Any hope for shallow water victim?

[Nuoz]

Is being hunt by Destroyers + shallow waters = sure death? Any brilhant tactics to get out of sight? I've managed before but not in 40m waters. I love the challenge though. Almost got out o their search pattern once. But then "We're being pinged, sir" hehe. They seem to radio others to the hunt too. I've tried going at 1 knot only but so far it proved as good as 2 knots. Even if they don't ear you, they ping you. This is why i love the GWX, it made this game accurate and challenging! I'll pick SH3 GWX over SH4 as it is now anyday!

[Thniper]

I never escaped such situation alive. Happened to me twice.:down:
So, always bear in mind:
"Stay out of shallow waters!" - if you wanna live long...:know:

Happy hunting!:arrgh!:

[melnibonian]

Early in the war you might get away if the DD crew is green. As the years go by though if you get caught in shallow waters you will die. One way to avoid the depth charges is to try to position yourself in the Destroyer's blid side (its back). Also try to use bolds (if you have them) and as soon as they're lunched go at ahead flank for 10-20 seconds. After than it's silent running again. That should help you avoid the sonar pings and head for deep waters.

Good Luck

[Captain Nemo]

Not necessarily. I got detected in less than 40m of water and took quite a hammering. Constantly getting pinged and depth charged. Took quite a bit of flooding and hit the ocean floor hard causing more damage. In fact I thought I was a goner. I had to disengage silent running to make repairs in order to get off the seabed and try and creep away, which I eventually did. So U-51 lives on to fight another day, I'm pleased to say. This was in March 1940, which was probably in my favour due to the convoy escorts not being as good as they were later in the war.

Nemo

[Sebbe02]

How many are there? If there aren't too many, my advice would be:

torp the suckers!!!:arrgh!:

It works. They usually circle around you, and quite close too. Just set up a torp, preferably a magnetic keel shot, and look in the radio room to find where they are. If they come behind the stern/in front of the bow, quickly raise the scope and loose the torp!!!
It works with T1 (but you have to be really close) and T2 (bit more difficult to aim).

Another tactic is going ahead flank, and luring them behind you. If their behind you, heading the same course as you, you can sink them with a stern keel shot. It's being discussed somewhere on the forum.

I hope it helps for you!:p

[DrMilton]

What happened to all that stuff about "...ASDIC is not that efficient in shallow waters":hmm: ??

[Brag]

U-Boats were built for deep water!

[Indiana_Jones]

U-Boats were built for deep water!

Just not too deep lol

-Indy

[Kpt. Lehmann]

What happened to all that stuff about "...ASDIC is not that efficient in shallow waters":hmm: ??

Hydrophones work just fine in shallow water though... and "not that effective" doesn't mean that they wouldn't try to use ASDIC.

[DrMilton]

and "not that effective" doesn't mean that they wouldn't try to use ASDIC.


Sure thing... but would they be successful? At least enough to leave me down there forever...? :dead:

[Jimbuna]

The fundamental rule has got to be: Stay in deep water as much as possible :arrgh!:

[CapZap1970]

Just hit the seabed gently, very gently and turn everything off. Worked for me a couple of times. Of course it must be done before you get detected. Later when I get home I will post a couple of screenshots. :up:
CapZap

[Captain Nemo]

Just hit the seabed gently, very gently and turn everything off. Worked for me a couple of times. Of course it must be done before you get detected. Later when I get home I will post a couple of screenshots. :up:
CapZap

But how do you get your u-boat to stay on the bottom? I find that at all stop my boat starts to slowly rise (unless I'm taking damage and flooding).

Nemo

[Jimbuna]

Just hit the seabed gently, very gently and turn everything off. Worked for me a couple of times. Of course it must be done before you get detected. Later when I get home I will post a couple of screenshots. :up:
CapZap

But how do you get your u-boat to stay on the bottom? I find that at all stop my boat starts to slowly rise (unless I'm taking damage and flooding).

Nemo

So punch a few small holes in your hull then :lol: :up:

[CapZap1970]

Just hit the seabed gently, very gently and turn everything off. Worked for me a couple of times. Of course it must be done before you get detected. Later when I get home I will post a couple of screenshots. :up:
CapZap

But how do you get your u-boat to stay on the bottom? I find that at all stop my boat starts to slowly rise (unless I'm taking damage and flooding).

Nemo
The best way is to manually trim your depth a1 1 knot speed for a very brief period of time, and the cut engines again, and so on, and so on. It's quite tedious, but it works. :up:
CapZap

[CapZap1970]

Just hit the seabed gently, very gently and turn everything off. Worked for me a couple of times. Of course it must be done before you get detected. Later when I get home I will post a couple of screenshots. :up:
CapZap

But how do you get your u-boat to stay on the bottom? I find that at all stop my boat starts to slowly rise (unless I'm taking damage and flooding).

Nemo

So punch a few small holes in your hull then :lol: :up:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Sorry for the double post, but this just came in as I was typing
CapZap

[MENTAT]

..torp the suckers!!!:arrgh!:

It works. They usually circle around you, and quite close too. Just set up a torp, preferably a magnetic keel shot, and look in the radio room to find where they are. If they come behind the stern/in front of the bow, quickly raise the scope and loose the torp!!!
It works with T1 (but you have to be really close) and T2 (bit more difficult to aim)...

So what has happened to the "arming range of torpedoes" ?

You cant send a fish closer than 300m. And in 300m, a "destroyer" is almost an impossible shot for their hi speed & all time manuevering sweeps!

[MENTAT]

Just hit the seabed gently, very gently and turn everything off. Worked for me a couple of times. Of course it must be done before you get detected. Later when I get home I will post a couple of screenshots. :up:
CapZap

I tried this before. Just laying dead silent at the seabed. ... always been detected!

My logic says, you cant be detected as you become a single body with seabed? But it doesnt work :down:

[Sebbe02]

don't overestimate distances, mentat.

and it's exactly due to the close distance that there high speed and manoevrability may just not be good enough.

Anyway, it's a last hope tactic. But if you're caught in shallow waters, and you here the other destroyers coming, you may need that last hope.

[danmir]

I have this same problem, shallow waters are just death for me at the moment. I have read some good suggestions on the boards here and mean to try them at my next unavoidable shallow encounter:
1) if its just one DD, and you hear the active pinging, they are not being passive, so crank up the speed and try and get some distance
2) Likewise, if they are not pinging be silent
3) if you are being pinged, show them your narrowest aspect so they get a smaller return (point bow or stern towards them)
4) try and take advantage of their baffles. From what I gather, ADSIC only applies about +/- 45 to 60 degrees off the DD bow, so if you get farther off than that, you "should" be safe. Also, I think DD passive listening applies +/- 135 degrees off their bow, so get in the rear quarter and you are invisible.
5) ADSIC range is limited to "only" 1-2.5 km (longer later in the war, closer earlier), so if you can spend some time in the baffles at high speed, maybe you can get out of this range.


Some other points:
1) I'm think I'm getting too jumpy and turning too much trying to evade my enemy, ending up in not much distance made. Next time I plan to keep a cool head, and plot on my map contact updates and my position as much as possible. This is so I can get a better idea of my enemy's course and more importantly, see how long I have traveled down a course, so I don't end up turning before any real distance has been made.

2) Sitting on the bottom has not worked for me at all. You would think that it would be difficult to distinguish the sea bottom clutter return from a sub since they are about the same height, but in my experience enemy destroyers will.

3) I don't really understand the damage control section, so its not clear to me what the effects are :doh:. I did find out at one point though, losing your compressor seems to be about the worst thing that can happen, without it I seemed to just gradually sink. And in if I moved I seemed to be taking more damage from scraping on the sea floor :oops:

[maillemaker]

Likewise, I have never had success sitting on the bottom. Without fail they drop charges right on me and that's the end.

I think back to that line from "The Matrix":

"You see an agent, you do what we do. Run. You run your ass off."

[headcase]

The only way I've ever survived something like that was to send 'em down. Bait the poor fools into coming at you dead on your bow or stern. Clear yor TDC and lock scope. At @ 500m they should be commited to a DC run and you can ram an eel right down her throat and make the nasty tin can choke on it. :rock: Just don't miss. Makes for a very bad day at work.

[WolfOfCampscapel]

Heh. On my second patrol, still in 1939, I evaded pursuit with 15m water depth to work with. No idea how they managed to lose track of me, I should be mangled wreckage...

Nowadays in '40, with a bigger boat, I wouldn't dare try.

[Jimbuna]

Sitting on the bottom does not afford you any advantage :nope:
Once/if detected your best chance is staying on the move :yep:

[MENTAT]

don't overestimate distances, mentat.

and it's exactly due to the close distance that there high speed and manoevrability may just not be good enough.

Anyway, it's a last hope tactic. But if you're caught in shallow waters, and you here the other destroyers coming, you may need that last hope.
Not an answer to my call;

once again:
what has happened to the "arming range of torpedoes" ?

[MENTAT]

I have this same problem, shallow waters are just death for me at the moment. I have read some good suggestions on the boards here and mean to try them at my next unavoidable shallow encounter:
1) if its just one DD, and you hear the active pinging, they are not being passive, so crank up the speed and try and get some distance
2) Likewise, if they are not pinging be silent
3) if you are being pinged, show them your narrowest aspect so they get a smaller return (point bow or stern towards them)
4) try and take advantage of their baffles. From what I gather, ADSIC only applies about +/- 45 to 60 degrees off the DD bow, so if you get farther off than that, you "should" be safe. Also, I think DD passive listening applies +/- 135 degrees off their bow, so get in the rear quarter and you are invisible.
5) ADSIC range is limited to "only" 1-2.5 km (longer later in the war, closer earlier), so if you can spend some time in the baffles at high speed, maybe you can get out of this range.


Very nice summary! I will stick it to my monitor pal! :up:

[Sebbe02]

sorry mentat, It should be: don't underestimate distances.
I'm just saying that i've noticed that you often have the necessary 300m, unless of course they're right on top of you (but then it wouldn't be wise to stick up the periscope, would it?:D )

[MENTAT]

if anyone was able to hit a destroyer within 300m sweeping all around you drawing circles all the time with hi speed... please respond. cause i have never managed nor winessed such a thing!

[CapZap1970]

Ok Kaleuns:
Here is the process of hiting the seabed very gently, I hope the picsare sharp enough.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t1/capzap1970/screenshots/1.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t1/capzap1970/screenshots/2.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t1/capzap1970/screenshots/3.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t1/capzap1970/screenshots/Touchdown.jpg

[Hakahura]

Top pics CapZap1970.
Never tried bottoming to evade myself. Moving targets harder to hit and all that stuff.

MENTAT so far as I know you'll never hit anything 300m or less the torps need that far to arm. If the DD thats close your only hope of killing him is an acoustic torp.
These never seem to travel directly to the target and will have time to arm.
best just to not get detected in the first place. of course sometimes you just can't help it.

[Hadrys]

Hmmm I managed few times to loose the chase without even a bomb near just by hitting the floor hard! It was in quite shallow waters like 60-80 so after hearing a DD coming over me and dropping bombs another Alarm and it finishes on the bottom because I forgot that I have only 30m left... So I hit the bottom and have slight damage but it sucks me in. I can't move so turn off the engines, fix urgent damages and be quiet... I works, they loss my track completely. I wonder if it would work the same way if I would sit on the bottom gentle. Time compression shows near land state in my case... May 1940.

[MENTAT]

MENTAT so far as I know you'll never hit anything 300m or less the torps need that far to arm. If the DD thats close your only hope of killing him is an acoustic torp.
These never seem to travel directly to the target and will have time to arm.
best just to not get detected in the first place. of course sometimes you just can't help it.

EXACTLY.

You hear that Sebbe02?

[Nuoz]

I didnt manage to survive even in 1940. I loaded a previous game (undetected still) and managed to get to deeper waters avoiding detection. Note you are completely invisible if you are submerged, scopes down and stop. So if any warship would come close i would stop and wait till it passed me. doing this is rasoably easy undetected but i dont think i'll go to any shallow water port soon. I sank 20 000 tons while in the port but was not time efficient (specially in real life time) as you need to micro play your way out.

[Steel_Tomb]

Its very hard in anything bigger than a type II uboat, but is possible. I got caught by a DD raiding a harbour in very shallow waters, got DC'd once or twice and did take some damage but if you do the wiggle waggle you can eventually get out of its grip. I think I was lucky but stick at it and keep you wits about you and it is possible.

Btw does the tactic of "playing dead" on the seabed actually work in GWX? IIRC the last time I tried it they dropped DC's right on my head resulting in instant death!

Note: I did this at the start of the war in '39, all I can say is RIP if you try this any later than 1940 lol

[Sebbe02]

Mentat, relax man!:doh:

I was just suggesting an idea. I wasn't sure if I ever tried it myself, sure have played with the tought, but I don't know if I ever tried it.

The other tactic works for sure, that I am certain.

[minute]

if anyone was able to hit a destroyer within 300m sweeping all around you drawing circles all the time with hi speed... please respond. cause i have never managed nor winessed such a thing!
Within 300m no, torpedo will not arm. But it's possible to a swing around a DD and get a shoot from about 350m. Let the DD run a perpendicular pass above you somewhere at 50-60m depth. As soon as it releases depthcharges go flank speed, turn full rudder towards its path and order periscope depth. By the time you go up to 20m the sub starts levelling - raise the scope and turn engines full back - this will give you better separation from the DD to get more than 300m. Remember to switch rudder when going backwards. The DD will appear at about 60degrees offset, and torpedo heading almost head on. I don't think it's feasible to get a shot without automatic targeting - never been able to do it manually. Remember to set torpedo to fast, 0.5m running depth and open the tube before firing, you have about 3 to 5 seconds to get your shot.

[IrischKapitan]

Ive raided Scapa Flow a couple of times in '39 (found an aux. cruiser there :rock:)
and found a really easy way of escaping DDs is to stick really close to the coast and when the DD lines up for a DC attack, theres a good chance that they will run aground.

Bring up the scope and ready stern tube and one less DD on you. Havnt tried this in 40-41 though. I now have over 70,000 GRT to my name and its only November '39

[johnno74]

Sitting on the bottom does not afford you any advantage :nope:
Once/if detected your best chance is staying on the move :yep:
This is realistic. Active sonar (known as ASDIC in WW2) works because sound waves tend to be reflected when they hit something with a different density - the larger the density change, the stronger the reflection.

So yes, the sonar reflects off the seafloor - but the density change going between the sea and the seafloor is much smaller than the density change between your u-boats pressure hull and the air inside it.

This means your u-boat acts amost like a mirror for active sonar - while the return from the seafloor isn't nearly as strong.

Sitting on the bottom will reduce the noise produced by your sub as there are no motors, propellors or pumps running, making you almost impossible to pick up on passive sonar (hydrophones), but makes no difference at all to active sonar.

[tcorken]

In particularly shallow water I've often evaded being sunk because the DDs almost blow their sterns off with their own depth charges. I believe they have set the timing much too early and soon enough the DC sailors are flying through the air on their way to heaven :) If they survive, they continue to drop non existant DCs and the DD is pretty harmless after that. They still have to be shaken off though in order to surface. BTW this is with GWX.

[MENTAT]

So yes, the sonar reflects off the seafloor - but the density change going between the sea and the seafloor is much smaller than the density change between your u-boats pressure hull and the air inside it.

This means your u-boat acts amost like a mirror for active sonar - while the return from the seafloor isn't nearly as strong.


Hmm, so boats sitting on seabed and evading DD's successfully in the movies are total crap then?

[Canovaro]

In particularly shallow water I've often evaded being sunk because the DDs almost blow their sterns off with their own depth charges....

me too, but only in real shallow water. Otherwise, move and try to get in the dd's back. And alway have a torps ready for a quick shot. But you have to be really lucky to hit something.

I managed to escape 4 destroyers and frigates in very shallow water near the canadian coast in stock SH3. The just lost me somewhere after a wild chase.

[johnno74]

So yes, the sonar reflects off the seafloor - but the density change going between the sea and the seafloor is much smaller than the density change between your u-boats pressure hull and the air inside it.

This means your u-boat acts amost like a mirror for active sonar - while the return from the seafloor isn't nearly as strong.

Hmm, so boats sitting on seabed and evading DD's successfully in the movies are total crap then?

Basically, yeah :D

As I said, sitting on the bottom makes you pretty much invisible to passive sonar (hydrophones) as it eliminates all mechanical noise, but it doesn't help you much against active sonar (ASDIC).

Sonar fish-finders work pretty much because the sonar signal bounces off the fish's swim bladder (an air sac inside a fish that it uses to control boyancy).

BOLD decoys deployed on u-boats work by releasing a mass of bubbles that creates a return on active sonar that looks like a u-boat.

And an ultrasound imaging machine is basically sonar, just at a different frequency. The image on the screen is basically showing the density of whatever is underneath the transponder.

[abel29a]

Just got back from a harrowing mid-'42 IXC patrol to New York. BdU, in its infinite wisdom, sent me to CA28, which is all shallows just east of New York. I managed to sneak in to the square and set myself up guarding the entrance to the bay leading to the harbour, when a Large Cargo crossed my bow. With the sneering command of "Be more aggresive" ringing in my ears I dared not fail to shoot, and sink she did.

What followed was a 15 hour escape in 12-15m deep water with DD's and torpedo boats going ape**** around me. Going silent I managed to evade most of them for quite a while until a Clemson stumbled upon me, and immediately started pinging me. This led to a second DD approaching, and my big, hulking boat, barely concelead beneath the waves seemed doomed. I had six torps remaining tough, and through desperate manouvering and very poor marksmanship I finally nailed the Clemson with the last of the six.

But the other DD was still on me, doing several DC runs. The trick that worked best for me, apart from maintaining a small angle to him, running fast when he was pinging and constantly turning away from his charges was a liberal deployment of BOLDs. Firing off two BOLDs I went flank, turned so that the BOLD formed a barrier between me and the DD and set off at oblique angles in respect to my initial course. After doing this four or five times the DD ended up attacking my latest BOLD drop for several minutes - allowing me to flank off to reach the critical separation I needed to loose him.

So all in all, 1 DD sunk, 1 evaded, survived 3-4 DC runs directly over my position with 100% integrity remaining - still can't beleive my luck :) (GWX 1.03 100% realism btw)

[Nuoz]

I am playing in 85% (contact updates on,100% in GWX for some reason) I only use the contacts update because its enormously time consuming to manualy plot and very difficult to get an accurate range with the periscope/UZO.. Although, this means no instant id of a target, no AoB, no speed. Just a generic description like destroyer, patrol ship, etc if you get a visual or warship, marchant if you are using your hydrophones. If i wat to shoot i need to enter the time of shoot distance (range), calculate the AoB for each target, Jim's tools (included in stock and GWX) will only help you calculating the AoB if you are aprox 90 of an incoming target.
Then you need to plot, count one minute at least and plot again for a speed value (using the charts). Real life Captains and people who really go 100% still have to plot and calculate AoB based on aspect ratio and whatnot. Its very risky and prone to fail letting a valueable fish go at a 35knots incoming destroyer. I never shoot at escorts or destroyers.
AoB, range and speed may not be important if the destroyer is coming towards you at 0º or 180º but mind the fact torpedos need 300m to arm. And the very shallow chance you have to hit an incoming bow. Maybe magnetic fish would prove better at this, but still very risky and bear the 300m to arm. Do the enemy sub hunters zig zag? I remeber that was a mandatory tactic for any human playing a DD (Destroyer Command) against human U-boats, SH2.
My point is, if you play 100%, in shallow waters, upon detection your only hope is to flank and manover until you can dive deeper.Its often better in my experience to even avoid diving for a couple minutes to gain some more ground, until the splashes in the water hit your watchmen.

[abel29a]

The DD's do indeed Zig Zag when going for final approach on a DC run. That is part of the reason I used six torps to sink one DD, the slimy bastard turned in the nick of time, everytime... Grr :)