a Delta I a day before K219 got into trouble thats where the confusion lies alot of people say a american sub collided with 219, but there was no evedence of a colision can you see any marks on the hull from any picture?

The silos of yankees and deltas are notourius for letting water in mix it with the liquid fuel you get a big bang this is what happend to K219.

How she sank no one knows its something Captain Igor Britanov will take to his grave. maybe she was scuttled or maybe she sank f her own occord.
Dang i guess they wanted to cut it short and sweet for the families

[TLAM Strike]

Points taken into condsideration there TLAM i can see where your coming from and yes i agree with some points bar the one about the periscope.

If the ship is towing the submarine that would make the line very taught and if the periscope was to try and slice through the rope it would be like a cheese wire going threw cheese so the periscope would be ripped off would that sound right?

I can understand that a rudder strike could damage the outer layer of the hull but i dont think it would be enough to create that much damage if it was the rudder that hit the yankee the rudder would be seriously damaged.

But i dont know i going to look into K219 a bit more i havnt really studied that submarine in detail greatly.

It claimed that it wasn't the scope but the knucle in the water when the US SSN sharply dived under the slack cable that cut it.

As for the rudder being seriously damaged who but the crew of the sub would know? its on below the waterline and thus unseen. :hmm:

[Lafferty]

thats really weird.