Depth Charge straight from H*LL

[Andyman23]

I just experienced the depth charge straight from the depths of hell. I was about to attack a small troop carrier task force with my newly installed Kakemann's harder escorts mod (which is really awesome btw) and also the new campaign layers mod (also really awesome).

anyway, i rushed the attack and to get into position i had to do flank speed at PD (note: i did play GWX and was a seasoned vet at attacking and evading, but i believe with the stock escorts in SH4, i forgot how to attack the correct way). I then put up my Observation periscope to ID some targets. Just as I set the TDC to track a big fat troop carrier I glance over to see 2 escorts rushing straight at me.

i quickly order flank speed at a new depth of 250 ft to hopefully get down quickly. When i hit about 240 ft, i hear the all to familiar sound of destroyer propellors swooshing through the water right over me. A few seconds later, explosions resinate behind me and i figure hits missing me. But just then, BOOOOM...a depth charge explodes directly on my port side. My boat churns to starboard almost going horizontal for a split second, the lights go out, glass flies everywhere...the chaos was both frightening and yet really cool.

it turns out that half my men were wounded from that single DC and half my bulkhead was shattered, my compressor, radar, hydrophones, and damn near everything else was gone. It also caused extremely heavy flooding and my damage control team couldnt fix anything in time. I ordered numerious emergency surfaces to no avail. USS Billfish quickly drifted to the murky depths and was crushed.

all in all, i think this example shows the best of all teh hard working modders and SH4 in general. So again, thank you devs for such a great game and thank you modders for providing enhancements to make an already great game more fun and challenging.

[SteamWake]

The DC's are a tad overpowered.

You might want to look into the 'die slowly' mod which decreases their 'leathal' radius.

Also I belive that if you go just below the thermal layer and not deeper and order turns for around 2 or 3 knots you might do a little better at evading.

Thrashing around at flank you might as well be banging pots and pans together.

[rdhiggins]

I agree Cheers :up: to the hard working modders that have added more depth and excitement to the existing SH4 simulation.

Keep up the good work.... :|\\

[tater]

While I think the stock AI need some serious improvement, some of the mods that make AI much better will likely make my campaign very difficult since I upped the AI skill levels under the assumption of stock AI.

I currently tend to play with the DC reduced radius from Die Slowly, and a homebrew mod of the AI sensors. I think I need to back the later down a notch.

IMO, the idea final product would be fairly agressive prosecutions that don't kill you often, but ruin chances for immediate second attacks.

tater

[Steel_Tomb]

Lol yeah the stock DC's feel like they've got small nuclear warheads on them with the damage radius.

[walsh2509]

If your to play this as true to life (sim) then the japanese never set there DC over 100ft until a US congressman let it slip during an interview about mid 43. Up until then the japanese thought the US subs were like there own and could only dive to 100ft or there abouts.

It wasn't until that slip by the congressman telling the press that the japanese dcs were having no real effect on US subs.


After mid 43 the Japanese started setting there DCs to over 250ft.

So if your to play as in the war, then up until this point Japanese DCs should not be set greater than 100ft.



Got the piece ....

Pacific Theatre

In the Pacific, Japanese depth charge attacks initially proved fairly unsuccessful against U.S. and Russian subs. Unless caught in shallow water, a U.S. submarine commander could normally dive to a deeper depth in order to escape destruction.
The deficiencies of Japanese depth-charge tactics were revealed in a press conference held by U.S. Congressman Andrew J. May (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_J._May), a member of the House Military Affairs Committee who had visited the Pacific theater and received many intelligence and operational briefings. At the press conference, May revealed that American submarines had a high survivability rate because Japanese depth charges were fused to explode at too shallow a depth.
Various press associations sent this leaked news story over their wires, compounding the danger, and many newspapers (including one in Honolulu, Hawaii), thoughtlessly published it. Soon, Japanese forces were resetting their depth charges to explode at a more effective average depth of 250 feet. Vice Admiral Charles A. Lockwood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_A._Lockwood), commander of the U.S. submarine fleet in the Pacific, later estimated that May's revelation cost the United States Navy as many as ten submarines and 800 crewmen lost in action.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_charge#_note-0)

[walsh2509]

Another piece on it ... the people how complain that the DDs in the game are poor .. for the most part they were, well early on in the war anyway.


In contrast, Allied submarines were largely committed against Japanese merchant shipping. As a consequence, Japanese anti-submarine forces were forced to spread their efforts to defend the entirety of their merchant shipping lanes, not only to resupply their forces, but also to continue the necessary importation of war material to the Japanese home islands.
At first, Japanese anti-submarine defenses proved less than effective against U.S. submarines. Japanese sub detection gear was not as advanced as that of some other nations. The primary Japanese anti-submarine weapon for most of WWII was the depth charge, and Japanese depth charge attacks by its surface forces initially proved fairly unsuccessful against U.S. fleet submarines. Unless caught in shallow water, a U.S. submarine commander could normally dive to a deeper depth in order to escape destruction, sometimes using temperature gradient barriers to escape pursuit. Additionally, during the first part of the war, the Japanese tended to set their depth charges too shallow, unaware that U.S. submarines possessed the ability to dive beyond 150 feet.
Unfortunately, the deficiencies of Japanese depth-charge tactics were revealed in a June 1943 press conference held by U.S. Congressman Andrew J. May (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_J._May), a member of the House Military Affairs Committee who had visited the Pacific theater and received many confidential intelligence and operational briefings. At the press conference, May revealed that American submarines had a high survivability because Japanese depth charges were fused to explode at too shallow a depth, typically 100 feet (because Japanese forces believed U.S. subs did not normally exceed this depth). Various press associations sent this story over their wires, and many newspapers, including one in Honolulu, thoughtlessly published it. Soon enemy depth charges were rearmed to explode at a more effective depth of 250 feet. Vice Admiral Charles A. Lockwood, commander of the U.S. submarine fleet in the Pacific, later estimated that May's revelation cost the navy as many as ten submarines and 800 crewmen.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-submarine_weapon#_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-submarine_weapon#_note-1)
In addition to resetting their depth charges to deeper depths, Japanese anti-submarine forces also began employing autogyro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogyro) aircraft and Magnetic Anomaly Detection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_Anomaly_Detector) (MAD) equipment to sink U.S. subs, particularly those plying major shipping channels or operating near the home islands. Despite this onslaught, U.S. sub sinkings of Japanese shipping continued to increase at a furious rate as more U.S. subs deployed each month to the Pacific. By the end of the war, U.S. submarines had destroyed more Japanese shipping than all other weapons combined, including aircraft.

[Andyman23]

cool, well i was in Novemeber 1943 so i bet they had the right settings on them by then

[SteamWake]

cool, well i was in Novemeber 1943 so i bet they had the right settings on them by then

Heh well that one did.

Theres always the golden BB.

[CaptainHaplo]

The devs were forced into some unfortunate mechanical settings that are ahistorical. For instance - the early war DC had a lethal radius of about 2-3 meters at depth - but the devs have been forced to make the radius zone minimum 8 meters - with a max of somewhere near 40 - meaning the average DC in game will have a lethal radius of median 24 meters (yes - 72+ feet!!)! This was necessary because between the various ranges of AI ability, incorrect DC sink rates, etc - there needed to be some level of effectiveness to AI attacks. Now I do not fault the devs - when your on a timeline things happen. Luckily - Modders have adapted the DC - as well as been able to tweak the AI to a point. There is talk that 1.3 will also work on escort AI - and if so that will also help tremendously. We will see - but in the meantime - the reduced DC mod or Die Slowly mod (among others) are out there to get things a little closer to history.

[-Pv-]

I have survived enough DC attacks in the stock game I'm not overly sensitive to the DC lethiality. I plays as if everyting in the game is out to sink me and I work to prevent detection.
-Pv-

[Redwine]

I have survived enough DC attacks in the stock game I'm not overly sensitive to the DC lethiality. I plays as if everyting in the game is out to sink me and I work to prevent detection.
-Pv-
That is the correct way but, the main problem is... many of DDs into the campaign are so dummy, at point in havy seas, they are literally uncapable to detect you at all... but some times appears some DDs with supercapabilities.

When you encounter one of those super DDs into stock settings, you are done for sure, they can catch you even at silent running and under the thermal layer... then the game loss interest.

I think so it is related to crew skill rating into the campaign layers.

If we increase the dummy DDs sensors sensivity, we can have better DDs, but those super DDs in campaign become so strong.

[-Pv-]

I've also been working to optimize the crew as well as play smart. We'll see what happens. So far I'm having fun and most events are reasonable for a game with atificial intelligence. When the next version fixes the stopped convoy when leader is hit, convoy attacks will become more challenging and interesting. Well also see if there are still "Super DDs" and DCs that act the same as now during those convoy attacks. Right now, I jsut sit back and enjoy what I can for what it's worth and I'll wait for the 1.3 patch before I get all wound up about any critical feature.
-Pv-

[SteamWake]

I've also been working to optimize the crew as well as play smart. We'll see what happens. So far I'm having fun and most events are reasonable for a game with atificial intelligence. When the next version fixes the stopped convoy when leader is hit, convoy attacks will become more challenging and interesting. Well also see if there are still "Super DDs" and DCs that act the same as now during those convoy attacks. Right now, I jsut sit back and enjoy what I can for what it's worth and I'll wait for the 1.3 patch before I get all wound up about any critical feature.
-Pv-

What a breath of fresh air... :|\\

[TheSatyr]

Hmmmm. I wonder if they modeled the 600lb dcs the Japanese used later in the war.

[switch.dota]

Hmmmm. I wonder if they modeled the 600lb dcs the Japanese used later in the war.
I think they did... as the vanilla DC on jap DDs. Early or late in the war - no difference :)

[BH]

Does anyone know if the updated slowly version of die slowly reduce the kill radius the DC attacks and/or the AI sensors.

I swear if the IJN was this good there would be alot more casulites of American subs.

[Redwine]

Does anyone know if the updated slowly version of die slowly reduce the kill radius the DC attacks and/or the AI sensors.

I swear if the IJN was this good there would be alot more casulites of American subs.
Die Slowly reduces the Depth Charges lethal radius, any way they still being much more biger than in real life, but not too much as into stock values.

You can use them as stand alon modification if you want, without use the rest of the mod....

The mod didnt touched the AI Sensors, i was needed and was a pendant asignature... but with the v1.3 it is nod needed, the Dev Team made an excellent job rising up the DDs capabilities.

[Tom C]

About the Congressman May story--

It is most definitely true that he spilled the beans and deserved the condemnation. But I read elsewhere that there is no evidence that the Japanese actually heard of it or learned anything from it. Sorry I can't remember the source (maybe Prados' "Combined Fleet Decoded"?). Don't forget, the Japanese had POWs handy for interrogation about those sorts of questions.

I remember from somewhere else (again, can't remember the source, maybe Peattie's "Kaigun"?) that the Japanese DC of 1941 had settings for 30, 60, and 90 meters (roughly 100, 200, 300 feet). Later in the war they added settings for 120 and 150 meters. Their real problem was the lack of depth-determining sonar, so they had to guess at what setting to use. And ISTR they had the charges pre-set, I don't know how long it would have taken to reset them but perhaps that also contributed to their being often too shallow.

[Sailor Steve]

Tom C, here's a good source for naval weapons of all kinds:
http://www.navweaps.com/

And the Japanese depth charge page:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMJAP_ASW.htm

The interesting thing to me is that the settings were all specific: they couldn't set them for anything in between. That in itself is sure to guarantee a lot of misses.

Oh, and WELCOME ABOARD!

[Tom C]

Sailor Steve, thanks for the links!

[SteamWake]

The interesting thing to me is that the settings were all specific: they couldn't set them for anything in between. That in itself is sure to guarantee a lot of misses.

I guess there reasoning was the old saying " Close enough for horseshoes and handgernades ".

The depth charge was as much a psychological weapon as a weapon of destruction. Sure to lower a crews moral.

Either that or they dident have the technology. :p

[cmdrk]

i quickly order flank speed at a new depth of 250 ft to hopefully get down quickly. When i hit about 240 ft, i hear the all to familiar sound of destroyer propellors swooshing through the water right over me. A few seconds later, explosions resinate behind me and i figure hits missing me. But just then, BOOOOM...a depth charge explodes directly on my port side. My boat churns to starboard almost going horizontal for a split second, the lights go out, glass flies everywhere...the chaos was both frightening and yet really cool.

Did you see a green flash?
In Galatin's book "Take Her Deep", he wrote that he and others in the control room saw a flash of light (green I think) when hit dead on by DC's. They dished in the hull of his Gato boat Halibut and pushed the sub down from 350 ft to almost 450 ft. A nearby sub observed heavy air cover over the convoy Halibut was attacking. The nearby sub heard and counted 8 DC's exploding almost at the same time. Later, Galatin compared notes and learned more about Japanese ASW and came to the conclusion the Halibut was a near victim of a MAD gear attack. The sub being pushed down nearly 100 ft may have pushed them beyond MAD gear detection.
The Halibut's damage was ruled too costly to repair.