Venezuela to get Kilos

[Oberon]

http://english.pravda.ru/news/russia/14-06-2007/93332-russia_venezuela-0

http://en.rian.ru/world/20070614/67195446.html

http://www.boston.com/news/world/latinamerica/articles/2007/06/14/venezuela_may_buy_russian_submarines/

Amurs to follow? :doh:

[AntEater]

Well, here's a new boogieman for Tom Clancy and the likes!
:)
Having submarines and knowing how to operate them are two seperate things. From personal experience, I was less than impressed with latin american navies but I have no experience with the Venezuelan navy, though. Only exception was Argentina, they seemed much more professional than the average to me.
Most latin american armed forces problems lie within the semi-aristocratic structure of those forces: to be short; officers are white, soldiers are indios. It might be that Chavez's "bolivarian revolution" actually turned the armed forces into a far more effective force, as the white "old money" families from which latin american officers come have lost much influence in Venezuela.
On the other hand, a navy tends to be conservative and socialist revolutions have a tendency to leave a navy in shambles (while often actually originating in a navy :D).
I often hear about weapons purchases but I would be far more interested if and how Chavez has changed the Venezuelan armed forces from a typical latin american aristocratic coup and parade force into a cuban style people's army.
But with such drastic changes, both in equipment from american to russian as well as in social composition, I don't expect the Venezuelan armed forces to be really effective right now.
In 10 years or so however, it might be another story.

[Officerpuppy]

Wonder if other South American countries will raise an eyebrow like Peru and Chile which have pretty good navies I think.

[XabbaRus]

I remember Andy Macnab's book about his time in the SAS when they went to Colunbia to train anti-narc specops and when it came to weapons they tried to carry as much as they could with bandlearoes and revolvers al over the place like the wild west.

[Oberon]

I remember Andy Macnab's book about his time in the SAS when they went to Colunbia to train anti-narc specops and when it came to weapons they tried to carry as much as they could with bandlearoes and revolvers al over the place like the wild west.

Wonder if they'll try and weld extra launchers to the Kilo? Just one big front mass of torpedo tubes...hell, one of those torpedoes has got to hit something, surely? :lol:

Either that or they'll hire a Taepo from the DPRK and try and convert the Kilo into an SSB by welding a launch tube to its conning tower. :rotfl:

[Heibges]

I thought kilos came from South America? Oh, we're talking about submarines! :lol:

[NefariousKoel]

I thought kilos came from South America? Oh, we're talking about submarines! :lol:

It's a breakthrough in exporting goods! Underwater!

[bookworm_020]

I thought kilos came from South America? Oh, we're talking about submarines! :lol:

Same thought here as well;) I thought they had enough Kilo's already! Guess you can't have too many!:rotfl:

[GakunGak]

I thought kilos came from South America? Oh, we're talking about submarines! :lol:

It's a breakthrough in exporting goods! Underwater!
:rotfl: :rotfl:
Good one!:up:

[XabbaRus]

Has anyone read the article in the Guardian from front page of subsim.

what the hell does that "independent defence analyst" Pavel Felgenhauer on about.

Pavel Felgenhauer, an independent military analyst, said: "In the submarine world, it's the equivalent of a Lada. It's non-nuclear, runs on diesel-electric, and has a snorkel. Russia simply doesn't have the technology to produce modern torpedoes."

And before that "based on a model the Germans were using in WWII" Yea if it were a bunch of Foxtrots. The Kilo might not be the best diesel sub but to write it off is stupid.
I am pretty sure the Russians are quite capable of making modern torpedos. Whether they sell them abroad is a different matter.

[Steel_Tomb]

Well IIRC the Russians have the Shykval (sp?) or something, it extends fins to reduce drag in the water and is super fast so that nothing can stop it. Its a carrier killer!

[Kapitan]

Russians only export the 53 series of torpedos abroad the skhval has never been up for full export but has been on show in forign countries there was an export one designed but never made a hit.

A kilo is still as deadly as the next nuclear sub for a start its armed and run by a country of people hence why its a threat.

[NefariousKoel]

Has anyone read the article in the Guardian from front page of subsim.

what the hell does that "independent defence analyst" Pavel Felgenhauer on about.

Pavel Felgenhauer, an independent military analyst, said: "In the submarine world, it's the equivalent of a Lada. It's non-nuclear, runs on diesel-electric, and has a snorkel. Russia simply doesn't have the technology to produce modern torpedoes."
And before that "based on a model the Germans were using in WWII" Yea if it were a bunch of Foxtrots. The Kilo might not be the best diesel sub but to write it off is stupid.
I am pretty sure the Russians are quite capable of making modern torpedos. Whether they sell them abroad is a different matter.

LOL.

It's The Guardian. What do you expect? Accuracy? :rotfl:

[AntEater]

Isnt wrong per se, as basically all postwar diesel submarines are based on the type XXI.
But I have the feeling they confused Venezuela's existing type 209 subs with the Kilos.
Type 209s are really a mixture of design features of type XXI and smaller postwar german subs, which are in turn based on designs made during wartime (type XXX and such).

Regarding supercavitating torpedoes, while it definitely is rocket science (rocket driven) a lot of countries are experimenting with them and the russians do not have a monopoly on the technology, they just have the first operational model.

[Steel_Tomb]

Hmmm... HMS Astute + supercavitating topredo = a very dead kilo :D (when it actually gets in the water lol).

[XabbaRus]

I don't think "It's the Guardian" what do you expect accuracy has anything to do with it. The Guardian is a decent paper though sometimes I read it inconjunction with the Times to get balance.

It has nothing to do with the Guardian per se but newspapers digging up these analysts who make stupid comments.

anyway I am writing them a letter.

[AntEater]

As a leftie, I like the Guardian :)
Problem with left wing media is that competence in military affairs is sadly lacking, often it seems that incompetence in military affairs is seen as a status symbol.
I though this was limited to german media, but the guardian article just proved that it is a european phenomenon.

On the other hand, right wing media often overstates military statistics and ignores other factors.
The middle ground is sadly lacking today..

[fatty]

Interesting but not alarming I don't think. Except for the Antilles, Venezuela is pretty much facing open ocean. It's not like the Persian Gulf - a true littoral situation - which has chokepoints and shallows, the kinds of places where diesel subs like the Kilo are worth their weight in gold. Transiting all around the West Indies would require a bit of snorting which nullifies the silence advantage of a diesel sub.

If it came to a conflict I bet the U.S.N. could lock them down pretty handily.

[Kapitan]

Even though for the past year the swedish gotland submarine has been giving the USN the run around?

[TLAM Strike]

Isnt wrong per se, as basically all postwar diesel submarines are based on the type XXI.
Ummm no. Subs like the Whiskey/Zulu, Romeo, and Foxtrot, and Tango class (from the Russian side) and GUPPY, and Tang/Dater class from the US Side are based on the Type XXI submarines of WWII. Submarines like the Barbel (and its Japanse bult decendents) and Kilo/Amur class are based on the Albacore design which itself is based on the Holland designs of the 1900's. But thats not so say the Technolgy of the Type XXI didn't make it in to those submarines just the design is based on something totaly diffrent.

[fatty]

Even though for the past year the swedish gotland submarine has been giving the USN the run around?

Gotland uses AIP. There is no mention of including AIP with the types 636 and 677 for Chavez.

[DAB]

I doubt AIP has much to do with Gotlands performance at all. Rather, its a modern submarine crewed by top class people.

Even an old SSK can cause havoc. British Oberons were still winning wargames against NATO surface groups into the 1990's (and those submarines were based on Type XXI's). And if what the Argentinians are claiming about their Submarines in the Falklands is even half true, then under certain conditions submarines that were refitted under the 1940/50's GUPPY programme were able to get within striking distance of a top class navy that specialised in Submarine Hunting.

I suspect that what Venezella is trying to do is deny US and other warships the ability to operate securely off their coast - which would make it difficult for the US to attempt any further coups (if it did try any in the first place and lets face it, the jurys out on that one) and in future, it would make it difficult for any embagos or sanctions regime to be maintained.

All you need is to get one of those Submarines out to sea and your oppenent is going to have to wait for your submarine to mess up, or for one of its ships to disapear. It doesn't even matter if the boat is actually there, as long as they can claim its lurking about - the US navy is going to have to undertake precautions that will inhibit its capabilities.

If I were looking to shield myself from a powerful neighbour with a capable maritime presence, I would be looking to buy submarines, and I personally wouldn't care if they were Kilo's, Foxtrots or even Type VII U-boats - as long as they are a potentual nusence, they would be doing their job

[Tchocky]

It's The Guardian. What do you expect? Accuracy? :rotfl:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=116720

So you'll probably get a proper answer, Xabba

[XabbaRus]

My letter to the Guardian


Dear editor.

I have just finished reading this article

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,,2103383,00.html

My comments concerning the accuracy of some of the statements in particular these two:

“Military experts said today that the diesel-powered submarines sold by Russia to Venezuela were no match for the US's nuclear fleet, and were based on a model used by the Germans during the second world war.”

Followed by

“Pavel Felgenhauer, an independent military analyst, said: "In the submarine world, it's the equivalent of a Lada. It's non-nuclear, runs on diesel-electric, and has a snorkel. Russia simply doesn't have the technology to produce modern torpedoes."

As an enthusiast of military technology in particular Soviet/Russian equipment and with a particular interest in submarines I have to disagree with both these comments.

The first paragraph patently ignores the fact that nuclear submarines of the US fleet perform a different role to a diesel submarine being primarily designed for deep ocean blue water operations though the new Virginia class has more emphasis in littoral operations. However there are only a handful in the fleet at this time. The 688i which is the most numerous is not as capable in littoral or brown water operations which is where a Kilo class submarine is designed to and would be a operated.

Put side by side on pure statistics the current crop of American nuclear submarines would come out the clear winner being faster and more heavily armed and not restricted in range beyond the endurance of the crews food. However when you look at where the Kilo class will be used and the tactics that could be involved the advantage shifts more toward the Kilo.

Being a diesel submarine it is restricted in range and speed compared to a nuclear submarine, however in the littoral environment the Kilo would be used as a highly mobile intelligent mine. Running on its batteries at very low speed (approx 2 to 3 knots) in the shallow waters it would be very difficult for US sonar to detect and track from significant range hence forcing US assets to come dangerously close to the Kilo. The Kilo on the other hand if equipped with the current Russian sonar might have a better than evens chance in detecting a US submarine and engaging. A diesel electric submarine can also switch off its motors and drift making no noise at all. Nuclear powered submarines do not have this luxury. Even at 0 knots pumps are required to circulate coolant around the reactor thus producing noise which could be detectable. It would also be envisaged that Kilo class submarines would be used more in an anti-shipping role should US surface forces approach too close or war is declared. There are many incidents on record of US carrier groups losing the carrier to a diesel class submarine during exercises.

Secondly the Kilo class was designed and constructed during the 80’s. It in no way resembles a German World War II submarine. That would be the Project 641 Foxtrot which closer resembles a Type VII submarine of the German navy.

Pavel Felgenhauer’s comments are disingenuous and completely unhelpful. They state the obvious. Apart from the UK, Russia, France, the US and China the rest of the world’s navies operate on the whole diesel electric submarines of some form or another. They will all of course have snorkels. A couple of navies operate AIP or air independent propulsion based subs but they are in the minority. In fact Australia which operates the Collins class SSK has eschewed AIP in favour of diesel-electric due to its overall benefits compared to AIP. The Australians success rate in exercises with the Collins class against US carrier fleets is famously positive having several times “sunk” the American carrier.

Finally I would like to point out that the US Navy has leased the Swedish Gotland SSK and crew in order to train its pacific fleet submariners in the art of combating quiet diesel submarines. Considering that this has been primarily due to China building up its SSK force which its most modern are Kilo class submarines demonstrates the US Navy’s concern about this submarine as it is the type it will most likely encounter in a conflict (Iran also operates 3 Kilos in the gulf). The fact that Venezuela will have a decent submarine is enough of a deterrent, as long as the US navy is concerned that there is a sub out there it will limit its options should there be any blockade or attempted operation.

I include the following websites with good information on the Kilo class SSK.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/877.htm

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/kilo877/

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/kilo/

It is my hope that when discussing matters of military equipment you could do actual leg work on the kit in question. The information is out there.

Yours sincerely

Benedict Kent


Any spelling mistakes were corrected before I hit send.