VIIB or VIIC

[MENTAT]

Why would anyone prefers VIIC over VIIB and throws tons of renowns and upgrades to trash?

VIIC has lower submerged range and speed!

[danurve]

The viiC was the workhorse, I am a viiB fan but plan to get a viiC/41 (playable) if a current carrer survives long enough to get one!

[CaptainNemo12]

Better upgrades in the long-run. Try fighting the same aircraft with the AA armament of a VIIb than a VIIc/41.

[Tom]

Why would anyone prefers VIIC over VIIB and throws tons of renowns and upgrades to trash?

The VIIC dives faster and has better upgrades available later in the war (more conning tower options, for example).

A 0.4 knot maximum speed difference underwater makes no big difference, especially considering you won't be using high speeds underwater very much. A 3 seconds faster dive time is a bigger advantage, imho.

[_Seth_]

Hi Tom, and welcome! I like the VIIC best, but the VIIB is a wonderful boat too, especially with the FLAK "island" behind the conning tower.. ;)

[IrischKapitan]

The VIIB is a far better boat in my opinion.
When its engine is fully upgraded it can manage 21kts on the surface.
I've timed the crash dive myself and at 21kts I can manage 25-27 seconds sepending on the weather
The extra knot underwater can make a huge difference espically when manouvering to attack a convoy
A soon as I come across an aircraft I crash dive. Fighting it out on the surface is just a waste of time, ammo and puts an unesasery risk on my mens lives.
The VIIB looks way cooler too with the flak ''island'' and the nifty wire cutter on the bow.
It can make an extra 10 miles underwater because the VIIC is heavier.All these advantages make the VIIB a far better game boat.

EDIT: Welcome to the Silent Service Tom !!

[spork542]

Both boat types are good, but VIIC has more upgrades once you get to 42-43 onwards. It's all a matter of preference I suppose, but few VIIBs were still in combat service in 43-45, and all that were had been lost. So I just stick with VIIC in all cases during 43-45 because of this fact. I also find the 3 seconds really makes a difference. Sometimes the 27 seconds even is not enough to avoid damage from aircraft. At one point in a VIIC in 44, my boat was bombed, and I took heavy damage despite the crash dive. 3 seconds more on the surface would have resulted in certain death.

Edit: Welcome to the site, Tom!

[Tom]

When its engine is fully upgraded it can manage 21kts on the surface.
I've timed the crash dive myself and at 21kts I can manage 25-27 seconds sepending on the weather
The extra knot underwater can make a huge difference espically when manouvering to attack a convoy
A soon as I come across an aircraft I crash dive. Fighting it out on the surface is just a waste of time, ammo and puts an unesasery risk on my mens lives.
The VIIB looks way cooler too with the flak ''island'' and the nifty wire cutter on the bow.
It can make an extra 10 miles underwater because the VIIC is heavier.


Good points. I'm not saying the VIIB is a bad boat at all. Actually that's what I'm using right now (3rd patrol, January 1940). I guess that the way I play the game, I don't get to appreciate the advantages you listed:

- I never upgrade my engines, because, if I've understood correctly, this wasn't historically acurate.
- When attacking convoys I seldom move at higher than 2-4 knots underwater. I manuever to a favorable attack position on the surface before diving. The only time I use flank speed underwater is to dive quickly when I'm detected, or for short bursts when depthcharged.
- I also dive as soon as I see an aircraft (I'm playing GWX 1.03, 100% realism), unless I'm surprised when loading external torpedoes. In those cases I usually die. Well, last time I got off with one crew member dead and repairable damage, but that was in October 1939 and against a single plane. I think that's the only plane I've ever managed to shoot down in GWX.
- Personally I don't like how the VIIB extra 'flak island' looks. Maybe that's just me. The wire cutter is cool though. :)
- Yes, better underwater range is a definite advantage. But my experience is that I tend to run out of oxygen before battery power, if I can't shake whatever is hunting me.

Thus, I still argue that the faster dive time is an advantage I appreciate more than better underwater speed and range.

Oh, and thanks _Seth_ and IrischKapitan for your welcomes. :) I've been around for some time, but only reading the forums, never actually contributing in any way. Perhaps now, that I got over the first post (the first one is always the worst one, right?), you'll see me around. :)

[IrischKapitan]

- When attacking convoys I seldom move at higher than 2-4 knots underwater. I manuever to a favorable attack position on the surface before diving. The only time I use flank speed underwater is to dive quickly when I'm detected, or for short bursts when depthcharged.

Running Parrell to a convoy wont get you detected because the mechants messes with the DD hydraphones. I've only used flank speed at a convoy a couple of times (eg. if Im attacking during the day or I started at a bad position in the first place). But its nice to know you have the Extra knot if you need it. :yep::yep:

Edit: Cool Ive being promoted!!

[Penelope_Grey]

VIIC offers far more by way of technological advantages. All the best gear.

[IrischKapitan]

VIIC offers far more by way of technological advantages. All the best gear.

Yes good point.... My tip is stay with the VIIB until the end of 41, then upgrade to the VIIC and get all the fancy gizmos

[Schöneboom]

It seems to be a recurrent theme with technology that an upgrade doesn't always feel like an upgrade at first -- mensch, just look at the history of Windows! :lol:

This reminds me also of WWII aircraft; I often felt the same way about the Me109E vs. the later models -- the Jerries had a great design early on, but they had to keep improving it, thus introducing new advantages and disadvantages.

By 1942 I'd be more concerned with getting the latest radar detectors.

Mach's gut!

[GibsonSG]

I am driving a type VIIB at the moment (1940), out of Wilhelmshaven. I don't have enough reknown yet, but there is a type IX available...any thoughts on that one? I have never had one. Would I be better off saving up for a VIIC?

Welcome to the boards Tom. :)

[Schöneboom]

Oh, what fun you'd have in a Type IX, GibsonSG! Visit exotic, faraway places: the Caribbean, Africa, SE Asia! Stay at sea till your beard grows down to your waist!

The downside: You have to be even more careful with the IX, 'cause it doesn't dive as fast, it's a big target, and turns like a cow.

[Jimbuna]

Welcome aboard Kaleun Tom :arrgh!:

[ReallyDedPoet]

Welcome:up: Tom

When playing SH3, VIIC is my preference, they did not call them workhorses for nothing,
plus lots of upgrades :yep:

RDP

[Iron Budokan]

Cool upgrades, faster dive time, plus frauleins dig the VIIC. :yep:

[MENTAT]

I am driving a type VIIB at the moment (1940), out of Wilhelmshaven. I don't have enough reknown yet, but there is a type IX available...any thoughts on that one? I have never had one. Would I be better off saving up for a VIIC?

The worst part of IX models is they send you to the end of the world. Then you are bored to death en routé.

[Hadrys]

Welcome to subsim!

I love my VIIB, this is a great boat and great crew, newer took serious damage from depth charges, always brought us home safely and it's middle of 1941 now.

However I'm looking forward to upgrading to C in some time just to change it to C/41, also without a deckgun (maybe it will be gone from my B with the next patrol). I play as realistic as possible, sometimes I have no time to dive, just need to defend myself (like I don't dive or move, only calm sea during external reloads - so I barely do this). Also the historical fact of improvements and reliability in C model. Just this. In other case I would stick to my beloved VIIB!

PS Can't remember but when I was commanding a VIIC it was diving about 300m? My VIIB starts to bend at more than 250m so I would say it's her limit...

PS2 How about superchargers? Were they historically used? 21kt, wind in your hair, sweet!

[joegrundman]

If you start in 1940 from a french port, your default sub is a VIIB, rather than a VIIC. The reknown needed to pay for the arguable "upgrade" to VIIC is significant, compared to the more immediate concerns of getting batteries, engines and hydrophones upgrades.

Is this realistic? I mean, by late 1940, the VIIC was in full production and the VIIB was being phased out, no? Would new commanders have been given older uboats, or just put straight into the VIIC?

[TarJak]

Why choose? Just start a career with each type and then play the one you want whenever you want. I don;t think that there are really better or worse types just different types. Vive la difference!

[joegrundman]

Perhaps I'm missing something. When i start the campaign in 1940, although i can choose which sub i want, i am selected to have the VIIB already. If I want to start with the VIIC i have to pay the 7500 reknown, which is too much, given my starting reknown of 500

[CapZap1970]

Perhaps I'm missing something. When i start the campaign in 1940, although i can choose which sub i want, i am selected to have the VIIB already. If I want to start with the VIIC i have to pay the 7500 reknown, which is too much, given my starting reknown of 500
Just in case: Even if you are able to buy it or anything else, don't do it before you finish your first patrol... or else... :damn:
CapZap

[Tobus]

I like both boats, but think the differences between VIIb and VIIc are trivial. If you start your career with a II, go to a VIIc instead of a VIIb. If you start your career with a VIIb, try to survive until the VIIc/41 comes available. It's the same as a normal VIIc, but can safely dive to 300 meters (undamaged boat), a depth you'll need from the end of 1942.

[MENTAT]

Perhaps I'm missing something. When i start the campaign in 1940, although i can choose which sub i want, i am selected to have the VIIB already. If I want to start with the VIIC i have to pay the 7500 reknown, which is too much, given my starting reknown of 500

Plus the engine, battery, hytdrophone etc. upgrades, it skyrockets the renowns spent.

By the way, If you complete the academy, it give 1000 renown bonus =1500 renowns.

[MENTAT]

I like both boats, but think the differences between VIIb and VIIc are trivial. If you start your career with a II, go to a VIIc instead of a VIIb. ...

IIA is a junk. it has an extremely low range and torpedo load. and with that suplement, it will be pain i the ass to upgrade to a VIIC. No deck gun and with 5 torpedoes, i hardly manage to sink more than 1 ships. And if i am lucky, i will manage 2 ships. Usually, you are out of juice before you spend all your torpedoes so i often find myself returning to base with spare torpedoes.

[Penelope_Grey]

If I want to start with the VIIC i have to pay the 7500 reknown, which is too much, given my starting reknown of 500

The VIIC costs 3000 renown. I'm guessing that is a IXB you are pricing which do cost 7500 but the IX's get cheaper every year.

Also, if you want a higher starting renown, all you need to do is complete 2 or 3 exercises in Naval Academy with your profile and you will then start with 1500. I did Navigation, deck gunnery, and flak gunnery.

I like both boats, but think the differences between VIIb and VIIc are trivial. If you start your career with a II, go to a VIIc instead of a VIIb. If you start your career with a VIIb, try to survive until the VIIc/41 comes available. It's the same as a normal VIIc, but can safely dive to 300 meters (undamaged boat), a depth you'll need from the end of 1942.

You'll only get that diving depth if you use SH3 commander by the way. Because in game, the VIIC/41 is just a clone of the standard VIIC. Might I recommend Cobalts VIIC/41 player sub? :D

IIA is a junk. it has an extremely low range and torpedo load. and with that suplement, it will be pain i the ass to upgrade to a VIIC. No deck gun and with 5 torpedoes, i hardly manage to sink more than 1 ships. And if i am lucky, i will manage 2 ships. Usually, you are out of juice before you spend all your torpedoes so i often find myself returning to base with spare torpedoes.

I will not have people dissing the Type II's! LOL Oh, you forgot that its slow onthe surface without the engine enhancement.:rotfl:

My older brother started a career in a IIA when he got GWX, I thought he was nuts! Due to all the reasons you list there. However, GWX affords 3 reloads for the type II's:up:

What you do manage to sink in a Type II is just that, very very precious.

The IIA are not great at all, but lets take a look at the IID.

What advantages..
Fastest Crash Dive of all.
Has enough fuel to go from Kiel to the North Atlantic, and back.
Try pinging and depthcharging that!
Can harbour raid.
Dives pretty deep as well, can safely reach about 180m before you get probs.
Turns on a whim! Extremely agile surfaced and submerged.
Can be kitted with some essential gear to aid survival, like Radar detectors.

IMO the type II is seriously underestimated! The IIA is not great, far from it, but the IID deserves a bit of adulation.

[Canovaro]

VIIC offers far more by way of technological advantages. All the best gear.
Yes good point.... My tip is stay with the VIIB until the end of 41, then upgrade to the VIIC and get all the fancy gizmos

I agree

[Jimbuna]

The worst part of IX models is they send you to the end of the world. Then you are bored to death en routé.

Check your SH3 map and try travelling via the predicted convoy routes :arrgh!:

[danlisa]

I'll back Penny about the Type 2.:yep:

Having always used the Type 9's, I found myself using the IID (during testing) in the Black Sea. All I can say is that I was missing out.

It's a brillaint little boat, yes it has limited torpedos but it certainly makes up for it in evasiveness (:-? ). To date, I have run 3 patrols in the Black Sea and have returned home with no less than 18000 tonnes on each patrol. Each patrol was about 6-7 days long. Great theatre for a quick 'hit & run':arrgh!:

This is definatley an understated boat in SH3/GWX and it may keep my attention for awhile but it will be hard for me to move away from the long range patrols of the Type 9.

[IrischKapitan]

Ive had my VIIB since september '39 (March '41 and it fells like home) and it my favourite boat, Im keeping it until the VIIC\41 appears on the scene :yep::yep:

[IrischKapitan]

I'll back Penny about the Type 2.:yep:

Having always used the Type 9's, I found myself using the IID (during testing) in the Black Sea. All I can say is that I was missing out.

It's a brillaint little boat, yes it has limited torpedos but it certainly makes up for it in evasiveness (:-? ). To date, I have run 3 patrols in the Black Sea and have returned home with no less than 18000 tonnes on each patrol. Each patrol was about 6-7 days long. Great theatre for a quick 'hit & run':arrgh!:

This is definatley an understated boat in SH3/GWX and it may keep my attention for awhile but it will be hard for me to move away from the long range patrols of the Type 9.




I love the little dinky IID its such a nimble boat, plus forget about the three tubes, pick your targets right and could end up with big tonnage :arrgh!:

[Tobus]

Perhaps I'm missing something. When i start the campaign in 1940, although i can choose which sub i want, i am selected to have the VIIB already. If I want to start with the VIIC i have to pay the 7500 reknown, which is too much, given my starting reknown of 500

Oh btw, if you complete all trainingmissions succesfully, you get 1000 renown for free, so you start with 1500 instead of 500.

[Wilko]

I have never agreed with the renown thing as I am the best Kaleun that deserves what ever boat and the best equipment, the idea that I would not be able to choose what I wanted on my boat is not worth thinking about, as such I always start with 99999 renown in 1939, still do DiD and only access the stuff as it comes available but I just take the renown thing out of the equation as I hate it.

[joegrundman]

3000 reknown, that's what i meant.

That sub school bonus...i did that sub course when i frist got the game about a year ago. now i have a new pc and everything. I can't face doing the course again :nope:

On the whole i like the reknown thing, I am just think that a new commander would probably be given a VIIC after 1940, not a VIIB, as I doubt there were that many VIIB's around at the time, compared to the VIICs

[gord96]

I also have to back the type IID. great boat. I have trouble going back to the type VII and IX after using this one. fun the rip around in. with some well placed shots you can get over 20000t a patrol if you get lucky. :arrgh!:

[Elysion]

If you kill everything in the last exam with out taking too much damage that alone should be enough to let you start with 1500.

Just take out the lead destroyer, torpedo the bigger stuff, surface and chase stuff around with torpedoes and deck gun. Stay behind the armed trawler and it cant use its big gun on you, just machine guns.

That mission alone can yield more than the 'cap' you can get from the training, and its a lot less boring than the 'tutorial' tutorials.

[MENTAT]

If you kill everything in the last exam with out taking too much damage that alone should be enough to let you start with 1500.....


Not necessarily. i just given a try for that and i sunk them all but one. Exam result was satisfactory (not excellent as others) however, when i start up a new career, i see that 1500 is ready waiting for me.

So, you dont have to do well to get it, just finish the tutorial, and 1000 plus will be yours

[Jimbuna]

I have never agreed with the renown thing as I am the best Kaleun that deserves what ever boat and the best equipment, the idea that I would not be able to choose what I wanted on my boat is not worth thinking about, as such I always start with 99999 renown in 1939, still do DiD and only access the stuff as it comes available but I just take the renown thing out of the equation as I hate it.

Probably the easiest way for most kaleuns :yep:

[Sardaukar67]

I prefer VII B over plain VII C too. But when those *deep* diving VII C/41s or VII C/42s are available, I switch to them. Deeper=Safer.

[Avatar]

Hey,
Be careful doing those schools again with GWX, they're much harder than with just the stock game. This was a complete surprise! I had 2 people injured from the gunfire from the flak course. Also, the one with the convoy is tough, unless you sink the destroyer outright, the other patrolcraft doesnt have any dc racks. So you can excellently complete the course. I believe that the extra renown is worth the time, though.

I've often wondered if certain equipmant upgrades play into the different type VII's. For example, hydrophone upgrades. Are they all offered to each type of VII? or are there specific hydrophone upgrades that are VIIC specific? I'm not into conning tower configurations, as I dive as soon as A/C are spotted. But then again, I have yet to get that far in the war to see just how deadly the patrol a/c can get.

The 3 second crashdive difference is huge. That would be the only reason to upgrade to a VIIC.(if the other equipment upgrades are not class specific)

[johan_d]

as I dive as soon as A/C are spotted. But then again, I have yet to get that far in the war to see just how deadly the patrol a/c can get.

The 3 second crashdive difference is huge. That would be the only reason to upgrade to a VIIC.(if the other equipment upgrades are not class specific)

I tasted 1943 a little, and believe me, they are deadly.. so deadly you will laugh at destroyers...

:down:

[Jimbuna]

Upgrades were not available for the VIIB quite simply because they were obselete by the time the upgrade became available (24 built....last one in 1940)
Often the biggest limitation next to age, was size constraints :arrgh!:

http://uboat.net/types/viib.htm