Muhammad is No 2 in boy's names

[waste gate]

I guess we're looking at a future London-Abad.

Muhammad is now second only to Jack as the most popular name for baby boys in Britain and is likely to rise to No 1 by next year, a study by The Times has found. The name, if all 14 different spellings are included, was shared by 5,991 newborn boys last year, beating Thomas into third place, followed by Joshua and Oliver.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1890354.ece

[Rose]

And...? Lots of Muslims naming their child the same name. I don't see anything wrong with that.

[robbo180265]

Nor me.

[waste gate]

Overall, Muslims account for 3 per cent of the British population, about 1.5 million people. However, the Muslim birthrate is roughly three times higher than the nonMuslim one.

Just news. The British will have to determine what it means.

[robbo180265]

Overall, Muslims account for 3 per cent of the British population, about 1.5 million people. However, the Muslim birthrate is roughly three times higher than the nonMuslim one.

Just news. The British will have to determine what it means.

I hate to say this Wastegate, but this all seem a bit Islamaphobic to me. Maybe I'm overreacting but I just don't get your point. Unless you're just having a dig at Muslims. I really don't care who's having babies, or indeed who's Muslim and who isn't , because we are all ENGLISH and that's what matters

[fatty]

Congrats to all those proud new parents :up:

[Rose]

I have a few Muslim friends myself. There are good and bad Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc. It did strike me as a bit "Islamophobic" as well.

[waste gate]

Overall, Muslims account for 3 per cent of the British population, about 1.5 million people. However, the Muslim birthrate is roughly three times higher than the nonMuslim one.

Just news. The British will have to determine what it means.

I hate to say this Wastegate, but this all seem a bit Islamaphobic to me. Maybe I'm overreacting but I just don't get your point. Unless you're just having a dig at Muslims. I really don't care who's having babies, or indeed who's Muslim and who isn't , because we are all ENGLISH and that's what matters.

I didn't write the arcticle or make any value judgement I am merely passing it along.

This acticle appeared one year ago.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/printable1893879.shtml

[robbo180265]

Overall, Muslims account for 3 per cent of the British population, about 1.5 million people. However, the Muslim birthrate is roughly three times higher than the nonMuslim one.

Just news. The British will have to determine what it means.

I hate to say this Wastegate, but this all seem a bit Islamaphobic to me. Maybe I'm overreacting but I just don't get your point. Unless you're just having a dig at Muslims. I really don't care who's having babies, or indeed who's Muslim and who isn't , because we are all ENGLISH and that's what matters.

I didn't write the arcticle or make any value judgement I am merely passing it along.

This acticle appeared one year ago.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/printable1893879.shtml

I was questioning your motivation for passing it along. How would a British Muslim feel reading something like this?

How do you know that I'm not a Muslim myself?

The majority of Muslims in this country are good respectible people, I have lots as friends and I'm sorry but this kind of thing really annoys me.

[cobalt]

Whoa, do I see this correctly?

Are people actually backing muslims in this thread?!

this is a first for subsim!

whoooooooohooo

[Letum]

I didn't write the arcticle or make any value judgement I am merely passing it along.

Nincompoop! no one makes a political post with out making some sort of statement, even if its one we have to read between the lines to find and we don't need to read far in to your post to see what you are saying.

I would be no more concerned about a UK with a 50% muslim population than I am about the UK with a 50% female population!
The idea that the UK should attempt to keep as much of its population as white people with christian names is both absurd and dangerous.

I for one would like to welcome all the young or newly arrived mohammed's to our fine country!

[waste gate]

Overall, Muslims account for 3 per cent of the British population, about 1.5 million people. However, the Muslim birthrate is roughly three times higher than the nonMuslim one.

Just news. The British will have to determine what it means.

I hate to say this Wastegate, but this all seem a bit Islamaphobic to me. Maybe I'm overreacting but I just don't get your point. Unless you're just having a dig at Muslims. I really don't care who's having babies, or indeed who's Muslim and who isn't , because we are all ENGLISH and that's what matters.

I didn't write the arcticle or make any value judgement I am merely passing it along.

This acticle appeared one year ago.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/printable1893879.shtml

I was questioning your motivation for passing it along. How would a British Muslim feel reading something like this?

How do you know that I'm not a Muslim myself?

The majority of Muslims in this country are good respectible people, I have lots as friends and I'm sorry but this kind of thing really annoys me.

I guess my motivation was the free distribution of information. I hope that wasn't the part that annoyed you. While we are on the subject of annoyance, do you think that I am not annoyed by many things? Life is 10%, what happens and 90%, how you react.

One can only be annoyed if they let themselvese be annoyed.

[Rose]

Overall, Muslims account for 3 per cent of the British population, about 1.5 million people. However, the Muslim birthrate is roughly three times higher than the nonMuslim one.

Just news. The British will have to determine what it means.

I hate to say this Wastegate, but this all seem a bit Islamaphobic to me. Maybe I'm overreacting but I just don't get your point. Unless you're just having a dig at Muslims. I really don't care who's having babies, or indeed who's Muslim and who isn't , because we are all ENGLISH and that's what matters.

I didn't write the arcticle or make any value judgement I am merely passing it along.

This acticle appeared one year ago.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/printable1893879.shtml

I was questioning your motivation for passing it along. How would a British Muslim feel reading something like this?

How do you know that I'm not a Muslim myself?

The majority of Muslims in this country are good respectible people, I have lots as friends and I'm sorry but this kind of thing really annoys me.

I guess my motivation was the free distribution of information. I hope that wasn't the part that annoyed you. While we are on the subject of annoyance, do you think that I am not annoyed by many things? Life is 10%, what happens and 90%, how you react.

One can only be annoyed if they let themselvese be annoyed.

No news is "just news." Behind this news is a statement you are trying to make (as Letum said). There is a reason you posted this article, and your bias clearly seeps through in only two posts.

[robbo180265]

Overall, Muslims account for 3 per cent of the British population, about 1.5 million people. However, the Muslim birthrate is roughly three times higher than the nonMuslim one.

Just news. The British will have to determine what it means.

I hate to say this Wastegate, but this all seem a bit Islamaphobic to me. Maybe I'm overreacting but I just don't get your point. Unless you're just having a dig at Muslims. I really don't care who's having babies, or indeed who's Muslim and who isn't , because we are all ENGLISH and that's what matters.

I didn't write the arcticle or make any value judgement I am merely passing it along.

This acticle appeared one year ago.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/printable1893879.shtml

I was questioning your motivation for passing it along. How would a British Muslim feel reading something like this?

How do you know that I'm not a Muslim myself?

The majority of Muslims in this country are good respectible people, I have lots as friends and I'm sorry but this kind of thing really annoys me.

I guess my motivation was the free distribution of information. I hope that wasn't the part that annoyed you. While we are on the subject of annoyance, do you think that I am not annoyed by many things? Life is 10%, what happens and 90%, how you react.

One can only be annoyed if they let themselvese be annoyed.

I for one could do without that kind of information.

[waste gate]

Perhaps the comments say more about yourselves than it does about my post.:hmm:

[Skybird]

There is very much to critizise and question in Islam, but trying to set it up as an issue in this way is a bit stereotypic and premature - as is to reply with the old argument of "I know a Muslkim guy living on the same floor like me, and he is okay." If the public debate on Islam remains on this uneducated level, than all hope is lost.

It is neither about first names, nor about guys living on the same floor, it is about the content of an ideology. This has to be academically analysed and compared to history (if history violates the content of the teachings or not, and what Islam brought to the nations and people). And the outcome of this unbiased analysis is what decides the verdict on Islam.

I do not write another long essay here. I only tell you that the violance and many wars are not caused by violating Muhammad's teachings, but by following Muhammad's teachings, which should tell people all important that is to be known about it. And there ain't no other Islam than Muhammad's. Islamism, fanatism, fundamentalism, extremism - all that are self-deceptions and inventions of western minds who desperately try to define true Islam in a way that they can tame it with their limited verbal means- they do not want to accept the brutal reality, and prefer the illusion that they can "manage" it.

Now
1. check Muhammad's biography, by that
2. understand the character behind that name and see
3. his motivation why he said what the Quran claims that he has said. And then
4. determine if this queer and brutal self-justification of a notorious mobster can be the origin of a teaching of peace, tolerance and freedom.

That man have ordered dozens of wars, has slaughtered with his own hands, has blackmailed, has given assassination orders, and commited genocide. Now ask yourself why a guy like for example Hitler never was considered to be a candidate for the peace nobel prize - or why Muhammad in no way can be comapred to guys like Siddharta, Ghandi, or Jesus.

Judging the man by his deeds and queer teachings, Muhammad was the total anti-thesis to what Jesus, Ghandi and buddha were teaching. In plain english: he was a narcistic and unscrupelous gangster suffering from epilepsy, who abused a "religion" he invented himself as an excuse for self-justification on behalf of his brutal crimes that illustrated his magelomania. Islam is just the superstitious cult made around a criminal. End of message. where he was foistering social "reforms", they came at the price of all that were not with him, and the cost of women in general, and their major use was to attract others to his leadership.

Possible that that kind guy that you know to live on your floor simply does not wish to see that, maybe honstely does not know that since he never read a book on Islam that was different from the Quran (trying educational sources and seeking answers to existential questions outside the Quran is according to the Sharia forbidden by death penalty), or he rfuses to analyse it for it would question his complete world model and view on life. After WWII, many Germans also did not want to realuze the cruel truth of what has happened ion the KZs. That'S why some Allied commanders ordered local residents to go there and helpt to bury the dead. You do not do Muslims a favbour if you time and again give them the chance to sneak away from questioning their socalled faith, and if you never confront them with some undeniable hostorical facts and truths. If ou always allow Islam'S people to evade any critical questions - how could you seriously expect then, that Islam will ever chnage and adapt to other cultures? Becasue what they learn from your unlimzrted tolerance is: we get away with it, so why should be change?

You cannot tame Islam.

[Letum]

OK, WG, I shall play along with you a little. How about you enlighten us as to your 'real' oppinion on the news item?

What do you think, or what would you think where you British?


*edit*
Perhaps the comments say more about yourselves than it does about my post.:hmm:
Or perhaps they say more of our expectations based on your formerly expressed views. :hmm:

[Rose]

Perhaps the comments say more about yourselves than it does about my post.:hmm:

Heh, like what? That we don't have a preconcieved notion about followers of Islam?

[robbo180265]

Perhaps the comments say more about yourselves than it does about my post.:hmm:

Heh, like what? That we don't have a preconcieved notion about followers of Islam?

Or that we're not Islamaphobic?

[Camaero]

I'm islamaphobic. :gulp:

[Letum]

You cannot tame Islam.

But there are "tame" muslims!

Islam may well contain a lot of immoral ideology, that can never be changed as you cant re-write religious texts. What can be changed is the way people follow those texts. The vast majority of muslims in the UK follow them in a perfectly 'tame' way. :D

[waste gate]

OK, WG, I shall play along with you a little. How about you enlighten us as to your 'real' oppinion on the news item?

What do you think, or what would you think where you British?


*edit*
Perhaps the comments say more about yourselves than it does about my post.:hmm:
Or perhaps they say more of our expectations based on your formerly expressed views. :hmm:

So your waste gate-phobic?:rotfl: :rotfl:

I'll get to you very soon on your other play along question.

[robbo180265]

OK, WG, I shall play along with you a little. How about you enlighten us as to your 'real' oppinion on the news item?

What do you think, or what would you think where you British?


*edit*
Perhaps the comments say more about yourselves than it does about my post.:hmm:
Or perhaps they say more of our expectations based on your formerly expressed views. :hmm:

So your waste gate-phobic?:rotfl: :rotfl:

I'll get to you very soon on your other play along question.

Perhaps you should just answer the question that you were asked ?

Or are you scared?

[Letum]

So your waste gate-phobic?:rotfl: :rotfl:

"phobic" implies something irrational.
Come to think of it it implies fear as well...ridiculous! ;)

[fatty]

So your waste gate-phobic?:rotfl: :rotfl:


"phobic" implies something irrational.
Ba-zing!

[Rose]

So your waste gate-phobic?:rotfl: :rotfl:


"phobic" implies something irrational.
Ba-zing!

This is getting exciting!

[waste gate]

My real opinion is that I don't care what happens in Britain. I do care about how the US is portrayed on this forum and I just want some to look at their own countries before attacking mine.

[robbo180265]

So your waste gate-phobic?:rotfl: :rotfl:


"phobic" implies something irrational.
Ba-zing!

This is getting exciting!

revealing more like

[Rose]

My real opinion is that I don't care what happens in Britain. I do care about how the US is portrayed on this forum and I just want some to look at their own countries before attacking mine.

People were attacking us for having lots of Muslims in our country? I'm not quite sure I follow.

*Edit:* I do agree with you that there have been a few annoying anti-US statements on this forum recently, but I am having trouble connecting that with this.

*Edit 2:* I really should get out of here and start As I Lay Dying!

[Letum]

My real opinion is that I don't care what happens in Britain. I do care about how the US is portrayed on this forum and I just want some to look at their own countries before attacking mine.
How about my hypothetical:


What do you think, or what would you think where you British?
As I said...what would you think where you British?



*edit* and what Rose said ;)

[Skybird]

You cannot tame Islam.

But there are "tame" muslims!

Islam may well contain a lot of immoral ideology, that can never be changed as you cant re-write religious texts. What can be changed is the way people follow those texts. The vast majority of muslims in the UK follow them in a perfectly 'tame' way. :D
Tame muslims are violating Islam in some essential parts. Of course they hate to become aware of that. I just don't understand why. Being regared as veing associated with something that is so queer that one feels motivated to ingore major poarts of it is - irrational at best, imo.

Is there something like a "liberal stalinist? A "tame Chinese culture revolution" with millions dead? A "democratic Nazi?" If oyu do not follow Stalin, Mao Tse tung and hitler, why could you wish nevertheless to be seen as one of their followers? that is simply idiotic.

Fact is that over one third (amongst the young ones: over one half) accept violance to be used if it helps to turn Britain into an Islamic country and install the Sharia.

Fact is that islamic communties push with more and more aggressiveness and determination for opening lawcodes, education systems and laws in general for Islamic views of things.

Fact is that the majority of the offsprings of immigrants, or better: colonist-families are more conservative and loyal to Islam than even their parents. This is somethign that you will find expressed from sociological data for almost all euzropean countries. It is is counter-intuitive and makes mockery of our hope how integration would function.

As was posted and discussed and reported and linked and referred to many times roughly one year ago.

And why turning violant and offering a reason for counter-attack if you see that hollowing-out democarcy by using it's own rules and laws and values against it works so much better, only a bit slower? Military bombs did not help them well in their conquest of europe, but clerics and politicians on inner-Islamic conferences today frankly speak of "Islam'S demographic bomb". I assume that is only rethoric for you. Your fault, not mine.

I often have referred to the total defenselessness of Wetsern secular constitutions aginst Islam's non-secular nature, since Islam by that can push political goals and demand that all resistance is being given iup by claiming the freedom of relgious practice. And well-meaning people like you, Leturm, allow themselves getting paralysed by that.

You may want to have a closer look behind the events that currently unfold in Turkey. If oyu think it is about democrtacy in action, than you are lightyears off target. It is about turning democracy against itself in order to overthrow it in a manner that it will not defend itself and the attack even will be helped by democratic Europe. Europe could learn a lot about it's future fate by looking at Turkey. Possible that europeans do not like what there is to be seen, and will refuse to accept the reality and stick with their self-made deceptions for that reason.

Well, I consider Europe to be a mental asylum anyway.

[waste gate]

My real opinion is that I don't care what happens in Britain. I do care about how the US is portrayed on this forum and I just want some to look at their own countries before attacking mine.
How about my hypothetical:


What do you think, or what would you think where you British?
As I said...what would you think where you British?



*edit* and what Rose said ;)

I'm not British and I will not place myself in that position, so I can't answer that hypothetical question. That was the reason for my post. The British need to make the judgement. Not a Yank.

The very idea that you would let me make a decision is the problem. Why you ask? Because it takes the will of the people from those who should be in control of their country.

[robbo180265]

Letum - can I use your Skybird fanclub sig?

And Rose - Start reading!!!

[PeriscopeDepth]

You must have an opinion if you thought it was important enough to post for the Brits' benefit. You're just not telling.

PD

[robbo180265]

My real opinion is that I don't care what happens in Britain. I do care about how the US is portrayed on this forum and I just want some to look at their own countries before attacking mine.
How about my hypothetical:


What do you think, or what would you think where you British?
As I said...what would you think where you British?



*edit* and what Rose said ;)

I'm not British and I will not place myself in that position, so I can't answer that hypothetical question. That was the reason for my post. The British need to make the judgement. Not a Yank.

Sorry mate, but from where I'm sat I'd say you'd already made your judgment and were just afraid of proving the majority of us in this thread right. And that's why you wont answer the question IMHO

[waste gate]

You must have an opinion if you thought it was important enough to post for the Brits' benefit. You're just not telling.

PD

Just because it wasn't the answer you wanted doesn't mean it isn't the truth!!

[Rose]

You cannot tame Islam.

But there are "tame" muslims!

Islam may well contain a lot of immoral ideology, that can never be changed as you cant re-write religious texts. What can be changed is the way people follow those texts. The vast majority of muslims in the UK follow them in a perfectly 'tame' way. :D
Fact is that over one third (amongst the young ones: over one half) accept violance to be used

I'd like to see you tell that to my Muslim friends. They certainly differ from your description. One of them even had a sip of beer once (STRICTLY against Islamic code). Quite the rebel. :rotfl:

I think that, like Christianity or Judaism, there are varying degrees of commitment and belief, ranging from, "Oh, my dad is Muslim, so I guess that technically makes me Muslim" to "death to the infidel." No different from Christianity and Judaism -- there are people who go to church on Christmas and Easter, and there are people who try to brainwash our kids with beliefs of Christian fundamentalism.

[PeriscopeDepth]

You must have an opinion if you thought it was important enough to post for the Brits' benefit. You're just not telling.

PD
Just because it wasn't the answer you wanted doesn't mean it isn't the truth!!

There's no answer I want. Just answers that don't make my bull$hit meter zing.

PD

[waste gate]

Here is the answer you all want. We are all much better people thanks to Islam.
Without the prophet ours would be a much less peaceful world.

[Rose]

Here is the answer you all want. We are all much better people thanks to Islam.
Without the prophet ours would be a much less peaceful world.

When did any of us say that or imply that? All I am saying is that not all Muslims are calling for death to the infidel. There are good ones. There are bad ones.

[Letum]

My real opinion is that I don't care what happens in Britain. I do care about how the US is portrayed on this forum and I just want some to look at their own countries before attacking mine.
How about my hypothetical:


What do you think, or what would you think where you British?
As I said...what would you think where you British?



*edit* and what Rose said ;)
I'm not British and I will not place myself in that position, so I can't answer that hypothetical question. That was the reason for my post. The British need to make the judgement. Not a Yank.

The very idea that you would let me make a decision is the problem. Why you ask? Because it takes the will of the people from those who should be in control of their country.

Ok, what if the news story was about the USA instead of the UK?
Now you are not err....."taking away my will" in the hypothetical. :huh:

[robbo180265]

Here is the answer you all want. We are all much better people thanks to Islam.
Without the prophet ours would be a much less peaceful world.

Actually the answer that I really want is

We don't make judgments about other people based on the colour of their skin or the religion they follow.

That would work for me.

[Rose]

Here is the answer you all want. We are all much better people thanks to Islam.
Without the prophet ours would be a much less peaceful world.

Actually the answer that I really want is

We don't make judgments about other people based on the colour of their skin or the religion they follow.

That would work for me.

^^
What he said.

[waste gate]

Here is the answer you all want. We are all much better people thanks to Islam.
Without the prophet ours would be a much less peaceful world.

When did any of us say that or imply that? All I am saying is that not all Muslims are calling for death to the infidel. There are good ones. There are bad ones.

No one did. That is my answer.

[waste gate]

My real opinion is that I don't care what happens in Britain. I do care about how the US is portrayed on this forum and I just want some to look at their own countries before attacking mine.
How about my hypothetical:


What do you think, or what would you think where you British?
As I said...what would you think where you British?



*edit* and what Rose said ;)
I'm not British and I will not place myself in that position, so I can't answer that hypothetical question. That was the reason for my post. The British need to make the judgement. Not a Yank.

The very idea that you would let me make a decision is the problem. Why you ask? Because it takes the will of the people from those who should be in control of their country.

Ok, what if the news story was about the USA instead of the UK?
Now you are not err....."taking away my will" in the hypothetical. :huh:

Your question continues to be hypothetical. This isn't happening in the US yet.

Besides, you should see my answwer from before I saw this post.

[Skybird]

All I am saying is that not all Muslims are calling for death to the infidel. There are good ones. There are bad ones.
To stick to your language - but the Quran calls for the death to the infidels - or their subjugation and then discrimination (which in history often led to exploitation: see Spain).

Good muslims you said. how do you define that? Is a good Muslim following or violating the Quran? If you mean"good" in the meaning of "humane and friendly", then this is violating Quran'S rules of how to deal with infidels ( namely intolerant, discriminatory, and killing them or subjugating them, and bring islam by force to all world: reflected by hiostory: Islam almost always has been spread by the use of violance and force only). but if he is violating the Quran so massively, why do you call him a Muslim then (or why does he wish to be seen as one, then)? And if a Muslim is followng the Quranic rules on how to deal with infidels (namels treating them as non-equals or slaves), this would be following Muhammad's rules (therefor "good muslim"), but violating Western standards ("bad Muslim").

I don't see good and bad Muslims. I see Muslims that are in conformity with the Quran, and Muslims that contradict themselves.

And in the main I see and focus on (and argue about) the ideology of Islam anyway, not single people.

[Rose]

All I am saying is that not all Muslims are calling for death to the infidel. There are good ones. There are bad ones.
To stick to your language - but the Quran calls for the death to the infidels - or their subjugation and then discrimination (which in history often led to exploitation: see Spain).

Good muslims you said. how do you define that? Is a good Muslim following or violating the Quran? If you mean"good" in the meaning of "humane and friendly", then this is violating Quran'S rules of how to deal with infidels ( namely intolerant, discriminatory, and killing them or subjugating them, and bring islam by force to all world: reflected by hiostory: Islam almost always has been spread by the use of violance and force only). but if he is violating the Quran so massively, why do you call him a Muslim then (or why does he wish to be seen as one, then)? And if a Muslim is followng the Quranic rules on how to deal with infidels (namels treating them as non-equals or slaves), this would be following Muhammad's rules (therefor "good muslim"), but violating Western standards ("bad Muslim").

I don't see good and bad Muslims. I see Muslims that are in conformity with the Quran, and Muslims that contradict themselves.

And in the main I see and focus on (and argue about) the ideology of Islam anyway, not single people.

Look at the Old Testament -- we are supposed to stone our children if they do not obey us. No one (well, maybe a few people, I really don't know) follows this code. I see this as a direct correlation to the Qu'ran. Or is the section on killing/discriminating against "infidels" a main theme of the Qu'ran? If it really is one of the main themes of Islam, then I guess my friends would be violating the Qu'ran and they are "contradictory" Muslims as you say. But then again, so would the other 800,000,000 Muslims who don't use or condone violence to further their religious goals.

*Edit:* I got the idea that the thread topic is about the PEOPLE who follow Islam, not the ideology.

[Tchocky]

Sky, would you prefer it if all people who regard themselves as Muslim followed the Quran and the teachings of Mohammed to the letter, in every possible way?

It sounds like you're cheesed off at their lapsed fanaticism :-?

[Letum]

All I am saying is that not all Muslims are calling for death to the infidel. There are good ones. There are bad ones. To stick to your language - but the Quran calls for the death to the infidels - or their subjugation and then discrimination (which in history often led to exploitation: see Spain).

Good muslims you said. how do you define that? Is a good Muslim following or violating the Quran? If you mean"good" in the meaning of "humane and friendly", then this is violating Quran'S rules of how to deal with infidels ( namely intolerant, discriminatory, and killing them or subjugating them, and bring islam by force to all world: reflected by hiostory: Islam almost always has been spread by the use of violance and force only). but if he is violating the Quran so massively, why do you call him a Muslim then (or why does he wish to be seen as one, then)? And if a Muslim is followng the Quranic rules on how to deal with infidels (namels treating them as non-equals or slaves), this would be following Muhammad's rules (therefor "good muslim"), but violating Western standards ("bad Muslim").

I don't see good and bad Muslims. I see Muslims that are in conformity with the Quran, and Muslims that contradict themselves.

And in the main I see and focus on (and argue about) the ideology of Islam anyway, not single people.
Nothing wrong with contradicting your religion. It's almost a part of religion! Every religion I can think of does it to some extent.

Arf @ Tchocky! :rotfl: very good!

[fatty]

All I am saying is that not all Muslims are calling for death to the infidel. There are good ones. There are bad ones.
To stick to your language - but the Quran calls for the death to the infidels - or their subjugation and then discrimination (which in history often led to exploitation: see Spain).

Good muslims you said. how do you define that? Is a good Muslim following or violating the Quran? If you mean"good" in the meaning of "humane and friendly", then this is violating Quran'S rules of how to deal with infidels ( namely intolerant, discriminatory, and killing them or subjugating them, and bring islam by force to all world: reflected by hiostory: Islam almost always has been spread by the use of violance and force only). but if he is violating the Quran so massively, why do you call him a Muslim then (or why does he wish to be seen as one, then)? And if a Muslim is followng the Quranic rules on how to deal with infidels (namels treating them as non-equals or slaves), this would be following Muhammad's rules (therefor "good muslim"), but violating Western standards ("bad Muslim").

I don't see good and bad Muslims. I see Muslims that are in conformity with the Quran, and Muslims that contradict themselves.

And in the main I see and focus on (and argue about) the ideology of Islam anyway, not single people.

Look at the Old Testament -- we are supposed to stone our children if they do not obey us. No one (well, maybe a few people, I really don't know) follows this code. I see this as a direct correlation to the Qu'ran. Or is the section on killing/discriminating against "infidels" a main theme of the Qu'ran? If it really is one of the main themes of Islam, then I guess my friends would be violating the Qu'ran and they are "contradictory" Muslims as you say. But then again, so would the other 500,000,000 Muslims who don't use or condone violence to further their religious goals.

*Edit:* I got the idea that the thread topic is about the PEOPLE who follow Islam, not the ideology.

I brought this up once but I was told that the Old Testament doesn't matter in Christianity. I find this odd because on Sunday mornings our scripture readings seem to cite the OT as frequently as the NT :-?

[Letum]

I brought this up once but I was told that the Old Testament doesn't matter in Christianity. I find this odd because on Sunday mornings our scripture readings seem to cite the OT as frequently as the NT :-?
The old testement is held to be true by Christianity, but some parts are replaced.


Edited quotes for space.

[Rose]

I brought this up once but I was told that the Old Testament doesn't matter in Christianity. I find this odd because on Sunday mornings our scripture readings seem to cite the OT as frequently as the NT :-?

I was referring to Christianity and/or Judaism. Doesn't really matter which, I was just using it as an example of not following holy scripture word-for-word. That has happened to me sometimes though, fatty.

[Tchocky]

Cheers, Letum (I was serious to boot :))

@ original post - another waste-gate-answer-the-question-please thread :p

[robbo180265]

All I am saying is that not all Muslims are calling for death to the infidel. There are good ones. There are bad ones. To stick to your language - but the Quran calls for the death to the infidels - or their subjugation and then discrimination (which in history often led to exploitation: see Spain).

Good muslims you said. how do you define that? Is a good Muslim following or violating the Quran? If you mean"good" in the meaning of "humane and friendly", then this is violating Quran'S rules of how to deal with infidels ( namely intolerant, discriminatory, and killing them or subjugating them, and bring islam by force to all world: reflected by hiostory: Islam almost always has been spread by the use of violance and force only). but if he is violating the Quran so massively, why do you call him a Muslim then (or why does he wish to be seen as one, then)? And if a Muslim is followng the Quranic rules on how to deal with infidels (namels treating them as non-equals or slaves), this would be following Muhammad's rules (therefor "good muslim"), but violating Western standards ("bad Muslim").

I don't see good and bad Muslims. I see Muslims that are in conformity with the Quran, and Muslims that contradict themselves.

And in the main I see and focus on (and argue about) the ideology of Islam anyway, not single people.
Look at the Old Testament -- we are supposed to stone our children if they do not obey us. No one (well, maybe a few people, I really don't know) follows this code. I see this as a direct correlation to the Qu'ran. Or is the section on killing/discriminating against "infidels" a main theme of the Qu'ran? If it really is one of the main themes of Islam, then I guess my friends would be violating the Qu'ran and they are "contradictory" Muslims as you say. But then again, so would the other 500,000,000 Muslims who don't use or condone violence to further their religious goals.

*Edit:* I got the idea that the thread topic is about the PEOPLE who follow Islam, not the ideology.
I brought this up once but I was told that the Old Testament doesn't matter in Christianity. I find this odd because on Sunday mornings our scripture readings seem to cite the OT as frequently as the NT :-?

The old testement is held to be true by Christianity, but some parts are replaced.

I said this in another topic - It's just a book, it's how we interpret it that causes all the problems.

But what really annoys me(still) is the thought that every Muslim is some kind of bomb making fanatic. I just don't understand people who think like that - sorry

[waste gate]

Cheers, Letum (I was serious to boot :))

@ original post - another waste-gate-answer-the-question-please thread :p

You are right Tchocky. They lost the target.

Come and persecute me for my opinion. I love it! I think I have become an attention whore.

I'm the Paris Hilton of SubSim.

[Letum]

Heres a riddle for you all.
Tiny prize for anyone who can find it's meaning. :know:


Q: Why is wastegate a great name?
A: It is a sweet tag.

[Rose]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wastegate

Seriously... what is the significance of that tag? :lol:

You are a valve trying to divert gases away from a turbine engine? Any hidden/metaphorical meanings in there?

[Tchocky]

Look at the answer carefully, Rose

[waste gate]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wastegate

Seriously... what is the significance of that tag? :lol:

You are a valve trying to divert gases away from a turbine engine? Any hidden/metaphorical meanings in there?


The primary function of the wastegate is to stabilize pressure in turbocharger systems, to protect the engine and the turbocharger.


And to be the subject of attacks. I love you guys!!!!!!!!

[Rose]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wastegate

Seriously... what is the significance of that tag? :lol:

You are a valve trying to divert gases away from a turbine engine? Any hidden/metaphorical meanings in there?


The primary function of the wastegate is to stabilize pressure in turbocharger systems, to protect the engine and the turbocharger.


And to be the subject of attacks. I love you guys!!!!!!!!

Wow, I can't read. Btw, I'm extremely jealous of you Wastegate -- you live next to the best skiing in the world. Lucky s.o.b.

Now what were we talking about again?

[Letum]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wastegate

Seriously... what is the significance of that tag? :lol:

You are a valve trying to divert gases away from a turbine engine? Any hidden/metaphorical meanings in there?

The primary function of the wastegate is to stabilize pressure in turbocharger systems, to protect the engine and the turbocharger.


And to be the subject of attacks. I love you guys!!!!!!!!
Wow, I can't read. Btw, I'm extremely jealous of you Wastegate -- you live next to the best skiing in the world. Lucky s.o.b.

Now what were we talking about again?

oh, nothing important.

[waste gate]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wastegate

Seriously... what is the significance of that tag? :lol:

You are a valve trying to divert gases away from a turbine engine? Any hidden/metaphorical meanings in there?


The primary function of the wastegate is to stabilize pressure in turbocharger systems, to protect the engine and the turbocharger.


And to be the subject of attacks. I love you guys!!!!!!!!

Wow, I can't read. Btw, I'm extremely jealous of you Wastegate -- you live next to the best skiing in the world. Lucky s.o.b.

Now what were we talking about again?

It took me 16 years of hard work and sacrifice to get here.

[PeriscopeDepth]

I'm the Paris Hilton of SubSim.

:lol::lol::lol: Never thought I'd hear you say that!

PD

[Camaero]

We all need Waste Gate. He is our Bill O’Reilly to stir up all the Al Gores here! Without him, you would all just go happily about thinking you were right, instead of trying to prove it. In fact, here it is like watching a news channel where you have people from both sides argue their points until they're blue in the face. Then, in the end, it doesn't really matter because neither side would ever accept the other sides views. :roll: :lol:

I for one hate Al Gore, and mostly like Bill, but who cares. Back to a sub sim for me.

[The Avon Lady]

I brought this up once but I was told that the Old Testament doesn't matter in Christianity. I find this odd because on Sunday mornings our scripture readings seem to cite the OT as frequently as the NT :-?
I was referring to Christianity and/or Judaism. Doesn't really matter which, I was just using it as an example of not following holy scripture word-for-word. That has happened to me sometimes though, fatty.
Time for me to pipe in - at least on this point.

Rose, you refered to the laws of a Ben Sorer U'moreh - generally refered to as a rebelious son. See Deuteronomy 21:18.

We observant Jews are crazy about details when it comes to Jewish law. The law does not practically apply in this day and age. Even 3000 years ago, this kid would have needed quite a lot of prerequisites in order to get a Jewish court of law just to try the case, let alone convict him.

But the biggest hurdle would have been getting even the most observant Jewish parents themselves going through with this.

Hence, the Babylonian Talmud (Tractate Sanhedrin 71) says:
Rabbi Shimon Ben Gamliel said "Ben sorer umoreh never was and never will be. So why was it written? Drosh vekabel sachar" (learn and receive reward).
These last 3 words (4 in English) provides a whole new outlook on ourselves, on what we should become, and what it is we should avoid becoming.





But back on topic.....................................

I think "Moe" is a great name!

http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/4830/moesmxm8.jpghttp://img483.imageshack.us/img483/8898/moejg7.gif

[Tchocky]

"Learn and receive reward"

Damn, that's enough to convert even me :)

[The Avon Lady]

"Learn and receive reward"
Damn, that's enough to convert even me :)
"On another occasion it happened that a certain heathen came before Shammai and said to him, "Make me a proselyte, on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Thereupon he chased him away with the builder's cubit that was in his hand. When he came before Hillel, <he also asked Hillel to teach him the entire Torah while standing on one foot> Hillel replied, "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor: that is the whole Torah while the rest is commentary; go and learn it."
- Babylonian talmud, Tractate Shabbat, 31a

[Skybird]

Look at the Old Testament -- we are supposed to stone our children if they do not obey us. No one (well, maybe a few people, I really don't know) follows this code. I see this as a direct correlation to the Qu'ran. Or is the section on killing/discriminating against "infidels" a main theme of the Qu'ran? If it really is one of the main themes of Islam, then I guess my friends would be violating the Qu'ran and they are "contradictory" Muslims as you say. But then again, so would the other 500,000,000 Muslims who don't use or condone violence to further their religious goals.

*Edit:* I got the idea that the thread topic is about the PEOPLE who follow Islam, not the ideology.

I brought this up once but I was told that the Old Testament doesn't matter in Christianity. I find this odd because on Sunday mornings our scripture readings seem to cite the OT as frequently as the NT :-?[/quote]
The same stories again and again. Okay, one more time:

The term "Christinaity" necessarily refers to the term "Christ", a title being given to a man who was born not before roughly 2000 years ago. the old testament is much older, and thus must not necessarily seen as part of the christ (who at one occasion said: "I have not come to carry on with the old prophecies, but to fulfill them": fulfillment means that something old comes to an end, and something new is beginning).

There was no Christianity before Jesus, who had been given the title "Christ". But there has been the comntent of the old testament, the prophecies and stories and what it all includes. then there has been the pharisees, and the Jewish tradition. This is the part where I let AL take the lead, she knows more on that tradition than I do.

So you have a turning point in Bible'S history, which is marked by the life of Jesus. With him, a new testament found it's fundemant, or the inspiration of the authors who put it together. The idea of God has chnaged. It is no longer the old revenging, imperially ruling and obedience-demanding vulcan god the old Testemant was about, it is about an idea that Jesus describes in the words of his time and place, thus claling it "Father", but if you read carefully you see that Jesuss was not about pleasing this God by rituals anymore, by living in this or that way: he left the idea of God being an idol only behind and told people that it is a state of mind and peace that will create your heaven (I would say: a state of mental evoultion), and that people themselves need to take respopnesbility for their lifes, their doing and wrong-doings alike. that way, everybody is the reator of his own future. the old testament was about belieivng in an idol. Jersus was about becoming aware the the devine essence and quality of existence is omnipresent and realized in everyone of us, like buddha said that Buddha-nature is to be found in every stone, in every tree, in every man, in every dog.

Tihs understanding of teaching has been kept alive and has been lived by the mionks who we today refer to as the so-called christian mystics. You just need to se ebehgind the surface of the words. If a God or an idol or an idea could be described and caught in words alone - how small in worth, size and value it would be! In fact you can read in the statements of mystics of all traditions and cultures and times, that yoiu cannot put it in words. you can only sa yin words what "it" is NOT. The Jews until today say that the name of God cannot be pronounced. LaoTse said: the One essence that can be known is not the essence of the unknowable, the idea that could be imagined is not the image of the eternal. Moses shattered the golden cow. Jesus said nobody could reach the Father's heaven except through him. do not be mistaken: Jesus did not die in place of your sins: he did what he did to show you the burden you have to poickup yourself, and show you the direction at which you have to search your own way. He told people that they should pickup their own cross and follow him (his example), and leave behind the dead burying their dead (those who insist on sticking to the old misconceptions of what a religious life should be). "Christians" are wrong when assuming that he has taken their personal responsebilities off their shoulders. That is ridiculous, and ifantile fairy-tale-thinking. By thinking that, they are no christians, but the deads who are burying deads, as Jesus put it. Being christian means to live the teachings of Christ. not more, not less. It's an all-or-nothing-at-all affair. No cutting corners, no tricks, no cheats.

The church spreads these queer beliefs nevertheless, and claim it represents "Christianity". but I always make a strict difference between the teachings of Jesus, whcih is my more precise unerstanding of "Chrsistianity", and the church. In order to follow the teachings of Jesus by it's essence, you have to abandon the church's heretical doctrine. It is defending it's own very earthly power interests only, and abuses the example given by Jesus, and distorts him. The church is amongst those traders and money-exchangers that Jesus in one story is said to have thrown out of the temple.

Let's call it "churchism", then and it refers to both the old and new testament, and makes mockery of true Christianity, which I define as being in the followership of the direct, immediate teachings of Jesus the Christ.

the reformation of ancient belief concepts that was introduced by Jesus (as some claim: influenced by the ideas of Siddharta Gautama, whom according to these voices he may have met on travels as far away as into India - mind you that the bible has nothign to say on his first 30 years of life) has no parallel in Islam. but Crhistinaity compares to Buddhism in this detail: Both Jesus and Buddha were up against the orthodoxy of the religious orthodoxies that already were in place: Hinduism with it'S inhumane caste-system , and the wealthy and politically influential pharisees with their many privileges. Both traditions felt - with all right! - threatened by buddha, and Jesus. but when you compare Islam to the church, you necessarily mean an institution that still is very much depending on concepts of the old testament, and the medieval. when you say the church has been once like islam is today, you are right. Point is: even the church has moved beyond the most primitive and brutal fundaments of it's former superstition. But when you compare Islam to christinaity as I understand the term and have defined it here, you will see that you cannot compare it at all, becasue a reformation like Jesus meant for the western tradition never took place in Islam. It is as if Islam has been given an old testament only, but never a new one. more than the church ever has done, Islam persecuted traditions and ideas that were not following the orthodox mainstream. It's most prmising alternative thinkers got wiped off the face of earth, far more consequently and successfully than the church has been. That's why there never was room for such cultural processes of maturing, that is why Islam always referes back to just itself - and this self hasn't chnaged since 1400 years. Muhammad did not wish to raise tolerance for others (whoich could threaten his own power), he wanted to bind all people to him, to accept his command and authority: keeping people in religiously motivated dependance of him.

So now you maybe see why it is no surprise that the law of the old testament is no longer valid for us in the west, but why Sharia is still valid in islam. If you think you can separate Sharia from Islamic identity, then you are wrong again: it is deeply embedded in the heart and core of Islam, being part of the Hadith. Taking the Sharia away from Islam is as if you try to extract the Lord'S Prayer out of christian tradition.

I really cannot see what is so difficult in understanding these things, they are so very obvious. I think you are victims of too well-worn thinking habits that offer you the imagination of security and the advantage of feeling cozy and comfortable. Step beyond that, or you will never become free, no matter what you call your belief.




The One Essence that could be known,
Is not the essence of the Unknowable.
The idea that could be imagined,
Is not the image of the Eternal.
Nameless is the all-One, is inner Essence.
Known by names is the all-Many, is outer form.
Resting without desires, means to reach the invisible inside.
Acting with desires, means to stay by the limited outside.
The all-One and the all-Many are of the same origin,
Different only in appearance and in name.
What they have in common is the wonder of being.
The secret of this wonder
Is the gate to true understanding.

Tao Te King, I
(my own translation)

[Skybird]

Sky, would you prefer it if all people who regard themselves as Muslim followed the Quran and the teachings of Mohammed to the letter, in every possible way?

It sounds like you're cheesed off at their lapsed fanaticism :-?
No.

I would prefer if they stop helping to push the agenda of an extremist, totalitarian and inhumane ideology by maybe not following it, but neverthelss sticking to it, defending it, allowing it to keep on being the basis for "extremists", and the way of thinking to which fanatical violance is no violation, but the direct logical consequence of it. I would prefer if they stop their silent toleranting of all this. I would prefer if they raise their voice against islam's wrongs, and actively defend the vlaues and principals of wetsern culture and nation. If the latter is too much demanded - our nations are supposed to be their homes, if they immigrated here -, then i wonder why the heck they have even come here.

See what I said somewhere above about democartic Nazis, moderate chinese revolutioners, and liberal Stalinists.

Or to put it more simply. I would prefer them to make a clear stand: would they continue to be associated with a brutal, totalitarian ideology, or not? simple question. Can be answered with Yes or No, so simple it is.

[The Avon Lady]

would they continue to be associated with a brutal, totalitarian ideology, or not? simple question. Can be answered with Yes or No, so simple it is.
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?!"
- Winston Churchill

[Skybird]

I said this in another topic - It's just a book, it's how we interpret it that causes all the problems.
Yes, but you have substantially different degrees of freedom of ointerpretation in the two cultures. I can say what I say aboiut the church and christinaity without needing to fear that somebody will come and try to slaughter me. If I were muslim and do like that aboiut Islam, I wpould,live dangerous. I would run the risk of being stoned to death in some countries. And as a german infidel critical of Islam and not hiding that, I was sent mail letters with death threats last year repeatedly. I am part of an initiative that has filed a lawcase against the increasing of a mosque for which the additonal property was bought by illegal means. i wonder what kind of fanpost this will bring me - next monday the first court date (of three) should have been. But this Tuesday, our opponents have completely withdrawn and simply gave up, agreeing on accepting to give up all claims - we have won. The wife of the chairman already got threatened on open street. I currently leave home only armed.

Where are all the moderate Muslim voices speaking out against this, and pulling back those other Muslims that act in their name? I can't hear them, can'T see them, I am not aware of any demonstrations against such acts.

Instead in colgone the raise of a new mosque in a completely misplaced area caused Muslims to become almost hysteric in vowing to defend the building of it with their lifes, if needed.

Instead we have a massive funding fromMuslims countries for "radical" institutions here in the West, many of which need to be under surveillance by polcie or intelligence agencies.

Instead they demand more and more and more.

But what really annoys me(still) is the thought that every Muslim is some kind of bomb making fanatic. I just don't understand people who think like that - sorry
I never said that, and I explicitly have defended muslims from that in the past. Several times I have said now that when attacking Islam, I usually do not target indioviduals, but the ideology itself.

All in all it seems to me that Islam only appears peaceful as long as you do not stand in it's ways and do not object it's neverending claims for more, more, more, and whatever it is: never it is Islam's fault, it always is our fault. It stinks to heaven.

[robbo180265]

I said this in another topic - It's just a book, it's how we interpret it that causes all the problems.
Yes, but you have substantially different degrees of freedom of ointerpretation in the two cultures. I can say what I say aboiut the church and christinaity without needing to fear that somebody will come and try to slaughter me. If I were muslim and do like that aboiut Islam, I wpould,live dangerous. I would run the risk of being stoned to death in some countries. And as a german infidel critical of Islam and not hiding that, I was sent mail letters with death threats last year repeatedly. I am part of an initiative that has filed a lawcase against the increasing of a mosque for which the additonal property was bought by illegal means. i wonder what kind of fanpost this will bring me - Next monday the foirst court date (of three) should have been. This Tuesday, our opponents have completely withdrawn and simply gave up, agreeing on accepting to give up all claims - we have won. The wife of the chairman already got threatened on open street.

Where are all the moderate Muslim voices speaking out against this, and pulling back those other Muslims that act in their name? I can't hear them, can'T see them, I am not aware of any demonstrations against such acts.


Instead in colgone the raise of a new mosque in a completely misplaced area caused Muslims to become almost hysteric in vowing to defend the building of it wioth their lifes, if needed.

Instead they demand more and more and more.

But what really annoys me(still) is the thought that every Muslim is some kind of bomb making fanatic. I just don't understand people who think like that - sorry
I never said that, and I explicitly have defended muslims from that in the past. Several times I have said now that when attacking Islam, I usually do not target indioviduals, but the ideology itself.

I think the point I'm trying (or was trying last night) to make is that the majority of Muslims in this country have become "westernised". They are sensible enough to realise that the Koran is just a book (in much the same way we are with the Bible) and that it was written a long time ago, and that parts of it are no longer followed.

Honestly if you could see the shopkeeper and his wife at the bottom of my road - you'd understand why I think world domination is the furthest thing from most Muslims minds, in this country anyway.

Also with threads like this one on a lot of forums - are you really suprised that we don't hear from more moderate Muslims?

And don't worry Skybird - the last part of my post wasn't aimed at you ;)

[Skybird]

I think the point I'm trying (or was trying last night) to make is that the majority of Muslims in this country have become "westernised".

Really? Let me lead you around a bit in germany, cities like berlin, Frankfort, Köln, and I'll make you change your mind. Social statistics as well as feedback from former colleagues in the cosial sector that I get also raise doubts. Last year, a representative poll in Britain showed that one third of Muslims (maongst the young even more than one half) excuse violance if it helpts to establish Sharia in Egnland make it an Islamic country. The biggest Islamic communitiy in Germany are the Turkish people. turkush nationalism has become a very serious problem in several schools in the metropoles, especially i berlin. Ultra-conservative ideals and decisioons to intentionally not wanting to be like germanys, and seeing oneself as something better than jmust nGermans, are very widespread amongst the youngs. the acceptance of family hopnour murderings are higher than 50% amongst the male teens, and around one third amongst the female teens (a finding from mabye 1.5 years ago, Berlin).

I said in an earlie rposting, that it may be counter-intuiotive: but what we experience is that the offsprings of immigrants often are more radicalised and orthodx in their islamic-being than their parents. This is a serious problem, and makes mockery of our imagnation how integration works. Mind you that the Llondon bombers came from "integrated", "unsuspicious" Muslim family backgrounds. Same in Madrid, if I remember correctly.

westernizing Islam and by that create an "Euro-Islam" is the big hope of the EU-fools in Brussel. It will not become more than just this hope - promised. They are underestimating the immense power of islam, and it's determination not to change itself and resist any opposition. the EU, or the degenerated Western culture with it's soft concepts and weak values is no match for Islam. Our total unability to accept conflict also does not help us a bit in the face of this old warrior's ideology. because that's what it also is: a warrior's and conquestor's ideology.

They are sensible enough to realise that the Koran is just a book (in much the same way we are with the Bible) and that it was written a long time ago, and that parts of it are no longer followed.

See what I said in my reply to Tchocky. I also think you are not aware of how much alive and popular Islmic orthodoxy is. again, I refer to the exmaple of what is happening in turkey. I tell you that in a couple of years Turkey will be a non-secular nation again as long as the military does not step in. I honestly hope it does. Looking at their administrative sector and the national bureaucracy you can already see how "Islamists" already have taken over the offices, women are being pushed back, and traditionally islamic behavior and values have found triumphant entrance into the state's institutions. Attatürk would turn in his grave. But rest assured, europe, the AKP is not running an Islamic agenda, noooo...

Honestly if you could see the shopkeeper and his wife at the bottom of my road - you'd understand why I think world domination is the furthest thing from most Muslims minds, in this country anyway.

I said it several times, I talk about the ideology. and the ideology's position in your or my nation is strengthend by the factor of two just becasue there is that shokeeper and his wife in England, not arabia, and just becaue they do not help to actively hinder the ideology you claim they ignore, but that nevertheless can count on them not to speak out against it.

and i tell you this: most Muslim immigrants/colonists are very happy NOT to integrate and instead live in a subculture of Muslim immigants. these parallel socieites are well established in the major cities, not only in Germany, but France and I tell you: England as well. In Islam, Islam comes first, and nationality is not really important. It has no concept that really compoares to the conception of national states like in the West.

At least you two shopkeepers in your example are passive "Mitläufer" (fellow travelers) if they do not actively stand up against Islam'S wrongs, and still claim they want to be seen as Muslims. Passivity in the face of harm being done is no innocence. I avoid Nazis claiming they are democartzic. I also avoid muslims who claim to be western-style - and do not separate themselves from Islam. On the other hand, repeatedly I was successful in talking former Muslims into apostacy, despite the obstabcles and serious pöeronal sufferings that caused for them with their families. They all had in common a healthy level of intelligence, and curiosity. I would say that islam is stupid, and educates people to be stupid (all religious extremes do that). that does not mean that all Arabs or Turks are stupid by birth. Again the difference: individual people, and ideology. Why should I accept thr spüreading or indirect suport and toleratin for such an ideology: that educates for stupidity, intolerance, totalitarian control? should we rewrite the hsitoy of the Nazis and make them appear acceptable because many of them had very stylish manners?

Also with threads like this one on a lot of forums - are you really suprised that we don't hear from more moderate Muslims?

so we should remain silent, and then they would all of a sudden step forward and do what I demand them to do? you and me live on different planets. why should Islam chnage and rethink itself - if people like you always are willing not to confront it, not to challenge it, not to remind it of what is going wrong with it? You teach them only one lesson that way: that they can get away with not changing and rethinking themselves at all. Why should they?

This policy has been followed FOR DECADES - see where it has led us - it led us to today's status.

[robbo180265]

Also with threads like this one on a lot of forums - are you really suprised that we don't hear from more moderate Muslims?

so we should remain silent, and then they would all of a sudden step forward and do what I demand them to do? you and me live on different planets. why should Islam chnage and rethink itself - if people like you always are willing not to confront it, not to challenge it, not to remind it of what is going wrong with it? You teach them only one lesson that way: that they can get away with not changing and rethinking themselves at all. Why should they?

This policy has been followed FOR DECADES - see where it has led us - it led us to today's status.

On the whole from what I read in your post, I think that our countries are very different and perhaps our Muslims are. I have many Muslim friends who are as English as I am but follow Islam. They have no intention of taking over the world, and have never tried to force their religion on me(unlike some Christians -I'm Pagan by the way)I think that we could argue till we're blue in the face and it wont change a thing. Maybe German Muslims are hell bent on global domination, after all it wasn't that long ago that German Christians were was it?;)

As for the last part of your post, I refer you to the original title and first post of this thread



http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/icons/icon1.gif Muhammad is No 2 in boy's names
I guess we're looking at a future London-Abad.

Muhammad is now second only to Jack as the most popular name for baby boys in Britain and is likely to rise to No 1 by next year, a study by The Times has found. The name, if all 14 different spellings are included, was shared by 5,991 newborn boys last year, beating Thomas into third place, followed by Joshua and Oliver.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1890354.ece



If I was a Muslim and I read that I'd be angry,hurt and marginalized.I wouldn't want to be a part of any forum that condoned such obvious Islamaphobia,and I'd be off.

Gotta go to work now - someone else take over:D

[The Avon Lady]

If I was a Muslim and I read that I'd be angry.I wouldn't want to be a part of any forum that condoned such obvious Islamaphobia,and I'd be off.

Gotta go to work now - someone else take over:D
Islamophobia? Not so fast (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014986.php).

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle.”

Qur’an 87:10 “He who fears will mind.”

Qur’an 9:53 “Say: ‘Pay your contribution for the Cause willingly or unwillingly.’”

Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.”

Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”

Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends.”

The word "Islamophobia" is a scare-word like "racism." By now, it shouldn't scare, or distract, or fool anyone but those who want to be scared or fooled into silence.

[robbo180265]

If I was a Muslim and I read that I'd be angry.I wouldn't want to be a part of any forum that condoned such obvious Islamaphobia,and I'd be off.

Gotta go to work now - someone else take over:D
Islamophobia? Not so fast (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014986.php).

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle.”

Qur’an 87:10 “He who fears will mind.”

Qur’an 9:53 “Say: ‘Pay your contribution for the Cause willingly or unwillingly.’”

Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.”

Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”

Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends.”

The word "Islamophobia" is a scare-word like "racism." By now, it shouldn't scare, or distract, or fool anyone but those who want to be scared or fooled into silence.

I could go through the Bible and find various quotes about stoning people, sacrificing people etc, but I don't have time - I really rather think that you're missing my point A/L

I really have to go to work now - byeeeee:D

[Rose]

If I was a Muslim and I read that I'd be angry.I wouldn't want to be a part of any forum that condoned such obvious Islamaphobia,and I'd be off.

Gotta go to work now - someone else take over:D
Islamophobia? Not so fast (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014986.php).

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle.”

Qur’an 87:10 “He who fears will mind.”

Qur’an 9:53 “Say: ‘Pay your contribution for the Cause willingly or unwillingly.’”

Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.”

Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”

Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends.”

The word "Islamophobia" is a scare-word like "racism." By now, it shouldn't scare, or distract, or fool anyone but those who want to be scared or fooled into silence.

Ok, but relatively few Muslims in the grand scheme of things actually adhere to those "rules." I am only talking about Muslim PEOPLE. The ideology is a completely different issue. Not all Muslim people stricly adhere to 100% of the ideology. I have Muslim friends who drink, and none of them I know actually get up at 5 in the morning to pray, much less start jihads.

[robbo180265]

If I was a Muslim and I read that I'd be angry.I wouldn't want to be a part of any forum that condoned such obvious Islamaphobia,and I'd be off.

Gotta go to work now - someone else take over:D
Islamophobia? Not so fast (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014986.php).

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle.”

Qur’an 87:10 “He who fears will mind.”

Qur’an 9:53 “Say: ‘Pay your contribution for the Cause willingly or unwillingly.’”

Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.”

Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”

Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends.”

The word "Islamophobia" is a scare-word like "racism." By now, it shouldn't scare, or distract, or fool anyone but those who want to be scared or fooled into silence.

Ok, but relatively few Muslims in the grand scheme of things actually adhere to those "rules." I am only talking about Muslim PEOPLE. The ideology is a completely different issue. Not all Muslim people stricly adhere to 100% of the ideology.

Hurrrah !

[The Avon Lady]

If I was a Muslim and I read that I'd be angry.I wouldn't want to be a part of any forum that condoned such obvious Islamaphobia,and I'd be off.

Gotta go to work now - someone else take over:D
Islamophobia? Not so fast (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014986.php).

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle.”

Qur’an 87:10 “He who fears will mind.”

Qur’an 9:53 “Say: ‘Pay your contribution for the Cause willingly or unwillingly.’”

Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.”

Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”

Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends.”

The word "Islamophobia" is a scare-word like "racism." By now, it shouldn't scare, or distract, or fool anyone but those who want to be scared or fooled into silence.
Ok, but relatively few Muslims in the grand scheme of things actually adhere to those "rules."
Quantify "relatively few".

Quantify it for N. America. Recent hint (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/016565.php).

Quantify it for Europe.

Quantify it for Australia.

Quantify it for Africa.

Quantify it for Asia.

Quantify it for the Mideast.

Sources, please. Here's a very raw list (http://www.jihadwatch.org/cgi-bin/mt-search.cgi?IncludeBlogs=1&search=tiny+minority) from me. Please, by all means, disprove them.
I am only talking about Muslim PEOPLE. The ideology is a completely different issue. Not all Muslim people stricly adhere to 100% of the ideology.
How can you detect which is which and whom is whom. Is there a litmus test for this?
I have Muslim friends who drink, and none of them I know actually get up at 5 in the morning to pray, much less start jihads.
We Infidels have no sure way to distinguish the real from the feigning "moderate" Muslim. We cannot spend our time trying to perfect methods to make such distinctions. Furthermore, in the end such distinctions may be meaningless if even the "real" moderates hide from us what Islam is all about, not out of any deeply-felt sinister motive, but out of a humanly-understandable ignorance (especially among some second or third-generation Muslims in the West - your friends, for example), or embarrassment, or filial piety. And finally, yesterday's "moderate" can overnight be transformed into today's fanatic - or tomorrow's - and this has happened too many times already.
Hurrrah !
A pompous death knell. Go down with your ship. Others will travel on to return to terra firma.

[Letum]

I am only talking about Muslim PEOPLE. The ideology is a completely different issue. Not all Muslim people stricly adhere to 100% of the ideology. How can you detect which is which and whom is whom. Is there a litmus test for this?
I have Muslim friends who drink, and none of them I know actually get up at 5 in the morning to pray, much less start jihads. We Infidels have no sure way to distinguish the real from the feigning "moderate" Muslim. We cannot spend our time trying to perfect methods to make such distinctions. Furthermore, in the end such distinctions may be meaningless if even the "real" moderates hide from us what Islam is all about, not out of any deeply-felt sinister motive, but out of a humanly-understandable ignorance (especially among some second or third-generation Muslims in the West - your friends, for example), or embarrassment, or filial piety. And finally, yesterday's "moderate" can overnight be transformed into today's fanatic - or tomorrow's - and this has happened too many times already.

Are you saying we should treat all Muslims the same as extremists?!?! :doh:

[Oberon]

IIRC, the prevailing wind here is to kill all Muslims and destroy Islam.

Though I may be wrong...I just watch which way the wind is blowing. ;)

[Skybird]

It seems that some minds have an in-built spring that makes sure they always switch back to the same old track of saying "not all muslims are bomb-laying extremists" and "Islam's history compares to Christianity's history". And after reaching that default setting, no further examination is spend on it.

Sounds like a kitchen timer to me: it's always only a question of time until the Zero is reached again and the bell is ringing.

Guys, some of you are on their way to well-meaning themselves to death - and everything around you as well. But there will be a point of time beyond which it simply is too late and Islams demographic offensive has won a self-dynamic that can no longer be stopped. From that time on, the annihilation of european history, identity and cultural values and self-percpetion can no longer be prevented. And I think that some of you already have lost any sense of identity anyway. He who does not know who he is, and where he has come from, has no identity to defend - and thus hasn't anything to defend at all. He does not see the good things his ancestors have created, and that may be worth to be preserved and defended, maybe becasue he just take them as granted like the air he breathes. He's just a fallen, powerless leaf with which the wind is playing. Such a being is easy prey, such a "civilisation" is not strong but doomed to be a victim.

I fail to see the virtue or attraction in that. Probbaly this time - in the third serious attempt - Islam will take Europe. but if it going that way, I prefer to fall while fighting, not cowardly falling back step by step, falling back, falling back step by step by step...

Maybe that will not save my culture, which tries so hard to destroy itself anyway even without being under siege by Islam. But making my stand and fight against Islam were it is in my reach will save my dignity and self-respect. If I wouldn't do that I must assume that I would have passively accepted the reign of the Nazis, too, if I would have been doomed to live in that time.

And that assumption is more than I wish to bear.

[Letum]

But making my stand and fight against Islam were it is in my reach

Fight against Islam!?!

Bloody hell SB!
To what ends do you wish to "fight Islam"? To the ends of it's destruction?
That's nothing short of genocide!
When you come across peaceful Muslims what form does you "fight against Islam" take?

I'm all for defending against attacks by anyone, but fighting against an entire religion.....well, that has got something of the 1940s about it. :shifty:

If I wouldn't do that I must assume that I would have passively accepted the reign of the Nazis

Would you still be so troubled by that thought if the Nazis had called for a fight against Islam instead of Judaism?

[Rose]

Wait a second... Did you just compare the Islam to the Nazis? :nope:

[bradclark1]

Well Waste-Gate looks like your threads been hijacked by the muslim crowd. You're off the hook. :lol:

[waste gate]

Well Waste-Gate looks like your threads been hijacked by the muslim crowd. You're off the hook. :lol:

I think they tried to put me on a meat hook last evening but I didn't give them what they wanted. So now they are off after more easy prey, I guess.

I love this board! Poke a stick in the collective and.............

[Letum]

Well Waste-Gate looks like your threads been hijacked by the muslim crowd. You're off the hook. :lol:
I think they tried to put me on a meat hook last evening but I didn't give them what they wanted.


:doh::huh: What did "we want" ?

[waste gate]

Well Waste-Gate looks like your threads been hijacked by the muslim crowd. You're off the hook. :lol:
I think they tried to put me on a meat hook last evening but I didn't give them what they wanted.


:doh::huh: What did "we want" ?

You wanted from me what skybird gave you. But since I'm not him I couldn't give it you ya'll.

[Rose]

Well Waste-Gate looks like your threads been hijacked by the muslim crowd. You're off the hook. :lol:
I think they tried to put me on a meat hook last evening but I didn't give them what they wanted.


:doh::huh: What did "we want" ?

You wanted from me what skybird gave you. But since I'm not him I couldn't give it you ya'll.

I didn't want that... what are you talking about?

If by "it" you mean a 5 dollar toothless Viet-Cong hooker, I don't need any more of those. But maybe Letum or Robbo wants one. You'll have to ask them.

Or, if by "it" you mean an argument, I wasn't aiming for that either. I am terribly inarticulate and I am the last person you want on the debate team.

[Gizzmoe]

Wait a second... Did you just compare the Islam to the Nazis? :nope:
Skybird is known for such comparisons.

Skybird, I must ask you to take your crusade against Islam somewhere else, or at least tone it down a lot. Well, I´m not actually asking you, I´m telling you. As a moderator and editor of this forum I am no longer willing to tolerate your repeated rants against Islam, this goes on far too long already. If you wanna complain about this, contact Neal.

Thread closed.