Male US Vets twice as likely to suicide.

[Heibges]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19187272/

This is really sad.

What shocked me is that they are most likely to use a gun, which means they really want to die, as opposed to just staging a cry for help.

The study covers men from 1917 to 1994.

They are saying doctors really need to watch Vets returning from Iraq and Afghanistan now.

[robbo180265]

That's really sad. I can only assume that the rate isn't so bad in this country because we don't have guns. I would imagine that it's a lot easier to kill yourself with a gun than say, throwing yourself in front of a train.

Either way though it's terrible to think of those vetrans who have served for their country,feeling so isolated and depressed.

[micky1up]

its symptomatic of a nation that uses its men in the so called defence of freedom but doesnt look after them i doubt the polititians in the USA or the UK could spell freedom

[Hakahura]

Have to agree with you there Robbo.
Whilst we have our problems in the UK, the proliferate availability of firearms in the USA appears to exacerbate their difficulties in dealing with Veterens suffering from psychological difficulties.

[Yahoshua]

Are we really going to hash over this issue again?

An inaminate object driving people to commit suicide or commit a crime or go on a murder spree? C'mon, you're not 5 year olds anymore. Vehicles don't cause accidents, careless driving does (ie. the person behind the wheel).

These men may suffer severe trauma as a result of their experiences, the presence of a firearm has no effect on whether or not they choose to commit suicide as a person who is determined to kill themselves will find a way to do so.

But for the meantime we should focus on taking care of our vets.

[P_Funk]

Are we really going to hash over this issue again?

An inaminate object driving people to commit suicide or commit a crime or go on a murder spree? C'mon, you're not 5 year olds anymore. Vehicles don't cause accidents, careless driving does (ie. the person behind the wheel).

These men may suffer severe trauma as a result of their experiences, the presence of a firearm has no effect on whether or not they choose to commit suicide as a person who is determined to kill themselves will find a way to do so.

But for the meantime we should focus on taking care of our vets.
Thats not entirely true. The availability of a gun can offer a quicker means to commit suicide while if it were harder to get it it might delay or otherwise change the course of events. Inanimate objects DO cause the effect, just because it requires the physical effort of a person doesn't make the object any less significant in the cause-effect relationship. If a suicidal person is going to kill themselves, period, them we should just give overdose levels of morphine to suicidal teens and hire Kavorkian as a state doctor who helps terminal patients die.

Psychology is far too complex to just dismiss one thing or another. Guns have their own place in the cause and effect of such things. Its just not so easy as to sit in one camp or another. But this isn't about gun control.

Basically vets from wars after WW2 vets have been getting screwed when they got home. In Canada its an issue too. I remember reading about some story where a woman working for the Canadian armed forces spent her career in a loud noisy room (I forget what exactly but it was like a mail room or something like that). The noise had caused significant hearing loss. However when she asked for assistance she was denied government help as a member of the armed forces because they claimed her hearing loss was hereditary. Now she isn't a veteran of an armed conflict but she does demonstrate that the military up here is acting like an insurance company with its benefits.

My grandfather, on the otehr hand, has the best pension plan in existance in my country. He gets something like 7k a month as a veteran. Not bad for an 86 year old Keno player.

[robbo180265]

Are we really going to hash over this issue again?

An inaminate object driving people to commit suicide or commit a crime or go on a murder spree? C'mon, you're not 5 year olds anymore. Vehicles don't cause accidents, careless driving does (ie. the person behind the wheel).

These men may suffer severe trauma as a result of their experiences, the presence of a firearm has no effect on whether or not they choose to commit suicide as a person who is determined to kill themselves will find a way to do so.

But for the meantime we should focus on taking care of our vets.

I never intended this to turn into a debate into firearms - more an observation of how easier it is to kill yourself if you have a firearm(which I would imagine most American vets do) It's a lot harder to kill yourself without out one.

That is just a logical observation from where I'm sat, I really don't care wether you guys have guns or not.

It's your country after all.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_2700_132/ai_108791285

WAR CAN ******* YOU UP!!!:up::nope::nope::nope::nope::nope:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/22/1433251

[Hakahura]

I find myself in complete agreement again Robbo.

I make no judgement on the morality of privately owned firearms , merely an observation of how they appear can be used.

[Letum]

In 2004 the global suicide death toll was equal to the death toll from: war, murder and accidental violent death all together.
Most at risk are people in Eastern Europe, Northern Asia and Australia. Whilst Latin America, Muslim nations and parts of Southern Asia have the lowest suicide rates.

Very sad.





Please don't start another guns topic in here guys :shifty:

[robbo180265]

As I suspected it seems pretty bad over here too.

"More veterans of the Falklands War have killed themselves in the years since the 1982 conflict ended than died during hostilities, according to a veterans support group".

The whole story to be found here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1758301.stm

I've found it difficult to find any concrete figures for British Vets in general, but I wouldn't imagine there would be much difference, I don't doubt that our government is just as rubbish at looking after it's vets as America.

[Tchocky]

Mental health professionals say there's a suicide epidemic among young males in Ireland :-?

[Letum]

Mental health professionals say there's a suicide epidemic among young males in Ireland :-?

Currently its older men* that are most likely to commit suicide, but that trend is sadly starting to change to younger men.

*except in parts of Asia when it is younger women.

[Heibges]

I find myself in complete agreement again Robbo.

I make no judgement on the morality of privately owned firearms , merely an observation of how they appear can be used.

There is currently a drive in San Francisco and Marin to put up a suicide-barrier along the Golden Gate Bridge for a similar reason. 1900 folks have killed themselves there since the bridge open, so that's around 200 people per year. The Golden Gate Bridge is currently the #1 Suicide Destination Worldwide.

The Golden Gate Bridge is one of the last major landmarks that does not have a suicide-barrier.

[Tchocky]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bridge_%28documentary_film%29

[Heibges]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bridge_%28documentary_film%29

I haven't seen it, but I remember when it hit the papers that it was a doc on bridge suicides there was quite an uproar.

Personally, I think is totally shameless on the part of the film maker.:nope:

[Tchocky]

I'm not sure.
Suicide on the Golden gate is a public act, and the film makers had a watch on the bridge every day, they called the police as soon as someone looked likely to jump. Apparently lives were saved

[Enigma]

Put it this way.

If I owned a handgun, there is a good chance I wouldnt be here today.

nuff said.

[Heibges]

As I suspected it seems pretty bad over here too.

"More veterans of the Falklands War have killed themselves in the years since the 1982 conflict ended than died during hostilities, according to a veterans support group".

The whole story to be found here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1758301.stm

I've found it difficult to find any concrete figures for British Vets in general, but I wouldn't imagine there would be much difference, I don't doubt that our government is just as rubbish at looking after it's vets as America.

I think this might be related to that study the US Army did after WWII, that 80% of combat infantryman who were actually in combat, never actually aimed their weapons at the enemy. Apparently, they were more afraid of killing someone than getting killed.

Despite 3000 years of bloody human history as a race, it seems individuals are highly influenced by conscience and guilt.

[August]

I think this might be related to that study the US Army did after WWII, that 80% of combat infantryman who were actually in combat, never actually aimed their weapons at the enemy. Apparently, they were more afraid of killing someone than getting killed.

I know of that study. Apparently they took the amount of ammunition used divided by the number of enemy KIA/WIA to come up with that figure. Unfortunately it ignores the tactic of supressive fire.

[Heibges]

I think this might be related to that study the US Army did after WWII, that 80% of combat infantryman who were actually in combat, never actually aimed their weapons at the enemy. Apparently, they were more afraid of killing someone than getting killed.

I know of that study. Apparently they took the amount of ammunition used divided by the number of enemy KIA/WIA to come up with that figure. Unfortunately it ignores the tactic of supressive fire.

Are you sure you are not thinking of the study after Vietnam, that calculated 10,000 rounds per enemy KIA, and caused the Army to refocus on Basic Rifle Marksmanship? I believe this was conducted by like a dozen colonels, and they came back with like 6 bullet points of what the Army had to do, but to this day those bulletpoints are classified.

I am thinking of the study after WWII, where I believe they specifically asked these guys whether they fired they aimed at the enemy or not.

We looked at both of them in my OBC, but it was a long time ago, and the details are foggy.

[August]

Are you sure you are not thinking of the study after Vietnam, that calculated 10,000 rounds per enemy KIA, and caused the Army to refocus on Basic Rifle Marksmanship? I believe this was conducted by like a dozen colonels, and they came back with like 6 bullet points of what the Army had to do, but to this day those bulletpoints are classified.

I am thinking of the study after WWII, where I believe they specifically asked these guys whether they fired they aimed at the enemy or not.

We looked at both of them in my OBC, but it was a long time ago, and the details are foggy.

Yeah maybe that's the one i'm thinking of.