In the long-term this is ruinous for Germany

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,489255,00.html

former communists and protesting extreme-lefts have forged a new party that not only poses serious threads to the established parties and the SPD, but could also cause by it's mere existance a general massive left-shift in policy-making, when parties in order to prevent loosing to many voters to "Die Linke" - will accept the need to act more leftist themselves. Some analysts say that not only one fourth of SPD voters, but one fourth of all voters in general could eventually make their cross in favour of "Die Linke". formed by former SED communists and the audience around extreme influential and aggressive demagogue Lafontaine, this birth of a party monster has the potential to really pick the parties in Germany apart.

that this will be most ruinous for the financial situation of the state, and reduce germany's attractiveness for educated families, middle and higher social classes, and most likely will increase brain drain and tax-refugees, while at the same time the numbers of badly or uneducated foreigners with little chances for qualified jobs and thus high demands on the social systems will go up, must not be explicitly mentioned.

This is a very, very bad day for Germany.

After the lacking substance of the G8 summit and the lack of binding obligations instead only non-binding proclamations of intentions, and after this party founding today: if eventually the EU-treaty with it's many from worse-to-worst passages will get any kind of acceptance in the next day' summit, than I would consider this month to be the politically most ruinous month for Germany I have ever witnessed in my life of 40 years.

And for German-able readers, on the many failings in the EU-treaty (since I already mentioned it anyway):
http://www.welt.de/politik/article955079/Warum_die_EU-Verfassung_problematisch_ist.html

(It's a former German federal president, former judge at the highest german constitutional court, and chairman of the EU-basic rights convent commenting on this madness. Policymakers and the government in Germany avpoid him like the plague).

[Letum]

Tish!
Thats no disaster!

[elite_hunter_sh3]

say hello to the future 4th Reich....:nope::nope::nope: i wonder who the fhurer is gonna be :hmm::hmm::hmm::nope::nope::nope::nope:

[Letum]

i wonder who the fhurer is gonna be:hmm:

The Soup Dragon

[Skybird]

Tish!
Thats no disaster!
For extreme lefts, it is not. For all others, it is. Lafontaine's only credo always has been: pay for it by taking it from the "rich", raise the taxes for the economy, and if somebody makes a private inheritance: let him bleed for undeservingly receiving the fruits of the labour of his parents once he had brought them under the earth. It's double taxation, but who cares. His policies are about envy from A to Y. So you see, there is some room for other things, too.

This man fulfills all negative cliches rightwingers have about "lefties". Unfortunately he is a very capable speaker, able to set the whole crowd aflame. And he is extremely powerhungry, a (short by size) Napoleon wanting to proove how great he is. He has been on the great stage years before, and by far is no unknown. All do fear him, and rightly so. He simply has what it takes to mobilize the masses. A demagogue par excellence. He also has a private vendetta with his former party, the SPD - and they with him.

[P_Funk]

Its times like this that I'm glad Canadian politics are boring.

[Camaero]

Isn't it yet clear that extreme leftists and extreme rightists are bad?:down:

[P_Funk]

Isn't it yet clear that extreme leftists and extreme rightists are bad?:down: Extreme anything is bad if it takes away the subtlty of compromise. Effective politics in Canada has always been about compromise. Left leaning minority governments have been the most effective historically. No absolutism, no hard radicalism. When certain factions have taken hard right approaches as with Mulroney in the 80s we've seen Canada decline. It took the Liberals a decade to pay off that debt and Mulroney dismantled alot of the progressive political work done through compromise.

Radicals in practice are indeed no good. Radical thought, rational process. Its like Augustine's City of God and City of Man. Aspire to one thing, live another but weigh your life based on your aspirations.

[Letum]

Isn't it yet clear that extreme leftists and extreme rightists are bad?:down:

Well, yes and no.
What seams extreme now may have been normal in the past and what was normal in the past may seam extreme now. Whats more; to the extremist the extreme seams normal, whilst the normal seams extreme.

The history of ideas and ideals is one of a battle of extremities that results in compromises only for these compromises to become extremities compared to the latest ideas.

That's not to say that the, now extreme, normals of the past where wrong, they where just the natural products of their time; as are the current normals.

To those that like the way things are changing; this is progression. To those that do not like the change; it is degeneration.

It is important to just dismiss what is generally seen as extreme or you personally see as extreme with out judging ideas and ideals in a informed and responsible way when you can.

[Lagger123987]

i wonder who the fhurer is gonna be :hmm::hmm::hmm::nope::nope::nope::nope:
Me!:arrgh!: :arrgh!: :rotfl:

[elite_hunter_sh3]

really...where u live... *pulls out gun... blows off dust.. puts 16x optical scope... loads up .408 AP rounds into the magazine, loads gun , waits for reply from lagger to see where he lives, has travel company on the phone on hold* :arrgh!:

[August]

really...where u live... *pulls out gun... blows off dust.. puts 16x optical scope... loads up .408 AP rounds into the magazine, loads gun , waits for reply from lagger to see where he lives, has travel company on the phone on hold* :arrgh!:

Talk is cheap Sonny... :down:

[Letum]

really...where u live... *pulls out gun... blows off dust.. puts 16x optical scope... loads up .408 AP rounds into the magazine, loads gun , waits for reply from lagger to see where he lives, has travel company on the phone on hold* :arrgh!:
Talk is cheap Sonny... :down:

It would take a serious ammount of apathy not to try and kill the next Hitler if you knew for sure who it was and he was not ready for it. So I hope it isn't just talk! :doh:

[azn_132]

really...where u live... *pulls out gun... blows off dust.. puts 16x optical scope... loads up .408 AP rounds into the magazine, loads gun , waits for reply from lagger to see where he lives, has travel company on the phone on hold* :arrgh!:

Get a berett rifle instead.

[Yahoshua]

Of course smart asassins never declare their intended target before they strike, and the best asassination is one that nobody realized was an asassination to begin with.

[Tchocky]

Sky, it's only ruinous if they are voted in.

So let's worry about the German voter instead of those they havent voted for yet.
If the transfer will be as large as you say, then the existing parties will have to get off their collective......laurels :P

[elite_hunter_sh3]

tried it... mehh.. the .408 is more accurate... less recoil but still packs the firepower to tear a hole thru ur head the size of a tennis ball :arrgh!::up:.

altho... my uncle used to own this gun

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8b/M93_Black_Arrow.jpg

http://www.zastava-arms.co.yu/images/vojni/m93/8.jpg http://www.zastava-arms.co.yu/images/vojni/m93/9.jpg

12.7 x 99 Browining .50BMG or the
12.7 x 107 DSHK .50cal bullet
14.5kg
888 m /s muzzle velocity
1.6km max range... :arrgh!::arrgh!:

i let off 20 shots with this beast before my uncle had to return it... (fauly safety mechanism and the spring in the mag was a little weak.. plus my vacation time was over :cry:)

[dean_acheson]

We failed to compromise once in this country, in 1860.

[AntEater]

Since when did Skybird become all commie hater?

Seeing the Linkspartei as a thread is simply rubbish. There are people who are leftists and as long as no legislation exists to put them into concentration camps, they should have a political party.
And to paint Lafontaine as such a threat, this guy was prime minister of the Saarland for years without establishing a soviet system. Actually he didnt lose the Saarland for the SPD, that was left to the imbecile who followed him.
If the SPD leaves its own left wing out in the desert they shouldnt be suprised a new party takes the place.
Also a party which mainly consists of people above 50 is hardly revolutionary. The western clientele of the Linkspartei are "68ers" mostly.
And Lafontaine really does not propose anything more radical than a return to 1970s style economic policy. A bit unrealistic, but hardly revolutionary.

[Happy Times]

If commies get leadership in the left they ARE a danger. Thats why in Finland the right wing parties and social democrats have through out independence worked together to contain them.

[dean_acheson]

Well, you know the professional left, they should have their chance to run whatever country into the ground for a generation, and then a conservative/free market type will get elected, salvage the economy, then the professors, hippies, and professional agitators get together, yell about all the oppression, and after a few years attempt to redistribute the wealth again, and screw up the economy since there is no incentive to getting ahead/working.

Whoa, kinda obvious that I was reading David Horowitz last night, eh?

I should try to at least stiffle the invective sometimes. :D That is what happens when you spend too long in college being browbeat by professors for not thinking Che Guevera was the second coming of JCH.

[Skybird]

Since when did Skybird become all commie hater?

Seeing the Linkspartei as a thread is simply rubbish. There are people who are leftists and as long as no legislation exists to put them into concentration camps, they should have a political party.
And to paint Lafontaine as such a threat, this guy was prime minister of the Saarland for years without establishing a soviet system. Actually he didnt lose the Saarland for the SPD, that was left to the imbecile who followed him.
If the SPD leaves its own left wing out in the desert they shouldnt be suprised a new party takes the place.
Also a party which mainly consists of people above 50 is hardly revolutionary. The western clientele of the Linkspartei are "68ers" mostly.
And Lafontaine really does not propose anything more radical than a return to 1970s style economic policy. A bit unrealistic, but hardly revolutionary.
Don't be misled by some people calling me a leftie for my criticism of some aspects of American policies, or ultra-liberal capitalism, or stockm arket system, or whatever, because for them you are automatically a leftie when you do not totally support their rightwing conservative mainstream course. If you think I am a solcialist becasue of my usual posts, than you are miules off target. Social, socialism and communism are three different things, and I never bought the idea of communism or socialism. what I would define as social responsebility (that's as left as I ever could become) is too left for the neocons and liberal capitalists, and is too rightwinged for real lefties and socialists, so one more time I am sitting between all chairs again, which I like very much :D . I feel like Helmut Schmidt again, who labelled himself as "Sozialdemokrat". With that he was already so little leftist that his own party, the SPD, let him down and even tries to ignore him today when he is awarded a lifetime acchievement award, like this month in Berlin. All parties sent representatives, only the SPD was missing. As a matter of fact, thoughts like that of Schmidt never had a home in the SPD. And when I already at no costs would line up with the SPD, how much less sympathy must I have for Die Linke...!? ;)

[AntEater]

Good point.
Having my experience with leftist protesting crowds at the University, there are many things I don't like about professional leftists as well.
Problem is, compared to the current mainstream in media and german politics, I understand they have an appeal to many people, me included.
Maybe I'm somewhat more of a marxist than you are (I suppose that's also because I'm younger), but my admiration is for the man himself, not so much for his acolytes.
Yes, I actually read Marx.
The Linkspartei's viewpoints on foreign policy and military affairs are mostly downright idiotic and unrealistic, but they often take up issues that are left alone, like civil liberties and such.
My problem is similar to yours: I'm too patriotic and too much a realpolitiker to have any place within the left, and too much an opponent of the current crop of politicians and media moguls and their policies to have a home in the right wing. Not to mention that active participation on the right wing is still much about family backround and belonging to the right student's fraternity, both of which I lack.
But I don't think demonizing the Linkspartei will help matters. The Linkspartei is actually quite convenient and it can be used as a boogieman and scapegoat for the established parties.

[Smaragdadler]

[conspiracy theory on]
1. Lafontaine is a freemason. (so, part of global establishment]
2. His "mission" is to "steer" Eastgerman "opposition" to FRG.
3. the most "dangerous" oppostion to FRG is the NPD [The "Nazis"] (not really, because NPD is also steered by german intelligence, but not direct, only through 'agent provocateurs' )
4. so - nothing really to worry about (if you part with the global-establishment)
5. no source from my part this time - take it as you get it.
[/conspiracy theory off]

[Skybird]

I have read a bit of Marx too, and agree with many of his analysis of the current situation ("current" for him and his age)- he was a very precise observer, and a sharp analyst. I also agree with some of his assumptions on the future. But I also differ with quite some of his conclusions on what to do.

Judging only by the little I read of Marx, of course.

I often said that I see democracy, capitalism, socialism, communism failing for one and the same reason: false assumnptions on the reasonable, altruistic nature of man. But most of our acts and decisions are not fomred by our reason, but by our mood, by our emotion, by our selfishness, by our greed and envy. This physical body we are has a life of it's own, and that life is about physical survival by physical consummation and security, practiced by a dogma of: "the important thing first - and that is me".

But when enough is not enough, than it will never be enough.

[August]

rightwing conservative mainstream course.

:D Kinda all over the political map there aren't ya Sky?

[Smaragdadler]

When it comes to the heartical "Jew" Marx, I actual part with the heartical occultistic "Englishmen" Crowley, whoes judgement about Marx was a heartical-something like, "two third of it - genial, - but the last third completely idiotic..."

http://www.toendertijd.nl/crowley15.jpg
Aleister Crowley

[dean_acheson]

Crowley?

[Skybird]

Alistair Crowley. Famous esoteric and occultist, famous for "the Book Toth" and the Crowley-Tarot.

[AntEater]

Political and economical philosopher extraordinaire.....
:damn::rotfl:

[Smaragdadler]

Alistair Crowley...
Aleister Crowley....

"My name is Aleister Crowley
I'am a master of magick...unholy..."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Aleister_Crowley_1.png/304px-Aleister_Crowley_1.png
(one of the few British to take seriously....) :)

[Happy Times]

You Germans are seriously messed up, i first noticed something when David Hasselhoff was popular there...:hmm:


Just joking.:p

[AntEater]

Now that was something that really was ruinous in the long-term for Germany
:)

Germans are always blamed for somebody's rise to fame when they travel abroad.
It used to be him:
http://projects.brg-schoren.ac.at/Nationalsozialismus/hitler-portrait.jpg

But nowadays it is:
http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/%7Erowing/hasselhoff.jpg

[SUBMAN1]

Its times like this that I'm glad Canadian politics are boring.

What? You don't have any weirdo Frenchies wanting to break away these days and form their own superior state? :D

[Happy Times]

He is dangerous, drawing Germanys new borders in myspace.

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/9755/downloadfj0.gif (http://imageshack.us)

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=20930179

[Happy Times]

Its times like this that I'm glad Canadian politics are boring.

What? You don't have any weirdo Frenchies wanting to break away these days and form their own superior state? :D

I would love that, Team Canada is too strong. :p

[SUBMAN1]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,489255,00.html

former communists and protesting extreme-lefts have forged a new party that not only poses serious threads to the established parties and the SPD, but could also cause by it's mere existance a general massive left-shift in policy-making, when parties in order to prevent loosing to many voters to "Die Linke" - will accept the need to act more leftist themselves. Some analysts say that not only one fourth of SPD voters, but one fourth of all voters in general could eventually make their cross in favour of "Die Linke". formed by former SED communists and the audience around extreme influential and aggressive demagogue Lafontaine, this birth of a party monster has the potential to really pick the parties in Germany apart.

that this will be most ruinous for the financial situation of the state, and reduce germany's attractiveness for educated families, middle and higher social classes, and most likely will increase brain drain and tax-refugees, while at the same time the numbers of badly or uneducated foreigners with little chances for qualified jobs and thus high demands on the social systems will go up, must not be explicitly mentioned.

This is a very, very bad day for Germany.

After the lacking substance of the G8 summit and the lack of binding obligations instead only non-binding proclamations of intentions, and after this party founding today: if eventually the EU-treaty with it's many from worse-to-worst passages will get any kind of acceptance in the next day' summit, than I would consider this month to be the politically most ruinous month for Germany I have ever witnessed in my life of 40 years.

And for German-able readers, on the many failings in the EU-treaty (since I already mentioned it anyway):
http://www.welt.de/politik/article955079/Warum_die_EU-Verfassung_problematisch_ist.html

(It's a former German federal president, former judge at the highest german constitutional court, and chairman of the EU-basic rights convent commenting on this madness. Policymakers and the government in Germany avpoid him like the plague).

I'd have to agree 100%. Anything so far off base to the left or right is not good for anyone. Most of the people either on the extreme left or right are whacked in some form or fasion. As they say, somewhere in the middle is ideal.

I'll give you this Skybird - you can always travel across the pond to America. You may be a little far left yourself over here, but you'll get used to the politics this side if you care to join! :up:

-S

[P_Funk]

Its times like this that I'm glad Canadian politics are boring.
What? You don't have any weirdo Frenchies wanting to break away these days and form their own superior state? :D
No that was the 70s. Actually the 70s was very very exiting. It would have been terrible if we hadn't also had Trudeau. But heres something you can ponder for a moment. For something like 100 days in 1970 Canada was a dictatorship.

Think about that. Thats exiting. Since Mulroney and the 80s however Canada's big political issues have been the budget, health care, and paying off that behemoth Reaganesque debt. Took the Liberals 10 years and a forceably depressed Loonie to pull it but now... hehehehehe... we have no debt.

As a matter of fact aound the beginning of the month the Parti Quebecois (the Provincial seperatist party) elected a new party leader who has taken seperatism off the table for the forseeable future until it is more popular in the poles.

When I say Canadain politics are boring I mean the country isn't about to fall apart. Though at the moment the government is in a precarious position and there might be an election soon. The Liberals, the NDP, The Conservatives, and the Bloc Quebecois (national party), all have sway in the commons. Interesting time for actual political nuts like myself, but not that dangerous so long as Harper doesn't get a majority. *crosses fingers*