View Full Version : Illegal immigrant labor bad or good for an economy?
Is a manual labor shortage good or bad for an economy?
One of the arguments (in the US) about the illegal Mexican immigrant controversy (about 1million illegal immigrants per year enter the US) is that they come here and are able to find work so easily because of the labor demands of our economy. We need carpenters, construction worker's, home service workers to build and provide cheap work.
... question is... so what? What IF their were no illegal immigrants to fill those positions and a relative "labor shortage" ensued. Seems like it would be good for an economy because it would drive the demand for 'artisan' and manual labor up and thus increase the wages of those positions. Increased wages means more people would pursue work in those spots (Americans) and it would help to provide more income to the less educated demographics of our society.... right?
Any budding economist/historians on the forums that can point to whether labor shortages/surplus are bad or good?
Not quite how it works.
If a labor vacuum forces wages up than exports become less profitable because they cost more to make and inflation rises. It can also cause business stagnation in some sectors as companies are forced to spend more on wages and less of development of their business. Some companies may even close if the market does not cover the cost of increased wages.
I'm not saying immigration in the US is a good thing as I know little about the US internal economy. However the assumption that forced wage increases = good for the economy is certainly not always the case.
Very, very generally speaking, a large workforce surplus is good for economies in the long term, but not always in the short term.
The ultimate cheep labor is slavery and that's why ancient Rome did so well. The next best thing is the vast amounts of cheep labor China has.
*edit* Be aware that I have simplified things very much here.
Yahoshua
06-12-07, 07:30 PM
A small labor shprtage would be good and would encourage legal immigration while ensuring that domestic Americans would not be forced out of their jobs by laborers who will be paid lower wages (which is what's happening right now).
Some people claim the economy is doing well, some that it isn't so well. In either case, if all illegal immigrants were to go back to their home countries and STAY there from today onward, there would be no crisis or shortage of manual labor.
Remember the strikes the illegals held a couple years ago? Mail was still delivered, stores were still open, carpets and floors were still cleaned, foods were still picked, everything continued as normal. Illegal immigrants are NOT essential to our economy. Even if they were, we have a healthy population of laborers and homeless here in the Unites States that would be more than willing to pick potatoes for a chance at starting onto the road for a better life.
SUBMAN1
06-12-07, 08:00 PM
It is actually terrible for the economy. Two years ago (It is worse by today), I saw the numbers out of Colorado. They spend over $1 Billion per year in support survices for illegals and nothing else. This includes everything from welfare to other state supported programs. This does not even include medical care, which is pretty much provided free for these people since they can't pay. No one could even put an estimate on this, but it rivals the states outpay, if not exceeds it.
So basically, they are killing the economy of a typical state like Colorado in which a $1 billion $ per year could be going to infrastructure to help improve the states productive growth. They are draining the medical system and forcing everyones insurance premiums through the roof. And they suck up jobs, specifically in the labor department from American workers who typically get paid more for the same job. Construction people are up in arms about these guys. An example is a contract manager can come in, hire these people, not provide insurance for them, pay them under the table so that the business doesn't have to pay tax on them, and then kick them out at the end of the day like nothing happened. How is the honest American contractor supposed to compete with this when he is constantly getting undercut for lower than his cost?
Before these illegal aliens were here, normal Americans did these jobs just fine. Life went on normal. It turns out it is actually the businesses that are at fault because they encourage it since it saves them considerable $$$ in labor costs - effectively putting normal Americans out of a job and into other fields because they can't compete - not even if they got paid the same amoutn as the mexicans - You can't pay the Americans under the table, so companies have to pay more still for the Americans ragardless.
Last but not least, Illegals have no interest into integrating into the American culture. They have no loyalty to the country, have no wish to learn more than basic English, learn anything, and I doubt they even want to stay here except to collect a paycheck and milk the system. One of the companies my father owns is a daycare business, and I've been out there to collect the money quite a few times. These Mexicans go in there, decked out in better clothes than you, and they talk about how many more children they can get because each one is a bigger welfare paycheck. The men don't want to get married to not only avoid getting a smaller welfare paycheck themsleves, but also to make sure the woman also gets a large check. The men also work the construction jobs under the table at the same time. Its all a game of money to them and they've got it worked.
Now if you integrate these people into our society, what exactly is going to change? Nothing! They will still do what they are doing, but have the threat of the gov off their back with possible deportation. They can do this stuff out in the open more. If you went as far as give them the right to vote, and all hell is going to break loose!
I could go on all day about this, but I think you can already see that Bush and his idea to let thes people stay is probably his worst idea since he has been in office. Add $10 to mine and everyone elses taxes in this country, and that should give them $3 Billion a year to deport these idiots. I think 10 years and $30 Billion should be plenty to get these people rounded up and out of our country before it is too late.
-S
One of the big themes that's always toted around regarding the American economy is the "growing disparity between the rich and the poor" in American. The divide between those that are rich and those that are poor is getting wider... so some claim. But that being said (and assuming that its true) then wouldn't one of the main causes of that widening be that influx of poor cheap laborers. If the labor market is flooded with illegal immigrants that work for nothing, and keep unskilled labor wages low, then how can the poorest demographics ever make up the difference? Seems like eliminating the competition, allowing a "labor shortage" and wages to raise would be one solution to the problem. Another way to look at it is that America absorbs 1million+ of the poorest Mexicans every year, so even if as a society we were successfully advancing 1million Americans up from the poverty line per year then it still won't make any headway because 1million+ more impoverished people just walk across the border...:dead:
I understand what your saying Letum. Businesses would face the brunt of a profit loss, and exports would decrease... but their's got to be some sortof national economic benifit to a higher paid blue collar demographic... right?
They have no loyalty to the country, have no wish to learn more than basic English, learn anything, and I doubt they even want to stay here except to collect a paycheck and milk the system. One of the companies my father owns is a daycare business, and I've been out there to collect the money quite a few times. These Mexicans go in there, decked out in better clothes than you, and they talk about how many more children they can get because each one is a bigger welfare paycheck. The men don't want to get married to not only avoid getting a smaller welfare paycheck themsleves, but also to make sure the woman also gets a large check. The men also work the construction jobs under the table at the same time. Its all a game of money to them and they've got it worked.
errr... illegal immigrants getting welfare? iirce you have to be a citizen to get welfare from what I understand.
Although must speak positive, If the US.wants to be a good neighbor to Mexico,they first must be teach that one hand washes the other concept. That a man,to be trusted,must be as good as his word. Otherwise he is not even cheep labor,only poor trash.Borderland:down:
I swear I am no Einstien but to me it seems to solution is to make Mexico more "Profitable/or modern or whatever" it is that drives immigrants here...I am ashamed frankly at the lack of consolidated efforts by the US and Canada to secure North America as the most powerful continent in the world....we have the labor, we have resources....I don't understand why it is not realized that to move forward we can not move backwards...building a fence is ludacrus and insane and just retarded and a waste of money.....people want Pepsi Cola, New Homes,Safe Communites just as all humans do....seems to me the thing would be to turn Mexico into the place where people want to be and deal with the security issue from a North American perspective not an American one...last time I looked Canada and Mexico were democracies....we need to ensure that and foster it and reward it....otherwise what example are we setting....damn a wall....Tear Down The WALL....
.seems to me the thing would be to turn Mexico into the place where people want to be
Just how do you propose to that? By force? Should we go down there and round up all the crooked Mexican politicans, judges and administators and impose our laws and standards on them?
SUBMAN1
06-13-07, 02:11 PM
errr... illegal immigrants getting welfare? iirce you have to be a citizen to get welfare from what I understand.
You do, but as you know, it is not hard for these people to get the proper documentation to support the welfare paperwork. Some of them will even ask what Social Security number you want, because they have 3 in their wallet.
-S
SUBMAN1
06-13-07, 02:13 PM
Although must speak positive, If the US.wants to be a good neighbor to Mexico,they first must be teach that one hand washes the other concept. That a man,to be trusted,must be as good as his word. Otherwise he is not even cheep labor,only poor trash.Borderland:down:
Yeah - try going into Mexico illegally and see what happens! That would be the first day of your own created hell! Instant prison. Beat to hell and back. Held for ransom even. Seems both sides should treat each other equally in my opinion!
-S
.seems to me the thing would be to turn Mexico into the place where people want to be
Just how do you propose to that? By force? Should we go down there and round up all the crooked Mexican and impose our laws and standards on them?
That is a cop out...
America should be spending at least 3 times as much time/money with it's neighbors than it is doing with other parts of the world....Canada and Mexico have a direct and immediate effect on what goes on here...
No need for force they are democracies already....yet ideas and ways need to be looked at to try to strengthen not "Build a Wall" against your neighbor....we need to "Deal" with it...period.
Mexico for as long as I have lived in Arizona has been to the south of me and it is not going anywhere soon me thinks...I have always looked at Mexico and Canada as friendly neighbors...possibly Canada and the U.S. should be hanging out with Mexico more than they are....Considering them an Equal and respecting them as a soverign nation that has much to offer instead of a just a nation of poor people or some B.S. like that...
Hey believe me I live in a border state here and see and work with lots of Mexican people.They are a proud and hard working people who have my respect.Times change...lifestyles change, the politics need to change as well and what worked yesterday obviously is no longer working but building a wall is absurd and reminds me of 1950's 60's cold war thinking....if it does'nt fit into some category or conform somehow...building a wall and trying to ignore the problem has proven not a wise course of action.I know you do not believe all Mexican politicans, judges and administators are corrupt and if you do I believe you are wrong.
.seems to me the thing would be to turn Mexico into the place where people want to be
Just how do you propose to that? By force? Should we go down there and round up all the crooked Mexican and impose our laws and standards on them?
That is a cop out...
America should be spending at least 3 times as much time/money with it's neighbors than it is doing with other parts of the world....Canada and Mexico have a direct and immediate effect on what goes on here...
No need for force they are democracies already....yet ideas and ways need to be looked at to try to strengthen not "Build a Wall" against your neighbor....we need to "Deal" with it...period.
Mexico for as long as I have lived in Arizona has been to the south of me and it is not going anywhere soon me thinks...I have always looked at Mexico and Canada as friendly neighbors...possibly Canada and the U.S. should be hanging out with Mexico more than they are....Considering them an Equal and respecting them as a soverign nation that has much to offer instead of a just a nation of poor people or some B.S. like that...
Hey believe me I live in a border state here and see and work with lots of Mexican people.They are a proud and hard working people who have my respect.Times change...lifestyles change, the politics need to change as well and what worked yesterday obviously is no longer working but building a wall is absurd and reminds me of 1950's 60's cold war thinking....if it does'nt fit into some category or conform somehow...building a wall and trying to ignore the problem has proven not a wise course of action.I know you do not believe all Mexican politicans, judges and administators are corrupt and if you do I believe you are wrong.
Well we're not building a wall along the Canadian border, nor is there a movement there to annex parts of the US (Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and parts of California) and nor is the wall to keep people in, ala the Berlin wall.
Seriously, throwing money at a problem is not going to solve anything and anything else we do is going to be seen by them as interfering in the soverignty of a foreign nation, so what do you expect we do?
Heibges
06-13-07, 04:58 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/12/Dobbs.June13/index.html
Lou pretty much hammers the President. President Bush seems beseiged on all fronts at this point.
And now we have 20,000,013 Illegal Immigrants to round up.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/13/world/main2925436.shtml
FIREWALL
06-13-07, 05:36 PM
Where will we get are lettuce from ? :hmm:
I don't even do my own yard work.:nope:
Heibges
06-13-07, 06:40 PM
It's true that our agriculture system is messed up.
First we had the creation of "suburbia" after WWII, reversing a trend of hundreds of years of urbanization. It is sick how much rich farmland we have destroyed.
Then the loss of the small family farm, and the growth of the large corporate farms definitely did not help.
On small farms, you make your kids and your neighbors kids do the harvesting for free.
I'm not sure who they would get to do the harvesting in the Southern California.
And you don't just wake up one day and decide to be farmer. You are born into it, and this is another reason the loss of so many family farms was so sad.
Yahoshua
06-13-07, 06:48 PM
......nor is there a movement there to annex parts of the US (Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and parts of California).....
http://www.rense.com/general41/annex.htm (Read the sources on this one)
http://www.americanpatrol.com/ADS/ReconquistaReelectio970719.html
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27941
http://www.upi.com/inc/view.php?StoryID=12062002-011544-4757r
http://www.illegalaliens.us/aztlan.htm
......nor is there a movement there to annex parts of the US (Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and parts of California).....
http://www.rense.com/general41/annex.htm (Read the sources on this one)
http://www.americanpatrol.com/ADS/ReconquistaReelectio970719.html
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27941
http://www.upi.com/inc/view.php?StoryID=12062002-011544-4757r
http://www.illegalaliens.us/aztlan.htm
So you are trying to tell me that 38 million Mexican illegal immigrants in America are here and part of a huge conspiracy to take over?
Why are they coming here in the first place? Answer those questions and figure out a way to bring Mexico up to speed seems like a better answer...To assume this can't be done is why we are failing...seems to me Canada,America and Mexico need to get on the same page.
my 50cents worth...
You have to take away the reasons why people want to come here to solve the immigration problem.Jobs...better wages,etc etc....why would anyone want to move away if they were making good money,had access to good health care...etc etc...save for a change of pace then...
I am pretty much to the point of thinking you guys are silly to even think these problems can or will be solved by man...they are too big for any one human being to tackle...polution,starvation,disease,...it is spirialing down the drain already and beyond repair by man. And it is bacause of the greed of man,the selfishness.Men hate the light.
any chess players here?
can you see that far down the road yet?
Only one will or can restore order and it ain't gonna be a one world government either although that pitch is coming too...
PeriscopeDepth
06-13-07, 11:17 PM
......nor is there a movement there to annex parts of the US (Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and parts of California).....
http://www.rense.com/general41/annex.htm (Read the sources on this one)
http://www.americanpatrol.com/ADS/ReconquistaReelectio970719.html
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27941
http://www.upi.com/inc/view.php?StoryID=12062002-011544-4757r
http://www.illegalaliens.us/aztlan.htm
So you are trying to tell me that 38 million Mexican illegal immigrants in America are here and part of a huge conspiracy to take over?
Why are they coming here in the first place? Answer those questions and figure out a way to bring Mexico up to speed seems like a better answer...To assume this can't be done is why we are failing...seems to me Canada,America and Mexico need to get on the same page.
my 50cents worth...
You have to take away the reasons why people want to come here to solve the immigration problem.Jobs...better wages,etc etc....why would anyone want to move away if they were making good money,had access to good health care...etc etc...save for a change of pace then...
\
:up:
PD
Yahoshua
06-13-07, 11:18 PM
So you are trying to tell me that 38 million Mexican illegal immigrants in America are here and part of a huge conspiracy to take over?
I'm not sure how many illegal immigrants are here in the U.S. but yes, they DO want a good portion of the Southwest U.S. to be annexed into part of Mexico.
Why are they coming here in the first place? Answer those questions and figure out a way to bring Mexico up to speed seems like a better answer...To assume this can't be done is why we are failing...seems to me Canada,America and Mexico need to get on the same page.
You have to take away the reasons why people want to come here...
They come here to vote, they come here for free social services, they come here for our jobs, and best of all is that they're not even punished for breaking the law!!
And the ways we can get them to stop coming is to completely close the southern border, re-institute immigration caps, deport ALL of the illegal immigrants that are here in the U.S., punish employers with 5+ years jail time for every illegal they hire along with the seizure of their business, revoke the 14th Amendment to eliminate "Anchor Babies" (there are no slaves to repatriate anyway), and revoke the citizenship of every anchor baby born on U.S. soil.
That will ultimately stop illegal immigration for good.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/05/getting_the_government_the_thi.html
PeriscopeDepth
06-13-07, 11:30 PM
And the ways we can get them to stop coming is to completely close the southern border, re-institute immigration caps, deport ALL of the illegal immigrants that are here in the U.S., punish employers with 5+ years jail time for every illegal they hire along with the seizure of their business, revoke the 14th Amendment to eliminate "Anchor Babies" (there are no slaves to repatriate anyway), and revoke the citizenship of every anchor baby born on U.S. soil.
That will ultimately stop illegal immigration for good.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/05/getting_the_government_the_thi.html
No. Nothing will stop a 20-1 wage difference attracting workers. There will always be a way to get through as long as there is such a reward. Short of minefields and shoot on sight(and this will never, ever happen) you just can't shut down the southern border. And you neglect a significant source of illegal immgration: visa overstays. Not every illegal just sneaks through our porous borders, it's quite expensive to have done properly.
I agree that employer sanctions need to be jacked way up, though. As of now they hardly exist.
The main problem with border policing now is the way politicians handle it. They will pour resources into their area so they can point to lower illegal crossover stats and leave other areas completely uncovered.
PD
I'd not be in favor of revoking anyones citizenship but no country can survive long with unrestricted immigration, especially in this day and age of ever increasing world population.
It's impossible to make Mexico a place people don't want to leave, unless we're either willing to lower our standard of living to theirs or take control of their country in order to apply our standard of living to them and neither option is acceptable.
PeriscopeDepth
06-13-07, 11:48 PM
It's impossible to make Mexico a place people don't want to leave, unless we're either willing to lower our standard of living to theirs or take control of their country in order to apply our standard of living to them and neither option is acceptable.
I dunno, maybe. But I think we should at least try. Look at how much money we've thrown into the fire in Iraq.
PD
Yahoshua
06-14-07, 12:20 AM
Yes you can shut down the southern border (barb-wire, armed patrols and a quick detection/response team system). It all depends on whether people are willing to go through with this or not. And the way things are going, U.S. citizens are going to start doing the shooting to get things done because they're fed up with the inaction of the federal and state governments on the issue.
I know several people who are more than willing to shoot any illegal they catch crossing their land, and I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't already killed a few.
And the only way that the mexicans will lose interest in coming north is for mexico to fix itself, and that really isn't our responsibility, it's the responsibility of the mexican people to do that.
PeriscopeDepth
06-14-07, 12:30 AM
Yes you can shut down the southern border (barb-wire, armed patrols and a quick detection/response team system). It all depends on whether people are willing to go through with this or not. And the way things are going, U.S. citizens are going to start doing the shooting to get things done because they're fed up with the inaction of the federal and state governments on the issue.
People are not willing to go through with this, certainly not pay for what is required. And what is required to shut down the entire border goes far beyond barbed wire, armed agents, and quick response. I'm pretty sure we do all three of these already. And politicians are only willing to do the bare minimum to get reelected. So I suppose, yes, in fantasy world it is possible.
I know several people who are more than willing to shoot any illegal they catch crossing their land, and I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't already killed a few.
Cool. It isn't going to be a well regulated militia that solves this problem, though. Americans can't even be bothered to vote regularly.
And the only way that the mexicans will lose interest in coming north is for mexico to fix itself, and that really isn't our responsibility, it's the responsibility of the mexican people to do that.
I'll keep this thread on topic and not argue this point to its fullest. But I will say that I think the stability of our next door neighbors is VERY important (say, more important than another certain place), as it is for any other country in the world. Lest we want to end up fixing it when things go completely to $hit.
PD
Yahoshua
06-14-07, 08:58 AM
Yes you can shut down the southern border (barb-wire, armed patrols and a quick detection/response team system). It all depends on whether people are willing to go through with this or not. And the way things are going, U.S. citizens are going to start doing the shooting to get things done because they're fed up with the inaction of the federal and state governments on the issue.
People are not willing to go through with this, certainly not pay for what is required. And what is required to shut down the entire border goes far beyond barbed wire, armed agents, and quick response. I'm pretty sure we do all three of these already. And politicians are only willing to do the bare minimum to get reelected. So I suppose, yes, in fantasy world it is possible.
It's also possible in the real world, and we barely do ANYTHING on the border, let alone enforce our immigration laws.
I know several people who are more than willing to shoot any illegal they catch crossing their land, and I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't already killed a few.
Cool. It isn't going to be a well regulated militia that solves this problem, though. Americans can't even be bothered to vote regularly.
(I didn't say that was a good thing)
And the only way that the mexicans will lose interest in coming north is for mexico to fix itself, and that really isn't our responsibility, it's the responsibility of the mexican people to do that.
I'll keep this thread on topic and not argue this point to its fullest. But I will say that I think the stability of our next door neighbors is VERY important (say, more important than another certain place), as it is for any other country in the world. Lest we want to end up fixing it when things go completely to $hit.
PD
[/quote]
Yes, but Mexico is not our brainchild, and if the mexican people aren't willing to change their government for the better our efforts will be for naught.
I agree that employer sanctions need to be jacked way up, though. As of now they hardly exist.
I believe that there is a Senator from Georgia that is supporting a state bill that will go after employers that hire illegals. But the question still is...
...what effect will it have? And if that program is adopted nationally, will we regret it?
Most people don't understand the depth of the problem. Over 1million illegals move to the US every year. At the hospital that I train, go to any floor that is being renovated and you will find 90% don't speak english (illegals). Go outside to grounds maintenance workers and its the same. The maintenance at my apartment is the same.
I went to by furniture today. At the pickup warehouse 60% of the workers only spoke spanish (illegals) and couldn't communicate except through their boss who was an Mexican that spoke English. The same happened today when my good friend hired movers. They showed up and only 1 of the 3 spoke English (illegals)...
... its is a complete taken over of the unskilled labor market. :dead:
"THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!!"
Back to the pile?
Sorry couldn't resist. :roll:
TheSatyr
06-15-07, 09:26 PM
What is sad is the state of the Education System and Emergency Room System in Southern California.
Schools are overcrowded and underfunded, Emergency Rooms are being shut down because the State can't afford to keep many of them open,yet everyone is afraid to tell the truth on why all this is happening,because as soon as someone mentions "illegal immigration" they get branded as racists. But it is the illegal immigration population in Southern California that is bringing down the infrastructure here. What makes it even worse is the arrogance of many of them in their blatant refusal to learn english...added and abetted by local Mexican-American politicians who call any attempt at an english only law to be blatantly racist.. There is even a school out here in a primarily mexican american community that teaches kids about the "reconquista" and that the Aztecs and Mayans were peaceful nations and that whites are evil warmongers who not only took their land but made up the stories about Aztec and Mayan human sacrifices.
Back in the 80s a number of Latin-American politicians held a conference in Santa Monica and they stated their goals quite clearly back then. 1)Get as many illegal immigrants into the southwest USA as possible. 2)Stonewall and try to stop any meaningful attempt at stopping illegal immigration. 3)Get the illegals into the voting rolls by any means necessary. 4)Get a Mexican-American majority throughout the Southwestern USA .5)Get more and more Mexican-Americans voted into office,especially into State Legislatures and Governorships. 6)When everything is "in place" the attempt would be made to start the reconquista of the southwest USA back into Mexico through political means...which they viewed as the long term goal...even if if took 100-200 years to do.
THAT was the stated goal of that conference. Which managed to pass under the radar of just about every news organization back then. The LA Times did a small article on it but laughed it off as the dreams of a few nutcases.
Someone mentioned that they thought if illegal immigration kept up the people might take the law into their own hands and start shooting illegals? Uhm,it's already happening in Arizona and New Mexico. Farmers shooting illegals that cross their property and there was supposedly a group in Arizona that hunted down and killed illegals. I think they caught most of those guys though.
Yea last comment on this subject...
I refuse to believe that the Mexican governmet can be likened to Iraq's fledgeling democracy...not that anyone has made this comparision but the lack of willingness to really sit down and hammer it out with Mexico seems to be the problem...
We can not "Assume" anything with them...the other solutions such as shutting down the border is ridiclous...it sends the wrong message.We need to be realistic and approach this from a different angle.
Sending them home will not work...get over it...and believe it or not I was in this camp as well but after alot of thought it is not prudent or wise to even consider this course....
What else then...humm let's see....shoot them?...mine the border?
again....this is silly and seen as such I would hope.Why not make Mexico an equal and a force to reckoned with just as America and Canada are.
I like the proverb..whosoever doth not gather together scattereth abroad.And whosoever doth not build up teareth down....really this is what you are advocating...I advocate tearing down the wall all together because there really isn't even one there anyways....
A bargin/deal/treaty/compact/accord/article...needs to be constructed between Mexico and America and I include Canada as well as we are all neighbors....I think the time is for great men to do great things....men worthy of rememberance such as Lincoln and the founding fathers of America....we need to get it right.
NefariousKoel
06-16-07, 12:04 AM
I'll share something I posted elsewhere on the subject:
I have met, worked with, had regular customers and experienced daily, (etc.) immigrants from England, Australia, Germany, Ukraine, Russia, Pakistan,Iran, India, China, Japan, Korea, Liberia, Kenya, and on and on.
They all knew the language enough to speak it, and unlike these illegal deadbeats here, they had a ****in' job and made a living like the rest of us. They were quite commendable and happy to be here.
Unlike the hordes of illegal Mexicans who show up in packs of 4 or 5 at all times of the day usually trying to pay the only legal relative of their's spanish channel satellite bill and asking me if they need ID to get a cell phone plan. Not to mention the old ones buying steaks at the grocery store with food stamps paid for by the public.
They are not in the cities, they are hiding out in the small towns. All the real immigrants were in the city when I lived there and I was none the wiser at the time to the increasing problem. The usual legal immigrants who worked for a living were in the city and I admired them for making a new life. Now that I've moved back to the middle of nowhere, I see that at least 40% of the population here is Hispanic and a good portion of those are illegals who have no intent of becoming an American, but getting freebies off the horribly run gov't and continue being Mexican.
It speaks volumes when the immigrants from Brazil, Honduras, Belize, Venezuela.. what have you... get seriously offended if you even imply that they are "Mexicans", though the real deadbeats from those countries have been flooding in quite a bit recently too since they've learned of the free gov't cheese to be easily had in the US at honest citizen's expense.
I'll share something I posted elsewhere on the subject:
I have met, worked with, had regular customers and experienced daily, (etc.) immigrants from England, Australia, Germany, Ukraine, Russia, Pakistan,Iran, India, China, Japan, Korea, Liberia, Kenya, and on and on.
They all knew the language enough to speak it, and unlike these illegal deadbeats here, they had a ****in' job and made a living like the rest of us. They were quite commendable and happy to be here.
Unlike the hordes of illegal Mexicans who show up in packs of 4 or 5 at all times of the day usually trying to pay the only legal relative of their's spanish channel satellite bill and asking me if they need ID to get a cell phone plan. Not to mention the old ones buying steaks at the grocery store with food stamps paid for by the public.
They are not in the cities, they are hiding out in the small towns. All the real immigrants were in the city when I lived there and I was none the wiser at the time to the increasing problem. The usual legal immigrants who worked for a living were in the city and I admired them for making a new life. Now that I've moved back to the middle of nowhere, I see that at least 40% of the population here is Hispanic and a good portion of those are illegals who have no intent of becoming an American, but getting freebies off the horribly run gov't and continue being Mexican.
It speaks volumes when the immigrants from Brazil, Honduras, Belize, Venezuela.. what have you... get seriously offended if you even imply that they are "Mexicans", though the real deadbeats from those countries have been flooding in quite a bit recently too since they've learned of the free gov't cheese to be easily had in the US at honest citizen's expense.
again that's all good and true and I agree...and the people you mentioned went thru the immigration proceess legally and I too agree this is the way....but we still are left with the issue of the illegals we need to solve....solve the problem..put something into place and go from there...I don't mean to come off wrong I agree shipping every single one back and even not allowing legal entrance is in order for a while as punishment...but I refuse to waste the gas money shipping them back to Nogales when tommorrow they will be right back where they were...it is a waste...it is not solving the problem....and those land mines cost money too.
NefariousKoel
06-16-07, 12:27 AM
They are supposedly allowed to be picked up and shipped back five times before being charged with anything. Even being charged usually involves a slap on the wrist.:damn:
Not to mention the border patrolmen and even National Guardsmen, in the latest headlines, being bribed to smuggle illegals and other contraband across the border.
What is a company in business for?... That's right , TO MAKE MONEY!
If the owners cant stuff their pockets with cash... then why bother running a business?
First off most Americans that do not have an education are usually drug addicts or are lazy and want something for nothing....
Most businesses offer a rehabilitation program if you have worked with the company for a year or more... but that doesnt help the ones who are lazy and want something for nothing.
Now the company will pay for these 'Rehab' programs ... but only if you work for another year for them and your records remains spotless and you don't relapse. If you screw up then all cost is placed on you... I don't know of any druggie that can afford that, or would pay even if it could.(that is if your a druggie that works and pays taxes)
SO THAT MEANS THE COMPANY IS OUT SOME MONEY!
Most of these uneducated Americans think that they are owed something ie. money, fancy autos with spinney rims and loud music speakers that vibrate foundations with "BOOMING", lots and lots of "BLING", large rear-ended females that "WHOOPE !! DAER IT IS!!"... ... ... well the list is almost endless...
NOW! ... if they do not get these things they will cause suffering and pain to all that stand in their path... it matters not to them who you are friend ,family , or foe.
When a company hires one of these individuals and it does not get a raise when it believes it should... well it usually feels left out and unwanted so it vandalises company property or pulls a "DRIVE BY SHOOTING" on someone involved with the company.
Either way...
THAT MEANS THE COMPANY IS OUT SOME MONEY!
These uneducated Americans often produce offspring that follow in the same path. Thus keeping a generous supply of DEMOCRAT voters... problem is most of these uneducated Americans don't vote and never will...BUT they damn sure will gripe about how the government will not give'em enough money!
OK ... let me cut to the chase.
Being that no American with an education wants to do manual hard labor...well that only leaves people who will do it because they want a better life than what they have in their own country...and if yooou have ever been to Mexico... I ain't talkin about the fancy resorts.... I'm talkin about where most of the poor populace live... Then you would understand why these people will work for almost nothing...so if a company hires these people
THAT MEANS THE COMPANY MAKES MONEY!
God, help us if we lose this vain of labors!
P.S.
Most Mexicans after 7 to 10 years here in America will get to be just as damned lazy as their American counterparts...So, I propose that after 5 years these Mexicans are sent back to receive a refresher course in what they came here for.
How do I know all this?
I see it almost everyday.
Radtgaeb
06-16-07, 08:37 AM
If minimum wage was raised a touch higher, and it was enforced a lot more stringently, it would be better for the economy. Reasoning? If JoBlo industries wants to employ some folk, why would they hire immigrants over citizens if they all have to be payed the same?
I come from a town in the midwest where there are little to no jobs left due to a) NAFTA and b) illegals. It's no fun.
If minimum wage was raised a touch higher, and it was enforced a lot more stringently, it would be better for the economy. Reasoning? If JoBlo industries wants to employ some folk, why would they hire immigrants over citizens if they all have to be payed the same?
I come from a town in the midwest where there are little to no jobs left due to a) NAFTA and b) illegals. It's no fun.
Raise the 'Minimum Wage'???
I believe that is the problem.
Every-time 'Minimum Wage' is raised then the price of everything goes up!
Remember a Business is in business to make money!
Minimum Wage goes up the price of bread, gas, food, and you name it.
'Joblo industries' gives a raise to it's hungry poor malnourished workers then it has to raise the price of it's product to cover the cost...
Please ... I hope you don't think for one minute that 'Joblo industries' will stop eating steak and seafood and living in mansions so you can live a better life... no no no
Let me put it this way...
If America stops Immigrant workers, then it will have to rely on the druggies and lazies mentioned earlier...
If that happens then we(USA) will experience a crime wave of unknown proportions, because the ones who don't want to work will be stealing, killing, and raping to get what they feel they deserve.
NefariousKoel
06-16-07, 10:04 AM
Let me put it this way...
If America stops Immigrant workers, then it will have to rely on the druggies and lazies mentioned earlier...
If that happens then we(USA) will experience a crime wave of unknown proportions, because the ones who don't want to work will be stealing, killing, and raping to get what they feel they deserve.
Property theft has skyrocketed in the local small towns here in the past few years. Is it just happenstance that the hispanic population has also skyrocketed at near the same rates?
I'm not laying a blanket accusation down, but there seems to be relativity whether it is directly them or not.
........
As a Saturday at work observation, I've had 3 customers in the store today in the first hour. 2 were Hispanics trying to get cell phones and had absolutely no US ID. One even had the nerve to hand me his ID from Guatemala and when I asked him for a state ID of some kind from the US, he freely and unwaveringly told me he didn't have any.:-?
Tchocky
06-16-07, 01:45 PM
Doesn't mean he's illegally here. I haven't a single US ID, but I've been living here for a year. Legal, too.
Doesn't mean he's illegally here. I haven't a single US ID, but I've been living here for a year. Legal, too.
Good point!
I really don't give a hoot if the worker is legal or not....
What the real problem will be ...If this labor (legal or otherwise) market is stopped... will be the multiplied billions or even trillions of dollars lost to the world economy if the USA has to start relying on lazy druggies with their ill fitting pants...:stare:
There is a cancer in my country and it's just waiting for a chance for Metastasizing...:dead:
U533...your posts are almost funny...if someone is not educated they are probably a drug addict?...dude lay off the pipe....:|\\
"First off most Americans that do not have an education are usually drug addicts or are lazy and want something for nothing...."
lol dats a good one.
You equate an education with success is your first mistake...I read all the time about college grads working at Mickey D's....no shame in min wage jobs...get back to subject....subject is Mexican and or Illegal immig's....not crack heads.
Lagger123987
06-17-07, 12:18 AM
I Think Illegal People Should So Work In The Coal Mines Like Pows.
U533...your posts are almost funny...if someone is not educated they are probably a drug addict?...dude lay off the pipe....:|\\
"First off most Americans that do not have an education are usually drug addicts or are lazy and want something for nothing...."
lol dats a good one.
You equate an education with success is your first mistake...I read all the time about college grads working at Mickey D's....no shame in min wage jobs...get back to subject....subject is Mexican and or Illegal immig's....not crack heads.
The key word there is MOST...
I know of plenty of educated people that are druggies also... they are the ones I really have no sympathy for.
But I'm not going to argue the point your trying to push...
I know what I see where I have to work and do business...Your world maybe different...but if you put your head back in the sand, the problem will pass you by.:up: :rotfl:
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.