View Full Version : Convoys are too large
One of the things I'd like to see modded is the size and composition of convoys. They are unrealistically large and almost always have DD's as escorts. Early in the war I'd like to see smaller convoys of up to three merchants escorted by 1-3 warships (PC's, and if possible DC-equipped merchants, should be way more frequent than in the stock version). Combined with a lessening of Japanese merchant traffic this game would be that much closer to perfection. :)
One of the things I'd like to see modded is the size and composition of convoys. They are unrealistically large and almost always have DD's as escorts. Early in the war I'd like to see smaller convoys of up to three merchants escorted by 1-3 warships (PC's, and if possible DC-equipped merchants, should be way more frequent than in the stock version). Combined with a lessening of Japanese merchant traffic this game would be that much closer to perfection. :) DC equipped merchants? would merchants trying to get get to their destination stop halfway to do a few circles trying to depth charge a submarine??
One of the things I'd like to see modded is the size and composition of convoys. They are unrealistically large and almost always have DD's as escorts. Early in the war I'd like to see smaller convoys of up to three merchants escorted by 1-3 warships (PC's, and if possible DC-equipped merchants, should be way more frequent than in the stock version). Combined with a lessening of Japanese merchant traffic this game would be that much closer to perfection. :) DC equipped merchants? would merchants trying to get get to their destination stop halfway to do a few circles trying to depth charge a submarine??
The Japanese used merchant type ships as stop gap escorts at times. Some even had the capability to drop DC's on detected submarines in order to keep them down while the rest of the convoy escaped.
One of the things I'd like to see modded is the size and composition of convoys. They are unrealistically large and almost always have DD's as escorts. Early in the war I'd like to see smaller convoys of up to three merchants escorted by 1-3 warships (PC's, and if possible DC-equipped merchants, should be way more frequent than in the stock version). Combined with a lessening of Japanese merchant traffic this game would be that much closer to perfection. :) DC equipped merchants? would merchants trying to get get to their destination stop halfway to do a few circles trying to depth charge a submarine??
The Japanese used merchant type ships as stop gap escorts at times. Some even had the capability to drop DC's on detected submarines in order to keep them down while the rest of the convoy escaped. So they would be ESCORTS not the cargo carrying merchants themselves carrying depth charges.
So they would be ESCORTS not the cargo carrying merchants themselves carrying depth charges.
Exactly, that's what I meant. :)
After playing for a while a patrolling various regions, you will discover a greater variety of convoy. They are not all large and heavily escorted. I've seen some with no escorts at all.
-Pv-
nattydread
06-23-07, 12:38 PM
Some merchants were like US Q-ahips, in fact the japanese purchased some US Q-ships between wars. Ive read of one report of a merchant avoiding a US sub's torp shot, run down the wakes and as the sub dived it recieved a small, but close depth charging. The skipper deduced that the merchant had dropped the charges since their were no other vessels in the area and there was no aircraft spotted.
The idea of having DCs on a merchant isnt totally unreasonable, perhaps not very effective, but who cares how effective it really is if it can possibly get you home alive...no matter how unlikly.
You figure a small convoy with one merchant with DCs could at the very least hope to send that merchant at flank speed toward the firing point of the submerged sub and drop a small spread of DCs in an attempt to force the sub down and out of firing position. If your really desperate the merchant can just drop DCs blindly at the first sign of sub attack. Considering the sub will likly be within 1000yds of the convoy, the relativly close proximityt of the DC explosions would likly be enough to bluff the sub into thinking it had been found and trick it into disengaging and diving...even if its only temporary.
After playing for a while a patrolling various regions, you will discover a greater variety of convoy. They are not all large and heavily escorted. I've seen some with no escorts at all.
-Pv-
I've been in pretty much every place that the US submarine service conducts war patrols, and most of the time I either find large convoys with a few DD's or a pair of unescorted merchs. Never anything in between. I don't think I've ever encountered a small convoy of say three merchs escorted by one or two PC's for example.
One one patrol I encountered a convory of about 3-4 merchants with about 2 escorts
WernerSobe
06-23-07, 02:02 PM
the reason why merchants do not carry DC is because they are either very slow and can only make a speed of 5 or 6 knots. Or they are fast but not maneuverable enough. Merchants are made cheap with as least effort as possible. They are made to travel huge distances on same course at same speed. They cannot hunt a sub which is a warship after all.
There are 3 types of merchant traffic in SH4 mission files. "Lone" merchants, which are really unescorted groups of 1-4 ships. Convoys, which are always a bunch of ships, and always have 4 useless (skill=1) DDs escorting them. The third type are the troopships, most of which have escorts (can't remember since I changed them a while ago).
FAdmiral
06-23-07, 04:00 PM
Q-Ships also had hidden guns which at first glance the sub cound not see.
Then if the sub tried to make a surface attack thinking that the merchant
had no defence, the blinds would drop and the guns would open up. The
sub would then probably crash dive but could possibly take a hit or 2.
I guess the Q-Ship could carry some DCs and make a run on the sub to force
it deep. After that, it anybodys guess on what to expect next....
JIM
Sailor Steve
06-23-07, 05:39 PM
There used to be a link to the official Japanese Convoy Records; which ones sailed where, how many ships etc. You would be surprised how many of them were escorted by an actual merchant carrying depth charges; also how many merchants were unescortedand carrying their own DCs. If torpedoes were seen the DC-equipped merchant would actually detour over the sighting area and drop a few, then proceed on its way.
Once I have my computer set up I'll be able to post them online - until then I hope someone who reads this will put up a link.
Von Tonner
06-24-07, 04:49 AM
This is something to think about. If the merchants in the game carried DC's this would spoil one of my game tactics. If I cannot get away after an attack I will try and get under one of the merchants in the convoy to get away from the destroyers. Sometimes I intentially try and cripple at least one merchant in an attack should I need him for this purpose. So, in this type of scenario the merchant is not been asked to hunt you, but to get you out from under him so the destroyers can take over. Hell, they wouldn't even need depth charge launchers - just roll them over the side :D
.....and blow themselves up in the proces
Obviously not all merchants should be fitted out as make-shift escorts, only some. Just as they did during the war.
@Sailor Steve,
I would love to see the link. :up:
Von Tonner
06-24-07, 06:36 AM
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/2774/freighterxm7.th.jpg (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=freighterxm7.jpg)
Here is a freighter and on the map update you can clearly see it has dc capabilities or at the very least sonar. It will also explain how destroyers can turn around or come from the other side of a convoy straight to you. And you go "... but how the s**t did he know where I was?". So sometimes it is not just a case at getting past the destroyer defence.
The japanese put hydrophones on many merchants. My guess is that at some point a large % of IJN comandeered merchants got them. Many also got DCs by late in the war, but they were not really "escorts." They'd have a few ready DCs on deck, and if a ship was attacked, they'd dump a few over the side in an attempt to drive the sub down. Not aimed. Ship goes "boom" and merchants drop DCs whereever they happen to be.
Sailor Steve
06-24-07, 02:43 PM
@Sailor Steve,
I would love to see the link. :up:
I've looked everywhere under every word combination I could think of. I have the thing in a folder on my computer; I just have to get a place to set it up.
Sorry.
It's importnat to note that merchant shipping wasn't convoyed much until '44 at all. Before that, convoys were military shipping only. The IJN and IJA comandeered ~ 1/2 of japanese shipping between them. The IJN stuff would have been used to bring supplies to the IJN bases at the front. Truk, Palau, Tawi Tawi, Rabaul, Singapore, etc. Such shipping was convoyed and escorted. IJA shipping and plain old civilian merchant shipping was simply SOL until '44 (and after that sometimes as well).
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/2774/freighterxm7.th.jpg (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=freighterxm7.jpg)
Wow how were you able to draw that first inner circle like that?
Horst Mikaelis
06-24-07, 08:04 PM
I started my first career in December '41. It's now November '42. Most of the ships I've encountered have been either lone or sets (2-3) of merchants without escorts. I even sank a lone troopship in the Marianas.
I think as lot has to do with where you're patrolling. Off the Japanese coast I did see mostly escorted convoys. But in the Carolines and Marianas the escorts are often non-existent.
Horst
That's because there is almost no traffic at all in the Marshalls.
Von Tonner
06-25-07, 07:04 AM
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/2774/freighterxm7.th.jpg (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=freighterxm7.jpg)
Wow how were you able to draw that first inner circle like that?
It was in game, I didn't do anything.
Well, I've encountered manu unsecorted small convoys of up to three ships. I don't have any problem with that. I don't like the fact that escorted convoys are unrealistically large with up to three columns of ships. I'd like to see some smaller escorted convoys too.
The funny thing is that the Marshalls is exactly where you'd actually see escorted convoys early in the war.
IJN traffic to Palau or Truk might be escorted. Traffic FROM Palau or Truk to downstream places on the front (New Guinea and the NEI, Rabaul, Kwajalein, etc) would almost certainly be escorted, and heavily too. The number of cargo ships would likely not be as many as we see in SH4 convoys, however, even if the escorts remained the same, lol.
This is because the IJN had a kind of "zone" defense in terms of ASW. Local port admirals were responsible for their area. In the case of points towards the front from Palau/Truk (early, later the Marianas and Tawi Tawi), the Combined Fleet would actually detach fleet units for escort.
The stock campaign is pretty poor from a historical standpoint, but it's easy to fix technically, just a lot of work.
GerritJ9
06-25-07, 10:41 AM
Even troop convoys were sometimes given ridiculously little protection- the convoy transporting the invasion force for the landing on East Java, for instance, consisting of some 40 transports, had only two destroyers as direct protection. Unfortunately, NO Dutch or US subs managed to get within striking distance- if they had, they would have had a field day.
Gerrit, do you have an OOB for that force? I'm working on a new mission file to replace the entire Japanese southern advance (Malaya, NEI, Philipines, etc).
GerritJ9
06-25-07, 03:09 PM
I'll have to check my "archives" for the Java Sea battle for the Japanese destroyers, but the IJN side was well represented with heavy cruisers "Nachi" and "Haguro" and light cruisers "Jintsu" and "Naka". From memory the IJN had 14 destroyers, two of them were most definitely "Asagumo" and "Minegumo".
The ABDA force consisted of heavy cruisers USS "Houston" and HMS "Exeter", but the "Houston's" X turret was out of action, reducing her main battery by one third.
Light cruisers were Hr.Ms. "De Ruyter", Hr.Ms. "Java" and HMAS "Perth". Destroyers were HMS "Electra", HMS "Encounter", HMS "Jupiter", Hr.Ms "Kortenaer", Hr,Ms. "Witte de With", USS "Alden", USS "John D. Edwards", USS "John D. Ford" and USS "Paul Jones".
FAdmiral
06-25-07, 03:21 PM
Tater, I have paperback book titled "A Battle History of the Imperial Japanese
Navy"(1941-1945) by Paul S. Dull. It has alot of ship makeup in different
battles and conquests. The first one I see is one called Table of Organization
for the Invasion & Conquest of the Malay Peninsula. It gives the name of:
"Second Fleet, Southern Force, Malay Force"
Battleships: Haruna, Kongo
Hvy. Cruisers: Atago,Takako,Chokai,Mogami,Mikuma,Kumano,Suzuya
Light Cruisers: Sendai
*Destroyers:Fubuki,Hatsuyski,Shirayuki,Murakumo,Sh inonome,Shirakumo,Isonami,Uranami,
Shikinami,Ayanami,Amagiri,Asagiri,Yugiri,Sagiri
"Southern Expeditionary Fleet" (escort for Army Troopships)
Light Cruiser: Kashii
Destroyers: *from second fleet above when the need to transfer was great
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are many more but the context is very large. I am gonna try to scan
the pages needed and create files. It will be much less time consuming....
JIM
GerritJ9
06-25-07, 03:28 PM
Did a quick check and the IJN destroyers at the Java Sea battle were "Murasame", "Harusame", "Yudachi", "Samidare", "Asagumo", "Minegumo", "Hatsukaze", "Yukikaze", "Amatsukaze", "Tokitsukaze", "Ushio", "Sazanami", "Yamakaze" and "Kawakaze". The first six, together with the cruiser "Naka" (rear admiral Nishimura Shoji's flagship), formed the convoy's close escort.
Cool, I have Dull (poor name choice, huh?). I was thinking also of the composition of the transports in terms of rough sizes.
tater
GerritJ9
06-25-07, 03:43 PM
The warships present at major operations can usually be found in reference books etc, but the composition of the transport convoys is rarely mentioned, apart from numbers involved. Usually the only transports mentioned are those that were actually sunk or damaged, and with a name one can look up said vessel's size. I don't think that any book has been published listing the names and tonnage of all transports involved in convoys, so be prepared to visit archives if you really want such info. And with the Japanese being able to destroy much material at the end of WW2, such info will be very hard to come by.
Quite true. The actual names aren't really critical, I have information about BaseFor1 going to place X, but I have no idea what ships are involved in it. My principal concern is getting the right balance of merchant targets in there.
Sailor Steve
06-25-07, 04:03 PM
The warships present at major operations can usually be found in reference books etc, but the composition of the transport convoys is rarely mentioned, apart from numbers involved. Usually the only transports mentioned are those that were actually sunk or damaged, and with a name one can look up said vessel's size. I don't think that any book has been published listing the names and tonnage of all transports involved in convoys, so be prepared to visit archives if you really want such info. And with the Japanese being able to destroy much material at the end of WW2, such info will be very hard to come by.
DANG! I've got to find a link to that convoy document set! It has all that stuff.:damn:
Sorry to be a tease, but I know the link has been posted before. I'm still looking.
EDIT: Got it! Unfortunately the original poster was releasing it by request only, so there's no link. If he's now unavailable, or you can't find another link, I'll put it up as soon as I can. The bad news is that, as I said, it may be awhile before I can do that.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=109621
First post in the research thread in the mod forum:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=109621
Donner says to PM him for the files in there.
The problem is that the japanese didn't start organized convoys until 1944. There were a few in 1943, but not as organized as '44.
tater
Sailor Steve
06-25-07, 04:23 PM
Yeah, but these don't just list organized convoys, they list every sailing, from December 1941 on. Well, I can't vouch for every single sailing, but it sure looks like it. They even list the owners of each ship sunk.
Sorry to be a tease, but I know the link has been posted before. I'm still looking.
EDIT: Got it! Unfortunately the original poster was releasing it by request only, so there's no link. If he's now unavailable, or you can't find another link, I'll put it up as soon as I can. The bad news is that, as I said, it may be awhile before I can do that.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=109621
Got it! This is an excellent resource. After some cursory browsing of the listings it is obvious that the SH4 convoys needs less DD's and more gunboats/minesweepers/armed merchants as escorts if the aim is to make the convoy compositions more realistic. I have yet to cross-check the sinkings listed in the Japanese Convoy History file with Aldens data in US Submarine Attacks In WWII, but the Convoy History listings seems accurate and comprehensive.
Can you PM me so I can get the file?
BTW, the quick and dirty mod I did to the existing layers radically reduces the escorts (and number of ships early on, too), and replaces many with subchasers and minesweepers changed (in the roster) to finction as "corvettes" so they will escort.
tater
Can you PM me so I can get the file?
BTW, the quick and dirty mod I did to the existing layers radically reduces the escorts (and number of ships early on, too), and replaces many with subchasers and minesweepers changed (in the roster) to finction as "corvettes" so they will escort.
tater
I've been watching your mod very cloesly and I'll install it before my next SH4 session. Looks like just the thing for me. :)
Damn. That is amazing. It'll take ages to study. Note that at the begining the "convoys" are direct military convoys. Invasion forces, and supplies/meteriel for said invasions.
The IJN and IJA comandeered rather a lot of japanese merchant shipping (they had arranged to subsidize production of types that met certain standards for speed, etc, in the years leadign to the war in anticipation of this). Those direct military "convoys" would indeed be escorted. That of course leaves nearly half the traffic SOL. On top of that, aside from actual invasions, the IJA was unlikely to get much of anything from the IJN, their rivalry was pretty pathological.
tater
Sailor Steve
06-26-07, 06:48 PM
I'm glad you guys finally got copies, and I'm glad your first impressions were the same as mine. A long time ago I started to catalogue each sailing in brief, on one part to get averages for the devs or modders (this was a while ago) and on the other to put together a list of names. I was trying to put together a better and more complete ship list for SH3 Commander, and thought I might be able to do the same for SH4, as well as help make more realistic convoys. Of course my little experiment in "communal living" got me sidetracked, but I'm still hoping someday to contribute that to the gaming experience.
Meanwhile, have fun with it and keep me posted. Oh, and keep an eye out for the one merchie that got sunk by a single DUD torpedo!:sunny:
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