Was the XXI pointless???

[IrischKapitan]

By 1943 all hope of restoring power of the atlantic back to the Germans lay in the devolpment of the new electroboots. However by the wars end only two of the new XXI reached active service. I am suprised that the Kreigsmarine did not consider a radical modrinisation of the existing U-boats........

After the war the Royal Navy and the US Navy completly modrenised their boats adding schnorkels, sonar, a new sail and most importantly streamlining the boat. The Guppy series and the T class are good examples of this. The British T class achieved an Underwater speed of 15kn. This was a remarkable acheivement concdiering the design was already ten years old before the conversion began. The T class remained in service from 1938 to 1956

A much faster boat could be created, with little expence and little tecnical risk.

The manufacture of one XXI boat took over 300,000 man hours, although it could take many more because of bombing raids and intruptions (eg. badly made parts)

The VII boat was a sound design, and modifications could have being made on exsisting boats, therefore reducing the amount of time for new boats to be put in active service.

Cosidering all of these I am confused why the Kreigsmarine opted for more costly, complicated and unreliable XXI (although it was an excellent design in theory). I think if the Kreigsmarine radically modrenised their U-Boat fleet in '43, the outcome in the Atlantic may have being different....

[Wilko]

I have often wondered what would have happened if Germany had had some sane top level leaders that were capable of making sound rational tactical descions, but 20/20 hindsight is a sweet thing isn't it.

[Penelope_Grey]

Electroboots? Are they made by Doc Martin's?:rotfl:

[CCIP]

Real historians don't like "what ifs" :p

I think it wasn't all that simple. Firstly, how exactly do you propose to upgrade Type VII's? Secondly, well, is the T class really the same thing? Some WWI boats could do 12kt underwater, but for how long? The only comparable upgrades that brought boats up to something like a XXI would be the postwar Guppy refits - and those would be rather extensive and quite hard to do in wartime.

The Type VIIs were already stuffed. It would be very hard to upgrade them with anything - if you wanted to improve their performance, they'd need a lot more battery power. How do you get the battery power there? The fact is that the XXI did that by using the same exact batteries that the VIIs and IXs had, but it had a lot more of them. The XXI used a lot of the same technology as the other boats, just differently. Meanwhile the VIIs and IXs were already hopelessly obsolete. I think the Germans did an admirable job upgrading them, but they simply came from too old a design philosophy and had no extra room for upgrades. This for example as distinct from the US fleet boats which being a more sophisticated, new-school design with lots of spare room, simply had more capacity to be upgraded and were - and even then after the war and with rather extensive effort being expended on doing so.

Likewise, building the XXIs in sections as they were was a lot more efficient than the VIIs. For all we know, it was perhaps more efficient than upgrading the older fleet.

As for 'what if in 1943...' - well, that was a what-if indeed. The Battle of the Atlantic was very much hanging in balance in early 1943. With the situation having reached a fever pitch for both sides, there is no way the tactics, technology or production priority would be switched then and there. When it was, it was already too late and the U-boats lost the battle.

The XXI was potentially a very dangerous design, but it showed exactly the problems with transitioning to new technology. Of course it was useless, but it wasn't useless by design. If anything was useless by design, it was Adolf's war plans - no XXI would've saved him :hmm:

[Penelope_Grey]

Though in seriousness, I wouldn't say they were pointless at all, they may have been crap in terms of reliability and use. But, they paved the way for what we have now, they were the first incarnation IMO and my brothers Opinion of the true submarine. Up till the launch of the XXI all the submarines of the world were surface vessels which had the ability to go underwater, they were not intended for extended underwater use, the XXI was.

[KeptinCranky]

Yep :D
You can run 15 knots on the surface of water with them :p

[Kaleun Klink]

It seems the Wehrmacht as a whole, along with Hitler and his inner circle, emphasized the development and production of new "wonder weapons" at the expense of upgrading proven weapon systems. Witness not only the Type XXI but also the Me-262, the Ar-234, the Pzkw VIII Maus, the V-1 and V-2, etc. Some of these clearly were more successful than others, but all drained resources from the production and improvement of older -- but still effective --weapons systems.

Maybe this addiction to new weapons systems was a sign of the Nazis' desperation as the war turned against them, maybe it was a manifestation of Hitler's own psychological makeup... It's worth nothing, though, that the Wehrmacht had wagered on new technologies and tactics before the war began -- e.g., the dive bomber and Blitzkrieg -- and that bet had paid off (at least initially). Perhaps in opting for innovative new weapons systems, rather than upgrading older systems, the Wehrmacht was just staying true to form.

Discuss amongst yourselves... :hmm:

[CCIP]

they may have been crap in terms of reliability and use
Aren't virtually all new designs? :p

There are only a few fortunate cases of new technology being used most efficiently and not having a huge amount of teething troubles (just think of the US sub fleet in WWII, the pre-war doctrine and its results at the start of the war, and the torpedoes and other stuff - oooh boy! - but in the end those boats were a grand success). The XXI certainly didn't have the time for proper troubleshooting, but I'm sure if it did it would be quite a potent boat. Probably not the almighty uber-boat that some invision, but way ahead of anything of its time.

[Kaleun Klink]

Hmmm... or perhaps CCIP's more technically-minded explanation is more to the point. Ah, I'm always one to go wool-gathering... :|\\




Edit: Oh happy day, from Bilge Rat to Nub! And a much better-looking avatar!

[Redshirt]

You also have to take in consideration do you completely stop production of an existing type to make the modifications need to your current production lines? and then upgrade your whole fleet which could put them all out of action for several months at least :down: in war time this often inst a very practical solution.

More of the stock standard and less of the wizzy toys is often whats needed in war time... Germany kinda found that one out the hard way. And if I recall correctly Germany war industry wasn't even working around the clock 24 hours a day till early 43 when they had been at war since 1939!

The Uboats failure imho was simply not enough boats at sea in 1939 to achieve the desired effect.

[kiwi_2005]

For the Germans it was pointless cause the war ended! If the XXI was cruising the atlantic around 1941 onwards i think the battle would of been decided...:hmm:

[TarJak]

Definately not pointless in terms of the development of the first true submarine. Before the XXI U-boats, S-Boats et al were simply submersibles rather than true submarines desinged from the start to operate almost entirely underwater.

In terms of contriuting to the German war effort, well in that they made no significant contribution to that effort so in those terms you could conclude that they were pointless.

If Doenitz could have had the number of boats he wanted to start the war with, at the start of the war, then I think the war would have had a very different ending.

Its a moot point now though. The US, UK and the then USSR benefitted most from the technical advances contributed by the XXI.

[Puster Bill]

Electroboots? Are they made by Doc Martin's?:rotfl:

I don't know, but I do know that they had electroboots, and mohair suits.

/Read it in a magazine.

[IrischKapitan]

Likewise, building the XXIs in sections as they were was a lot more efficient than the VIIs. For all we know, it was perhaps more efficient than upgrading the older fleet.




Yes the XXI was built in sections, but most of them by slave labour. Therefore they were badly manufactured, ill-fitting and when they got to port they were often missing equipment, which added to the lenght of time for them to become operational.

But If they had being avaible in '41 and in suffficent numbers, britian would not have lasted........ Dont get me wrong the tecnology was there, you only have to look at the jappeneese No. 71 sub (nearly always overlooked by historians).



But i think the blame lay with Hitler, he was always sceptical of his U-boat arm
which left donitz to make the best of a bad situation..................

[KeptinCranky]

as for sticking to the oldies but goodies there's a few examples I could mention like the B52 (which has now been in active service for more than half the time we have powered flight as a species :o),or USS Missouri and USS New Jersey and let's not forget they were still using t-34's in the Balkans in the early 1990s

so yes, upgrading the type VII and IX would probably have been better (same goes for pzkfw. IV and VI) but I wouldn't want to have been the officer commanding the British Taskforce when 1 of those type XXIs surfaced right in the middle of them to surrender at the end of the war and they didn't know it was there :oops:, that definitely puts a dent in your promotion prospects.

[Puster Bill]

For the Germans it was pointless cause the war ended! If the XXI was cruising the atlantic around 1941 onwards i think the battle would of been decided...:hmm:

This isn't as out in left field as it might seem at first. The British R-Class had performance between a Type XXIII and XXI back at the end of WWI. The technology to do it was there, but the doctrine wasn't.

First, on the British side, the R boats were envisioned as anti-submarine submarines. The problem was that sensors, like passive sonar and ASDIC, hadn't caught up. The British never made the doctrinal leap to understand the advantages of using them in a conventional anti-ship role.

Likewise, the doctrine on the German side was stuck in WWI, despite the idea of the Wolfpack. Submarines were primarily surface ships that could submerge if they *HAD* to. They didn't need decent underwater speed or endurance, because they hadn't needed it in WWI.

I actually think that Germany would have been better served if they had looked at the R Class that the British had, and developed the doctrine around high speed submerged boats. They had the advantage of working from a clean slate, it would have been relatively painless for them to do so when starting up the Ubootwaffe in the 1930's. Trying to do it in 1943-44 after several years of war, while you are geared up to make designs that are basically just improved UBIII boats from WWI is much harder.

[CapZap1970]

Adolf Hitler didn't pay much attention to the Kriegsmarine, because he had as his best advisor Fieldmarschall Hermann Goering (they were very close friends back from 1928), who has openly against giving any budget increase to the Kriegsmarine or the Wehrmacht. Just an example to illustrate Goering's way of thinking:
When the british troops were cornered at Dunkirk and the Panzers and Infantry Division were at less than 5 hours, Goering told Hitler to stop them, because his Luftwaffe was more than enough to take care of the british troops. Of course, his Luftwaffe did little or nothing at all and you know the results. This gave the british High Command and Sir Winston Churchill more than enough time to plan and execute the evacuation. Almost the same happened when Goering reviewed the research budget for the u-boats and many other branches of service in the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe as well. And he stood against it from the beginning. Goering was very selfish and could never have the vision of seeing the 3 forces (Navy, Army and Airforce) working together to achieve a common benefit.
There is the answer to why did the germans neglect the production of more sophisticated u-boats, until it was too late to make a difference.;)
CapZap

[Dantenoc]

I'll get clobbered for saying this on this forum, but the whole U-boat war effort was pointless, nevermind what type of boat. There is no way that Britain could have been starved to death... ever. It just isn't possible.

Besides, Hitler was never betting on starving England out of existence, but rather the original plan was to make it suficiently uncomfortable for the British so that they would just sign a peace treaty where they would basicaly leave Hitler be and have his way on continental Europe. Hitler was betting that the British had only been allies of the French for a short while but enemies for ever (hey, how about that hundred years war?). Of course the whole deal is more complicated than that, but that was the general idea.

He just miscalculated the Churchill factor. I beleive Chamberlain would have signed for peace.

[Crimguy]

You won't get clobbered by me. I agree with you 100%. They also didn't account for the US to be able to ramp up production as fast as they did, or for British ASW technology/skills to rise as quickly as it did. Donitz was in denial about aircraft equipped with radar until late 42-43, despite the Hudson's that appeared out of nowhere, at night, over the Bay of Biscay as early as April, 42.

Germany just didn't have the production capability to make a dent. I do think having reliable type XXI's as early as 1940 would have had an effect on Allied shipping though. But they didn't have many boats of the Type II/VII/IX class in 1939-40 as it was, so it's a pretty big stretch, almost to the point of asking the Wehrmacht to field Me-262's or, more accurately in my opinion, F-86 sabres during WWII. Gets to the point of science fiction.

I'll get clobbered for saying this on this forum, but the whole U-boat war effort was pointless, nevermind what type of boat. There is no way that Britain could have been starved to death... ever. It just isn't possible.

Besides, Hitler was never betting on starving England out of existence, but rather the original plan was to make it suficiently uncomfortable for the British so that they would just sign a peace treaty where they would basicaly leave Hitler be and have his way on continental Europe. Hitler was betting that the British had only been allies of the French for a short while but enemies for ever (hey, how about that hundred years war?). Of course the whole deal is more complicated than that, but that was the general idea.

He just miscalculated the Churchill factor. I beleive Chamberlain would have signed for peace.

[HunterICX]

XXI pointless for WW2?
yes as they where too late

XXI pointless after war?
no it has been a good jump for the Submarine development:up:

[STEED]

The XXI always falls in the what if situation and we will never know, Hitler canceled all long term research in 1940 believing he had won and no one could stop him.

But, Hitler had lost the Blitzkrieg war with Russia and the war would drag on. Research was stepped up but by then it was too late, the Allies had won the scientific war and it was only a matter of time before Germany faced total defeat.

[IrischKapitan]

The British R-Class had performance between a Type XXIII and XXI back at the end of WWI. The technology to do it was there, but the doctrine wasn't.

First, on the British side, the R boats were envisioned as anti-submarine submarines. The problem was that sensors, like passive sonar and ASDIC, hadn't caught up. The British never made the doctrinal leap to understand the advantages of using them in a conventional anti-ship role.




Yes the R class was a superb design, way ahead of its time, but in the terms of detection tecnolgy they were running before they could walk :doh:


Also you could consider the O-21 class, a boat from the netherlands, which had a schnorkel in 1936! (although it was only for fresh air, not for engine intake).
It was probably the best design of a sub, until maybe late VII marks.


but the whole U-boat war effort was pointless, nevermind what type of boat. There is no way that Britain could have been starved to death... ever. It just isn't possible.

They may have being starved so much as they had no oil, no food, no ammumition and they may have being forced to surrender. You know what churchill said ''the only thing that scared me was the U-Boat peril''

[johnno74]

I have read somewhere (forget where) that the XXI was originally meant to be powered by a closed-cycle engine that ran on hydrogen peroxide - it didn't need air to run. I think they never would have got that developed in time even if the program was given total priority, the challenges are too great - u-boats powered by hydrogen peroxide are just starting to become a reality now...

I also read that the german high command (maybe Hitler or Donitz, not sure) cancelled development of the XXI in about 1940, because they believed they were not needed, they could win the battle of the atlantic without them.
Originally they were meant to come into service about 1941.

Now if Nazi germany had had a buttload of XXIs in '41 I don't know if that would have changed the course of the war, but it certainly would have made he atlantic a MUCH more dangerous place and would have at a minimum prolonged the war a few more years.

[MENTAT]

Yes the XXI was built in sections, but most of them by slave labour. Therefore they were badly manufactured, ill-fitting and when they got to port they were often missing equipment, which added to the lenght of time for them to become operational.
So did VII's nad IX's. and Panthers and Tigers. You didnt think all war machines were produced solely by germans do you? and all subs were produced in sections.

Oh by the way, failure in production often resulted death penalty to slave workers and dont you underestimate the work of a labor threatened by his life.

For the topic,

Yes XXI was a revolution, and it was a way too late revolution. Just like Me262, V2 and HX homing bombs. Could have they changed the course of the war? Definitely.

For upgrading existing boats, it was a no go. Why? Because XXI was a completely new design, truly a new concept. The boat was designed and given better stats for "underwater" performance raher than previous designs which were usually surfaced and temporarily submerged.. They were actually submersible ships rather than submarines.

So Aerodynamix (or should i say Aquadynamics) of XXI were all designed for submerged conditions. We are talking about the hull. And a hull of a sub is 60% of its structure. How were you going to upgrade a VII's 60%? is it feasible? No.

Besides you have to recall your existing force in atlantic to do that. And If you do, allied forces will begin to transfer vast amounts of airforces to assist land forces which were busy to search the entire atlantic for U-boats. When Hitler saw that technologically overwhelmed U-boats were hunted all over seas, he didnt put an end to atlantic operations, on the contrary he ordered Doenitz to keep sending them to keep allied airforces busy. You would have given freedom for all naval vessels as well and that would give allies to perform an amphibious operation wherever, whenever they want.

For bleeding Britain dry by U-boats, that was a true strategy, of course not to make them starve to death but for huge amounts of ammunition, weaponry and manpower supply from U.S. All of us know that how hard Britian was keeping up with the Battle of Britain, and using Britain as a steppingstone, U.S. forces have managed to deploy enough forces (over millions of people) to perform D-DAY eventually made Germany to surrender.

Now think about it, XXI was ready and entered service in late 42 or at the beginning of 43. Allied navy has recently using ASDICs in their DDs and XXI has schnorkel, anti sonar coats as well as sonar decoys, automated torpedo loading systems, most importantly, 17-18 knots submerged speed. Official max. depth is 285m. (Note that this is (225 - 247m for VIIs and they can often go beyond that) and 285 nm submerged range (Note: 80nm for VIIs) britain would be completely isolated and USA will not be able to participate effectively in Europe.

Only one XXI was performed active duty in the last days of war and even it was detected by a pack of latest technology DDs, it survived the war, as DDs were looking for a sub making 3kts, XXI got away with 9 knots in silent speed.

Let me remind that, XXI were all design templates for US and Soviet navies after the war. during cold war, All tango class, victor class, Los angles class nuclear subs are derived from its design concepts.

XXI could definitely changed the war, at least for sure with Britain and USA.

[GerritJ9]

The "O-21" entered service in early 1940, not 1936. Like the "O-19" class before it, the "O-21s" COULD use the snorkel to run the diesels while submerged- that was the whole point. When the "O-21s" arrived in Britain after the German invasion of Holland, the Royal Navy ordered the removal of the system because they considered it useless and too dangerous. (I would have told the RN to get stuffed!)
There is a photo of the "O-21" at periscope depth with periscopes and snorkel gear above the surface and clearly running the diesels, taken in early 1940 off Vlissingen during trials. Interestingly, the Dutch Navy first intended to install a prototype snorkel system in "O-8" (ex- RN "H-6") in the early 1930s and some sketches of the proposed installation have survived. The conversion was never carried out, however, most probably due to lack of funds.

[Puster Bill]

I'll get clobbered for saying this on this forum, but the whole U-boat war effort was pointless, nevermind what type of boat. There is no way that Britain could have been starved to death... ever. It just isn't possible.

Besides, Hitler was never betting on starving England out of existence, but rather the original plan was to make it suficiently uncomfortable for the British so that they would just sign a peace treaty where they would basicaly leave Hitler be and have his way on continental Europe. Hitler was betting that the British had only been allies of the French for a short while but enemies for ever (hey, how about that hundred years war?). Of course the whole deal is more complicated than that, but that was the general idea.

He just miscalculated the Churchill factor. I beleive Chamberlain would have signed for peace.
I'm not going to clobber you, but I am going to disagree with you. Had the Kriegsmarine had the requisite number of boats at the beginning of the war, it could have starved the UK into submission.

It very nearly did so in WWI, and in fact could have done so, had they stuck to the policy of unrestricted submarine warfare from 1915 on. They didn't due to fears that America would join forces with England, but even the sinking of the Lusitania didn't bring America into the war. It took a ham-fisted attempt by Germany to enlist Mexico's aid in case America declared war on Germany to bring the US into the war. Even then, American reaction to the Zimmermann telegram was ambivalent, until Zimmermann himself, in what must be the most stupidly honest thing a politician has ever uttered, admitted that it was in fact true, and not a provocation by Britain as many in the US believed.

There were some advances in anti-submarine technology and doctrine by 1939, including ASDIC and convoying, but those advances weren't necessarily a death-knell to the U-bootwaffe, as doctrinal changes between WWI and WWII (specifically, night surface attacks, and the concept of the 'wolfpack') largely nullified those.

With a large enough u-boat force in 1939, the Kriegsmarine could have effectively blockaded the British Isles. They didn't do too badly with the force they had: They reduced the imports into the British Isles to a large degree. The Royal Navy of 1939 and 1940 would not be able to cope with large numbers of u-boats surrounding the British Isles. It would have required them to pull just about all of their naval assets from around the World back into home waters, and that would have led to further advances by the Axis powers. As late as the Spring of 1943, Britain was chronically low on fuel reserves, and had they not been able through technological advances to turn the tide, would have been in dire straights indeed.

[TarJak]

I have read somewhere (forget where) that the XXI was originally meant to be powered by a closed-cycle engine that ran on hydrogen peroxide - it didn't need air to run. I think they never would have got that developed in time even if the program was given total priority, the challenges are too great - u-boats powered by hydrogen peroxide are just starting to become a reality now...

I also read that the german high command (maybe Hitler or Donitz, not sure) cancelled development of the XXI in about 1940, because they believed they were not needed, they could win the battle of the atlantic without them.
Originally they were meant to come into service about 1941.

Now if Nazi germany had had a buttload of XXIs in '41 I don't know if that would have changed the course of the war, but it certainly would have made he atlantic a MUCH more dangerous place and would have at a minimum prolonged the war a few more years.
Correct and in fact the British and Russions experimented with using subs powered by modernised versions of the same chemical reaction technology but they didn't have a great deal of success. Germany has a new 212 boats using hydrogen fuel cells. These subs are even quieter than the vaunted Los Angeles class holes in the water.

[KeybdFlyer]

You might want to take a look at "Superiority" by Arthur C. Clarke too. Using-up time & resources to attain a technical lead over your enemy is not always the best course of action; 1000 "bog-standard" weapons can achieve better results than 100 highly advanced ones - by sheer weight of numbers.

[danurve]

Quite an interesting read this thread has become. It reminds me of why many of us enjoy the game and have a common interest in the time period.

I don't beleive the XXI was pointless, just to late.
I also belive the U-boat war was over by `43.
Goering was a Turd, not just to the KM but to the entire axis.

The KM for a multitude of reasons dicked the dog with what little resources they had. Sending boats all over & chewing up fuel instead of using them to blockade the UK. The late development of the XXI/XXIII was another blunder. This is going to sound like a slam on the IX players but it's not, so please don't take it that way - but, imo the type 9 was more pointless then the XXI. Had those resources been realocated.. ehh, moot point.

[Ubåtskapten]

I have read somewhere (forget where) that the XXI was originally meant to be powered by a closed-cycle engine that ran on hydrogen peroxide - it didn't need air to run. I think they never would have got that developed in time even if the program was given total priority, the challenges are too great - u-boats powered by hydrogen peroxide are just starting to become a reality now...

I also read that the german high command (maybe Hitler or Donitz, not sure) cancelled development of the XXI in about 1940, because they believed they were not needed, they could win the battle of the atlantic without them.
Originally they were meant to come into service about 1941.

Now if Nazi germany had had a buttload of XXIs in '41 I don't know if that would have changed the course of the war, but it certainly would have made he atlantic a MUCH more dangerous place and would have at a minimum prolonged the war a few more years. Here are some links regarding the Walter boats, which were equipped with a hydrogen peroxide turbine to make the boat’s propulsion air independent. While combining this technology with streamlined design some test vessels engineered by Hellmuth Walter managed to reach a underwater top speed of over 23 knots. The XXI was actually a variant of the Walter-boat XVIII, which had similar design but was driven by the Walter turbine. The Kriegsmarine decided to use almost the same hull design as the XVIII but with a diesel engine and lots of batteries instead of the Walter turbine. Mainly I would say because of it's high costs and because of the risk with using this new and fairly untested technology, and of course the (at the time) lesser operational range compared to conventional diesels. Interestingly enough the Germans have today operational U-boats of the Type 212 class, which is driven by a modern AIP system with hydrogen fuel cells.

http://uboat.net/types/walter_hist.htm
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter-Antrieb
http://jtmcdaniel.com/walter_turbine.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine

Regarding the XXI I believe it would have had an impact on the U-boat war if deployed as early as in 41" because of its, for the allies, “hopefully” unexpected capabilities with high speed silent running, launching torpedoes from greater depths and so forth. On the other hand one can understand that they saw no need for such an expensive boat at the time before 41 when the war was going fairly well for the Germans.

At least the XXI was a big milestone that set the mark for future streamlined submarine designs and technological improvements. And it clearly influenced the design of many allied subs developed after the war.

[Hitman]

Germany lost the war first when they engaged the Soviet Union and later as the US entered the war. The Type XXI would have been needless if Hitler had not decided to challenge the soviet union, because IMO he could have starved Britain with the older U-Boots. But as soon as a new front was open (East front), and then as the industrial power of the US entered the war, it was possible to put new ships on the sea faster than they were sunk. Even if Type XXI's had been available from the start:down:

Note that had germany not engaged the soviet union, many resources (Steel and heavy industry) could have been used to build U-Boots. I bet that if instead of buidling up a heavier Army and aditional tanks between 1940 and june 1941, they had built and trained the crew of 200 new U-Boots from june 1940 onwards (When french bases became available and France surrendered), by Dec 7 1941 when the US decided to enter the war, Britain could have already asked for negotiations. After all, they nearly starved Britain with only 30 U-Boots:hmm:

[Dowly]

The allied losses would have been much higher if more of XXI's could have been produced earlier in the war. BUT, I dont think that it would have made difference to the outcome of the battle of Atlantik.

Two reasons

1) Like in every situation, the enemy adapts to a new threat. New uboats -> new ASW weapons.

2) And even with XXI boat, the allies would have had their factories building up the ships at faster pace than they were destroyed by the germans.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Germany lost the war first when they engaged the Soviet Union and later as the US entered the war. But as soon as a new front was open (East front), and then as the industrial power of the US entered the war, it was possible to put new ships on the sea faster than they were sunk. Even if Type XXI's had been available from the start:down:



Exactly, Germany stretched itself to thin with the new front and allied shipping was being pumped out at a much higher rate than earlier in the war.

RDP

[Mush Martin]

IMO The allied Co ordinated ASW systems aircraft support groups DF
and other ELINT etc. would still have defeated The type XXI

however the XXI was indeed a fundamental advance in Submarine
design. as such it influenced boats of the next 60 yrs. with its
emphasis on submerged performance and endurance.


so no the XXI wasnt MOOT at all, I just feel the result was inevitable.

[Takeda Shingen]

Correct and in fact the British and Russions experimented with using subs powered by modernised versions of the same chemical reaction technology but they didn't have a great deal of success. Germany has a new 212 boats using hydrogen fuel cells. These subs are even quieter than the vaunted Los Angeles class holes in the water.

I should expect so. Even some of the improved 688s are nearly 30 years old. That's Cold War technology.

The SSN-21 and Virginia classes are a different story.

[ReallyDedPoet]

so no the XXI wasnt MOOT at all, I just feel the result was inevitable.

Yes, as you mentioned M, it had an influence for years to come.

http://www.ussnautilus.org/images/bwunder.jpg
Uss Nautilus

RDP

[Takeda Shingen]

Perhaps SSN-571 borrowed some upon some ideas from hull designs, [the design did not last very long due to the advent of the Albacore hull] but the Walther plants and the nuclear steam plant are very different designs. In that respect, the XXI was, at best, a minor contributor to nuclear propulsion.

The Soviets, on the other hand, took a very keen interest. Both the Wiskey and Foxtrot classes were, essentially, upgraded XXIs.

[Mush Martin]

I guess I meant in the indirect sense of the priority the development of
nuclear propulsion is really just an extension of the emphasis on the value
of underwater endurance, the albacore hull an extension of the emphasis
on underwater performance, and modern targeting sonars a development
of the priority in the XXI to enable submerged shooting solutions.

not direct technological influence as such more design philosophy and
emphasis.
MM

[ReallyDedPoet]

Perhaps SSN-571 borrowed some upon some ideas from hull designs, [the design did not last very long due to the advent of the Albacore hull] but the Walther plants and the nuclear steam plant are very different designs.

Yeah, I was more going on hull design versus propulsion systems :yep:

RDP

[Mush Martin]

I think where we as speculating historians always miss everytime on
the type XXI what ifs is this.

Have any of you ever considered in the context of the times
that we speculate on, the Potential of the type XXI to aid in winning
the war (or a few engagements) as an ASW platform itself.

it would have been the best of the lot at submerged prosecution
quite in a league of its own.

MM

[ReallyDedPoet]

Have any of you ever considered in the context of the times
that we speculate on, the Potential of the type XXI to aid in winning
the war (or a few engagements) as an ASW platform itself.

MM

She was the first real combat submarine that was meant to dwell in the deep and not just retreat to it once in danger.

from uboat.net

In relation to your point.

RDP

[MENTAT]

Germany lost the war first when they engaged the Soviet Union and later as the US entered the war.
Soviet Union would eventually attack Germany and Hitler knew that. It was wise in his decision to atack. The main reason for defat was the just misjudgement of soviet terrain. Please note Moscow was about to fall in the first blitzkrieg.


Note that had germany not engaged the soviet union, many resources (Steel and heavy industry) could have been used to build U-Boots. I bet that if instead of buidling up a heavier Army and aditional tanks between 1940 and june 1941, they had built and trained the crew of 200 new U-Boots from june 1940 onwards

After the fall of France, tons of tanks and armored French vehicles have been captured by Germans. But it was not still not enough for the Soviet front. The front was so huge and losses were enormous.

[Penelope_Grey]

I'll get clobbered for saying this on this forum, but the whole U-boat war effort was pointless, nevermind what type of boat. There is no way that Britain could have been starved to death... ever. It just isn't possible.

Wasn't possible? Anything is possible... in fact, the UK came within 4 weeks of total collapse due to lack of supplies. That was courtesy of the effort against the supply lines.

[Hitman]

Soviet Union would eventually attack Germany and Hitler knew that. It was wise in his decision to atack. The main reason for defat was the just misjudgement of soviet terrain. Please note Moscow was about to fall in the first blitzkrieg.


Well yes and no. May be if Soviet Union had attacked first -which is doubtful because Stalin didn't really want anything in the west, and had seen how France and Britain had been crushed out- the political scenary would have been different. And anyway, by June 1941 the soviets had obviously not yet attacked, so Hitler would have had time to defeat England with a larger U-Boot fleet.

But like CCCIP said, real historians hate what-ifs :hmm:

[MENTAT]

I dont think that it would have made difference to the outcome of the battle of Atlantik.
Disagree:

Two reasons
1) Like in every situation, the enemy adapts to a new threat. New uboats -> new ASW weapons.
Yes of course this is a race, just like in the air for aircraft technology and on the land armor technology. Germans were very good in all aspects, that is why war has extended so far and that is why we are negotiating in what ifs.


2) And even with XXI boat, the allies would have had their factories building up the ships at faster pace than they were destroyed by the germans.
Read the posts, even with the insufficient armada, Germans managed to thrill British and made them consider a white peace. Also, US ships were constantly sent to the area to aid British in U-boat sweep. ıf the Isle was isolated, how in the earth, US would send ships across atlantic?

So, they could have bleed Britain to dry and force them for peace. It was highly possible. Hitler never intended an invasion, all his intensions were to push british out of war.

[Mush Martin]

No Hitlers strategy was at fault the only thrusts that mattered were
Moscow and the Caucusus via the Ukraine. honestly if he wanted to
achieve elbow room effectively he would have been better to stop
at the original border and consolidate poland for a year prior to
the ill timed invasion. Hitlers interference in the movements of
the army groups prevented the Vital support of Lizt in the caucauses
which would have provided all the oil the germans needed and denied
it to the soviets.
the war in the east was not Misjudgement of terrain. it was the
meddling of an egotistic megalomaniac in military affairs.
the death of sixth army at "Stalingrad" shows how brilliant the
russian strategy was, they killed an entire army with a name.

how different a war it would be if moscow Fell first and
and the caucuses and Egypt had recieved the support they
deserved. German possesion of Moscow as an First Priority
target would have done much to slow the soviet industrial
move east and the organization of resistence, no it wouldnt
have prevented the russian recovery but it would have resulted
in meeting it on more equal terms later. the caucuses oil would
have Put vitality in the german war effort the shortage of oil
was paralytic to germany and this would have resolved much
as well as oil from the desert if rommel had had as little as
ten percent of the resources given to russia.

I believe he is correct to say that germany lost the war
when they declared war on russia and the US not because it
was inevitable to lose but because germany erred so in trying

[Hitman]

Hitler never intended an invasion, all his intensions were to push british out of war.

You are right, Hitler in fact wanted badly Britain to join him or at least to look in another direction while he attacked the soviets. He was slightly surprised when Britain finally declared the war on germany after invading Poland. He knew brits threatened to do so, but since his interests were in the east he ultimately thought the brits would leave him harrass the USSR because that benefited them also indirectly. Obviously Hitler had not learned the lessons from just 20 years ago, when Britain made anything possible to ensure that in europe there would not be another nation as powerful as themselves:hmm:

[MENTAT]

.. if Soviet Union had attacked first -which is doubtful because Stalin didn't really want anything in the west, and had seen how France and Britain had been crushed out- the political scenary would have been different.

No, Stalin was just looking out for an opportunity, as ideologically, Germany was in position of "the defender of the fascism", Soviets were "the defender of communism", these two ideology was in feud for eachother. basically it was a conflict of ideoligies, not teritorial profits.

If Stalin hesitated on an attack plan on Germany, the only reason could be of a newly implemented communism which was fragile condition in Russia. They were busy with annihilating vast amount of people who were unfortunate to refuse communism.

And anyway, by June 1941 the soviets had obviously not yet attacked, so Hitler would have had time to defeat England with a larger U-Boot fleet.

Can give credits for that, however, Hitler with attacking Soviets on his mind, just couldnt focus on Britain effectively. With the fear of being stabbed by the Soviets, he just wanted to conclude the West front quickly and go for soviets. For that reason, and with the boost of Goring, he decided to hasten things up and decided for Battle of Britain, not from underwater but a quick version from air. Eventually failed to do so.

[MENTAT]

... when Britain made anything possible to ensure that in europe there would not be another nation as powerful as themselves:hmm:

They were not powerful already their sole advantage was being an island nation geographically and large navy

France was almost as powerful as Brits, even more powerful from them. They lost the war miserably.

[Mush Martin]

[/quote]
Can give credits for that, however, Hitler with attacking Soviets on his mind, just couldnt focus on Britain effectively. With the fear of being stabbed by the Soviets, he just wanted to conclude the West front quickly and go for soviets. For that reason, and with the boost of Goring, he decided to hasten things up and decided for Battle of Britain, not from underwater but a quick version from air. Eventually failed to do so.[/quote]

and I can give credit to that,

[Thniper]

Hitler never intended an invasion, all his intensions were to push british out of war.

Hmm, I always thought that operation 'Seeloewe' was intended to prepare an invasion of Britain, afterwards resulting in the Battle of Britain.:nope:

So Hitler didn't really intend an invasion?:hmm:
That's new to me! Well, I'm always learning...

[Mush Martin]

Hitler never intended an invasion, all his intensions were to push british out of war.
Hmm, I always thought that operation 'Seeloewe' was intended to prepare an invasion of Britain, afterwards resulting in the Battle of Britain.:nope:

So Hitler didn't really intend an invasion?:hmm:
That's new to me! Well, I'm always learning...

He did intend it but hes stating that the resolve and intention changed
it was sealion that lead to the battle of britain, but with all the boats
they could muster they didnt have enough to move the wermacht across
fast enough for the KM to protect them especially under RAF aircover
so the Luftwaffe was sent in to establish air superiority to enable the
invasion but dieu to the strategic error of changing priorities from
military airbases to cities as a result of a Taunt by churchill where by
a distressed German bomber dumped its load in an inflight emergency
on london Churchill played it as deliberate even though he knew
the was a luftwaffe restriction on the capitol at the time as a
result he bombed berlin for the next three nights until Hitler
turned his bombers on the counter prestige target.
leading to the recovery of RaF fighter command and the
eventual victory over the Luftwaffe leading to a free and
Happy world blah blah god ive grown longwinded.
M

[Stoli]

Allied Air Superiority over the Atlantic trumped any modern advancement in U-Boat Technology Mass production of the XXI would of equaled more dead U-Boat crews.

[Dantenoc]

Allied Air Superiority over the Atlantic trumped any modern advancement in U-Boat Technology Mass production of the XXI would of equaled more dead U-Boat crews.

Of course. A what if can be countered with another what if very easily, and as things stand today, building a high-tech sub is very expensive and technologicaly complicated while droping an acoustic guided torpedo from a plane or helicopter to kill it is relatively quite cheap and easy to do. Good bye XXI.

On another subject, I still stand by my original affirmation. Brittain could have never ever been truly submited by starvation. As correctly mentioned by others, the most that Hitler could expect was a "white peace" with Britain. He had a good case for it too, for numerous reasons that I won't get into (just remeber things like the hundred years war), but he misscalculated Winston Churchill. The man was obssesed with defeating Hitler (thank God for that) and there was no way that he was going to play along with the Furer.

What would it take to "starve" a nation out of war?

If they have a weak will to fight, a small reduction of, say, 5% in consumer goods availability that caused inconvenient lines at the supermarket maybe quite enough. The U-boats could have achieved this and in fact did (and more).

BUT if they have the will and resolve of a Winston Churchill, inspiring them to pick up a kitchen knife and take at least one of the dirty hun with you when the invasion finaly comes, then you have a different story. Then what? incur a loss of consumer goods of 30%? 50%? 75%? I don't think it would have been enough even then. A lot of third world countries today have a mean family income less than $8 U.S. dollars daily and they manage to get along. There is of course, a braking point. But I beleive that long before that breaking point would have been reached the rest of the world would have risen in Britain's behalf, either by pity, fear of suffering the same faith, good old fashioned beleif in whats right, or for whatever reason but they would have stepped in. So that would have backfired.

And even IF (an if that I hope we all agree now that really couldn't happen) IF England should fall, Winston Churchill had vowed that the "dominion" (the rest of the empire and commonwealth) would carry on the fight and then what? starve India, Canada, South Africa and Australia out of the war? It just isn't doable.

One last point: Consider the principle of diminished investment return. I you invest 300 U-boats into the war effort, you might sink (just to say a figure) one quarter of the total allied tonnage. Does that mean that if you invest 600 U-boats into the war effort, you will sink half? and that if you invest 1200 U-boats you will sink all of the allied tonnage? NO, of course not, past a certain point of equilibrium, investing more produces incresingly diminishing results until you finaly reach a point where it cost you more to hunt than the actual losses that you inflict. The principle of diminished investment return sucks, just ask any fisherman. :hmm:

Edit: By the way, how much would it cost to produce each type of U-boat and how much for a cargo ship (along with it's cargo)? Anybody know? I've been wondering about this for some time. I want't to know how many tonns do I need to sink before I consider myself a "good investment" for the fatherland? (I realize the value of cargo varies wildly, I'm looking for ballpark figures)

[Puster Bill]

Allied Air Superiority over the Atlantic trumped any modern advancement in U-Boat Technology Mass production of the XXI would of equaled more dead U-Boat crews.
Of course. A what if can be countered with another what if very easily, and as things stand today, building a high-tech sub is very expensive and technologicaly complicated while droping an acoustic guided torpedo from a plane or helicopter to kill it is relatively quite cheap and easy to do. Good bye XXI.

Not so fast, literally. The FIDO had a speed of about 12 knots, far below that of the Type XXI. But you don't even have to be FASTER than the torpedo, just not significantly slower.

The FIDO couldn't really go much faster, given the technology, and still have been reasonably air-droppable. That would mean a much bigger battery, lengthening the torpedo, making it much heavier, and making it less manueverable.

Also, the FIDO had only a 27% success rate against the slower Type VII and IX boats. Of all of the 'hits' a FIDO made on submarines in WWII (about 55), fully 1/3rd, or 18, only resulted in damage to the sub, not a sinking.

Also, it would not have taken too long to develop countermeasures. First and foremost, simply crash diving at flank speed to maximum operational depth would take care of it.

For the slow boats like the VII and IX, a simple bouy that transmitted the sound of a u-boat at high speed, coupled with running at silent speed, would have nullified almost all FIDO attacks. Even for a slow boat like the VIIC/41, crash diving to 200 meters would probably prevent a FIDO from successfully attacking given enough distance from the point it was launched: They were set to search at 50 feet initially, and it was later set to 150 feet. Surfacing, while it would get you out of danger from the FIDO, would mean you would have to deal with the aircraft that dropped it.

While it isn't really stated anywhere that I have read, I suspect that the Germans knew about the FIDO near the end of the war, as the Type XXI was to be equipped with a special passive sonar receiver in the conning tower specifically tuned to listen for torpedoes. The only real reason to have something like that is to be able to counter a weapon like the FIDO. When you couple that evidence along with the fact that several boats were merely damaged, and not sunk, in FIDO attacks, BdU must have known *SOMETHING*.

But what we have here is the continual battle of measure, countermeasure, and counter-countermeasure. I'm not sure if any of us can say how it would have played out with any certainty.

[Mush Martin]

Allied Air Superiority over the Atlantic trumped any modern advancement in U-Boat Technology Mass production of the XXI would of equaled more dead U-Boat crews.
Of course. A what if can be countered with another what if very easily, and as things stand today, building a high-tech sub is very expensive and technologicaly complicated while droping an acoustic guided torpedo from a plane or helicopter to kill it is relatively quite cheap and easy to do. Good bye XXI.
Not so fast, literally. The FIDO had a speed of about 12 knots, far below that of the Type XXI. But you don't even have to be FASTER than the torpedo, just not significantly slower.

The FIDO couldn't really go much faster, given the technology, and still have been reasonably air-droppable. That would mean a much bigger battery, lengthening the torpedo, making it much heavier, and making it less manueverable.

Also, the FIDO had only a 27% success rate against the slower Type VII and IX boats. Of all of the 'hits' a FIDO made on submarines in WWII (about 55), fully 1/3rd, or 18, only resulted in damage to the sub, not a sinking.

Also, it would not have taken too long to develop countermeasures. First and foremost, simply crash diving at flank speed to maximum operational depth would take care of it.

For the slow boats like the VII and IX, a simple bouy that transmitted the sound of a u-boat at high speed, coupled with running at silent speed, would have nullified almost all FIDO attacks. Even for a slow boat like the VIIC/41, crash diving to 200 meters would probably prevent a FIDO from successfully attacking given enough distance from the point it was launched: They were set to search at 50 feet initially, and it was later set to 150 feet. Surfacing, while it would get you out of danger from the FIDO, would mean you would have to deal with the aircraft that dropped it.

While it isn't really stated anywhere that I have read, I suspect that the Germans knew about the FIDO near the end of the war, as the Type XXI was to be equipped with a special passive sonar receiver in the conning tower specifically tuned to listen for torpedoes. The only real reason to have something like that is to be able to counter a weapon like the FIDO. When you couple that evidence along with the fact that several boats were merely damaged, and not sunk, in FIDO attacks, BdU must have known *SOMETHING*.

But what we have here is the continual battle of measure, countermeasure, and counter-countermeasure. I'm not sure if any of us can say how it would have played out with any certainty.


In Fact of course Correct.

however the previous history of the adaptability of allied technological
development is sure enough to suppose that the problems of FIDO
would have been overcome, other air dropped torps were faster it was
a matter of Materiel I think regarding protection of the seeker head
that dictated the Low and slow profile for FIDO.
[edit] also with a torp strong enough to go deeper would come
the strength to drop and travel faster.

[MENTAT]

In Fact of course Correct.

however the previous history of the adaptability of allied technological
development is sure enough to suppose that the problems of FIDO
would have been overcome, other air dropped torps were faster it was
a matter of Materiel I think regarding protection of the seeker head
that dictated the Low and slow profile for FIDO.


And of course an advanced torpedo means an advanced counter-measure.

[Puster Bill]

In Fact of course Correct.

however the previous history of the adaptability of allied technological
development is sure enough to suppose that the problems of FIDO
would have been overcome, other air dropped torps were faster it was
a matter of Materiel I think regarding protection of the seeker head
that dictated the Low and slow profile for FIDO.

And of course an advanced torpedo means an advanced counter-measure.

Measure, counter-measure, counter-counter-measure, ad infinitum.

There really wasn't anything that prevented the Allies from making a bigger and faster acoustic torpedo, it just wouldn't have been very practical to make them air-droppable from conventional long range maritime patrol aircraft. You could drop them from dedicated torpedo bombers, of course, as they were designed to carry larger torpedoes. But, that means that the 'improved' FIDO is really only available to carrier task forces, and close to the land bases.

Plus, any technique likely to work against a FIDO will likely work against it's successor, within reason.

I do wish that FIDO's were modeled in SHIII, as I would love to test out some of my ideas (realizing, of course, that simulation doesn't necessarily equal real life).

For instance, crash diving to maximum depth, then going to silent running, with perhaps a course change. Or just going to silent running once you get underwater.

[Mush Martin]

I have a great account somewhere on the threads here of an experience
I had with some runaway acoustics that came after me during River Class
Frigate testing
IMO they werent that hard to fox.

two of the six torp spread came about and ran back down range towards
me, I went dead quiet and the passed behind me then while they were
still in earshot I Throttled up to flank. appropriately the torps came about
to track on me and I went quick quiet and they passed left and right of me
back up range and got individual hits on the two remaining rivers that
were bearing down on me, (no kaa kaa)

was a great experience.
M

[Stoli]

The German secret weapons group never got the chance to install their revolutionary propulsions system. The system was based on a top secret flux-capacitor design that would make traversing the Atlantic a cake walk. The problem with the system was it required a huge amount of power to get the revolutions to 88rpms.

[Mush Martin]

15 gigawatts :o

[Tronics]

I'd say the XXI was pointless in 1944.

Now say in 1941, it could have further influenced the tide of the war but I doubt that it could have turned it.

There were simply too many still negative variables in the situation.

So lets assume that the XXI is operational in say 1941. The following varables still hold true.

1. Bletchy Park reads Enigma traffic on an almost daily basis until the massive code change in 1944.

2. ASW detection and destruction methods get progressively better with the introduction of ASDIC and airborne radar.

3. The Reich's industrial production capacity isn't changed and continues to stedially decrease as the war progresses.

4. The unprecendented US industrial output churns out 32* new cargo vessels a week untill 1946. *-I forget the exact average number but it was amazingly high.

5. The uboatwaffe contnues to expand exponentially and therefore a has tons of inexperienced kaleuns.

I think that even with the capability to create the XXI as early as 1940 that the fate of the war and the extremely high casualty rate of the uboatwaffe would probably remain unchanged, the only increase would be in the overall GRT sent to the bottom.

[Stoli]

Oil baby, Black Gold!

Allied air power destroyed Axis Oil fields, Oil production plants and Oil carrying transports.

No Oil = No War Machine. Uboats, Tanks, Bombers, ect... were fastly becoming a mute issue.

War is all about the Oil, even more so today. :rock:

P.S. That is why you should ALWAYS sink a tanker over a merchant vessel.

[Puster Bill]

I'd say the XXI was pointless in 1944.

Now say in 1941, it could have further influenced the tide of the war but I doubt that it could have turned it.

There were simply too many still negative variables in the situation.

So lets assume that the XXI is operational in say 1941. The following varables still hold true.

1. Bletchy Park reads Enigma traffic on an almost daily basis until the massive code change in 1944.


Err, no. The Allies were blacked out of Enigma from about February of 1942 to about November or December of 1942. That was due to the switch from 3 rotor machines to the kind-of 4 rotor machines. After that, they mostly kept current, except for times when the wetterkurzsignalheft and kurzsignalheft were changed, but those generally only lasted a few days.



2. ASW detection and destruction methods get progressively better with the introduction of ASDIC and airborne radar.
True, but the Allies had ASDIC since the beginning of the war (although not as good, and not as many sets). Also, there was a distinct drop in sinkings of snorkel equipped boats in 1944-1945, because radar has a hard time detecting a boat that only sticks a pipe out of the water for 4 hours out of every 24. The disadvantage to the Germans was that it lengthened the transit time to operational areas for the conventional Type VII and IX boats, but that wouldn't have been an issue with a Type XXI.


3. The Reich's industrial production capacity isn't changed and continues to stedially decrease as the war progresses.
Not necessarily. If the can apply enough pressure to the supply lines of the Allies, that helps to mitigate the damage that the Allies can do to German industrial capacity. I don't think the Germans could have increased capacity by very much, if at all, but I also don't think it would have declined as fast as it did.


4. The unprecendented US industrial output churns out 32* new cargo vessels a week untill 1946. *-I forget the exact average number but it was amazingly high.

True, but that program didn't hit full production until later in the war.


5. The uboatwaffe contnues to expand exponentially and therefore a has tons of inexperienced kaleuns.

Which was also true of the US, British, and Canadian navies. The thing is, with better boats on the German side, you don't lose your experienced commanders as quickly, and they are available to train and pass down knowledge and experience to their IWO and IIWO's, who become commanders later.


I think that even with the capability to create the XXI as early as 1940 that the fate of the war and the extremely high casualty rate of the uboatwaffe would probably remain unchanged, the only increase would be in the overall GRT sent to the bottom.


I disagree. I think what would have happened is that it would have postponed D-Day until at least 1945, or perhaps 1946, which would have resulted in Little Boy being dropped on Berlin instead of Hiroshima. For all that the threat of a Type XXI/XXIII based force would have posed earlier in the war, it wouldn't have made a difference to the Manhattan Project, which was entirely based in the US.

[Mush Martin]

I do so cherish these exhchanges,:up::up:

[MENTAT]

@pusterbill, +1 :up:

[MENTAT]

I'd say the XXI was pointless in 1944.

Now say in 1941, it could have further influenced the tide of the war but I doubt that it could have turned it.

There were simply too many still negative variables in the situation.
So lets assume that the XXI is operational in say 1941. The following varables still hold true.

1. Bletchy Park reads Enigma traffic on an almost daily basis until the massive code change in 1944.
2. ASW detection and destruction methods get progressively better with the introduction of ASDIC and airborne radar.
3. The Reich's industrial production capacity isn't changed and continues to stedially decrease as the war progresses.
4. The unprecendented US industrial output churns out 32* new cargo vessels a week untill 1946. *-I forget the exact average number but it was amazingly high.
5. The uboatwaffe contnues to expand exponentially and therefore a has tons of inexperienced kaleuns.

I think that even with the capability to create the XXI as early as 1940 that the fate of the war and the extremely high casualty rate of the uboatwaffe would probably remain unchanged, the only increase would be in the overall GRT sent to the bottom.


Well if you expand the topic, then you should consider other superweapons of the 3rd reich; Say, if all inventions take earlier in war preferably no later than beggining of 1942;

XXI submarines wreaking havoc in the seas around the britain preventing any merchant, troop transports and oil tankers reaching to mainland. Which means No consumer goods, no troops and most importantly no oil for brits. US ships had no chance to intervene over atlantic as they would have no ports to refuel. I can assume 100 units of XXI addition to existing forces would be enough for such a goal considering XXIs had more range=more time at sea and more than twice the torpedo load of a VII. (Let me remind you, German docks were reached to a maximum capacity of launching 1 boats per day in late days of war.)

In the meantime, Me262 jets wreaking havoc in the skies, nullifying air defence capabilities of RAF and later bombers like B17s bombing industrials over Germany. Industrial capacity will not be harmed as you presume.. (And no B17s to bomb germany since fuel is blockated by XXIs, which means total air superiority over Europe)

For a far more projection of a what if scenario;

Maus tanks smashing their way out over to Russia hopefully reaching to oil fields at caucasus. And even they fail to do so, they had Romenia oil fields at hand and they would not split their armies to west and east as Britain was about submission or at least incapacitated, and in the worst case Germans had the technology to produce synthetic oil from coal as you all know.

If I was to expand my assumption, With the Me262 fighter bombers operating both Africa and mediterranean, they would also be able to aid Rommel in Afrika, sending reinforcements across mediterranean without the fear of allied air cover and securing oil fields over Egypth, leading to more oil supplies.

For those who have an a-bomb raid on Germany on their minds, Nuking Berlin would be out of question as B17s (and later B29s) were incapable of taking off from a carrier and even they were so, no carrier would be able to approach enough past XXIs.

Moreover, as all you know, Germany was also working on her own Nuclear program, and the development of V2s were initialy for intentions to enable to send them over continents. Which means with little haste, they would be able to send a nuclear warhead on top of USA. (For those who still dont know; Japan also had a Nuclear program but, switched it earlier to focus on for a huge microwave beam artillery program which they were more excited with.)

So, What-ifs will never end, and no one can clearly state, outcome of War was never changed, or vice versa. Winners of WWII was surely allies but not to forget it was a victory by a neck.

[Mush Martin]

Whenever I indulge in this excersize I always do it the other way
not what if this was made before but what if the war started
later

say in 1943 in say mmmmmmmmmmmmm april traditional start of
the campaigning season.

[IrischKapitan]

Maus tanks smashing their way out over to Russia hopefully reaching to oil fields at caucasus. And even they fail to do so, they had Romenia oil fields at hand and they would not split their armies to west and east as Britain was about submission or at least incapacitated, and in the worst case Germans had the technology to produce synthetic oil from coal as you all know.

[/quote]

The maus was a complete waste of time. Blitzkrieg in the early war was won won by fast nimble tanks eg Pz IV. The maus was a 120 tonne monster which had a top speed of 5mph on solid ground, whick could have beign easily flanked by russian Anti -tank guns. Blitzkrieg would have relied on an advance like the on the Ardennes with a tank like the panther of tiger II. More tanks like these in 41 and moscow would have fallen, Stalin commites suicide, russia in complete comfusion. Germany mops up the remaining resistance. War with russia as good as over.......................

[MENTAT]

say in 1943 in say mmmmmmmmmmmmm april traditional start of
the campaigning season.

why april 1943?

[GerritJ9]

Let's assume that Little Boy and Fat Man WERE dropped on Berlin and, say Munich. After that, the US has to wait for new bombs to be manufactured. Will Germany sit idly by??????? Hardly likely- much more likely is that Germany will retaliate with their super-secret nerve gases: Tabun, Sarin and Soman. They had HUGE stockpiles of these weapons- goodbye populations of London, Moscow, Leningrad and scores of other cities. Neither the western allies nor the Soviets had any protection at all against these gases.

[Puster Bill]

Let's assume that Little Boy and Fat Man WERE dropped on Berlin and, say Munich. After that, the US has to wait for new bombs to be manufactured. Will Germany sit idly by??????? Hardly likely- much more likely is that Germany will retaliate with their super-secret nerve gases: Tabun, Sarin and Soman. They had HUGE stockpiles of these weapons- goodbye populations of London, Moscow, Leningrad and scores of other cities. Neither the western allies nor the Soviets had any protection at all against these gases.

Perhaps, but who is going to be available to give that order?

[Mush Martin]

@ Mentat a random date really, I just love hypothetical debates sometimes.
M