Germany bans Cruise film shoot

[waste gate]

That scientology thing is out of control in Germany. Its their country of course, but it certainly looks like a repeat of history to me. Just a different religion.

Germany has barred the makers of a movie about a plot to kill Adolf Hitler from filming at German military sites because its star Tom Cruise is a Scientologist, the Defense Ministry said on Monday.


http://www.reuters.com/article/entertainmentNews/idUSL253889920070625?feedType=RSS&rpc=22&sp=true


PS I don't particularly like Tom Cruise, but not because of the religion he practices.

[TteFAboB]

Yeah, the Germans don't need a movie remembering the rest of the world that a handful of them finally decided to take action against Hitler.

[CCIP]

I don't particularly like the religion he practices, but not because of Tom Cruise :roll:

Ehhh, it's an over-reaction on the part of Germany. I don't actually complain about the status of scientology there, in fact I'm happy with it. But that's a stupid reason to ban a shoot, not exactly a religious ceremony is it :hmm:

[Chock]

Tom Cruise is a moron, as well as being a misogynist control freak with too many birds on his antenna, and his 'religion' is indeed a scam, but I don't think they should have banned filming because of that. They should have banned filming because Tom Cruise couldn't act his way out of a damp paper bag and, almost without exception, its a tough call to decide whether his movies either suck, or blow. Probably both.:rotfl:

Hey, you can be my wingman.. yeah right:rotfl:

:D Chock

[Skybird]

Second time you jump to the defence of a very dangerous totalitarian psycho-sect that has brought misery to thousands of people and only is about money, political power and economical influence, WG. They are rated as top-threats on the lists of counter-sect projects in European countries. I must wonder if you simply do not know what you are talking about - or if you are a scientologist yourself.

Religion has nothing to do with it. The scientology sect is no religion, not even close to it. It is a sect that abuses people, leads them into heavy psychic dependance, brainwashes and psychologically manipulates them, drives them towards complete self-denial and submission, psychic breakdown, financial exploitation, even suicide. It threatens and vows to hurt, injure and kill members if they leave the sect. It haunts criti9cs and apostates with psycho-terror and diffamation, for months and years. It acts by lies, defamation campaigns, mudthrowing, intimidation, deception and persuasion, and a constant bom,bardement of sues and court files. Preferred target group for harvesting are the young and the rich and influential ones, social leaders and representatives - key figures of social life, preferrably with either political power, or money. Scientology was rejected in several European countires to be accepted as a religion by highest national courts. Intelligence communities warn of them as one of the major threads to constitutional orders of social communities and nations in europe. they are under tight monitoring by intel services in several nations. In Germany, several federal countries also monitor them, and Berlin is about restarting observation again, too, since they said they want to turn the new Berlin centre, close to the governmental quarters, into one of the globally rare elite units of theirs. Some voices, mainly from the intel community, even want to simply prohibit scientology in germany - we even did not prohibit Nazi parties. Says something on the threat level they are rated at.

One either does not know a clue about scientology to defend them, or one is a member. tjhe first can be helped by starting to get informed. The second is either being a victim, or acting criminally and in an attempt to overthrow the constitutional state.

The family of Stauffenberg does not wish to see the Graf being represented by a scientologist, and does not wish their family member, which is a german icon, being abused for a PR stunt by scientology, and the defense ministry also does not want to see a key idol of German military history being linked to scientology. so, permission to shoot the film in the historical Bendlerblock has been rejected. That is all - not more, not less.

It is not about religion. If totalitarian traditions have anything to do with it - than in form of scientology itself.

German authorities have information about the sect wanting to intensify the infiltration of public offices, schools, and economy:

http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/strategiewechsel_aid_64326.html

The battle for Germany is considered by scientology sect to be a very important one, because germany, on the basis of it's totalitarian history, so far has been "a great opressor" to them, and strictly opposes them for very good and fundamental reasons, and more actively than many others. to breach that resistance would be a great propaganda stunt for them. the past months have seen several attempts to infiltrate and manipulate public schools and teachers, and attenpts of getting scientology thinking implemented into school books. they now said that in the future they will delete all reference to scientology from their materials by which they could be identified, so that they are not so easily to be exposed. they also want to turn the new Berlin centre, placed close to the government district, into one of their rare elite units.

If one is acting like that, one can hardly claim to be a religion.

There is a reason why I throw neonazis, islam and scientology all into the same pot. They all are offsprings of the same mind that is named TOTALITARIANISM. And that is something I am definitely allergic to.

Note that I am very critical of Stauffenberg myself.

[Skybird]

Yeah, the Germans don't need a movie remembering the rest of the world that a handful of them finally decided to take action against Hitler.
We made those movies already ourself. we do not need Hollywood for that. Or scientology.

2004: "Aufstand des Gewissens" (hailed as being the most precise movie about the man so far, with excellent actors, it won some film award)

1990 "Stauffenberg - Verschwörung gegen Hitler"

1955 "Der 20. Juli"

And many different docufilms.

And before you fall on your knees and pray for his sould for the rest of the night - did you know that the Graf wanted to make sure that the Third Reich and it'S governmental system prevails, and would negotiate a cease-firing with the Allies after Hitler's death - on same eye level, resulting in not capitulating, but in a draw? Just recent historical analysis and research in newly avaiolable sources, as was first documented in a german Tv docu some months ago, reveleaed that the nature of Stauffenberg and his motivation must be seen in a more differentiated, and less blindly heroic light. He was more loyal to the system than most easily assume at first glance.

[waste gate]

Second time you jump to the defence of a very dangerous totalitarian psycho-sect that has brought misery to thousands of people and only is about money, political power and economical influence, WG. They are rated as top-threats on the lists of counter-sect projects in European countries. I must wonder if you simply do not know what you are talking about - or if you are a scientologist yourself.

Religion has nothing to do with it. The scientology sect is no religion, not even close to it. It is a sect that abuses people, leads them into heavy psychic dependance, brainwashes and psychologically manipulates them, drives them towards complete self-denial and submission, psychic breakdown, financial exploitation, even suicide. It threatens and vows to hurt, injure and kill members if they leave the sect. It haunts criti9cs and apostates with psycho-terror and diffamation, for months and years. It acts by lies, defamation campaigns, mudthrowing, intimidation, deception and persuasion, and a constant bom,bardement of sues and court files. Preferred target group for harvesting are the young and the rich and influential ones, social leaders and representatives - key figures of social life, preferrably with either political power, or money. Scientology was rejected in several European countires to be accepted as a religion by highest national courts. Intelligence communities warn of them as one of the major threads to constitutional orders of social communities and nations in europe. they are under tight monitoring by intel services in several nations. In Germany, several federal countries also monitor them, and Berlin is about restarting observation again, too, since they said they want to turn the new Berlin centre, close to the governmental quarters, into one of the globally rare elite units of theirs. Some voices, mainly from the intel community, even want to simply prohibit scientology in germany - we even did not prohibit Nazi parties. Says something on the threat level they are rated at.

One either does not know a clue about scientology to defend them, or one is a member. tjhe first can be helped by starting to get informed. The second is either being a victim, or acting criminally and in an attempt to overthrow the constitutional state.

The family of Stauffenberg does not wish to see the Graf being represented by a scientologist, and does not wish their family member, which is a german icon, being abused for a PR stunt by scientology, and the defense ministry also does not want to see a key idol of German military history being linked to scientology. so, permission to shoot the film in the historical Bendlerblock has been rejected. That is all - not more, not less.

It is not about religion. If totalitarian traditions have anything to do with it - than in form of scientology itself.

German authorities have information about the sect wanting to intensify the infiltration of public offices, schools, and economy:

http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/strategiewechsel_aid_64326.html

The battle for Germany is considered by scientology sect to be a very important one, because germany, on the basis of it's totalitarian history, so far has been "a great opressor" to them, and strictly opposes them for very good and fundamental reasons, and more actively than many others. to breach that resistance would be a great propaganda stunt for them. the past months have seen several attempts to infiltrate and manipulate public schools and teachers, and attenpts of getting scientology thinking implemented into school books. they now said that in the future they will delete all reference to scientology from their materials by which they could be identified, so that they are not so easily to be exposed.

If one is acting like that, one can hardly claim to be a religion.

Note that I am very critical of Stauffenberg myself.


I thought you placed me on your ignore list Skybird?!

That being said........OK either way.

In response to your post let me point you to an essay by Joseph Goebbels in 1941. Just too many parallels to be healthy.
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb1.htm

[Skybird]

I thought you placed me on your ignore list Skybird?!
Just released you this hour and already regretting it, since the first thing I read - is this.

No parallels in your document. Scientology, and the Jews as victims of a monstrous crime in the 30s and 40s, do not compare, not even close. Scientoloy is no victim - it is the attacker, and liberal democratic societies are meant to be it's prey.

More propaganda from you.

[Thniper]

@Skybird:

Couldn't have said it any better!:up: :up: :up:

I totally agree with you.:yep:

[waste gate]

I thought you placed me on your ignore list Skybird?!
Just released you this hour and already regretting it, since the first thing I read - is this.

No parallels in your document. Scientology, and the Jews as victims of a monstrous crime in the 30s and 40s, do not compare, not even close. Scientoloy is no victim - it is the attacker, and liberal democratic societies are meant to be it's prey.

More propaganda from you.

The essay is accusing the Jews of what you accuse Scientology of being. Insert Scientology where you see Jew and where you see 'the German Reich' insert 'German authorities' and there you have it.

PS
Like I stated its your country. But which religion will the German authorities be going after next?

EDIT: Just so I have it right, you don't like the Poles, you don't like the Scientologists; my question is when in the anschluss? Like I stated unhealthy.

[Reaves]

http://bigpicture.typepad.com/writing/images/05secret_scientologist_xenu_story21.jpg


Is it worse then translating tablets out of a hat though?

[Heibges]

Yeah, the Germans don't need a movie remembering the rest of the world that a handful of them finally decided to take action against Hitler.
We made those movies already ourself. we do not need Hollywood for that. Or scientology.

2004: "Aufstand des Gewissens" (hailed as being the most precise movie about the man so far, with excellent actors, it won some film award)

1990 "Stauffenberg - Verschwörung gegen Hitler"

1955 "Der 20. Juli"

And many different docufilms.

And before you fall on your knees and pray for his sould for the rest of the night - did you know that the Graf wanted to make sure that the Third Reich and it'S governmental system prevails, and would negotiate a cease-firing with the Allies after Hitler's death - on same eye level, resulting in not capitulating, but in a draw? Just recent historical analysis and research in newly avaiolable sources, as was first documented in a german Tv docu some months ago, reveleaed that the nature of Stauffenberg and his motivation must be seen in a more differentiated, and less blindly heroic light. He was more loyal to the system than most easily assume at first glance.

Hey Skybird.

Did you read the new Gunter Grass book "Crabwalk"? It's about the repercussions of the Germans not being able to openly talk about their past, and not being able to grieve for the misfortunes that they experienced during the War.

[P_Funk]

EDIT: Just so I have it right, you don't like the Poles, you don't like the Scientologists; my question is when in the anschluss? Like I stated unhealthy.
There is a twisted and inflammatory remark. That isn't even a rational point, its just a snipe thats trying to piss off Skybird.

This is when you want a moderator to slap little boys on the wrists.

[CCIP]

What good did scientologists do to be defended? And what did they likewise do to deserve being recognized as a religion? You'd think we have enough of those to go around... :hmm:


Seriously, as much as a ban on these grounds from shooting a movie is stupid... I just don't see where the good in these bunch of nuts is. I could make a better religion than that, just that I'm not a filthy rich sci-fi writer who has the money for proper PR.

Also rather funny to come from you waste gate, considering you've called socialism a religion in a negative sense before. You think these nuts are better than socialists, huh... :huh:

[Onkel Neal]

This is a potentially volatile topic, keep it civil, please.

[Reaves]

What good did scientologists do to be defended? And what did they likewise do to deserve being recognized as a religion? You'd think we have enough of those to go around... :hmm:

Seriously, as much as a ban on these grounds from shooting a movie is stupid... I just don't see where the good in these bunch of nuts is. I could make a better religion than that, just that I'm not a filthy rich sci-fi writer who has the money for proper PR.



The fact that people can believe in it is the scariest. I'd sooner believe in Jedi as a legitimate religion than the far fetched fiction that is scientology.

[waste gate]

EDIT: Just so I have it right, you don't like the Poles, you don't like the Scientologists; my question is when in the anschluss? Like I stated unhealthy.
There is a twisted and inflammatory remark. That isn't even a rational point, its just a snipe thats trying to piss off Skybird.



No, it was done to place a sharper point on the unhealthy parallels I see.

[bookworm_020]

What good did scientologists do to be defended? And what did they likewise do to deserve being recognized as a religion? You'd think we have enough of those to go around... :hmm:

Seriously, as much as a ban on these grounds from shooting a movie is stupid... I just don't see where the good in these bunch of nuts is. I could make a better religion than that, just that I'm not a filthy rich sci-fi writer who has the money for proper PR.


The fact that people can believe in it is the scariest. I'd sooner believe in Jedi as a legitimate religion than the far fetched fiction that is scientology.

:rotfl::rotfl:

I belive that the Sith outnumbered Jedi in the last senses! The guy who started scientology was a si-fi writer, who said once said "if you want to make money, start a religion":doh:

The Ban on Tom Cruise, well a ban on him is good, no matter what brought it on!:rock:

[Reaves]

I belive that the Sith outnumbered Jedi in the last senses! The guy who started scientology was a si-fi writer, who said once said "if you want to make money, start a religion":doh:

The Ban on Tom Cruise, well a ban on him is good, no matter what brought it on!:rock:

I know I said I was a Jedi when I filled it out. :up: When enough people do that the government is forced to acknowledge it as a religion iirc.

[Chock]

You see, there's a dilemma: on the one hand you've got old L Ron saying that, but he was mentally ill, so you can take it with a pinch of Kerbango, but on the other hand, he did actually make money at it, so much in fact, that he managed to start his own 'Navy', which is probably something we'd all like to have a crack at on these forums...

So, I'm off to overdose on Thorazine flip my lid and start a religion, anyone know where I can buy a Type VIIC ?

:D Chock

[waste gate]

anyone know where I can buy a Type VIIC ?

:D Chock

Here you go Chock!!

http://freakcomics.com/images/posts/comicads/sub_sm.jpg (http://freakcomics.com/images/posts/comicads/sub_lg.jpg)

[Chock]

Cool, that solves one problem, but I can see that I'll be needing to attract a few actors to my religion with sub-surface Naval skills, I mean there's no point in getting Travolta with his (pseudo DC-8) Boeing 707.

I'm thinking, Sean Connery, Denzil Washington, Jurgen Prochnow, Harrison Ford and Alec Baldwin for a kick off.

Now... What to call my religion..?

:D Chock

[Chock]

I've got it! I'm going to call it 'Inner sense' - because I will basically be preying on people's 'innocence' and it will be fun to see if any of those Hollywood dumbasses managed to spot that.

:D Chock

[P_Funk]

EDIT: Just so I have it right, you don't like the Poles, you don't like the Scientologists; my question is when in the anschluss? Like I stated unhealthy. There is a twisted and inflammatory remark. That isn't even a rational point, its just a snipe thats trying to piss off Skybird.


No, it was done to place a sharper point on the unhealthy parallels I see. Parallels that Skybird already answered in post #8. The difference now though is that you are wording it in such a way as to infer he has similarities to Nazis in his beliefs.

I'm very wary of any comparisons to the Nazis. Its overdone. As John Stuart said once "Hey you know who's like Hitler? HITLER! Hitler worked really hard to be as bad as he was." I'm paraphrasing that sorta but you get the point. Its a bad idea to make those comparisons, and certainly in bad taste.

[waste gate]

Cool, that solves one problem, but I can see that I'll be needing to attract a few actors to my religion with sub-surface Naval skills, I mean there's no point in getting Travolta with his (pseudo DC-8) Boeing 707.

I'm thinking, Sean Connery, Denzil Washington, Jurgen Prochnow, Harrison Ford and Alec Baldwin for a kick off.

Now... What to call my religion..?

:D Chock

Chockism? Chockistanity? IsChock? Chocklam? :D Off the top of my head.

[Chock]

Chocklam is good, it sort of sounds like Chocolate and Islam mixed together, so it will have the Islamic bit to attract blokes, and the chocolate bit to attract women.

Chocklam - The sugar-coated religion!

:D Chock

[waste gate]

Chocklam - The sugar-coated religion!

:D Chock

I love it!!! The offerings can be in Hersey bars. Or for the rich faithful something from Switzerland with 80% cocoa butter.

[geetrue]

Not to get off subject or anything, but who was Tom Cruise going to play, before they shut the filming down?

[Chock]

An even better slogan...

Chocklam - The sugar-coated religion that anyone will swallow

:D Chock

[Chock]

Tom Cruise was/is going to play Claus von Stauffenberg, although since he's a bit of a control freak, I would have thought he'd be bucking for the Hitler role

'they lose me right after the bunker scene'

:D Chock

[waste gate]

EDIT: Just so I have it right, you don't like the Poles, you don't like the Scientologists; my question is when in the anschluss? Like I stated unhealthy. There is a twisted and inflammatory remark. That isn't even a rational point, its just a snipe thats trying to piss off Skybird.


No, it was done to place a sharper point on the unhealthy parallels I see. Parallels that Skybird already answered in post #8. The difference now though is that you are wording it in such a way as to infer he has similarities to Nazis in his beliefs.

I'm very wary of any comparisons to the Nazis. Its overdone. As John Stuart said once "Hey you know who's like Hitler? HITLER! Hitler worked really hard to be as bad as he was." I'm paraphrasing that sorta but you get the point. Its a bad idea to make those comparisons, and certainly in bad taste.


I'm glad to see you have gotten into the spirit of the light heartedness that this thread has become P-funk. Quoting John Stuart, the comedian, was in the spirit of the thread as it currently stands.

[P_Funk]

I'm glad to see you have gotten into the spirit of the light heartedness that this thread has become P-funk. Quoting John Stuart, the comedian, was in the spirit of the thread as it currently stands.
Oh boy. Must I say it again? Ad hominem. Jon Stewart may be a comedian but that doesn't dismiss his remarks. Tell me where what he said is not apt.

[waste gate]

I'm glad to see you have gotten into the spirit of the light heartedness that this thread has become P-funk. Quoting John Stuart, the comedian, was in the spirit of the thread as it currently stands.
Oh boy. Must I say it again? Ad hominem. Jon Stewart may be a comedian but that doesn't dismiss his remarks. Tell me where what he said is not apt.

Now you are loosing the spirit of Chocklam P-funk. Some one give him a Hersey bar.:D

[Reaves]

I'm glad to see you have gotten into the spirit of the light heartedness that this thread has become P-funk. Quoting John Stuart, the comedian, was in the spirit of the thread as it currently stands. Oh boy. Must I say it again? Ad hominem. Jon Stewart may be a comedian but that doesn't dismiss his remarks. Tell me where what he said is not apt.
Now you are loosing the spirit of Chocklam P-funk. Some one give him a Hersey bar.:D

Hersey bars are considered Heresey in Chocklam. :rotfl:

[waste gate]

I'm glad to see you have gotten into the spirit of the light heartedness that this thread has become P-funk. Quoting John Stuart, the comedian, was in the spirit of the thread as it currently stands. Oh boy. Must I say it again? Ad hominem. Jon Stewart may be a comedian but that doesn't dismiss his remarks. Tell me where what he said is not apt.
Now you are loosing the spirit of Chocklam P-funk. Some one give him a Hersey bar.:D

Hersey bars are considered Heresey in Chocklam. :rotfl:

Could be, Reaves. I don't know. I have yet to be dipped in chocolate.
I am very much looking forward to that baptism. I guess its up to Chock as to how he promulgates Chocklam.

[waste gate]

I think I have mentioned my German heritage in the past, and in the interest of transperancy I will show you the social network of one of my relatives.

http://www.namebase.org/cgi-bin/nb06?_VON%20MILDENSTEIN_LEOPOLD_

OK, now that you know I'd like some chocolate.

[SUBMAN1]

I can see why Germany doesn't want any Scientology people in their country after the Nazis. It is along the very same lines.

Let's see, Scientology brainwashes their followers with what they call reprogramming - basically hypnotism that is re-enforced due to sensory depravation over very long periods of time. Tom Cruise has been through this re-programming at there Cali camp.

Scientology's mission is to take over the entire world, by force if neccesary. Part of how they plan to do this is to take control of the media and celebrities so that they can drill Scientology into your brain because all the cool celebs follow it. Some others include John Travolta, and the Presley's. They make extra special effort to accomidate all celebs.

The FBI rates it as a possible terrorists organization and watches their every move closely.

So why exactly would Germany want this filth in their country? Good for Germany.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Second time you jump to the defence of a very dangerous totalitarian psycho-sect that has brought misery to thousands of people and only is about money, political power and economical influence, WG. They are rated as top-threats on the lists of counter-sect projects in European countries. I must wonder if you simply do not know what you are talking about - or if you are a scientologist yourself.

Religion has nothing to do with it. The scientology sect is no religion, not even close to it. It is a sect that abuses people, leads them into heavy psychic dependance, brainwashes and psychologically manipulates them, drives them towards complete self-denial and submission, psychic breakdown, financial exploitation, even suicide. It threatens and vows to hurt, injure and kill members if they leave the sect. It haunts criti9cs and apostates with psycho-terror and diffamation, for months and years. It acts by lies, defamation campaigns, mudthrowing, intimidation, deception and persuasion, and a constant bom,bardement of sues and court files. Preferred target group for harvesting are the young and the rich and influential ones, social leaders and representatives - key figures of social life, preferrably with either political power, or money. Scientology was rejected in several European countires to be accepted as a religion by highest national courts. Intelligence communities warn of them as one of the major threads to constitutional orders of social communities and nations in europe. they are under tight monitoring by intel services in several nations. In Germany, several federal countries also monitor them, and Berlin is about restarting observation again, too, since they said they want to turn the new Berlin centre, close to the governmental quarters, into one of the globally rare elite units of theirs. Some voices, mainly from the intel community, even want to simply prohibit scientology in germany - we even did not prohibit Nazi parties. Says something on the threat level they are rated at.

One either does not know a clue about scientology to defend them, or one is a member. tjhe first can be helped by starting to get informed. The second is either being a victim, or acting criminally and in an attempt to overthrow the constitutional state.

The family of Stauffenberg does not wish to see the Graf being represented by a scientologist, and does not wish their family member, which is a german icon, being abused for a PR stunt by scientology, and the defense ministry also does not want to see a key idol of German military history being linked to scientology. so, permission to shoot the film in the historical Bendlerblock has been rejected. That is all - not more, not less.

It is not about religion. If totalitarian traditions have anything to do with it - than in form of scientology itself.

German authorities have information about the sect wanting to intensify the infiltration of public offices, schools, and economy:

http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/strategiewechsel_aid_64326.html

The battle for Germany is considered by scientology sect to be a very important one, because germany, on the basis of it's totalitarian history, so far has been "a great opressor" to them, and strictly opposes them for very good and fundamental reasons, and more actively than many others. to breach that resistance would be a great propaganda stunt for them. the past months have seen several attempts to infiltrate and manipulate public schools and teachers, and attenpts of getting scientology thinking implemented into school books. they now said that in the future they will delete all reference to scientology from their materials by which they could be identified, so that they are not so easily to be exposed. they also want to turn the new Berlin centre, placed close to the government district, into one of their rare elite units.

If one is acting like that, one can hardly claim to be a religion.

There is a reason why I throw neonazis, islam and scientology all into the same pot. They all are offsprings of the same mind that is named TOTALITARIANISM. And that is something I am definitely allergic to.

Note that I am very critical of Stauffenberg myself.

Skybird hit the nail on the head here. 100% I agree. Not a normal thing for me to agree with you Skybird, but can't deny your dislike for this cult, and I also dislike this cult.

-S

[waste gate]

Wasn't Christianity considered a cult by both the Jews and the Romans?

How about the followers of Martin Luther?

[August]

Woah, people are jumping on the intolerance bandwagon pretty quickly here.

Is this cult making the movie, or is (was) Cruise just going to be acting in it? That is the key question here imo. If it's the latter then what Germany is saying is that no one associated with an unpopular "religion" has a right to make a living on their soil. It's their business i guess, being their country, but i'll be expecting them to apply that standard to every Scientology member within their borders from big shot actors on down to a lowly convenience store clerk. Equal treatment under the law is the foundation of a representative government.

The only valid argument here imo is that the family doesn't want it and that's more an emotional opinion than a realistic one, because while I believe families should have some say in how historical events concerning their ancestors are portrayed, denying the freedom of expression based on who a person is, rather than what he has done or what he is saying (the old yelling fire in a theater analogy), is plain wrong.

[Reaves]

Woah, people are jumping on the intolerance bandwagon pretty quickly here.

Is this cult making the movie, or is (was) Cruise just going to be acting in it? That is the key question here imo. If it's the latter then what Germany is saying is that no one associated with an unpopular "religion" has a right to make a living on their soil. It's their business i guess, being their country, but i'll be expecting them to apply that standard to every Scientology member within their borders from big shot actors on down to a lowly convenience store clerk. Equal treatment under the law is the foundation of a representative government.

The only valid argument here imo is that the family doesn't want it and that's more an emotional opinion than a realistic one, because while I believe families should have some say in how historical events concerning their ancestors are portrayed, denying the freedom of expression based on who a person is, rather than what he has done or what he is saying (the old yelling fire in a theater analogy), is plain wrong.

:yep:

As much as I dislike scientologists, purely due to the fact I think they are daft, you are 100% correct.

[P_Funk]

Wasn't Christianity considered a cult by both the Jews and the Romans?

How about the followers of Martin Luther?
That might be a correlative truth but it doesn't really change anything. Just because other religions have been called cults before doesn't mean that they're all automatically not. The polygamists in the US and Canada are called a cult too, so are you going to rush to their defense?

[The Avon Lady]

It should be the right of any government to rule that a religion is a danger to its citizens or an outright business fraud scam.

Obviously, this is a very slippery slope and has to be decided by a reliable government body ( :ping: oxymoron alert! :ping: ).

[joea]

I find it ironic that so many are jumping to the defence of a cult that has very few characteristics of other "religions" but say nothing when the subject is Islam. :hmm:

Skybird is nothing if not coherent most of the time. ;)

[Skybird]

The essay is accusing the Jews of what you accuse Scientology of being. Insert Scientology where you see Jew and where you see 'the German Reich' insert 'German authorities' and there you have it.

PS
Like I stated its your country. But which religion will the German authorities be going after next?

EDIT: Just so I have it right, you don't like the Poles, you don't like the Scientologists; my question is when in the anschluss? Like I stated unhealthy.
You are a provocating troll, and provocation is all you are after. Your statements above have zero meaning concerning the reality, as I said. This is not the 30s, I am not goebbels, and scientology is not the persecuted Jews. If scientology would get heavy influence in german politics - then Germany would turn out to become that nasty place that you accuse it to already be right now.

scientology is a aggressively acting sect, it is totalitarian, and it hurts people and exploits them. It is no religion, never was a religion, never will be a religion.

But today it has become common habit that every buffoon can show up and tell people that his thoughts and deeds, no matter how hurting to others, how damaging to a state, how stupid and illogical and unreasonable they may be, were just his innocent, precious "religion" - and he will promptly be considered to be untouchable, because "Pssssst! He is about religion, you know... :o " Every crap and every criminal intention gets excused by that. To ask if the thing in question really is a religion, a cultural tradition, or soemthing like that, and if it really is worth to be tolerated, and really is not damaging to our own societies, and the wellbeing of the citizens in our nations, already is successfully prevented by doing that way. - But I don't buy that.

Hubbard once said something like this: if you want to make really big money, don't just write funny books - found a religion. - So much for the authenticity of the "religion" thing with scientology.

[The Avon Lady]

As a Jew, who lost so many relatives to the Germans and their supporters, I say Skybird's got it just right.

[Skybird]

http://bigpicture.typepad.com/writing/images/05secret_scientologist_xenu_story21.jpg


Is it worse then translating tablets out of a hat though?
What private people believe, is not my interest. They can beliece as silly things as they want.
The acting of the organisation, it's psychological manipulation and control it uses on it's members, the demand for totalitarian control of economy and politics, is the danger, the disgusting thing,

Lieing, intimidating, mudthrowing, defamation, threatening by which this organization tries to push it's agenda, their attempt to secure beahheads in public education from where they can increase their possebility to even indoctrinate the youngest of the young is what is revealing it's true nature.

That they now start to hide their own identity even in their own material, is what speaks against them to reveal a true relgious truth to the world. It is about overcoming the states defense mechanism instead, and to betray and trap the private person that they have set their target sights on.

The aiming for money-money-money and the design of the hierarchical structure that is aiming of stripping people of their private money more and more in order to give them access to higher " levels of reveleations", and in order to make them work more hard to bring up the money for these paymenets to scientology is illustrating all one need to know in important things about this cynical sect that is managed like an economical empire.

and that they aggressively and cold-heartedly favour the strong one exlcusively, and to not know about the weakness of man that we all carry in us, too, shows how brutal and inhumane they really are. There is no love for thy next in that, and no human warmth. but every year many, many broken souls with ruined existences and major psychological problems. No wonder that scientology fights so bitterly against psychiatry - it reveals the real ammount of damage and inhumanity commited by this sect. What was it with mother and baby not allowed to most naturally cry when giving birth...?

Did Jesus act like this? Is it common practice in Judaism? Animism? Shinto? Has Buddha told people to treat other people in this way? Hinduism? Rural Taoism? Can anyone show up with an example of a widely accepted religion (in the strict meaning of the word) that compares to scientology? Indian's culture? Scandinavia mythology? Celtic culture? Anything...?

The movie "Getacca", despite the genetical implications, reminded me very much of scientology, too. Maybe some of you would accept to live in such a society. But I would search to destroy it. It's for robots, not man.

[Skybird]

On the remarks some people made that germany "bans shooting the movie", and that the family of Stauffenberg prevented the shooting.

Germany does not and cannot ban the shooting. It has no legal powers to do so. Germany simply refuses to cooperate in making a desired location, that is under administrative control of the German state authority, available to the shoot. Like you have the right to say No! when somebody asks you if he can film in your house.

The family of stauffenberg expressed their worries and concerns, but also admitted in writing that they have no legal means available to prevent scientology's engagement in that movie. that they are not happy that a known representant of a totalitarian organization plays the role of a man who died in order to overcome a totalitarian dictator, makes sense, don't you think? ;) See here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108743

[U-533]

Scientology...:roll: HAA!

Next it will be "We came from monkeys"...:roll: haa.


The Avon Lady said It should be the right of any government to rule that a religion is a danger to its citizens or an outright business fraud scam.

Obviously, this is a very slippery slope and has to be decided by a reliable government body ( :ping: oxymoron alert! :ping: ).

I tend to agree, as long as the majority of it's citizens agree.
:sunny:

[Skybird]

Scientology...:roll: HAA!

Next it will be "We came from monkeys"...:roll: haa.


The Avon Lady said It should be the right of any government to rule that a religion is a danger to its citizens or an outright business fraud scam.

Obviously, this is a very slippery slope and has to be decided by a reliable government body ( :ping: oxymoron alert! :ping: ).

I tend to agree, as long as the majority of it's citizens agree.
:sunny:

I can assure you that this is the case in Germany. Talking of a very, very large majority.

[Skybird]

Second time you jump to the defence of a very dangerous totalitarian psycho-sect that has brought misery to thousands of people and (...) springs of the same mind that is named TOTALITARIANISM. And that is something I am definitely allergic to.

Note that I am very critical of Stauffenberg myself.

Skybird hit the nail on the head here. 100% I agree. Not a normal thing for me to agree with you Skybird, but can't deny your dislike for this cult, and I also dislike this cult.

-SI needed to read it twice to believe it. :lol:

[Skybird]

Woah, people are jumping on the intolerance bandwagon pretty quickly here.

Is this cult making the movie, or is (was) Cruise just going to be acting in it? That is the key question here imo. If it's the latter then what Germany is saying is that no one associated with an unpopular "religion" has a right to make a living on their soil. It's their business i guess, being their country, but i'll be expecting them to apply that standard to every Scientology member within their borders from big shot actors on down to a lowly convenience store clerk. Equal treatment under the law is the foundation of a representative government.

In the fedearl country of Bavaria, persons wanting to become teachers must sign a declaration that they have no lnks to scientology.

Beamte (civil servants? officials?) entering state service can be fired in germany on the basis of acting against the free-democratic constitutional order of the state. The constitution also limits basic rights and freedoms in that way that these rights become invalid and are not longer granted to a person if he/she isthreatening or trying to act against the basic constitional order of the the state. since the Verfassungsschutz (internal intelligence service, compares to the FBI), rates Scientology as a severe threat to the constituion and labels them as "extrem verfassungsfeindlich", it is only consequent to have scientologists in public offices and education under tight control and trying to get rid of them, or to even prevent them from entering service. So, it is not only in conformity with principal laws, but even with our constitution which was designed under massive american influence and supervision, btw.).

Scientology, like Waste Gate as well, of course hacks away against his by always referring to the Nazis, in excalty the way WG did. Banning scioentologists, they say, is like demanding "Deutsche, kauft nicht bei Scientologen!" (a reference to infamous historical quotings like "Deutsche, kauft nicht bei Juden"). But it does not compare, the roles are totally different.

France and Italy are two other european countries also known for going tough against scientology. In the late 80s and early 90s, they had 60-70 police raids and started charges of money laundering, tax fraud, a multitude of violations of economic laws, abuse of mentally deranged people, blackmailing, coercion, medical practicing without legal permission (Aprobation), violation of "Fürsorgepflicht", promoting child labour, torture, violation of laws regulating the working conditions of employees (employees were working until total physical exhaustion and complete breakdown)

As a former psychologist I must add to this that most cases of people and apostates finding their way into therapy due to psychological abuse and being exploited in a state of psychological dependance, never find their way to the courts, nevertheless show major degrees of psychiatric disorders, and generally-spoken: extreme psychological vulnerabilities.

In a way, scientology takes capitalism to extremes. no wonder that it is more popular in the anglosaxon world that is traditionally in favour of ultra-liberal self-regulation of the market, and uncontrolld capitalism. On EU level, it also finds allies amongst those politcal circles that share the general sympathy for this description of economy. What sceintology promotes is the law of the strongest, and the weak is left in the dust, and pays by being exploited. - End of the religious message.

[August]

In the fedearl country of Bavaria, persons wanting to become teachers must sign a declaration that they have no lnks to scientology.

Beamte (civil servants? officials?) entering state service can be fired in germany on the basis of acting against the free-democratic constitutional order of the state. The constitution also limits basic rights and freedoms in that way that these rights become invalid and are not longer granted to a person if he/she isthreatening or trying to act against the basic constitional order of the the state. since the Verfassungsschutz (internal intelligence service, compares to the FBI), rates Scientology as a severe threat to the constituion and labels them as "extrem verfassungsfeindlich", it is only consequent to have scientologists in public offices and education under tight control and trying to get rid of them, or to even prevent them from entering service. So, it is not only in conformity with principal laws, but even with our constitution which was designed under massive american influence and supervision, btw.).

Scientology, like Waste Gate as well, of course hacks away against his by always referring to the Nazis, in excalty the way WG did. Banning scioentologists, they say, is like demanding "Deutsche, kauft nicht bei Scientologen!" (a reference to infamous historical quotings like "Deutsche, kauft nicht bei Juden"). But it does not compare, the roles are totally different.

France and Italy are two other european countries also known for going tough against scientology. In the late 80s and early 90s, they had 60-70 police raids and started charges of money laundering, tax fraud, a multitude of violations of economic laws, abuse of mentally deranged people, blackmailing, coercion, medical practicing without legal permission (Aprobation), violation of "Fürsorgepflicht", promoting child labour, torture, violation of laws regulating the working conditions of employees (employees were working until total physical exhaustion and complete breakdown)

As a former psychologist I must add to this that most cases of people and apostates finding their way into therapy due to psychological abuse and being exploited in a state of psychological dependance, never find their way to the courts, nevertheless show major degrees of psychiatric disorders, and generally-spoken: extreme psychological vulnerabilities.

In a way, scientology takes capitalism to extremes. no wonder that it is more popular in the anglosaxon world that is traditionally in favour of ultra-liberal self-regulation of the market, and uncontrolld capitalism. On EU level, it also finds allies amongst those politcal circles that share the general sympathy for this description of economy. What sceintology promotes is the law of the strongest, and the weak is left in the dust, and pays by being exploited. - End of the religious message.

Sky, like I said your country your business, but don't try to justify your countries persecution of yet another subset of people because it won't wash.

An actor is not a teacher or a government official so I fail to see how Germany can justify their claim that Tom Cruise *the individual* is guilty of "threatening or trying to act against the basic constitional order of the state" just by acting in a movie.

[The Avon Lady]

An actor is not a teacher or a government official so I fail to see how Germany can justify their claim that Tom Cruise *the individual* is guilty of "threatening or trying to act against the basic constitional order of the state" just by acting in a movie.
Skybird already said:

Germany does not and cannot ban the shooting. It has no legal powers to do so. Germany simply refuses to cooperate in making a desired location, that is under administrative control of the German state authority, available to the shoot. Like you have the right to say No! when somebody asks you if he can film in your house.

[August]

An actor is not a teacher or a government official so I fail to see how Germany can justify their claim that Tom Cruise *the individual* is guilty of "threatening or trying to act against the basic constitional order of the state" just by acting in a movie. Skybird already said:
Germany does not and cannot ban the shooting. It has no legal powers to do so. Germany simply refuses to cooperate in making a desired location, that is under administrative control of the German state authority, available to the shoot. Like you have the right to say No! when somebody asks you if he can film in your house.

Like I said, their country their business.

[Chock]

This argument is something that crops up to a greater or lesser degree whenever any of Scientology's flagship supporters make a movie, most notably when Travolta had his pet project to shoot L Ron Hubbard's Battlefield Earth some years ago.

Having read that book (which it's true is no Tale of Two Cities, but nevertheless quite a decent page-turner), I found myself disagreeing with many who were slamming the book and the subsequent movie as rubbish (many of whom had never troubled themselves to read read the book or see the movie and thus form a true opinion). It was clear many critics of the book and movie had an agenda where Scientology was concerned and channelled that vitriol into their criticisms of the book, and particularly the movie. Both of which are nowhere near as bad as is popularly touted, but are tarred with that opinion largely because of many critics' inherent dislike for Scientology.

I, and I imagine most other people, do not base what movies they choose to watch on whether the actors and producers vote the same way as me, unless of course their movie is trying to ram their ideology down my throat. If he was doing a remake of Jude Suss or something, I think we might have an argument.

Now, I am not even remotely in favour of Scientology, but I nevertheless thought that to use one's dislike of it to slam something else was rather a cheap shot. Back on the subject of Tom's latest 'masterpiece', it's apparent that the same methods are being used to forestall its production, and whilst I personally am quite amused to see people making life hard for Tom Cruise, I do think that confusing one issue with another in order to prevent filming is not really easy to condone if you believe in freedom of expression.

At the end of the day, I would place my faith in the fact that it's likely to be a turkey of massive proportions if TC is involved in it, thus allowing him to fall on his own sword, rather than being pushed onto it by misguided censorship.

:D Chock

[SUBMAN1]

...Hubbard once said something like this: if you want to make really big money, don't just write funny books - found a religion. - So much for the authenticity of the "religion" thing with scientology.

Just look at 'The Secret'. It was dreamed up by a prostitute who is now filthy rich.

-S

[kiwi_2005]

Scientology is a made up fable by the author L. Ron Hubbard, you have to watch the documentary about his life which has ex members speaking out. The guy was mad as a rabbit, well mad in a sense but was pretty clued up he knew how to manipulate others and was a master in hypnosis. He made it up one of his fictional stories which he used as a tool to get rich quick schemes. Which he ended up broke and depressed later on.
He was a con man and your laugh your head off at how dumb his followers were. Can't put the link up cause its against the rules, but join up with Video google and find it there. Or could probably be found on YouTube.

[geetrue]

Your right kiwi, plus I can see your righteous anger ...

I don't have time to waste on that link even if it was up ... fiction is fiction, science is science.
Ron Hubbard put them both together ...

definition of science

the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding;

definition of fiction

something invented by the imagination or feigned;

[The Avon Lady]

Oh oh... :shifty:

[Heibges]

Your right kiwi, plus I can see your righteous anger ...

I don't have time to waste on that link even if it was up ... fiction is fiction, science is science.
Ron Hubbard put them both together ...

definition of science

the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding;

definition of fiction

something invented by the imagination or feigned;

What about?

Kurt Vonnegut
Ray Bradbury
Frank Herbert
Thomas Pynchon
Phillip K Dick
Robert Heinlein

[geetrue]

Your right kiwi, plus I can see your righteous anger ...

I don't have time to waste on that link even if it was up ... fiction is fiction, science is science.
Ron Hubbard put them both together ...

definition of science

the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding;

definition of fiction

something invented by the imagination or feigned;

What about?

Kurt Vonnegut
Ray Bradbury
Frank Herbert
Thomas Pynchon
Phillip K Dick
Robert Heinlein

I'm sorry, I had just woke up here on the west coast when I posted that ...

I meant to include the dirty word religion.

definition of religion

a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

Hinduism
Buddaism
Muslimism
Christianism
Judaism

"Religion is just an organized disciplined way to serve God"
"The only problem is, we don't all have the same God"
Author unknown

[Heibges]

Your right kiwi, plus I can see your righteous anger ...

I don't have time to waste on that link even if it was up ... fiction is fiction, science is science.
Ron Hubbard put them both together ...

definition of science

the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding;

definition of fiction

something invented by the imagination or feigned;

What about?

Kurt Vonnegut
Ray Bradbury
Frank Herbert
Thomas Pynchon
Phillip K Dick
Robert Heinlein

I'm sorry, I had just woke up here on the west coast when I posted that ...

I meant to include the dirty word religion.

definition of religion

a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

Hinduism
Buddaism
Muslimism
Christianism
Judaism

"Religion is just an organized disciplined way to serve God"
"The only problem is, we don't all have the same God"
Author unknown

I try to be openminded, but I admit I see little difference between the Scientologists, the Unificationists (Moonies), and the Peoples Temple that started here in San Francisco.

[Smaragdadler]

Scientology is a fraud right from it's very basic roots. It's founder was paid - and his organisation still is controlled - by us intelligence circles.
I will give no sources for the second statement but a hint about the first...

--> http://www.ezlink.com/~perry/CoS/Theology/crowley3.htm

[August]

Scientology is a fraud right from it's very basic roots. It's founder was paid - and his organisation still is controlled - by us intelligence circles.
I will give no sources for the second statement but a hint about the first...

--> http://www.ezlink.com/~perry/CoS/Theology/crowley3.htm (http://www.ezlink.com/%7Eperry/CoS/Theology/crowley3.htm)

Well I think you're the paid agent of spy circles. I will not give my sources though... :roll:

[Chock]

Here's a link for sources, you might find it useful if you ever want to make unsubstantiated statements and then quote a source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauce

:D Chock

[Skybird]

Sky, like I said your country your business, but don't try to justify your countries persecution of yet another subset of people because it won't wash.

An actor is not a teacher or a government official so I fail to see how Germany can justify their claim that Tom Cruise *the individual* is guilty of "threatening or trying to act against the basic constitional order of the state" just by acting in a movie.

You know that it is not as simplistic as you try to paint it.

[SUBMAN1]

http://www.whyaretheydead.net/krasel/aff_at.html

"[...] 23. In these various Scientology posts, I observed how the inner most parts of Scientology worked. I observed, participated in and was victimized by coercive and manipulative thought control processes designed to shape the thinking of the individuals upon whom these procedures were imposed. These practices are particularly prevalent in the Rehabilitation Project Force ('RPF') , a brainwashing and penal operation very similar to what I had been trained to expect from the Viet Cong, North Vietnamese and Red Chinese during my tour of duty in Vietnam.

"24. I knew L. Ron Hubbard ("Hubbard") personally. I worked directly for Hubbard, the founder of the Scientology belief system. Hubbard was Miscavige's predecessor as head of Scientology."

Seems a threat to any government. I particulary like this part:

INSTRUCTIONS TO CAUSE SUICIDE

45. I received instructions directly from Ray Mithoff to use the Hubbard Tech of thought reform to drive Tom Ashworth to a psychotic break. The express object of the exercise was to drive Tom crazy and to commit suicide. Tom went PTS Type III and attempted suicide. Later, Tom escaped from RPF and was caught, brought back against his will, isolated with 2 guards and more thought processes were used on him to calm him down rather than have him kill himself.

46. I also saw and heard the Hubbard Tech of thought reform used to drive Gary Epstein to a PTS Type III psychotic break as punishment for his refusal to comply with orders he received from the Wayne Marple mission.


47. I saw these same techniques used on persons who had not violated any Scientology laws or requirements. The techniques were used to compel persons to go up the Scientology Bridge to total freedom. Advancing up the Bridge requires attending courses and auditing or processing. Both the courses and auditing becomes more expensive the further up the Bridge a Scientologist goes. So, these thought reform techniques are callously employed to generate ever increasing sums of income for Scientology.

Or how about what Scientology won't tell you?
http://www.xenu.net/archive/infopack/

I can go on all day about the abuses of this cult, but the point is that they are a major danger to any government and I think any cult that is on the FBI's crime syndicate watch list is one that should be not taken lightly. Any key representative from this organization should be able to have their visa denied as well.

Just my 2 cents.

-S

[Smaragdadler]

Well I think ... :roll:

You are free to think, what you will.
Scientology would not let you, if they could.
That's the point.

[Skybird]

Well I think ... :roll:

You are free to think, what you will.
Scientology would not let you, if they could.
That's the point.
:D
Shortness, yet precision - a virtue I lack! :lol:

[The Avon Lady]

Well I think ... :roll:

You are free to think, what you will.
Scientology would not let you, if they could.
That's the point.
:D
Shortness, yet precision - a virtue I lack! :lol:
A good start. :yep:

[Heibges]

Firstly, I've been organizing a similar campaign to get Nicholas Cage banned from movies althogether, but on the grounds of rampant overacting rather than being a Scientologist.

Secondly, I didn't know von Stauffenberg was 4' 5".

[Chock]

I'm personally waiting for Tom to go the 'method acting route' and have several amputations in order to get into the role, although this is going to make life hard for him, as he already can't act either with or without one hand tied behind his back. As evidenced by his 'Oirish' accent in Far and Away, so gawd alone knows what kind of a travesty attempting to play a German is going to result in.

:D Chock

[August]

Well I think ... :roll:
You are free to think, what you will.
Scientology would not let you, if they could.
That's the point.

I didn't say I wanted to join them.

The question I was addressing is whether a person from a politically unpopular (but not illegal) group or religion should be denied the right to work in a private sector job.

It doesn't have to be Scientologists, any unpopular social or ethnic group will do. For example substitute the word "Scientologist" for "Communist" in any of the anti diatrabes in this thread including yours above and they look like Joe MaCarthy speeches.

But like i've said 3-4 times already, It's the Germans country, therefore a German decision.

[Heibges]

Well I think ... :roll:
You are free to think, what you will.
Scientology would not let you, if they could.
That's the point.

I didn't say I wanted to join them.

The question I was addressing is whether a person from a politically unpopular (but not illegal) group or religion should be denied the right to work in a private sector job.

It doesn't have to be Scientologists, any unpopular social or ethnic group will do. For example substitute the word "Scientologist" for "Communist" in any of the anti diatrabes in this thread including yours above and they look like Joe MaCarthy speeches.

But like i've said 3-4 times already, It's the Germans country, therefore a German decision.

He is not being denied the right to work, nor is he being denied the right to enter Germany. The production company will just have to shoot at a different location.

[August]

He is not being denied the right to work, nor is he being denied the right to enter Germany. The production company will just have to shoot at a different location.

Maybe so, or he will be replaced by a more politically correct actor, which would then be a defacto denial of the right to work. But again it's their country.

[Skybird]

He is not being denied the right to work, nor is he being denied the right to enter Germany. The production company will just have to shoot at a different location.

Maybe so, or he will be replaced by a more politically correct actor, which would then be a defacto denial of the right to work. But again it's their country.
Yes, a denial to work, legally, and meeting the laws as well as the constitution. I am sure it is exactly the same in you country, when the specified conditions are met. ;)

[Smaragdadler]

I didn't say I wanted to join them.

The question I was addressing is whether a person from a politically unpopular (but not illegal) group or religion should be denied the right to work in a private sector job.

It doesn't have to be Scientologists, any unpopular social or ethnic group will do. For example substitute the word "Scientologist" for "Communist" in any of the anti diatrabes in this thread including yours above and they look like Joe MaCarthy speeches.

But like i've said 3-4 times already, It's the Germans country, therefore a German decision.
In a way I even agree with you. But you have always to look too, who is the "victim". In this case of Scientology it is clearly the wolf, who claims to be the sheep hunted by wolves.

The best method against Scientology may be to lay open their sources. The roots of Scientology are clearly theosophic/occult, they paint themself as an "religion" but are a criminal totalitarian "business firm" who sells "spirituality". Their only true aim is money&power. If anyone thinks he can channel (brainwash) himself to an "Übermensch" :roll:, he can try so for his own in his own room and for free, searching the internet for the material. No need to pay even a single penny over the online-fee... The real problem with such people starts only, when they begin networking and try to inflitrate the public...

[August]

Yes, a denial to work, legally, and meeting the laws as well as the constitution. I am sure it is exactly the same in you country, when the specified conditions are met. ;)

Look you don't have to justify it to me Sky. If you want to take all your scientologists, line them up against the wall and shoot them that's your business.

[Smaragdadler]

That's just polemic August. 'Germany' may be overreacting when "this" topic comes up, but it's more because "we" have a special national expirience with "such" selfbacked 'brothers&sisters' (or better 'fraters&sorrors').
And yes, I know my conspiracy theory. Most of the big german politicans are freemasons as every where else. But that explains the (partly) overreaction in Germany, because 'they' have the expierience what happens, when some other guys take over the rudder...
So the problem is not that Germany always tends to be totalitarian. No, they just want to be everytime "worldmasters"...this time in total democracy. :D

[Skybird]

were the Italians and French also overreacting when they started criminal lawsuits against Scientology as I reported some postings above?

(...) charges of money laundering, tax fraud, a multitude of violations of economic laws, abuse of mentally deranged people, blackmailing, coercion, medical practicing without legal permission (Aprobation), violation of "Fürsorgepflicht", promoting child labour, torture, violation of laws regulating the working conditions of employees (employees were working until total physical exhaustion and complete breakdown)

I am sure this would be persecuted in America as well. Even if August thinks of such accusations as "denial to work" only. why so shy, august - there is nothing wrong in admitting that you have a police and an FBI, both doing their job if somebody would brake the laws, or violate the american constitution.

[The Avon Lady]

I am sure this would be persecuted in America as well.
Prosecuted. :yep: :roll:

[SUBMAN1]

Well I think ... :roll:
You are free to think, what you will.
Scientology would not let you, if they could.
That's the point.
I didn't say I wanted to join them.

The question I was addressing is whether a person from a politically unpopular (but not illegal) group or religion should be denied the right to work in a private sector job.

It doesn't have to be Scientologists, any unpopular social or ethnic group will do. For example substitute the word "Scientologist" for "Communist" in any of the anti diatrabes in this thread including yours above and they look like Joe MaCarthy speeches.

But like i've said 3-4 times already, It's the Germans country, therefore a German decision.

You know August, they are an illegal group. That is the problem. Here are only about 300 court documents to back that up, but there are thousands more:

http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/docs/index.htm

-S

[Heibges]

Well I think ... :roll:
You are free to think, what you will.
Scientology would not let you, if they could.
That's the point.
I didn't say I wanted to join them.

The question I was addressing is whether a person from a politically unpopular (but not illegal) group or religion should be denied the right to work in a private sector job.

It doesn't have to be Scientologists, any unpopular social or ethnic group will do. For example substitute the word "Scientologist" for "Communist" in any of the anti diatrabes in this thread including yours above and they look like Joe MaCarthy speeches.

But like i've said 3-4 times already, It's the Germans country, therefore a German decision.

You know August, they are an illegal group. That is the problem. Here are only about 300 court documents to back that up, but there are thousands more:

http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/docs/index.htm

-S

I believe they are recongnized by the IRS as a church, though?

[SUBMAN1]

I believe they are recongnized by the IRS as a church, though?

Of course they are. If you created a cult for profit, why would you want to pay the government taxes? Simply labeling yourself as a church gets you out of taxes, and tricks converts into beleiving they are part of something important! :D

[Heibges]

It took them a long time to get IRS status I believe. The bone of contention was that they asked for so much money from followers. Their response was that other religions have been around for a long time, and have had the chance to accumulate wealth.:nope: :nope: :nope:

[August]

I believe they are recongnized by the IRS as a church, though?
Of course they are. If you created a cult for profit, why would you want to pay the government taxes? Simply labeling yourself as a church gets you out of taxes, and tricks converts into beleiving they are part of something important! :D

So if they are, as you claim, "an illegal group" then how come the Government allows them to operate openly and continue their tax shelter status?

I hardly care whether they are or note but maybe they're not as "illegal" as you and others are claiming?

[Heibges]

I believe they are recongnized by the IRS as a church, though?
Of course they are. If you created a cult for profit, why would you want to pay the government taxes? Simply labeling yourself as a church gets you out of taxes, and tricks converts into beleiving they are part of something important! :D

So if they are, as you claim, "an illegal group" then how come the Government allows them to operate openly and continue their tax shelter status?

I hardly care whether they are or note but maybe they're not as "illegal" as you and others are claiming?

But in all fairness, it took the IRS a long time to send Rev Moon to jail for tax fraud, and after that his cult fell apart too.

[SUBMAN1]

Here is one case that kind of got away from them:

http://www.lisamcpherson.org/


ANother oops - probably related to their use of torture and brainwashing of their converts. Apparently this guy didn't take too well to reprogramming and murdered his whole family:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/JeremyPerkins/ (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/%7Edst/JeremyPerkins/)

I guess the question is, how many have to be murdered before this cult is shut down? Here are quite a few more:

http://www.whyaretheydead.net/

This site has some good affidavits on it too - http://www.whyaretheydead.net/krasel/

-S

[geetrue]

A church is no different from any other non-profit ministry to the IRS. It's called a 501c3 application. Muslim's in America raise money with it, a rich man in Wyoming I believe has put all of his money, millions of dollars into into it and claims that his family is the board members. Non profit doesn't mean you can't make a profit, it just means you have to report everything.

You have to dot your eye's and cross your tee's to obtain a non-profit status and to maintain one too. I worked as a volunteer for a non-profit ministry for three years. They would just hand me a couple of hundred dollars every once in a while, because they liked me.

Then I worked for the Republican Party in fund raising once too, and all they paid me was minium wage ... If you can't beat them join them. 501 c 3's that is. :yep:

[Smaragdadler]

Scientology as an "religion" is just a bad copy. The best information online about the original is here:

http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/ (http://user.cyberlink.ch/%7Ekoenig/)

It's a little bit like the Disney Land Castle. One could say, the 'original' is Schloß Neuschwanstein. But even Neuschwanstein is not a 'real' castle, 'just' the forsed dream-come-through of an romantic bavarian 19. century King. But Neuschwanstein is more 'real' than Disney Land, the 'real' reason of the last is 'just' to make money... You get the idea...
http://www.neuschwanstein-online.de/pictures/neuschwanstein600.jpg
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thenewswire/archive/Disney%20Castle.jpg

The original 19.-20. century groups where occultists/theosophians who where in sex-magick and tantra-yoga. Kind of modern gnostics. Or more early upper-class Hippies. But it was something exclusive, not for the masses. Hubbard stole the ideas from them and americanized it. Took away the "dark sides" - polished it for the masses and sold it for lots (and lots, and lots, and lots...of) money. But he implemented also totalitarian psycho-technics to hold the controll of it and to get power over people.

[Heibges]

Scientology as an "religion" is just a bad copy. The best information online about the original is here:

http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/ (http://user.cyberlink.ch/%7Ekoenig/)

It's a little bit like the Disney Land Castle. One could say, the 'original' is Schloß Neuschwanstein. But even Neuschwanstein is not a 'real' castle, 'just' the forsed dream-come-through of an romantic bavarian 19. century King. But Neuschwanstein is more 'real' than Disney Land, the 'real' reason of the last is 'just' to make money... You get the idea...
http://www.neuschwanstein-online.de/pictures/neuschwanstein600.jpg
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thenewswire/archive/Disney%20Castle.jpg

The original 19.-20. century groups where occultists/theosophians who where in sex-magick and tantra-yoga. Kind of modern gnostics. Or more early upper-class Hippies. But it was something exclusive, not for the masses. Hubbard stole the ideas from them and americanized it. Took away the "dark sides" - polished it for the masses and sold it for lots (and lots, and lots, and lots...of) money. But he implemented also totalitarian psycho-technics to hold the controll of it and to get power over people.

Are you referring to Rosecrucianism and folks like Alistair Crowley?

[Smaragdadler]

Rosicrucianism. Aleister.
But yes, you got it.

But Rosicrucianism starts more early ca. 15./16 cent.
OTO is more like an German "Golden Dawn" (19. cent. esoteric)

Rosicrucianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosicrucian

Good old Aleister (Edward Alexander) "My name is Aleister Crowley - I'm a master of magick unholy" Crowley:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley

[Smaragdadler]

Persecution of "religious organizations" is always a two-sided sword, if we would take it 'objectivly'. Because seen on this level - every of the established religions has so much more blood on his hands, than the small cults. But every religion has started as an cult, who was hunted in the beginning. It is the point in history, when the small outsider cult parts with the establishment, that the cult gets established as an religion.
And now claws beginn to crow on the velvet paws. The hunted become the hunters.
But not every tree is the same. Sometimes you can already see on the Samen (seed), if a plant with (more or less) heil-samen (healthy) fruits will grow out of it. But also this judgement is subjectiv - who can decide what is or will become healthy, when the topic is religion?
In Amiland Scientology has become part of the 'established'. In Euroland they are still the 'heretics' on the edge of society...:hmm:

[Heibges]

Rosicrucianism. Aleister.
But yes, you got it.

But Rosicrucianism starts more early ca. 15./16 cent.
OTO is more like an German "Golden Dawn" (19. cent. esoteric)

Rosicrucianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosicrucian

Good old Aleister (Edward Alexander) "My name is Aleister Crowley - I'm a master of magick unholy" Crowley:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley

Did you get to read (or watch the BBC programs) "Holy Blood Holy Grail". It was the book "The Divinci Code" was based on.

It's bogus from a historical/logical perspective, but it does give a good background how prevelent the Occult was in certain circles in the 19th Century.

I believe you are correct in that althought these new estoterics were interested Rosicruciansism, they were as you said not true Roscrusians.

I thought Rosicrusionism originated in like 7th Century AD in Egypt?

Of course, San Francsico can claim Anton LaVey for own our occult connection.

[Smaragdadler]

When it comes to such things you can never make an exact point in time, when it had started. It's more like a stream. If you stand on the shore (point in time) you see new 'water' (ideas) every time you look on it. But you can not see from where the water comes. The beginning is 'clouded' in history. (But water also comes from 'the clouds "im Himmel" in 'heaven/sky' - they are water actually). For the 'water' it's always 'the same'. Only the scenery on the shore is changing constantly... :|\\

If you liked "Holy Blood Holy Grail", you may like this:
http://tracyrtwyman.com/index.html
(Search about 'Dagobert's Revenge'-Magazine articles.)

[Heibges]

When it comes to such things you can never make an exact point in time, when it had started. It's more like a stream. If you stand on the shore (point in time) you see new 'water' (ideas) every time you look on it. But you can not see from where the water comes. The beginning is 'clouded' in history. (But water also comes from 'the clouds "im Himmel" in 'heaven/sky' - they are water actually). For the 'water' it's always 'the same'. Only the scenery on the shore is changing constantly... :|\\

Very true.:yep:

UPDATE:

“Basically, some politicians are using the popularity of Tom Cruise to become popular themselves,” Carl Woebcken, head of the Babelsberg studio that is slated to co-produce the film in Germany, told The Associated Press on Wednesday.

“This is not a Scientology film, it is a Bryan Singer film, and Bryan Singer is Jewish ... and they want to make this film to show that during the Nazi regime there was heroic resistance,” Woebcken said. “The personal beliefs of Tom Cruise have to be separated from his skills as an actor. He is one of the best, if not the best, actors in the world for heroic roles and that is why Bryan Singer approached him.”

United Artists called its film “a historically accurate thriller” and said in a statement that “Mr. Cruise's personal beliefs have absolutely no bearing on the movie's plot, themes or content.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19462964/

[Heibges]

Related story....

German rehabilitates those sentenced for Treason by Nazis.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,491332,00.html

[Skybird]

Not that I hve become less unforgiving about Cruise' scientology background. But according to the author of this essay it seems that the movie currently being shot in Babelsberg, Germany, is set to become a very good and important one, which, according to the author, has the potential to change the way in which other nations look at Germany today, and the Germany of the past, and the project seem to have surprised Hollywood that some of the clichées about "all Germans being Hitler-fans" apparently have been wrong.

So okay, scientology yes or no, I slightly changed my stand and am willing to give Tom Cruise the chance to show that this is not a propaganda stunt of this perfidious organization, but a real good movie in which he apparently seem to play brilliant (says the autor of the essay). So let's see.

Sorry, it's in German:
http://www.faz.net/s/Rub8A25A66CA9514B9892E0074EDE4E5AFA/Doc~EBF92B87385F34F3C8D0AC1EB65890B45~ATpl~Ecommon ~Scontent.html